On 2/9/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>>>>>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>>>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>>>>>>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>>>>>>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>>>>>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>>>>>>>>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>>>>>>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>>>>>>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>>>>>>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>>>>>>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>>>>>>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>>>>>>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>>>>>>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>>>>>>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
>>>>>> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged.
>>>> Wrong yet again, Tom!
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, I knew about the Girandoni for years. I've long been a Lewis &
>>>> Clark fan. (That's why we followed most of their route when we rode
>>>> coast to coast.) I've got Ambrose's _Undaunted Courage_ (and several
>>>> other relevant books) on the shelf just behind me. The rifle was
>>>> described in many of those.
>>>>
>>>> But I learned finer details of the Girandoni just a few weeks ago, when
>>>> a good friend asked me to consult on his purchase of an air rifle. One
>>>> conversation led to another, and I eventually read up on the Girandoni
>>>> mechanism and operation.
>>>>
>>>> See, I tend to read and research. You tend to spout whatever nonsense
>>>> first pops into your mind.
>>>>
>>>> Education. It's amazingly useful! Try it!
>>>
>>> Tell me about this ultra-vast education of yours Frank. According to the citation of Jeff you had to have a large wheel drawn air pump to charge that air gun. Explain to us how they carried a wheeled horse drawn air pump on the terrain they covered? How did they carry it on the Canoe's they were forced to use for river crossings? Is there one thing in your head except hate and envy for me for being successful while you made a failing grade?
>> SMH
>
> I know that you know little to nothing about the history of the United States but the Lewis and Clark Expedition traveled almost entirely by river making the carrying of a heavy wheeled pump for charging mechanism very difficult in the early part of the trip up the Missouri River difficult and the later parts on the later parts past Fort Mandan impossible. When you don't know about things why are you continuously attempting to act like you do?
>

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:03:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li....@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> >>>>>>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> >>>>>>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> >>>>>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> >>>>>>>>>>>> pistol.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> >>>>>>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
> >>>>>>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
> >>>>>>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
> >>>>>>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
> >>>>>>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
> >>>>>>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
> >>>>>>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
> >>>>>>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
> >>>>>> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged.
> >>>> Wrong yet again, Tom!
> >>>>
> >>>> FWIW, I knew about the Girandoni for years. I've long been a Lewis &
> >>>> Clark fan. (That's why we followed most of their route when we rode
> >>>> coast to coast.) I've got Ambrose's _Undaunted Courage_ (and several
> >>>> other relevant books) on the shelf just behind me. The rifle was
> >>>> described in many of those.
> >>>>
> >>>> But I learned finer details of the Girandoni just a few weeks ago, when
> >>>> a good friend asked me to consult on his purchase of an air rifle. One
> >>>> conversation led to another, and I eventually read up on the Girandoni
> >>>> mechanism and operation.
> >>>>
> >>>> See, I tend to read and research. You tend to spout whatever nonsense
> >>>> first pops into your mind.
> >>>>
> >>>> Education. It's amazingly useful! Try it!
> >>>
> >>> Tell me about this ultra-vast education of yours Frank. According to the citation of Jeff you had to have a large wheel drawn air pump to charge that air gun. Explain to us how they carried a wheeled horse drawn air pump on the terrain they covered? How did they carry it on the Canoe's they were forced to use for river crossings? Is there one thing in your head except hate and envy for me for being successful while you made a failing grade?
> >> SMH
> >
> > I know that you know little to nothing about the history of the United States but the Lewis and Clark Expedition traveled almost entirely by river making the carrying of a heavy wheeled pump for charging mechanism very difficult in the early part of the trip up the Missouri River difficult and the later parts on the later parts past Fort Mandan impossible. When you don't know about things why are you continuously attempting to act like you do?
> >
> I don't know but their various journals and correspondence
> are published*. I have not read them but this is a knowable
> thing; one need not guess.
>
>
> https://lewisandclarkjournals.unl.edu/item/lc.jrn.introduction.general
>
> *There are gaps, but still a huge amount of detailed material.

On 2/9/2022 4:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:03:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/9/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

snippity snip snip snip

> "... needs a piece of paper saying that he is intelligent to qualify as competent."
>

That reminds me of a great bicycle story.

I was great friends with Angel Rodriguez for many years. A
Certain Person, a minor Midwest framebuilder of no great
success, walked in, touting his 'Framebuilder Certification'
program with certificate - at a fee. Angel, who was the 3d
largest tandem builder then, with a long waiting list for
his beautiful (& expensive) tandems, bit his lip, opened the
cash register, threw several over-$1000 checks on the photo
copier, handed the copy to that gentleman and said "Here's
my certificate. You can leave now."

Oh, how I miss that man. He's moved to Panama.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 09 Feb 2022 07:44:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/8/2022 8:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result
>>>>>>>>>> in a search:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the
>>>>>>>> way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it
>>>>>>>> closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the
>>>>>>>> correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer
>>>>>>>> and the spring that drives it have to be carefully
>>>>>>>> calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire
>>>>>>>> reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles
>>>>>>>> most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But
>>>>>>>> either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly
>>>>>>>> how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the
>>>>>>>> internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if
>>>>>>>> you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far
>>>>>>>> the striker can't release all the air and velocity
>>>>>>>> starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the
>>>>>>>> inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working
>>>>>>>> principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve
>>>>>>>> itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s
>>>>>>>> although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the
>>>>>>>> earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit
>>>>>>>> earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman,
>>>>>>>> Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read
>>>>>>>> about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their
>>>>>>> expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations
>>>>>>> before each new
>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it
>>>>>>> was quite
>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the
>>>>>>> Indians were familiar
>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or
>>>>>>> so. It generated a
>>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried
>>>>>> twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled
>>>>>> shooter could fire
>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot
>>>>>> from this air gun
>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred
>>>>>> paces, an
>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45
>>>>>> ACP caliber
>>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of
>>>>>> the times could
>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder
>>>>> for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of
>>>>> reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary
>>>>> machine to reload the air gun with compressed air?
>>>>> Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded
>>>>> individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask
>>>>> of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>>>
>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree
>>>> by some European
>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring
>>>> an unusually
>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>>
>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled
>>> technician. Remember
>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>>
>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in
>> its operation. My understanding is that the valving in those
>> early air rifles was much more complex than a flintlock,
>> much less easy for men of the time to understand, and
>> probably difficult to work on.
>>
>
>I'm not an expert but open-pan black powder presents issues
>of moisture, misfires and slow arduous reloading procedures.
>The whole area, like human innovation generally, shows
>constant improvement, creativity and technical rigor. The
>fact that some innovations are ultimately failures
>(pneumatic bicycle gear shift, centrifugal automatic gear
>shift, etc) doesn't stop innovation.

Certainly. Firearm ignition systems started with fire on a stick - and
went through a whole series of improvements over a period of
(probably) 6 or 700 years.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:53:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/8/2022 10:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:59:31 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
>>> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
>>
>> Try 1780 instead.
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=girandoni+air+rifle+1780&tbm=isch>
>>
>>> (who knew?
>>
>> Google knew but I didn't.
>>
>>> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
>>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>>
>> Some videos on how it works:
>> <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Girandoni+Air+Rifle>
>>
>> "Girardoni Air Gun (original 1780 example)" (11:29 min)
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dZLeEUE940>
>>
>> How it works:
>> "Girandoni style pneumatic rifle c.1780, Vienna"
>> <https://imgur.com/gallery/yAktn>
>>
>> Lots of interesting stuff here:
>> "Austrian Large Bore Airguns"
>> <http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm>
>> 20 or 22 shot speedloader or gravity feed on the military version.
>> This might be a clue why they did not replace black powder:
>>
>> "The system really was more suited to hunters who do not fire so many
>> shots as a soldier, who can have the air reservoirs pumped up at
>> leisure - even by a servant, and whose lives generally do not depend
>> on the gun."
>>
>> "A fully loaded Girandoni kit had eighty more of those large caliber
>> balls ready for rapid action! In typical military use, discharged, or
>> partially discharged, air cylinders would be exchanged for fresh full
>> ones by runners going back and forth to stationary wheel pumps or
>> special two axle wagons designed to carry up to 1000 pre-charged air
>> cylinders, both positioned behind the combat lines. Certainly the
>> soldiers were not going to fully pump up their three cylinders in
>> regular use as this would require about 4500 strokes with the hand
>> pump! Even a single cylinder could have taken a half hour of hard
>> pumping action! But the long slim pump, designed almost without dead
>> space would be useful in topping off high pressure in partially
>> expended cylinders."
>>
>> I read this as 1500 strokes to fill one cylinder.
>>
>> Also note the number of intricate parts needed. Eli Whitney didn't
>> make muskets with interchangeable parts until 1798, so I would guess
>> that each Girandoni rifle was hand crafted and assembled individually.
>>
>> Does this research and guesswork compensate for my mistakes earlier in
>> this thread?
>
>Yes, well done.
>
>And a comment on Human Factors: There was probably no technical need to
>make the gun look so much like a flintlock, or to have a fake "cock" or
>flint holder swinging forward and down. But if soldiers were used to
>flintlocks, that feature of the air rifle probably aided training.

Or, maybe, the duck identification system - if it looks like a duck,
waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck.

If it looks like a gun then it probably is a gun... (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 09:06:09 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>> >>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> >>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>> >>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>> >>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>> >>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>> >>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>> >>>>> lot of respect.
>> >>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> >>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> >>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> >>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>> >>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>> >>>> pistol.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> >>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> John B.
>> >>>
>> >>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>> >>
>> >> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>> >> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>> >> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>> >
>> > Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>> > that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>
>Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.

There you go Tommy, using all those strange and wonderful words that
you don't really understand. A "cap lock" firearm uses a small brass
"cap" vaguely like the cap in a kid's cap pistol, that fitted on a
"nipple" and when struck by the hammer explodes and set off the main
charge in the barrel. See https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/Caplock
first picture in second row.

As an aside, it made revolvers practical for the first time.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:53:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>https://www.google.com/search?q=girandoni+air+rifle+1780&tbm=isch

Her is a moving picture of a girandoni's action while the hammer isn't
critical to the action it does provide a means of tensioning the
spring that operated the air valve.
https://imgur.com/gallery/yAktn
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 12:39:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/9/2022 11:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/9/2022 10:53 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/8/2022 10:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "A fully loaded Girandoni kit had eighty more of those
>>>> large caliber
>>>> balls ready for rapid action! In typical military use,
>>>> discharged, or
>>>> partially discharged, air cylinders would be exchanged for
>>>> fresh full
>>>> ones by runners going back and forth to stationary wheel
>>>> pumps or
>>>> special two axle wagons designed to carry up to 1000
>>>> pre-charged air
>>>> cylinders, both positioned behind the combat lines.
>>>> Certainly the
>>>> soldiers were not going to fully pump up their three
>>>> cylinders in
>>>> regular use as this would require about 4500 strokes with
>>>> the hand
>>>> pump! Even a single cylinder could have taken a half hour
>>>> of hard
>>>> pumping action! But the long slim pump, designed almost
>>>> without dead
>>>> space would be useful in topping off high pressure in
>>>> partially
>>>> expended cylinders."
>>>>
>>>> I read this as 1500 strokes to fill one cylinder.
>>>>
>>>> Also note the number of intricate parts needed.  Eli
>>>> Whitney didn't
>>>> make muskets with interchangeable parts until 1798, so I
>>>> would guess
>>>> that each Girandoni rifle was hand crafted and assembled
>>>> individually.
>>>>
>>>> Does this research and guesswork compensate for my
>>>> mistakes earlier in
>>>> this thread?
>>>
>>> Yes, well done.
>>>
>>> And a comment on Human Factors: There was probably no
>>> technical need to make the gun look so much like a
>>> flintlock, or to have a fake "cock" or flint holder swinging
>>> forward and down. But if soldiers were used to flintlocks,
>>> that feature of the air rifle probably aided training.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> A good point to stop and reflect on the 'weird but powerful' effect of
>> Fashion.
>
>I'd argue that's not fashion. That's human factors design, acknowledging
>the influence of prior experience by the operator. Especially in a
>combat or other emergency situation, you'd want to minimize the chance
>that a highly stressed operator would forget what to do. You'd want his
>prior reflexes to remain valid.
>
>Here's a possible analogy: Automatic transmission cars still tend to
>have the brake pedal right next to the gas pedal (or, um, "go" pedal,
>thinking of electric cars). And I think most drivers still brake with
>their right foot while the left foot lays idle.
>
>So why did the very first automatic transmission cars not move the brake
>pedal to far left, for left foot braking? Probably because motorists'
>reflexes would have mashed it to the floor (trying to de-clutch) as they
>approached a stop sign. (Confession: I made that mistake once, long ago,
>while chauffeuring my mother in her car.)
>
>I'd bet Girandoni thought the same way: "Keep it familiar." But I admit,
>it's also possible that during the design phase, Girandoni himself was
>biased toward what was familiar, and may never have considered an
>alternative.

More girandoni (:-)
https://www.guns.com/news/2011/03/15/the-girandoni-air-rifle-deadly-under-pressure
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:03:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> >
> > I know that you know little to nothing about the history of the United States but the Lewis and Clark Expedition traveled almost entirely by river making the carrying of a heavy wheeled pump for charging mechanism very difficult in the early part of the trip up the Missouri River difficult and the later parts on the later parts past Fort Mandan impossible. When you don't know about things why are you continuously attempting to act like you do?
> >
> I don't know but their various journals and correspondence
> are published*. I have not read them but this is a knowable
> thing; one need not guess.
>
>
> https://lewisandclarkjournals.unl.edu/item/lc.jrn.introduction.general
>
> *There are gaps, but still a huge amount of detailed material.

I've read a LOT of the Lewis & Clark journals.

Tom is just not worth responding to.

- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 14:11:11 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:03:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/9/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pistol.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>> >>>>>>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>> >>>>>>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>> >>>>>>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>> >>>>>>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>> >>>>>>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>> >>>>>>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>> >>>>>>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
>> >>>>>> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged.
>> >>>> Wrong yet again, Tom!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> FWIW, I knew about the Girandoni for years. I've long been a Lewis &
>> >>>> Clark fan. (That's why we followed most of their route when we rode
>> >>>> coast to coast.) I've got Ambrose's _Undaunted Courage_ (and several
>> >>>> other relevant books) on the shelf just behind me. The rifle was
>> >>>> described in many of those.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But I learned finer details of the Girandoni just a few weeks ago, when
>> >>>> a good friend asked me to consult on his purchase of an air rifle. One
>> >>>> conversation led to another, and I eventually read up on the Girandoni
>> >>>> mechanism and operation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> See, I tend to read and research. You tend to spout whatever nonsense
>> >>>> first pops into your mind.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Education. It's amazingly useful! Try it!
>> >>>
>> >>> Tell me about this ultra-vast education of yours Frank. According to the citation of Jeff you had to have a large wheel drawn air pump to charge that air gun. Explain to us how they carried a wheeled horse drawn air pump on the terrain they covered? How did they carry it on the Canoe's they were forced to use for river crossings? Is there one thing in your head except hate and envy for me for being successful while you made a failing grade?
>> >> SMH
>> >
>> > I know that you know little to nothing about the history of the United States but the Lewis and Clark Expedition traveled almost entirely by river making the carrying of a heavy wheeled pump for charging mechanism very difficult in the early part of the trip up the Missouri River difficult and the later parts on the later parts past Fort Mandan impossible. When you don't know about things why are you continuously attempting to act like you do?
>> >
>> I don't know but their various journals and correspondence
>> are published*. I have not read them but this is a knowable
>> thing; one need not guess.
>>
>>
>> https://lewisandclarkjournals.unl.edu/item/lc.jrn.introduction.general
>>
>> *There are gaps, but still a huge amount of detailed material.
>
>You do realize that Frank considers Lewis and Clark stupid bumbling idiots because they didn't have college educations. Simply being able to do it is not a sign of intelligence to Frank. He needs a piece of paper saying that he is intelligent to qualify as competent.

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 7:34:13 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Feb 2022 06:15:51 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:36:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> ><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 12:59:38 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 2/8/2022 1:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> > On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>> >> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>> >>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> >>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >>> >>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>> >>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> >>> >>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> >>> >>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> >>> >>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> >>> >>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> >>> >>> lot of respect.
> >>> >> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> >>> >> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> >>> >> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> >>> >> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> >>> >> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> >>> >> pistol.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> >>> >> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --
> >>> >> Cheers,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> John B.
> >>> >
> >>> > Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
> >>> >
> >>> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
> >>> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
> >>> (who knew?
> >>>
> >>> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
> >>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
> >>
> >>They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure. Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.
> >
> >Well, the Girandoni air gun was in use by the Austrian Army for
> >something like 50 years, albeit for some years as a sniper's weapon.
> The blasted spelling checker failed again and the "50" above should
> have been spelled "35" (:-)
>
> In contrast the U.S. M14 rifle seems to have been the standard U.S.
> Infantry rifle from 1959 until 1964
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Regarding the M14, its time as the only or main battle rifle was brief as you state. But it continued as a sniper rifle and in other aspects up until today I believe. Such as in parades when soldiers march in uniform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 11:32:43 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > >>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> > >>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> > >>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> > >>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> > >>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> > >>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> > >>>>>>> lot of respect.
> > >>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> > >>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> > >>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> > >>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> > >>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> > >>>>>> pistol.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> > >>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> John B.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter..
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
> > >>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
> > >>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
> > >>>
> > >>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
> > >>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
> > >> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
> > >> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
> > >> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
> > >> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
> > >
> > > Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
> > <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
> And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged. Tell me Frank. Why do you make comments when you haven't even a clue what this was all about.
> "supported by wheeled air pumps and wagons of pre-charged air bottles. These air guns easily were put of service and needed constant and expert tending. A Girandoni air rifle was predestined to give inexperienced users trouble and charging with individual hand pumps was punishing to the user. The dependability of the gun for lethal combat, under field conditions, especially without the backup of dozens of other airguns, was not high."
> Tell is all how the Lewis and Clark expedition moved wheeled air pumps along waterways with boats often no bigger than Indian canoes? When you are ignorant perhaps your (sigh)ing simply shows your ignorance.

"Hand-operated air pumps (it took some 1,500 strokes to fill each air canister) were issued one per two riflemen with additional large scale, wheeled air-pumping carts placed behind the lines."
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/

Above is a quote from Andy's link about the air rifle used on the Lewis Clark expedition. Anyone with any common sense or intelligence at all, (not you), would guess the Lewis Clark expedition carried along one of the hand operated air pumps. And it was laboriously charged in the evening after supper. Lewis Clark did not use the wheeled air pumps on their expedition. The wheeled air pumps were only used at forts or in battles with a large number of extra personnel in the caravans that accompanied the soldiers in battle. Just like every fighting army today has lots of extra staff driving trucks with supplies and cooking meals behind the fighting lines.

Tommy, I know the answer to this question, but, do you ever think at all?

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 20:19:19 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 7:34:13 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Feb 2022 06:15:51 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:36:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> ><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 12:59:38 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>> On 2/8/2022 1:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>> > On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>> >> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> >>> >>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>> >>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>> >>> >>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> >>> >>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>> >>> >>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>> >>> >>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>> >>> >>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>> >>> >>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>> >>> >>> lot of respect.
>> >>> >> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> >>> >> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> >>> >> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> >>> >> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>> >>> >> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>> >>> >> pistol.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> >>> >> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> --
>> >>> >> Cheers,
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> John B.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>> >>> >
>> >>> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
>> >>> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
>> >>> (who knew?
>> >>>
>> >>> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
>> >>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>> >>
>> >>They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure. Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.
>> >
>> >Well, the Girandoni air gun was in use by the Austrian Army for
>> >something like 50 years, albeit for some years as a sniper's weapon.
>> The blasted spelling checker failed again and the "50" above should
>> have been spelled "35" (:-)
>>
>> In contrast the U.S. M14 rifle seems to have been the standard U.S.
>> Infantry rifle from 1959 until 1964
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Regarding the M14, its time as the only or main battle rifle was brief as you state. But it continued as a sniper rifle and in other aspects up until today I believe. Such as in parades when soldiers march in uniform.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle

True, although I suspect that snipers are using something a bit more
sophisticated these days, at least the one's making the "long shots"
see https://largest.org/people/sniper-shots-ever/
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 20:35:57 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 11:32:43 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > >>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> > >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > >>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> > >>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> > >>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>> > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> > >>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>> > >>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>> > >>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>> > >>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>> > >>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>> > >>>>>>> lot of respect.
>> > >>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> > >>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> > >>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> > >>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>> > >>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>> > >>>>>> pistol.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> > >>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> --
>> > >>>>>> Cheers,
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> John B.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>> > >>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>> > >>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>> > >>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>> > >> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>> > >> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>> > >> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>> > >> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>> > >
>> > > Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
>> > <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
>> And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged. Tell me Frank. Why do you make comments when you haven't even a clue what this was all about.
>> "supported by wheeled air pumps and wagons of pre-charged air bottles. These air guns easily were put of service and needed constant and expert tending. A Girandoni air rifle was predestined to give inexperienced users trouble and charging with individual hand pumps was punishing to the user. The dependability of the gun for lethal combat, under field conditions, especially without the backup of dozens of other airguns, was not high."
>> Tell is all how the Lewis and Clark expedition moved wheeled air pumps along waterways with boats often no bigger than Indian canoes? When you are ignorant perhaps your (sigh)ing simply shows your ignorance.
>
>"Hand-operated air pumps (it took some 1,500 strokes to fill each air canister) were issued one per two riflemen with additional large scale, wheeled air-pumping carts placed behind the lines."
>https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>
>Above is a quote from Andy's link about the air rifle used on the Lewis Clark expedition. Anyone with any common sense or intelligence at all, (not you), would guess the Lewis Clark expedition carried along one of the hand operated air pumps. And it was laboriously charged in the evening after supper. Lewis Clark did not use the wheeled air pumps on their expedition. The wheeled air pumps were only used at forts or in battles with a large number of extra personnel in the caravans that accompanied the soldiers in battle. Just like every fighting army today has lots of extra staff driving trucks with supplies and cooking meals behind the fighting lines.
>
>Tommy, I know the answer to this question, but, do you ever think at all?

It might be that the Air Gun was the most effective weapon that the
expedition carried as while I can't find a specific statement that the
Girandoni was rifled certainly it was retained for snipers after being
withdrawn from general use by the Austrian Army and as far as can be
determined the Expedition was armed probably armed with something
similar to the 1803 contract rifles with a shortened .54 cal. barrel.
Which, as a battle weapon, would have had a far slower rate of fire
then the Air Gun.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 11:32:43 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > >>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > >>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> > > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> > > >>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> > > >>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> > > >>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> > > >>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> > > >>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> > > >>>>>>> lot of respect.
> > > >>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> > > >>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> > > >>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> > > >>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> > > >>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> > > >>>>>> pistol.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> > > >>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> John B.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
> > > >>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
> > > >>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
> > > >>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
> > > >> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
> > > >> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
> > > >> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
> > > >> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
> > > >
> > > > Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
> > > <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
> > And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged. Tell me Frank. Why do you make comments when you haven't even a clue what this was all about.
> > "supported by wheeled air pumps and wagons of pre-charged air bottles. These air guns easily were put of service and needed constant and expert tending. A Girandoni air rifle was predestined to give inexperienced users trouble and charging with individual hand pumps was punishing to the user. The dependability of the gun for lethal combat, under field conditions, especially without the backup of dozens of other airguns, was not high."
> > Tell is all how the Lewis and Clark expedition moved wheeled air pumps along waterways with boats often no bigger than Indian canoes? When you are ignorant perhaps your (sigh)ing simply shows your ignorance.
> "Hand-operated air pumps (it took some 1,500 strokes to fill each air canister) were issued one per two riflemen with additional large scale, wheeled air-pumping carts placed behind the lines."
> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>
> Above is a quote from Andy's link about the air rifle used on the Lewis Clark expedition. Anyone with any common sense or intelligence at all, (not you), would guess the Lewis Clark expedition carried along one of the hand operated air pumps. And it was laboriously charged in the evening after supper. Lewis Clark did not use the wheeled air pumps on their expedition. The wheeled air pumps were only used at forts or in battles with a large number of extra personnel in the caravans that accompanied the soldiers in battle. Just like every fighting army today has lots of extra staff driving trucks with supplies and cooking meals behind the fighting lines.
>
> Tommy, I know the answer to this question, but, do you ever think at all?
Russy, plainly you don't know anything about guns, While you are being attacked by Indians I want you to pump up a pressure vessel with 1500 pumps. It is plain that you were never in the military but pretty soon you'll wish you were when your city turns into little El Salvador.

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 7:21:39 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:53:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >https://www.google.com/search?q=girandoni+air+rifle+1780&tbm=isch
>
> Her is a moving picture of a girandoni's action while the hammer isn't
> critical to the action it does provide a means of tensioning the
> spring that operated the air valve.
> https://imgur.com/gallery/yAktn
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Thanks, good find. As you can see the gun is fired by a striker moving against the valve, which functions exactly like a tire valve.

I have worked on some airguns and replaced seals. This isn't easy on a spring powered one as you have to compress the spring before disassembling. Older high quality German air guns can still be found with leather seals, but the more recent ones have synthetics.

The seals needed a little oil to stay flexible, but not too much, or it would explode (diesel) when the piston compressed the air.

For a good explanation, see:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5mcemcyutrm

On 2/10/2022 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> It might be that the Air Gun was the most effective weapon that the
> expedition carried as while I can't find a specific statement that the
> Girandoni was rifled...

It was rifled.

See https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?t=189

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 7:44:38 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/10/2022 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:
> >
> > It might be that the Air Gun was the most effective weapon that the
> > expedition carried as while I can't find a specific statement that the
> > Girandoni was rifled...
>
> It was rifled.
>
> See https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?t=189
If that was true rifling why didn't they show a light down the barrel and photograph it. That airgun disassembled completely and the barrel detached. I think that was an early attempt at rifling that didn't have any twists in it because there were simply too many grooves in it and it and they were rounded.

By the way, so called muzzle loaders are still being manufactured and they are rifled, they shoot bullet shaped bullets and they with high pressure powder and accurate out to 300 yards with .50 caliber. Seems like a lot of effort when you can use a .50 caliber sniper rifle easily out to 2,000 meters with semiautomatic fire. The problem at these distances is holding steady on the target.

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 11:25:50 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 7:44:38 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/10/2022 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:
> > >
> > > It might be that the Air Gun was the most effective weapon that the
> > > expedition carried as while I can't find a specific statement that the
> > > Girandoni was rifled...
> >
> > It was rifled.
> >
> > See https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?t=189
> If that was true rifling why didn't they show a light down the barrel and photograph it. That airgun disassembled completely and the barrel detached.. I think that was an early attempt at rifling that didn't have any twists in it because there were simply too many grooves in it and it and they were rounded.
>
> By the way, so called muzzle loaders are still being manufactured and they are rifled, they shoot bullet shaped bullets and they with high pressure powder and accurate out to 300 yards with .50 caliber. Seems like a lot of effort when you can use a .50 caliber sniper rifle easily out to 2,000 meters with semiautomatic fire. The problem at these distances is holding steady on the target.

Round ball rifling works fine if it's just a shallow scratch in the barrel.
Muzzle loader rifling is very slow twist. Where a modern military rifle might spiral once in 9 inches, a muzzle loader can turn once in 72. (depends a bit on the type projectile. Round ball needs less, long narrow bullets need more.)

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 11:30:46 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 4:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> > "... needs a piece of paper saying that he is intelligent to qualify as competent."
> >
>
> That reminds me of a great bicycle story.
>
> I was great friends with Angel Rodriguez for many years. A
> Certain Person, a minor Midwest framebuilder of no great
> success, walked in, touting his 'Framebuilder Certification'
> program with certificate - at a fee. Angel, who was the 3d
> largest tandem builder then, with a long waiting list for
> his beautiful (& expensive) tandems, bit his lip, opened the
> cash register, threw several over-$1000 checks on the photo
> copier, handed the copy to that gentleman and said "Here's
> my certificate. You can leave now."
>
> Oh, how I miss that man. He's moved to Panama.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
What a grand, grand story! Thanks for sharing, Andrew. --- AJ

On 2/9/2022 6:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 4:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:03:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/9/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank
>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank
>>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank
>>>>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> snippity snip snip snip
>
>
>> You do realize that Frank considers Lewis and Clark stupid bumbling idiots because they didn't have college educations.
>> Simply being able to do it is not a sign of intelligence to Frank. He needs a piece of paper saying that he is intelligent
>> to qualify as competent.
>>
>
> That reminds me of a great bicycle story.
>
> I was great friends with Angel Rodriguez for many years. A Certain
> Person, a minor Midwest framebuilder of no great success, walked in,
> touting his 'Framebuilder Certification' program with certificate - at a
> fee. Angel, who was the 3d largest tandem builder then, with a long
> waiting list for his beautiful (& expensive) tandems, bit his lip,
> opened the cash register, threw several over-$1000 checks on the photo
> copier, handed the copy to that gentleman and said "Here's my
> certificate. You can leave now."

Certainly, not every "piece of paper" is equally valuable. And as John
has noted, Meriwether Lewis had a college degree. Beyond that, he had
what might be the equivalent of a Master's Degree, based on further
independent study arranged by Thomas Jefferson.

But Tom keeps implying degrees or even high school diplomas are of
little value - a classic case of "sour grapes."

Do you know someone who wants to fly the tilt rotor Osprey aircraft for
the Marines? They need to start by getting their degree. Pay attention
to 0:50 to 1:05 at
https://www.yahoo.com/news/marine-pilots-fly-84-million-163600565.html

Related: One of my favorite students had a lifetime ambition of flying
for the Air Force - specifically, the huge transport planes at our local
base. And indeed, within a few years of graduating, that's exactly what
he was doing. (He was kind enough to give me a tour of our area in a
much smaller plane to thank me.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 5:37:58 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 6:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 2/9/2022 4:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:03:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 2/9/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank
> >>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank
> >>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank
> >>>>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> > snippity snip snip snip
> >
> >
> >> You do realize that Frank considers Lewis and Clark stupid bumbling idiots because they didn't have college educations.
> >> Simply being able to do it is not a sign of intelligence to Frank. He needs a piece of paper saying that he is intelligent
> >> to qualify as competent.
> >>
> >
> > That reminds me of a great bicycle story.
> >
> > I was great friends with Angel Rodriguez for many years. A Certain
> > Person, a minor Midwest framebuilder of no great success, walked in,
> > touting his 'Framebuilder Certification' program with certificate - at a
> > fee. Angel, who was the 3d largest tandem builder then, with a long
> > waiting list for his beautiful (& expensive) tandems, bit his lip,
> > opened the cash register, threw several over-$1000 checks on the photo
> > copier, handed the copy to that gentleman and said "Here's my
> > certificate. You can leave now."
> Certainly, not every "piece of paper" is equally valuable. And as John
> has noted, Meriwether Lewis had a college degree. Beyond that, he had
> what might be the equivalent of a Master's Degree, based on further
> independent study arranged by Thomas Jefferson.
>
> But Tom keeps implying degrees or even high school diplomas are of
> little value - a classic case of "sour grapes."
>
> Do you know someone who wants to fly the tilt rotor Osprey aircraft for
> the Marines? They need to start by getting their degree. Pay attention
> to 0:50 to 1:05 at
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/marine-pilots-fly-84-million-163600565.html
>
> Related: One of my favorite students had a lifetime ambition of flying
> for the Air Force - specifically, the huge transport planes at our local
> base. And indeed, within a few years of graduating, that's exactly what
> he was doing. (He was kind enough to give me a tour of our area in a
> much smaller plane to thank me.)
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

To become an officer in the USA military, the person must have a bachelor's degree from a college. You cannot be a member of rank in the USA military without a college degree. Enlisted people are required to have a high school degree or a GED. I am not sure Tommy qualifies to be in the military.

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 4:04:06 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 5:37:58 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/9/2022 6:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 2/9/2022 4:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:03:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 2/9/2022 3:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank
> > >>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank
> > >>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank
> > >>>>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > snippity snip snip snip
> > >
> > >
> > >> You do realize that Frank considers Lewis and Clark stupid bumbling idiots because they didn't have college educations.
> > >> Simply being able to do it is not a sign of intelligence to Frank. He needs a piece of paper saying that he is intelligent
> > >> to qualify as competent.
> > >>
> > >
> > > That reminds me of a great bicycle story.
> > >
> > > I was great friends with Angel Rodriguez for many years. A Certain
> > > Person, a minor Midwest framebuilder of no great success, walked in,
> > > touting his 'Framebuilder Certification' program with certificate - at a
> > > fee. Angel, who was the 3d largest tandem builder then, with a long
> > > waiting list for his beautiful (& expensive) tandems, bit his lip,
> > > opened the cash register, threw several over-$1000 checks on the photo
> > > copier, handed the copy to that gentleman and said "Here's my
> > > certificate. You can leave now."
> > Certainly, not every "piece of paper" is equally valuable. And as John
> > has noted, Meriwether Lewis had a college degree. Beyond that, he had
> > what might be the equivalent of a Master's Degree, based on further
> > independent study arranged by Thomas Jefferson.
> >
> > But Tom keeps implying degrees or even high school diplomas are of
> > little value - a classic case of "sour grapes."
> >
> > Do you know someone who wants to fly the tilt rotor Osprey aircraft for
> > the Marines? They need to start by getting their degree. Pay attention
> > to 0:50 to 1:05 at
> > https://www.yahoo.com/news/marine-pilots-fly-84-million-163600565.html
> >
> > Related: One of my favorite students had a lifetime ambition of flying
> > for the Air Force - specifically, the huge transport planes at our local
> > base. And indeed, within a few years of graduating, that's exactly what
> > he was doing. (He was kind enough to give me a tour of our area in a
> > much smaller plane to thank me.)
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> To become an officer in the USA military, the person must have a bachelor's degree from a college. You cannot be a member of rank in the USA military without a college degree. Enlisted people are required to have a high school degree or a GED. I am not sure Tommy qualifies to be in the military.

Tell us when you were in the Military Russell. If you haven't why are you speaking about it as if you knew something? Most military officers attend the appropriate military academy such as West Point, Annapolis or United States Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. If you think that an officer is going to get anywhere with some Podunk college degree you couldn't be more wrong.

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 07:13:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 11:32:43 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > > On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > > >> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > > >>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> > > >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > >>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> > > >>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> > > >>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > > >>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> > > >>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> > > >>>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>> > > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>> > > >>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>> > > >>>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>> > > >>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>> > > >>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>> > > >>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>> > > >>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>> > > >>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>> > > >>>>>>> lot of respect.
>> > > >>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>> > > >>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>> > > >>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>> > > >>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>> > > >>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>> > > >>>>>> pistol.
>> > > >>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>> > > >>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>> > > >>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>> --
>> > > >>>>>> Cheers,
>> > > >>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>> John B.
>> > > >>>>>
>> > > >>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>> > > >>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>> > > >>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>> > > >>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>> > > >> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>> > > >> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>> > > >> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>> > > >> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>> > > >
>> > > > Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
>> > > <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
>> > And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged. Tell me Frank. Why do you make comments when you haven't even a clue what this was all about.
>> > "supported by wheeled air pumps and wagons of pre-charged air bottles. These air guns easily were put of service and needed constant and expert tending. A Girandoni air rifle was predestined to give inexperienced users trouble and charging with individual hand pumps was punishing to the user. The dependability of the gun for lethal combat, under field conditions, especially without the backup of dozens of other airguns, was not high."
>> > Tell is all how the Lewis and Clark expedition moved wheeled air pumps along waterways with boats often no bigger than Indian canoes? When you are ignorant perhaps your (sigh)ing simply shows your ignorance.
>> "Hand-operated air pumps (it took some 1,500 strokes to fill each air canister) were issued one per two riflemen with additional large scale, wheeled air-pumping carts placed behind the lines."
>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>>
>> Above is a quote from Andy's link about the air rifle used on the Lewis Clark expedition. Anyone with any common sense or intelligence at all, (not you), would guess the Lewis Clark expedition carried along one of the hand operated air pumps. And it was laboriously charged in the evening after supper. Lewis Clark did not use the wheeled air pumps on their expedition. The wheeled air pumps were only used at forts or in battles with a large number of extra personnel in the caravans that accompanied the soldiers in battle. Just like every fighting army today has lots of extra staff driving trucks with supplies and cooking meals behind the fighting lines.
>>
>> Tommy, I know the answer to this question, but, do you ever think at all?
>Russy, plainly you don't know anything about guns, While you are being attacked by Indians I want you to pump up a pressure vessel with 1500 pumps. It is plain that you were never in the military but pretty soon you'll wish you were when your city turns into little El Salvador.

And tommy knows something about being attacked by Indians?

But of course tommy was in the military... yup, he carried a tool box
for a qualified repairman and the closest he ever got to "fighting"
was about 2500 miles so obviously tommy is fully qualified to talk
about fighting.... Indians or otherwise.
--
Cheers,

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 10:44:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/10/2022 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> It might be that the Air Gun was the most effective weapon that the
>> expedition carried as while I can't find a specific statement that the
>> Girandoni was rifled...
>
>It was rifled.
>
>See https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?t=189

Interesting. Very innovative. The first rifled long guns in the U.S.
army date to about 1800 and in the British Army about the same period.
--
Cheers,

John B.