On 6/1/2022 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 07:38:47 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/31/2022 11:07 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:00:32 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/31/2022 5:48 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 5:48:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/30/2022 11:56 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 6:22:39 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 May 2022 11:24:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/29/2022 11:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 22:54:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/29/2022 6:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:57:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/28/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only legal "assault rifles" to use the common term are restricted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to "semi automatic", i.e., they fire once every time you pull the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trigger. This system dates back to1895 in rifles and semi automatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pistols seem to date back to the 1800's also. Short barrel, "carbine"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of thing. I can't find a specific date for first use but the term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to dates back to the 1600's. Pistol grip? The first I can find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the Delvigne, patented in 1840. Large magazines.. The Henry Rifle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patented in 1860 had a 15 round magazine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should give a list of mass shootings in which the Henry rifle was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the main weapon used. That would really buttress your argument, wouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Conversely, failure to provide such a list would indicate how weak your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> points are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good on yuh Frank. A nice end run about my dissertation pointing out
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that all your claims to modern rifles being, what was the word you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> used? Optimized for man killing? When in fact every thing about them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is copied from weapons that have been available for a hundred years or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Show me a hundred year old rifle that weighs less than ten pounds and
>>>>>>>>>>>> can fire four or five rounds in one second. And that can be easily
>>>>>>>>>>>> fitted with a 50 round magazine. (While you're at it, explain why a
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-military person needs such capability. What are the advantages?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you kept going on and on about optimized for killing. I was
>>>>>>>>>>> simply demonstrating that WOW! Here is a gun optimized for killing way
>>>>>>>>>>> back in 1903 and used for that purpose for 50 years or more. Don't
>>>>>>>>>>> deaths before, well say 1989 when the first "assault rifle, an AK-47,
>>>>>>>>>>> was used to kill civilians, count?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Watch the Jim Jeffries videos again. The 1770's muskets were optimized
>>>>>>>>>> for killing. If that design was what gun fetishists wanted today, we'd
>>>>>>>>>> have far fewer problems and roughly zero mass murders. Technology makes
>>>>>>>>>> a difference.
>>>>>>>>> Frank, you are a fool.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes the 1779's muskets were optimized for killing. Of course they
>>>>>>>>> were. Or do you some how think that military weapons and tactics were
>>>>>>>>> somehow foolish simply because they don't match modern fancies?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A an example, in the earlier days smooth bore "muskets" were the
>>>>>>>>> preferred infantry fire arm although the much more accurate "rifle"
>>>>>>>>> was invented in 1498. Evidence of the suddenness of the military. Not
>>>>>>>>> hardly. The musket could be loaded very quickly, four shots per
>>>>>>>>> minute, while the rifle took at least twice as long and as a battle
>>>>>>>>> progressed and the rifle became more and more "fouled" with powder
>>>>>>>>> residue even longer to load.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So Frank, you exhibit your lack of knowledge about firearms once
>>>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You go on and on about these terrible assault rifles that are
>>>>>>>>> "optimized for killing. Don't you realize that all firearms, from the
>>>>>>>>> very first "fire lance" developed in China more then 1000 years ago,
>>>>>>>>> were designed for, and logically optimized for, killing people?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No. Modern civilian rifles and shotguns are optimized for the game/target being shot. The biathalon rifle used by almost everyone is specifically optimized for skiing and shooting. Its 22 long rifle. Not much of a killer caliber. But they just shoot at metal disks. Shotguns are optimized for the birds being shot. And their choke is adjusted to fit how far away the targets will be when encountered. Small birds are OK with 410 or 28 gauge. Less powerful. But big birds such as pheasants will want a 12 gauge or at worst a 20 gauge. Skeet shooters shoot clay disks flying through the sky. Their over/under shotguns are 12 gauge and optimized for breaking the clay pigeons. And with hunting rifles, the bolt action is preferred by most. Accurate and can be made in all calibers on earth. Big caliber for shooting buffaloes or elephants in Africa. Smaller 22 or 30 calibers for deer in the US. And their are bigger cartridges for bigger game such as bear or moose. Optimized by
>>>>>>> caliber for the game being shot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 22 caliber rifle firearms are optimized for practice essentially. Plinking. Or for kids to learn how to shoot a firearm. I have a couple 22 rifles available to use. Shooting opossums or raccoons. Not killing people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The fact is Frank that you really don't know anything at all about
>>>>>>>>> firearms and are speaking from a position of overwhelming ignorance.
>>>>>>>>> Your entire "claim to fame" in the gun question seems to be, "Oh yes,
>>>>>>>>> I fired one, once".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yes, you don't like them, one might even, from your writing,
>>>>>>>>> believe that you fear them, but, again from your writing, you
>>>>>>>>> certainly don't have any real knowledge of them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So lets just leave it at that. You are ranting and raving about a
>>>>>>>>> subject which you know, literally, nothing (yes, I know you shot one
>>>>>>>>> once) about.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>> I can't comment on 'intent' but for many years the #1 round
>>>>>>> for wounds/deaths in USA was .22LR. And .22 rifles dominated
>>>>>>> other long arms as a group. (I suspect mostly negligent as
>>>>>>> people are less safety conscious with a 'mere' .22 but I
>>>>>>> don't know that.)
>>>>>> Many outright murders are actually assassinations and the .22 is the prefered weapon of assasins because it makes so little sound. As for long rifles - these were used by kids to learn to shoot and farmers etc, for meat such as rabbits and squirrels. Being the most common guns would imply why the most injuries and deths accidental or not were caused by that weapon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Didn't I see someone write that a 22 caliber wass never used in war? The NATO round is .223 caliber and was used throughout the middle eastern wars. This is because these fights were all close actions and carrying more ammo was more important than long range accuracy which suffers since the lighter bullet is more effected by wind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The M1B is a clip fed .308 which is the same bullet but a shorter cartrige than the 30-06
>>>>>
>>>>> Tommy, you not being knowledgeable, you conflate the .223/5.56mm NATO round (centerfire) used by many militaries around the world, since the 1960s, with the .22 Long Rifle or Long or Short rimfire round used in many rifles in the USA. And a few pistols too. The DIAMETER is about the same. .22 inches more or less. But the bullet weight (40 grain or 62 grain), amount of lead, and the shell casing and the amount of powder in the casing are VASTLY different. The muzzle velocity and muzzle energy are VASTLY different too. 3240 fps and 1282 ft lb for the .223. And 1200 fps and 120 ft lb for the 22 Long Rifle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind of like a regulation barbell weighs 45 pounds. Add two 5 pound weights to either side and it is 55 pounds. A bushel of shelled corn is 56 pounds in its paper bag. Assuming your are buying bags of seed corn. Identical weight more or less. But not when you try to pick them up and move them around. A 55 pound barbell and a 56 pound bag of corn are different. Kind of like a .22 rimfire cartridge and a .223/5.56mm NATO round are different. Despite both having a diameter of .22 inches.
>>>>>
>>>> More convoluted than I imagined. Not only the Navy .308:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/springfield-m1-garand-rifle-w-plano-hardcase--308-win--24--surplus.html
>>>
>>> OK. I can believe that link you gave. Italy was using the new NATO round. Which is 7.62mm x 51mm I think is .308 Winchester. So they made an M1 Garand in 1952 with the new cartridge. I think we already talked about 30-06 and 308 Winchester being the same bullet, just different casing length. It was probably not a difficult process to change a few parts to get an M1 Garand in 308.
>>>
>>> But Andy, I am not convinced the old adults you were around in your youth bought surplus Italian M1 Garands and used them to hunt deer. In 308 Winchester. Now, I can believe that in the 1960s the Italian military did surplus their old M1 Garand rifles in 308. Afterall, that would be an old rifle by then. And being Italian, they had to have the newest and latest and most stylish rifle. Like their new Ferrari and new Giorgio Armani or Dolce Gabbana suits. Can't have a 15 year old time M1 Garand as a rifle. No no no.
>>
>> You're right, those are anomalies.
>>
>> After consulting with my brother, yes there were M1 in the
>> neighborhood. The rounds we once pilfered and disassembled
>> for powder were .308. I conflated those two things.
>
> Stealing gun powder?
>
> I and a schoolmate used to try and make Nitroglycerine with his
> chemistry set, in his basement.
>
> Nitroglycerine? In the Cellar? His mother would have had a heart spasm
> had she known (:-)
>
> In any event it turns out that the process is a bit more complex then
> we had anticipated and, we used to bottle out concoctions and take
> them out to an abandoned quarry and throw them down into the
> excavation, the best we ever accomplished was a sort of "poof", once.
>
> Then, I suppose, we discovered girls and gave up on the chemistry (:-)
>

On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 19:32:19 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 6/1/2022 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 07:38:47 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/31/2022 11:07 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:00:32 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/31/2022 5:48 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 5:48:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/30/2022 11:56 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 6:22:39 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 May 2022 11:24:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/29/2022 11:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 22:54:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/29/2022 6:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:57:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/28/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only legal "assault rifles" to use the common term are restricted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to "semi automatic", i.e., they fire once every time you pull the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trigger. This system dates back to1895 in rifles and semi automatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pistols seem to date back to the 1800's also. Short barrel, "carbine"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of thing. I can't find a specific date for first use but the term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to dates back to the 1600's. Pistol grip? The first I can find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the Delvigne, patented in 1840. Large magazines.. The Henry Rifle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patented in 1860 had a 15 round magazine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should give a list of mass shootings in which the Henry rifle was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the main weapon used. That would really buttress your argument, wouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Conversely, failure to provide such a list would indicate how weak your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> points are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good on yuh Frank. A nice end run about my dissertation pointing out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that all your claims to modern rifles being, what was the word you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used? Optimized for man killing? When in fact every thing about them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is copied from weapons that have been available for a hundred years or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Show me a hundred year old rifle that weighs less than ten pounds and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can fire four or five rounds in one second. And that can be easily
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fitted with a 50 round magazine. (While you're at it, explain why a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-military person needs such capability. What are the advantages?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you kept going on and on about optimized for killing. I was
>>>>>>>>>>>> simply demonstrating that WOW! Here is a gun optimized for killing way
>>>>>>>>>>>> back in 1903 and used for that purpose for 50 years or more. Don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> deaths before, well say 1989 when the first "assault rifle, an AK-47,
>>>>>>>>>>>> was used to kill civilians, count?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Watch the Jim Jeffries videos again. The 1770's muskets were optimized
>>>>>>>>>>> for killing. If that design was what gun fetishists wanted today, we'd
>>>>>>>>>>> have far fewer problems and roughly zero mass murders. Technology makes
>>>>>>>>>>> a difference.
>>>>>>>>>> Frank, you are a fool.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes the 1779's muskets were optimized for killing. Of course they
>>>>>>>>>> were. Or do you some how think that military weapons and tactics were
>>>>>>>>>> somehow foolish simply because they don't match modern fancies?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A an example, in the earlier days smooth bore "muskets" were the
>>>>>>>>>> preferred infantry fire arm although the much more accurate "rifle"
>>>>>>>>>> was invented in 1498. Evidence of the suddenness of the military. Not
>>>>>>>>>> hardly. The musket could be loaded very quickly, four shots per
>>>>>>>>>> minute, while the rifle took at least twice as long and as a battle
>>>>>>>>>> progressed and the rifle became more and more "fouled" with powder
>>>>>>>>>> residue even longer to load.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So Frank, you exhibit your lack of knowledge about firearms once
>>>>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You go on and on about these terrible assault rifles that are
>>>>>>>>>> "optimized for killing. Don't you realize that all firearms, from the
>>>>>>>>>> very first "fire lance" developed in China more then 1000 years ago,
>>>>>>>>>> were designed for, and logically optimized for, killing people?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No. Modern civilian rifles and shotguns are optimized for the game/target being shot. The biathalon rifle used by almost everyone is specifically optimized for skiing and shooting. Its 22 long rifle. Not much of a killer caliber. But they just shoot at metal disks. Shotguns are optimized for the birds being shot. And their choke is adjusted to fit how far away the targets will be when encountered. Small birds are OK with 410 or 28 gauge. Less powerful. But big birds such as pheasants will want a 12 gauge or at worst a 20 gauge. Skeet shooters shoot clay disks flying through the sky. Their over/under shotguns are 12 gauge and optimized for breaking the clay pigeons. And with hunting rifles, the bolt action is preferred by most. Accurate and can be made in all calibers on earth. Big caliber for shooting buffaloes or elephants in Africa. Smaller 22 or 30 calibers for deer in the US. And their are bigger cartridges for bigger game such as bear or moose. Optimized by
>>>>>>>> caliber for the game being shot.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 22 caliber rifle firearms are optimized for practice essentially. Plinking. Or for kids to learn how to shoot a firearm. I have a couple 22 rifles available to use. Shooting opossums or raccoons. Not killing people.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The fact is Frank that you really don't know anything at all about
>>>>>>>>>> firearms and are speaking from a position of overwhelming ignorance.
>>>>>>>>>> Your entire "claim to fame" in the gun question seems to be, "Oh yes,
>>>>>>>>>> I fired one, once".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yes, you don't like them, one might even, from your writing,
>>>>>>>>>> believe that you fear them, but, again from your writing, you
>>>>>>>>>> certainly don't have any real knowledge of them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So lets just leave it at that. You are ranting and raving about a
>>>>>>>>>> subject which you know, literally, nothing (yes, I know you shot one
>>>>>>>>>> once) about.
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>> I can't comment on 'intent' but for many years the #1 round
>>>>>>>> for wounds/deaths in USA was .22LR. And .22 rifles dominated
>>>>>>>> other long arms as a group. (I suspect mostly negligent as
>>>>>>>> people are less safety conscious with a 'mere' .22 but I
>>>>>>>> don't know that.)
>>>>>>> Many outright murders are actually assassinations and the .22 is the prefered weapon of assasins because it makes so little sound. As for long rifles - these were used by kids to learn to shoot and farmers etc, for meat such as rabbits and squirrels. Being the most common guns would imply why the most injuries and deths accidental or not were caused by that weapon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Didn't I see someone write that a 22 caliber wass never used in war? The NATO round is .223 caliber and was used throughout the middle eastern wars. This is because these fights were all close actions and carrying more ammo was more important than long range accuracy which suffers since the lighter bullet is more effected by wind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The M1B is a clip fed .308 which is the same bullet but a shorter cartrige than the 30-06
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tommy, you not being knowledgeable, you conflate the .223/5.56mm NATO round (centerfire) used by many militaries around the world, since the 1960s, with the .22 Long Rifle or Long or Short rimfire round used in many rifles in the USA. And a few pistols too. The DIAMETER is about the same. .22 inches more or less. But the bullet weight (40 grain or 62 grain), amount of lead, and the shell casing and the amount of powder in the casing are VASTLY different. The muzzle velocity and muzzle energy are VASTLY different too. 3240 fps and 1282 ft lb for the .223. And 1200 fps and 120 ft lb for the 22 Long Rifle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind of like a regulation barbell weighs 45 pounds. Add two 5 pound weights to either side and it is 55 pounds. A bushel of shelled corn is 56 pounds in its paper bag. Assuming your are buying bags of seed corn. Identical weight more or less. But not when you try to pick them up and move them around. A 55 pound barbell and a 56 pound bag of corn are different. Kind of like a .22 rimfire cartridge and a .223/5.56mm NATO round are different. Despite both having a diameter of .22 inches.
>>>>>>
>>>>> More convoluted than I imagined. Not only the Navy .308:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/springfield-m1-garand-rifle-w-plano-hardcase--308-win--24--surplus.html
>>>>
>>>> OK. I can believe that link you gave. Italy was using the new NATO round. Which is 7.62mm x 51mm I think is .308 Winchester. So they made an M1 Garand in 1952 with the new cartridge. I think we already talked about 30-06 and 308 Winchester being the same bullet, just different casing length. It was probably not a difficult process to change a few parts to get an M1 Garand in 308.
>>>>
>>>> But Andy, I am not convinced the old adults you were around in your youth bought surplus Italian M1 Garands and used them to hunt deer. In 308 Winchester. Now, I can believe that in the 1960s the Italian military did surplus their old M1 Garand rifles in 308. Afterall, that would be an old rifle by then. And being Italian, they had to have the newest and latest and most stylish rifle. Like their new Ferrari and new Giorgio Armani or Dolce Gabbana suits. Can't have a 15 year old time M1 Garand as a rifle. No no no.
>>>
>>> You're right, those are anomalies.
>>>
>>> After consulting with my brother, yes there were M1 in the
>>> neighborhood. The rounds we once pilfered and disassembled
>>> for powder were .308. I conflated those two things.
>>
>> Stealing gun powder?
>>
>> I and a schoolmate used to try and make Nitroglycerine with his
>> chemistry set, in his basement.
>>
>> Nitroglycerine? In the Cellar? His mother would have had a heart spasm
>> had she known (:-)
>>
>> In any event it turns out that the process is a bit more complex then
>> we had anticipated and, we used to bottle out concoctions and take
>> them out to an abandoned quarry and throw them down into the
>> excavation, the best we ever accomplished was a sort of "poof", once.
>>
>> Then, I suppose, we discovered girls and gave up on the chemistry (:-)
>>
>
>Yes that sounds like the normal progression as I lived it.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> >> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of guns that they have never owned one always have the greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal of energy.
> >
> >Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
> >considered unethical.
> >
> >Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with a
> >heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
> >
> >IOW, lay it on thick.
> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
> 2nd paragraph

From that page: "The .22 inch rim-fire are usually used for vermin control (rats and rabbits) but can be used effectively, when loaded with the correct ammunition, to kill young cattle, horses, sheep, deer*, goats, and pigs up to 100kg, when shooting from a short distance (from 5-25cm away)."

You're trolling , John. Executing or slaughtering is not hunting. Do you suppose Tom got within 25cm of a deer?

- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 7:18:36 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:35:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 6/1/2022 10:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 6/1/2022 9:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 6/1/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Back in the day, I can't remember ever seeing a
> >>>> semi-automatic hunting
> >>>> rifle, at least not one being shot. A friend's father had
> >>>> a Remington
> >>>> Model 81, "wood master" or some such name. I remember
> >>>> seeing it on a
> >>>> gun rack in his father's den and thought it was sort of
> >>>> ungainly
> >>>> looking.
> >>>>
> >>>> But re automatic rifles. My grandfather, my father and I
> >>>> all hunted
> >>>> deer, in New Hampshire, over the years, and mostly they
> >>>> were "one
> >>>> shot, one deer". I remember my granddad showing me a 20
> >>>> round box of
> >>>> 38-55 cartridges that he said he'd been using for 10
> >>>> years... there
> >>>> were 10 cartridges left (:-)
> >>>
> >>> So can we finally put to rest the silly argument that AR-15s
> >>> and the like are appropriate for hunting deer?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> https://www.at3tactical.com/blogs/news/using-an-ar-15-for-hunting
> >>
> >> Concludes excellent for feral hogs, limited by range for deer.
> >
> >Again, click bait for AR fetishists looking to justify their toy.
> >
> > From that site: "The same rifle that will allow you to hunt can also be
> >used for training on the range, or plinking, and the rifles also are a
> >go-to for self-defense."
> >
> >Give me a break! Any gun can be used for "training on the range" or
> >"plinking." And who in hell needs an AR for self defense? Are they
> >defending themselves from infantry attack? How often does that happen?
> >It's "Call of Duty" gaming fantasy!
> >
> >There are many other choices that allow killing pigs without killing
> >kids, shoppers, concert goers, etc.
> >
> >https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/best-hog-hunting-guns/
> And again the indomitable Frank flaunts his ignorance.
>
> " Any gun can be used for "training on the range" Totally incorrect.
>
> The course of fire for small bore (.22 rim fire) matches is totally
> different from "big bore" matches.

Your objection is totally irrelevant. The article didn't specify any characteristics of "the range."
A .22 can be used on a shooting range. You're trying desperately to counter anything I say,
by picking nits. But you're failing.

- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:23:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> >On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of guns that they have never owned one always have the greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal of energy.
>> >
>> >Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
>> >considered unethical.
>> >
>> >Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with a
>> >heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
>> >
>> >IOW, lay it on thick.
>> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
>> 2nd paragraph
>
>From that page: "The .22 inch rim-fire are usually used for vermin control (rats and rabbits) but can be used effectively, when loaded with the correct ammunition, to kill young cattle, horses, sheep, deer*, goats, and pigs up to 100kg, when shooting from a short distance (from 5-25cm away)."
>
>You're trolling , John. Executing or slaughtering is not hunting. Do you suppose Tom got within 25cm of a deer?
>
>- Frank Krygowski

But of course when you are killing critters at a slaughter house you
get right up close. After all the further way the better chance you
have to "miss" the target which is hardly humane and, of course, a lot
of people would decline to buy a steak with a bullet hole in it.

And to preclude any of your future foolishness you might want to look
at:
https://shootersden2.com/post/2018/11/08/how-far-will-a-22-lr-bullet-kill
"a 22 round CAN kill as far out as you can hit a target which in near
perfect conditions can go as far out as 440 yards or so."
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4276920/
" as a matter of fact I have killed a number of Javalinas at 150 and
200 yards with std hollow points and a few coyotes..I have killed deer
in the more open country on my dads ranch in old Mexico at up to about
75 or 100 yards on a few ocassions and with shoulder shots."
https://www.gunpolicy.org/documents/5561-22-calibre-rabbit-rifles-kill-more-people-than-any-other/file
Research Studies, Australia and New Zealand
In Brisbane, .22 calibre rifles were used in 66% of gun suicides and
55% of gun homicides
In New South Wales, 76% of all guns used in suicide were .22 calibre
rifles
Throughout Australia, .22 calibre rifles were used to kill 43% of
firearm homicide victims, making this the gun most commonly used in
murder and manslaughter shootings
In Auckland, New Zealand, .22 calibre weapons were used in 46% of all
gun deaths -- more
than any other firearm (7)
Throughout New Zealand, 32.5% of firearm homicide victims were killed
with a .22 calibre rimfire rifle; 20% with a semi-automatic .22 rifle
and the remaining 12.5% with a single-action .22 rifle. Guns of this
calibre were the most common type used in murder and manslaughter

So, now that you have, yet again, flaunted your foolishness, and lack
of knowledge, for all the world to see do you plan on "seconds"?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:29:54 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> >> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of guns that they have never owned one always have the greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal of energy.
> >
> >Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
> >considered unethical.
> >
> >Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with a
> >heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
> >
> >IOW, lay it on thick.
> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
> 2nd paragraph
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

A quote from your link:
"If a .22 inch rim-fire rifle is to be used for killing livestock, the muzzle should be held from 5-25cm away from the animal’s forehead"
5-25cm is 2-10 inches. Point blank range. And later in the paragraph it talks about the "knackerman". Humanely killing domestic, livestock, animals.. A .22 Long Rifle cartridge is a good weapon for this sort of work.

At the end of the article it has this:
"*in England and Wales, under the Deer Act 1991, it is illegal under any circumstances to shoot deer with a rifle of less than .240 calibre. Anyone doing so may be liable to prosecution."
Apparently in England they do not even allow the .223 Remington, 5.56mm NATO, round to be used for hunting deer. England requires a minimum of a .243 Winchester cartridge for deer. They certainly do not allow 22 Long Rifle cartridges for deer. No one on earth would allow that. So its no surprise that our Tommy boy is bragging about doing it.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:03:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 09:44:50 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 6/1/2022 9:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 6/1/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Back in the day, I can't remember ever seeing a
> >>> semi-automatic hunting
> >>> rifle, at least not one being shot. A friend's father had
> >>> a Remington
> >>> Model 81, "wood master" or some such name. I remember
> >>> seeing it on a
> >>> gun rack in his father's den and thought it was sort of
> >>> ungainly
> >>> looking.
> >>>
> >>> But re automatic rifles. My grandfather, my father and I
> >>> all hunted
> >>> deer, in New Hampshire, over the years, and mostly they
> >>> were "one
> >>> shot, one deer". I remember my granddad showing me a 20
> >>> round box of
> >>> 38-55 cartridges that he said he'd been using for 10
> >>> years... there
> >>> were 10 cartridges left (:-)
> >>
> >> So can we finally put to rest the silly argument that AR-15s
> >> and the like are appropriate for hunting deer?
> >>
> >>
> >https://www.at3tactical.com/blogs/news/using-an-ar-15-for-hunting
> >
> >Concludes excellent for feral hogs, limited by range for deer.
> I had some sort of "Uncle", on my mother's side of the family who
> lived out in the woods somewhere and ate venison (deer meat) year
> round. Killed them with a .22 rim fire rifle. Said something like,
> "why not when it works?"
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

I suspect your "Uncle" was pulling your chain. Even 50-60-70 years ago, hunters knew the appropriate caliber to use for various size game. And the 22 Long Rifle was not appropriate for anything over small game. Rabbits, squirrels, foxes, raccoons, opossums. Unless you were a world class marksman, target shooter, who could make a head shot at any distance.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 01:13:20 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:29:54 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of guns that they have never owned one always have the greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal of energy.
>> >
>> >Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
>> >considered unethical.
>> >
>> >Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with a
>> >heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
>> >
>> >IOW, lay it on thick.
>> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
>> 2nd paragraph
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>A quote from your link:
>"If a .22 inch rim-fire rifle is to be used for killing livestock, the muzzle should be held from 5-25cm away from the animal’s forehead"
>5-25cm is 2-10 inches. Point blank range. And later in the paragraph it talks about the "knackerman". Humanely killing domestic, livestock, animals. A .22 Long Rifle cartridge is a good weapon for this sort of work.

Yup, and I answered that in detail in another post, but basically you
shoot "critters" in the head at short ranges so You don't want to
miss. Would you want to buy steaks all shoot full of bullet holes (:-)

>At the end of the article it has this:
>"*in England and Wales, under the Deer Act 1991, it is illegal under any circumstances to shoot deer with a rifle of less than .240 calibre. Anyone doing so may be liable to prosecution."
>Apparently in England they do not even allow the .223 Remington, 5.56mm NATO, round to be used for hunting deer. England requires a minimum of a .243 Winchester cartridge for deer. They certainly do not allow 22 Long Rifle cartridges for deer. No one on earth would allow that. So its no surprise that our Tommy boy is bragging about doing it.

I can't say for the U.K. but I posted a slew of references to people
shooting large creatures with a .22 rim fire at some distance and in
fact it is the most common murder weapon in. Was it New Zealand?
Somewhere down there.

I hesitate to use my own experience but I did have some sort of
"Uncle" on my mother's side of the family who lived out in the wilds
of New Hampshire and ate venison all year. He said that he used
nothing but a .22 rim fire rifle... "just shoot 'em in the head".
However, it should be remembered that he was, well, "a professional"
as opposed to someone that only shoots deer in Hunting Season (:-)

I believe I also mentioned that the .22 rim fire pistol was the
preferred weapon of the Israeli Secret Service during the "Wrath of
God" campaign.
https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:18:36 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:35:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 6/1/2022 10:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 6/1/2022 9:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 6/1/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Back in the day, I can't remember ever seeing a
> >>>> semi-automatic hunting
> >>>> rifle, at least not one being shot. A friend's father had
> >>>> a Remington
> >>>> Model 81, "wood master" or some such name. I remember
> >>>> seeing it on a
> >>>> gun rack in his father's den and thought it was sort of
> >>>> ungainly
> >>>> looking.
> >>>>
> >>>> But re automatic rifles. My grandfather, my father and I
> >>>> all hunted
> >>>> deer, in New Hampshire, over the years, and mostly they
> >>>> were "one
> >>>> shot, one deer". I remember my granddad showing me a 20
> >>>> round box of
> >>>> 38-55 cartridges that he said he'd been using for 10
> >>>> years... there
> >>>> were 10 cartridges left (:-)
> >>>
> >>> So can we finally put to rest the silly argument that AR-15s
> >>> and the like are appropriate for hunting deer?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> https://www.at3tactical.com/blogs/news/using-an-ar-15-for-hunting
> >>
> >> Concludes excellent for feral hogs, limited by range for deer.
> >
> >Again, click bait for AR fetishists looking to justify their toy.
> >
> > From that site: "The same rifle that will allow you to hunt can also be
> >used for training on the range, or plinking, and the rifles also are a
> >go-to for self-defense."
> >
> >Give me a break! Any gun can be used for "training on the range" or
> >"plinking." And who in hell needs an AR for self defense? Are they
> >defending themselves from infantry attack? How often does that happen?
> >It's "Call of Duty" gaming fantasy!
> >
> >There are many other choices that allow killing pigs without killing
> >kids, shoppers, concert goers, etc.
> >
> >https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/best-hog-hunting-guns/
> And again the indomitable Frank flaunts his ignorance.
>
> " Any gun can be used for "training on the range" Totally incorrect.
>
> The course of fire for small bore (.22 rim fire) matches is totally
> different from "big bore" matches. The range is different, "small
> bore" matches are frequently fired indoors while big bore is
> "outdoors".
>
> Certainly the ignorant may cry, "what's the difference" which may
> sound intelligent until the wind starts blowing.
>
> And finally, there is the recoil. Shooting a .22 that just sort of
> lays there and goes bang is totally different then, say a 30-06 which
> goes bang and gives you a good firm nudge on the shoulder.
>
> But I suppose, to paraphrase someone or another, "The ignorant do rush
> in where the intelligent fear to tread".
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Most, not all, of training is accuracy. So lining up the sights and hitting the target is most important. Controlling your breathing. Repeating the same motions over and over again. Which is identical no matter which caliber is used. You can easily, and better, do that with a 22 Long Rifle cartridge than a high powered center fire cartridge. Cheaper ammo, and less recoil. So you can practice far more rounds with the 22LR. Yes, you do have to fire the bigger caliber rifle to become used to the recoil and react accordingly after pulling the trigger. But you can fire a 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 ratio of the small caliber bullets. For practice and training.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:53:38 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:23:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of guns that they have never owned one always have the greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal of energy.
> >> >
> >> >Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
> >> >considered unethical.
> >> >
> >> >Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with a
> >> >heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
> >> >
> >> >IOW, lay it on thick.
> >> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
> >> 2nd paragraph
> >
> >From that page: "The .22 inch rim-fire are usually used for vermin control (rats and rabbits) but can be used effectively, when loaded with the correct ammunition, to kill young cattle, horses, sheep, deer*, goats, and pigs up to 100kg, when shooting from a short distance (from 5-25cm away)."
> >
> >You're trolling , John. Executing or slaughtering is not hunting. Do you suppose Tom got within 25cm of a deer?
> >
> >- Frank Krygowski
> But of course when you are killing critters at a slaughter house you
> get right up close. After all the further way the better chance you
> have to "miss" the target which is hardly humane and, of course, a lot
> of people would decline to buy a steak with a bullet hole in it.
>
> And to preclude any of your future foolishness you might want to look
> at:
> https://shootersden2.com/post/2018/11/08/how-far-will-a-22-lr-bullet-kill
> "a 22 round CAN kill as far out as you can hit a target which in near
> perfect conditions can go as far out as 440 yards or so."
> https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4276920/
> " as a matter of fact I have killed a number of Javalinas at 150 and
> 200 yards with std hollow points and a few coyotes..I have killed deer
> in the more open country on my dads ranch in old Mexico at up to about
> 75 or 100 yards on a few ocassions and with shoulder shots."
> https://www.gunpolicy.org/documents/5561-22-calibre-rabbit-rifles-kill-more-people-than-any-other/file
> Research Studies, Australia and New Zealand
> In Brisbane, .22 calibre rifles were used in 66% of gun suicides and
> 55% of gun homicides
> In New South Wales, 76% of all guns used in suicide were .22 calibre
> rifles
> Throughout Australia, .22 calibre rifles were used to kill 43% of
> firearm homicide victims, making this the gun most commonly used in
> murder and manslaughter shootings
> In Auckland, New Zealand, .22 calibre weapons were used in 46% of all
> gun deaths -- more
> than any other firearm (7)
> Throughout New Zealand, 32.5% of firearm homicide victims were killed
> with a .22 calibre rimfire rifle; 20% with a semi-automatic .22 rifle
> and the remaining 12.5% with a single-action .22 rifle. Guns of this
> calibre were the most common type used in murder and manslaughter

John, I am worried you are becoming more Tommy like.

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/total_number_of_gun_deaths
https://www.timescall.com/2021/07/12/randall-upton-look-at-the-facts-about-gun-deaths-in-australia-u-s/
"In 2019 in Australia, there were 229 gun deaths, excluding from suicides. In the United States for the same time frame, there were 19,379 gun deaths, excluding from suicides. The vast difference appears in statistics on annual firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population. In Australia in 2019, the figure for gun deaths by homicide and suicide was 0.88. In the US, the figure for 2017 was 12.21. In other words, the per-capita rate in Australia was 14 times less than the rate in the U.S."

229 gun deaths/murders in Australia in 2019. 229. 229. 229. 229. 229.

As for New Zealand.
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/15/703737499/in-new-zealand-mass-shootings-are-very-rare
"According to New Zealand Police, there were 69 total murders with a firearm between 2008 and 2017."
In the whole F-CKING country of New Zealand, there were 69 gun murders in 10 years. Before the above big mass murder.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/New-Zealand/United-States/Crime
New Zealand Murders with firearms per million 2.53
USA Murders with firearms per million 32.57

Australia and New Zealand implemented extensive gun restrictions after their respective mass shootings. No semi auto rifles allowed. Gun buybacks. Etc. So the 22 rimfire guns are really the only guns left in the countries.. Sort of.

Why on earth are you talking about Australia and New Zealand? Are you holding them up as good examples of what can be achieved?

Or are you just dwelling upon this 22 rimfire cartridge? No one on earth is arguing that a 22 Long Rifle or 22 Long or even 22 Short cannot kill a human being. Especially if you put a 22 rifle in your mouth and use a stick to push the trigger. Suicide.

>
> So, now that you have, yet again, flaunted your foolishness, and lack
> of knowledge, for all the world to see do you plan on "seconds"?
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 3:32:31 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 01:13:20 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:29:54 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of guns that they have never owned one always have the greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal of energy.
> >> >
> >> >Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
> >> >considered unethical.
> >> >
> >> >Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with a
> >> >heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
> >> >
> >> >IOW, lay it on thick.
> >> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
> >> 2nd paragraph
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >A quote from your link:
> >"If a .22 inch rim-fire rifle is to be used for killing livestock, the muzzle should be held from 5-25cm away from the animal’s forehead"
> >5-25cm is 2-10 inches. Point blank range. And later in the paragraph it talks about the "knackerman". Humanely killing domestic, livestock, animals.. A .22 Long Rifle cartridge is a good weapon for this sort of work.
> Yup, and I answered that in detail in another post, but basically you
> shoot "critters" in the head at short ranges so You don't want to
> miss. Would you want to buy steaks all shoot full of bullet holes (:-)
> >At the end of the article it has this:
> >"*in England and Wales, under the Deer Act 1991, it is illegal under any circumstances to shoot deer with a rifle of less than .240 calibre. Anyone doing so may be liable to prosecution."
> >Apparently in England they do not even allow the .223 Remington, 5.56mm NATO, round to be used for hunting deer. England requires a minimum of a .243 Winchester cartridge for deer. They certainly do not allow 22 Long Rifle cartridges for deer. No one on earth would allow that. So its no surprise that our Tommy boy is bragging about doing it.
> I can't say for the U.K. but I posted a slew of references to people
> shooting large creatures with a .22 rim fire at some distance and in
> fact it is the most common murder weapon in. Was it New Zealand?
> Somewhere down there.

I answered the Australia and New Zealand post in another reply.

>
> I hesitate to use my own experience but I did have some sort of
> "Uncle" on my mother's side of the family who lived out in the wilds
> of New Hampshire and ate venison all year. He said that he used
> nothing but a .22 rim fire rifle... "just shoot 'em in the head".

Yes. Just shoot them in the head. As every gun aficionado knows, accuracy is the most important criteria. The caliber or man stopping power of a gun is completely irrelevant if you place the bullet in the right spot. You could kill elephants with a 22 rimfire if you shot the elephant in the eye and at the right angle so the bullet went into the elephant's brain. But as you have probably seen at various shooting competitions, not everyone always hits dead center in the bullseye. And during the recent Winter Olympics during the biathalon competition, the expert marksman skiers did not always hit the target. They missed sometimes. And I am pretty sure those marksman are 100 times better than a regular expert. And at the Olympics during the summer there is some kind of target shooting competition too I believe. Not every shooter scores a perfect 100% score every time. They miss a little bit too. So "experts" miss. And you're arguing non-experts never miss?

> However, it should be remembered that he was, well, "a professional"
> as opposed to someone that only shoots deer in Hunting Season (:-)
>
> I believe I also mentioned that the .22 rim fire pistol was the
> preferred weapon of the Israeli Secret Service during the "Wrath of
> God" campaign.
> https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/

Yes. I can believe that. They were assassinating people. At point blank range most likely. So a 22 rimfire pistol was ideal. Small, sort of quiet, easily hidden and controlled. They probably put the pistol on the person's chest over the heart and pulled the trigger. Or put the pistol at the front, side or back of the target's head and pulled the trigger. 22LR or 25ACP if they wanted a centerfire cartridge is ideal for that type of business.

> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 01:20:00 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:03:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 09:44:50 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 6/1/2022 9:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 6/1/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Back in the day, I can't remember ever seeing a
>> >>> semi-automatic hunting
>> >>> rifle, at least not one being shot. A friend's father had
>> >>> a Remington
>> >>> Model 81, "wood master" or some such name. I remember
>> >>> seeing it on a
>> >>> gun rack in his father's den and thought it was sort of
>> >>> ungainly
>> >>> looking.
>> >>>
>> >>> But re automatic rifles. My grandfather, my father and I
>> >>> all hunted
>> >>> deer, in New Hampshire, over the years, and mostly they
>> >>> were "one
>> >>> shot, one deer". I remember my granddad showing me a 20
>> >>> round box of
>> >>> 38-55 cartridges that he said he'd been using for 10
>> >>> years... there
>> >>> were 10 cartridges left (:-)
>> >>
>> >> So can we finally put to rest the silly argument that AR-15s
>> >> and the like are appropriate for hunting deer?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >https://www.at3tactical.com/blogs/news/using-an-ar-15-for-hunting
>> >
>> >Concludes excellent for feral hogs, limited by range for deer.
>> I had some sort of "Uncle", on my mother's side of the family who
>> lived out in the woods somewhere and ate venison (deer meat) year
>> round. Killed them with a .22 rim fire rifle. Said something like,
>> "why not when it works?"
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>I suspect your "Uncle" was pulling your chain. Even 50-60-70 years ago, hunters knew the appropriate caliber to use for various size game. And the 22 Long Rifle was not appropriate for anything over small game. Rabbits, squirrels, foxes, raccoons, opossums. Unless you were a world class marksman, target shooter, who could make a head shot at any distance.

I told you he was a "professional" and ate venison all year round.
Hunting, as he described it was to put down a "Salt Lick", usually
near a stream and then sit there and shoot a deer in the head when
they come.

I've never actually done it but I have seen salt licks put down for
cattle and I can assure you that there will be deer tracks all around
them so the theory is valid.

As for killing power? Well
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bella-twin-the-22-used-to-take-the-1953-world-record-grizzly-and-more/#axzz7V2qPzZS3
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/10/bear-attacks-and-20-instances-of-22-rimfire-used-for-survival/#axzz7V2qPzZS3
https://www.powelltribune.com/stories/casper-man-pays-25k-for-accidentally-killing-grizzly-bear,17152

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 01:33:44 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:18:36 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:35:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 6/1/2022 10:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 6/1/2022 9:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 6/1/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Back in the day, I can't remember ever seeing a
>> >>>> semi-automatic hunting
>> >>>> rifle, at least not one being shot. A friend's father had
>> >>>> a Remington
>> >>>> Model 81, "wood master" or some such name. I remember
>> >>>> seeing it on a
>> >>>> gun rack in his father's den and thought it was sort of
>> >>>> ungainly
>> >>>> looking.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But re automatic rifles. My grandfather, my father and I
>> >>>> all hunted
>> >>>> deer, in New Hampshire, over the years, and mostly they
>> >>>> were "one
>> >>>> shot, one deer". I remember my granddad showing me a 20
>> >>>> round box of
>> >>>> 38-55 cartridges that he said he'd been using for 10
>> >>>> years... there
>> >>>> were 10 cartridges left (:-)
>> >>>
>> >>> So can we finally put to rest the silly argument that AR-15s
>> >>> and the like are appropriate for hunting deer?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> https://www.at3tactical.com/blogs/news/using-an-ar-15-for-hunting
>> >>
>> >> Concludes excellent for feral hogs, limited by range for deer.
>> >
>> >Again, click bait for AR fetishists looking to justify their toy.
>> >
>> > From that site: "The same rifle that will allow you to hunt can also be
>> >used for training on the range, or plinking, and the rifles also are a
>> >go-to for self-defense."
>> >
>> >Give me a break! Any gun can be used for "training on the range" or
>> >"plinking." And who in hell needs an AR for self defense? Are they
>> >defending themselves from infantry attack? How often does that happen?
>> >It's "Call of Duty" gaming fantasy!
>> >
>> >There are many other choices that allow killing pigs without killing
>> >kids, shoppers, concert goers, etc.
>> >
>> >https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/best-hog-hunting-guns/
>> And again the indomitable Frank flaunts his ignorance.
>>
>> " Any gun can be used for "training on the range" Totally incorrect.
>>
>> The course of fire for small bore (.22 rim fire) matches is totally
>> different from "big bore" matches. The range is different, "small
>> bore" matches are frequently fired indoors while big bore is
>> "outdoors".
>>
>> Certainly the ignorant may cry, "what's the difference" which may
>> sound intelligent until the wind starts blowing.
>>
>> And finally, there is the recoil. Shooting a .22 that just sort of
>> lays there and goes bang is totally different then, say a 30-06 which
>> goes bang and gives you a good firm nudge on the shoulder.
>>
>> But I suppose, to paraphrase someone or another, "The ignorant do rush
>> in where the intelligent fear to tread".
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Most, not all, of training is accuracy. So lining up the sights and hitting the target is most important. Controlling your breathing. Repeating the same motions over and over again. Which is identical no matter which caliber is used. You can easily, and better, do that with a 22 Long Rifle cartridge than a high powered center fire cartridge. Cheaper ammo, and less recoil. So you can practice far more rounds with the 22LR. Yes, you do have to fire the bigger caliber rifle to become used to the recoil and react accordingly after pulling the trigger. But you can fire a 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 ratio of the small caliber bullets. For practice and training.

Sort of. Yes, sight alignment, trigger control, and so on can be
practiced with a .22 perfectly well. In fact I used to do it with a
pellet gun I worked over the have a decent trigger pull, in my house
trailer.

But when it comes to a pistol match they are nearly two or three gun
matches. .22 and any center fire or .22, any center fire, and .45, and
I can assure you that in that case practice with the specified caliber
is important as recoil plays a very definite part of trying to fire 5
rounds in 10 seconds with, for example a .45 shooting service
ammunition (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 02:16:05 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 3:32:31 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 01:13:20 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:29:54 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of guns that they have never owned one always have the greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal of energy.
>> >> >
>> >> >Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
>> >> >considered unethical.
>> >> >
>> >> >Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with a
>> >> >heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
>> >> >
>> >> >IOW, lay it on thick.
>> >> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
>> >> 2nd paragraph
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> >A quote from your link:
>> >"If a .22 inch rim-fire rifle is to be used for killing livestock, the muzzle should be held from 5-25cm away from the animal’s forehead"
>> >5-25cm is 2-10 inches. Point blank range. And later in the paragraph it talks about the "knackerman". Humanely killing domestic, livestock, animals. A .22 Long Rifle cartridge is a good weapon for this sort of work.
>> Yup, and I answered that in detail in another post, but basically you
>> shoot "critters" in the head at short ranges so You don't want to
>> miss. Would you want to buy steaks all shoot full of bullet holes (:-)
>> >At the end of the article it has this:
>> >"*in England and Wales, under the Deer Act 1991, it is illegal under any circumstances to shoot deer with a rifle of less than .240 calibre. Anyone doing so may be liable to prosecution."
>> >Apparently in England they do not even allow the .223 Remington, 5.56mm NATO, round to be used for hunting deer. England requires a minimum of a .243 Winchester cartridge for deer. They certainly do not allow 22 Long Rifle cartridges for deer. No one on earth would allow that. So its no surprise that our Tommy boy is bragging about doing it.
>> I can't say for the U.K. but I posted a slew of references to people
>> shooting large creatures with a .22 rim fire at some distance and in
>> fact it is the most common murder weapon in. Was it New Zealand?
>> Somewhere down there.
>
>I answered the Australia and New Zealand post in another reply.
>
>
>>
>> I hesitate to use my own experience but I did have some sort of
>> "Uncle" on my mother's side of the family who lived out in the wilds
>> of New Hampshire and ate venison all year. He said that he used
>> nothing but a .22 rim fire rifle... "just shoot 'em in the head".
>
>Yes. Just shoot them in the head. As every gun aficionado knows, accuracy is the most important criteria. The caliber or man stopping power of a gun is completely irrelevant if you place the bullet in the right spot. You could kill elephants with a 22 rimfire if you shot the elephant in the eye and at the right angle so the bullet went into the elephant's brain. But as you have probably seen at various shooting competitions, not everyone always hits dead center in the bullseye. And during the recent Winter Olympics during the biathalon competition, the expert marksman skiers did not always hit the target. They missed sometimes. And I am pretty sure those marksman are 100 times better than a regular expert. And at the Olympics during the summer there is some kind of target shooting competition too I believe. Not every shooter scores a perfect 100% score every time. They miss a little bit too. So "experts" miss. And you're arguing non-experts never miss?

You are running all around Robin Hood's barn with your argument.

Certainly experts "miss" at times. I remember meeting the Air Force,
Captain, I think he was then, that shot the first perfect score in a
..22 "National Match Course - 30 shots, 300 perfect score. and one of
the group asked him if he ever missed and he said, "No he never missed
but he had shot 299 a lot of times before his 300 record.
Yes he missed. By a fraction of an inch. If it was your head he was
shooting at any one of the shots would have killed you.

Have you ever attended a formal pistol, or rifle for that matter,
match and watch competent shooters?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 01:58:20 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:53:38 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:23:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of guns that they have never owned one always have the greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal of energy.
>> >> >
>> >> >Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
>> >> >considered unethical.
>> >> >
>> >> >Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with a
>> >> >heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
>> >> >
>> >> >IOW, lay it on thick.
>> >> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
>> >> 2nd paragraph
>> >
>> >From that page: "The .22 inch rim-fire are usually used for vermin control (rats and rabbits) but can be used effectively, when loaded with the correct ammunition, to kill young cattle, horses, sheep, deer*, goats, and pigs up to 100kg, when shooting from a short distance (from 5-25cm away)."
>> >
>> >You're trolling , John. Executing or slaughtering is not hunting. Do you suppose Tom got within 25cm of a deer?
>> >
>> >- Frank Krygowski
>> But of course when you are killing critters at a slaughter house you
>> get right up close. After all the further way the better chance you
>> have to "miss" the target which is hardly humane and, of course, a lot
>> of people would decline to buy a steak with a bullet hole in it.
>>
>> And to preclude any of your future foolishness you might want to look
>> at:
>> https://shootersden2.com/post/2018/11/08/how-far-will-a-22-lr-bullet-kill
>> "a 22 round CAN kill as far out as you can hit a target which in near
>> perfect conditions can go as far out as 440 yards or so."
>> https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4276920/
>> " as a matter of fact I have killed a number of Javalinas at 150 and
>> 200 yards with std hollow points and a few coyotes..I have killed deer
>> in the more open country on my dads ranch in old Mexico at up to about
>> 75 or 100 yards on a few ocassions and with shoulder shots."
>> https://www.gunpolicy.org/documents/5561-22-calibre-rabbit-rifles-kill-more-people-than-any-other/file
>> Research Studies, Australia and New Zealand
>> In Brisbane, .22 calibre rifles were used in 66% of gun suicides and
>> 55% of gun homicides
>> In New South Wales, 76% of all guns used in suicide were .22 calibre
>> rifles
>> Throughout Australia, .22 calibre rifles were used to kill 43% of
>> firearm homicide victims, making this the gun most commonly used in
>> murder and manslaughter shootings
>> In Auckland, New Zealand, .22 calibre weapons were used in 46% of all
>> gun deaths -- more
>> than any other firearm (7)
>> Throughout New Zealand, 32.5% of firearm homicide victims were killed
>> with a .22 calibre rimfire rifle; 20% with a semi-automatic .22 rifle
>> and the remaining 12.5% with a single-action .22 rifle. Guns of this
>> calibre were the most common type used in murder and manslaughter
>
>John, I am worried you are becoming more Tommy like.
>
>https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/total_number_of_gun_deaths
>https://www.timescall.com/2021/07/12/randall-upton-look-at-the-facts-about-gun-deaths-in-australia-u-s/
>"In 2019 in Australia, there were 229 gun deaths, excluding from suicides. In the United States for the same time frame, there were 19,379 gun deaths, excluding from suicides. The vast difference appears in statistics on annual firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population. In Australia in 2019, the figure for gun deaths by homicide and suicide was 0.88. In the US, the figure for 2017 was 12.21. In other words, the per-capita rate in Australia was 14 times less than the rate in the U.S."
>
>229 gun deaths/murders in Australia in 2019. 229. 229. 229. 229. 229.
>
>As for New Zealand.
>https://www.npr.org/2019/03/15/703737499/in-new-zealand-mass-shootings-are-very-rare
>"According to New Zealand Police, there were 69 total murders with a firearm between 2008 and 2017."
>In the whole F-CKING country of New Zealand, there were 69 gun murders in 10 years. Before the above big mass murder.
>https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/New-Zealand/United-States/Crime
>New Zealand Murders with firearms per million 2.53
>USA Murders with firearms per million 32.57
>
>Australia and New Zealand implemented extensive gun restrictions after their respective mass shootings. No semi auto rifles allowed. Gun buybacks. Etc. So the 22 rimfire guns are really the only guns left in the countries. Sort of.
>
>Why on earth are you talking about Australia and New Zealand? Are you holding them up as good examples of what can be achieved?
>
>Or are you just dwelling upon this 22 rimfire cartridge? No one on earth is arguing that a 22 Long Rifle or 22 Long or even 22 Short cannot kill a human being. Especially if you put a 22 rifle in your mouth and use a stick to push the trigger. Suicide.
>

Replying to Franks assertion,

"Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
considered unethical.
Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with
a heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously? "

And point out that the .22 rim fire is really not a toy. and people do
kill deer with a .22, in fact they kill bears with a .22.

and people.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 6/1/2022 10:53 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:23:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of guns that they have never owned one always have the greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal of energy.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally
>>>> considered unethical.
>>>>
>>>> Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take your .22 deer with a
>>>> heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
>>>>
>>>> IOW, lay it on thick.
>>> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
>>> 2nd paragraph
>>
>>From that page: "The .22 inch rim-fire are usually used for vermin control (rats and rabbits) but can be used effectively, when loaded with the correct ammunition, to kill young cattle, horses, sheep, deer*, goats, and pigs up to 100kg, when shooting from a short distance (from 5-25cm away)."
>>
>> You're trolling , John. Executing or slaughtering is not hunting. Do you suppose Tom got within 25cm of a deer?
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> But of course when you are killing critters at a slaughter house you
> get right up close. After all the further way the better chance you
> have to "miss" the target which is hardly humane and, of course, a lot
> of people would decline to buy a steak with a bullet hole in it.
>
> And to preclude any of your future foolishness you might want to look
> at:
> https://shootersden2.com/post/2018/11/08/how-far-will-a-22-lr-bullet-kill
> "a 22 round CAN kill as far out as you can hit a target which in near
> perfect conditions can go as far out as 440 yards or so."
> https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4276920/
> " as a matter of fact I have killed a number of Javalinas at 150 and
> 200 yards with std hollow points and a few coyotes..I have killed deer
> in the more open country on my dads ranch in old Mexico at up to about
> 75 or 100 yards on a few ocassions and with shoulder shots."

Most of the .22 hunter anecdotes on the page you cited had to do with
much smaller animals than deer: woodchucks, ground squirrels, chipmunks,
rabbits. There were a couple accounts of killing deer with 22LR in
Mexico, or poachers using them while spotlighting deer.

One response was "Sure, if you're willing to adapt the ethical standards
of a poacher."

Again, my statement was NOT that hunting deer with a 22LR was
impossible. My statement was that "Nobody with any sense hunts deer with
a .22LR. It's universally considered unethical."

From
https://www.urbanadventure.org/why-is-it-illegal-to-hunt-deer-with-a-22/ :
"It is unethical and inhumane.

"Primarily, using a .22 for hunting deer is unethical. ...

"A .22 shot will most likely result in the deer dying a slow yet very
agonizing death. It is sure is not ethical to let the deer suffer that
way. ...

"Almost no state in the United States would allow any person to hunt
deer using a .22."

You might convince me to make allowances for very poor people hunting
for meat in Mexico. You're not going to get me to make allowances for
Tom's wild claims.

And let me note that you are quick to recognize Tom's foolishness on
almost any topic. But when it comes to guns, you suddenly treat him as
an ally.

You're thinking like Tom. That should give you pause.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/2/2022 6:05 AM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> You are running all around Robin Hood's barn with your argument.

That's because you led the argument there.

Tom claimed he hunted deer with a .22 LR. As I said, that's unethical
and almost always illegal in the U.S. If necessary, I can link to a
summary of states' relevant hunting regulations; but it shouldn't be
necessary.

Tell us, John, have you hunted deer using a .22 LR? Yes or no, please.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/1/2022 6:37 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 10:34:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/1/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Back in the day, I can't remember ever seeing a semi-automatic hunting
>>> rifle, at least not one being shot. A friend's father had a Remington
>>> Model 81, "wood master" or some such name. I remember seeing it on a
>>> gun rack in his father's den and thought it was sort of ungainly
>>> looking.
>>>
>>> But re automatic rifles. My grandfather, my father and I all hunted
>>> deer, in New Hampshire, over the years, and mostly they were "one
>>> shot, one deer". I remember my granddad showing me a 20 round box of
>>> 38-55 cartridges that he said he'd been using for 10 years... there
>>> were 10 cartridges left (:-)
>>
>> So can we finally put to rest the silly argument that AR-15s and the
>> like are appropriate for hunting deer?
>
> And once again ignorance is flaunted.
>
> Well, my grandfather was born in 1883 and started hunting when he was
> a young man. No AR's were available.

:-)

So far, you've got today's award for "Totally Irrelevant Anecdote Used
To Deflect A Logical Argument." Has Tom been coaching you?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/2/2022 4:20 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:03:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>
>> I had some sort of "Uncle", on my mother's side of the family who
>> lived out in the woods somewhere and ate venison (deer meat) year
>> round. Killed them with a .22 rim fire rifle. Said something like,
>> "why not when it works?"
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> I suspect your "Uncle" was pulling your chain. Even 50-60-70 years ago, hunters knew the appropriate caliber to use for various size game. And the 22 Long Rifle was not appropriate for anything over small game. Rabbits, squirrels, foxes, raccoons, opossums. Unless you were a world class marksman, target shooter, who could make a head shot at any distance.

I don't think even a head shot with a .22 guarantees a clean kill for a
deer, at least beyond point blank range. There's a lot of bone
protecting the brain and brain stem.

I don't think it's impossible; but I do think hunting deer with a .22 is
unethical and usually illegal.

If John's uncle was eating venison year round, he was probably poaching.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/2/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/1/2022 10:53 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:23:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B.
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of
>>>>>> guns that they have never owned one always have the
>>>>>> greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver
>>>>>> hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate
>>>>>> with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal
>>>>>> of energy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's
>>>>> universally
>>>>> considered unethical.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take
>>>>> your .22 deer with a
>>>>> heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
>>>>>
>>>>> IOW, lay it on thick.
>>>> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
>>>>
>>>> 2nd paragraph
>>>
>>> From that page: "The .22 inch rim-fire are usually used
>>> for vermin control (rats and rabbits) but can be used
>>> effectively, when loaded with the correct ammunition, to
>>> kill young cattle, horses, sheep, deer*, goats, and pigs
>>> up to 100kg, when shooting from a short distance (from
>>> 5-25cm away)."
>>> You're trolling , John. Executing or slaughtering is not
>>> hunting. Do you suppose Tom got within 25cm of a deer?
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> But of course when you are killing critters at a slaughter
>> house you
>> get right up close. After all the further way the better
>> chance you
>> have to "miss" the target which is hardly humane and, of
>> course, a lot
>> of people would decline to buy a steak with a bullet hole
>> in it.
>>
>> And to preclude any of your future foolishness you might
>> want to look
>> at:
>> https://shootersden2.com/post/2018/11/08/how-far-will-a-22-lr-bullet-kill
>>
>> "a 22 round CAN kill as far out as you can hit a target
>> which in near
>> perfect conditions can go as far out as 440 yards or so."
>> https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4276920/
>>
>> " as a matter of fact I have killed a number of Javalinas
>> at 150 and
>> 200 yards with std hollow points and a few coyotes..I have
>> killed deer
>> in the more open country on my dads ranch in old Mexico at
>> up to about
>> 75 or 100 yards on a few ocassions and with shoulder shots."
>
> Most of the .22 hunter anecdotes on the page you cited had
> to do with much smaller animals than deer: woodchucks,
> ground squirrels, chipmunks, rabbits. There were a couple
> accounts of killing deer with 22LR in Mexico, or poachers
> using them while spotlighting deer.
>
> One response was "Sure, if you're willing to adapt the
> ethical standards of a poacher."
>
> Again, my statement was NOT that hunting deer with a 22LR
> was impossible. My statement was that "Nobody with any sense
> hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally considered
> unethical."
>
>
> From
> https://www.urbanadventure.org/why-is-it-illegal-to-hunt-deer-with-a-22/
> :
> "It is unethical and inhumane.
>
> "Primarily, using a .22 for hunting deer is unethical. ...
>
> "A .22 shot will most likely result in the deer dying a slow
> yet very agonizing death. It is sure is not ethical to let
> the deer suffer that way. ...
>
> "Almost no state in the United States would allow any person
> to hunt deer using a .22."
>
>
> You might convince me to make allowances for very poor
> people hunting for meat in Mexico. You're not going to get
> me to make allowances for Tom's wild claims.
>
> And let me note that you are quick to recognize Tom's
> foolishness on almost any topic. But when it comes to guns,
> you suddenly treat him as an ally.
>
> You're thinking like Tom. That should give you pause.
>
>

Not sure how this turned to .22 rimfire, but that happens to
be the only lawful personal firearm in Mexico, single shot,
with thoroughly researched permit, sold at that nation's one
and only outlet, on an Army base. Not a new law either[1].

Which mostly satisfies the policy points for firearms of the
more restrictive advocates in USA.

So how's that working out for Mexico?

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/113/rate_of_all_gun_deaths_per_100_000_people/194

Roughly 50% higher firearms death rate then we have here.

[1]more on that:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/04/16/mexicos-gun-control-laws-a-model-for-the-united-states/

https://www.mexperience.com/mexicos-strict-gun-laws/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/2/2022 11:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/2/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/1/2022 10:53 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:23:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B.
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of
>>>>>>> guns that they have never owned one always have the
>>>>>>> greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver
>>>>>>> hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate
>>>>>>> with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal
>>>>>>> of energy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's
>>>>>> universally
>>>>>> considered unethical.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take
>>>>>> your .22 deer with a
>>>>>> heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IOW, lay it on thick.
>>>>> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2nd paragraph
>>>>
>>>> From that page: "The .22 inch rim-fire are usually used
>>>> for vermin control (rats and rabbits) but can be used
>>>> effectively, when loaded with the correct ammunition, to
>>>> kill young cattle, horses, sheep, deer*, goats, and pigs
>>>> up to 100kg, when shooting from a short distance (from
>>>> 5-25cm away)."
>>>> You're trolling , John. Executing or slaughtering is not
>>>> hunting. Do you suppose Tom got within 25cm of a deer?
>>>>
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> But of course when you are killing critters at a slaughter
>>> house you
>>> get right up close.  After all the further way the better
>>> chance you
>>> have to "miss" the target which is hardly humane and, of
>>> course, a lot
>>> of people would decline to buy a steak with a bullet hole
>>> in it.
>>>
>>> And to preclude any of your future foolishness you might
>>> want to look
>>> at:
>>> https://shootersden2.com/post/2018/11/08/how-far-will-a-22-lr-bullet-kill
>>>
>>>
>>> "a 22 round CAN kill as far out as you can hit a target
>>> which in near
>>> perfect conditions can go as far out as 440 yards or so."
>>> https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4276920/
>>>
>>> " as a matter of fact I have killed a number of Javalinas
>>> at 150 and
>>> 200 yards with std hollow points and a few coyotes..I have
>>> killed deer
>>> in the more open country on my dads ranch in old Mexico at
>>> up to about
>>> 75 or 100 yards on a few ocassions and with shoulder shots."
>>
>> Most of the .22 hunter anecdotes on the page you cited had
>> to do with much smaller animals than deer: woodchucks,
>> ground squirrels, chipmunks, rabbits. There were a couple
>> accounts of killing deer with 22LR in Mexico, or poachers
>> using them while spotlighting deer.
>>
>> One response was "Sure, if you're willing to adapt the
>> ethical standards of a poacher."
>>
>> Again, my statement was NOT that hunting deer with a 22LR
>> was impossible. My statement was that "Nobody with any sense
>> hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally considered
>> unethical."
>>
>>
>>  From
>> https://www.urbanadventure.org/why-is-it-illegal-to-hunt-deer-with-a-22/
>> :
>> "It is unethical and inhumane.
>>
>> "Primarily, using a .22 for hunting deer is unethical. ...
>>
>> "A .22 shot will most likely result in the deer dying a slow
>> yet very agonizing death. It is sure is not ethical to let
>> the deer suffer that way. ...
>>
>> "Almost no state in the United States would allow any person
>> to hunt deer using a .22."
>>
>>
>> You might convince me to make allowances for very poor
>> people hunting for meat in Mexico. You're not going to get
>> me to make allowances for Tom's wild claims.
>>
>> And let me note that you are quick to recognize Tom's
>> foolishness on almost any topic. But when it comes to guns,
>> you suddenly treat him as an ally.
>>
>> You're thinking like Tom. That should give you pause.
>>
>>
>
> Not sure how this turned to .22 rimfire, but that happens to be the only
> lawful personal firearm in Mexico, single shot, with thoroughly
> researched permit, sold at that nation's one and only outlet, on an Army
> base. Not a new law either[1].
>
> Which mostly satisfies the policy points for firearms of the more
> restrictive advocates in USA.
>
> So how's that working out for Mexico?

It's working out poorly because the weak, disfunctional Mexican
government can't find a way to stop the flood of guns from the U.S.

Let's examine the other border. How's it working out for Canada? Hmm.
Very well, it seems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 8:34:43 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/2/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 6/1/2022 10:53 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:23:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B.
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 11:48:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 6/1/2022 11:02 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why do you suppose that people who are so afraid of
> >>>>>> guns that they have never owned one always have the
> >>>>>> greatest knowledge of what they are good for? I haver
> >>>>>> hunted deer with a .22 LR. You have to be accurate
> >>>>>> with a round like that which doesn't have a great deal
> >>>>>> of energy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nobody with any sense hunts deer with a .22LR. It's
> >>>>> universally
> >>>>> considered unethical.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tell us about your excellent accuracy. Did you take
> >>>>> your .22 deer with a
> >>>>> heart shot? Did it drop instantaneously?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> IOW, lay it on thick.
> >>>> https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/rifle
> >>>>
> >>>> 2nd paragraph
> >>>
> >>> From that page: "The .22 inch rim-fire are usually used
> >>> for vermin control (rats and rabbits) but can be used
> >>> effectively, when loaded with the correct ammunition, to
> >>> kill young cattle, horses, sheep, deer*, goats, and pigs
> >>> up to 100kg, when shooting from a short distance (from
> >>> 5-25cm away)."
> >>> You're trolling , John. Executing or slaughtering is not
> >>> hunting. Do you suppose Tom got within 25cm of a deer?
> >>>
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >> But of course when you are killing critters at a slaughter
> >> house you
> >> get right up close. After all the further way the better
> >> chance you
> >> have to "miss" the target which is hardly humane and, of
> >> course, a lot
> >> of people would decline to buy a steak with a bullet hole
> >> in it.
> >>
> >> And to preclude any of your future foolishness you might
> >> want to look
> >> at:
> >> https://shootersden2.com/post/2018/11/08/how-far-will-a-22-lr-bullet-kill
> >>
> >> "a 22 round CAN kill as far out as you can hit a target
> >> which in near
> >> perfect conditions can go as far out as 440 yards or so."
> >> https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4276920/
> >>
> >> " as a matter of fact I have killed a number of Javalinas
> >> at 150 and
> >> 200 yards with std hollow points and a few coyotes..I have
> >> killed deer
> >> in the more open country on my dads ranch in old Mexico at
> >> up to about
> >> 75 or 100 yards on a few ocassions and with shoulder shots."
> >
> > Most of the .22 hunter anecdotes on the page you cited had
> > to do with much smaller animals than deer: woodchucks,
> > ground squirrels, chipmunks, rabbits. There were a couple
> > accounts of killing deer with 22LR in Mexico, or poachers
> > using them while spotlighting deer.
> >
> > One response was "Sure, if you're willing to adapt the
> > ethical standards of a poacher."
> >
> > Again, my statement was NOT that hunting deer with a 22LR
> > was impossible. My statement was that "Nobody with any sense
> > hunts deer with a .22LR. It's universally considered
> > unethical."
> >
> >
> > From
> > https://www.urbanadventure.org/why-is-it-illegal-to-hunt-deer-with-a-22/
> > :
> > "It is unethical and inhumane.
> >
> > "Primarily, using a .22 for hunting deer is unethical. ...
> >
> > "A .22 shot will most likely result in the deer dying a slow
> > yet very agonizing death. It is sure is not ethical to let
> > the deer suffer that way. ...
> >
> > "Almost no state in the United States would allow any person
> > to hunt deer using a .22."
> >
> >
> > You might convince me to make allowances for very poor
> > people hunting for meat in Mexico. You're not going to get
> > me to make allowances for Tom's wild claims.
> >
> > And let me note that you are quick to recognize Tom's
> > foolishness on almost any topic. But when it comes to guns,
> > you suddenly treat him as an ally.
> >
> > You're thinking like Tom. That should give you pause.
> >
> >
> Not sure how this turned to .22 rimfire, but that happens to
> be the only lawful personal firearm in Mexico, single shot,
> with thoroughly researched permit, sold at that nation's one
> and only outlet, on an Army base. Not a new law either[1].
>
> Which mostly satisfies the policy points for firearms of the
> more restrictive advocates in USA.
>
> So how's that working out for Mexico?
>
> https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/113/rate_of_all_gun_deaths_per_100_000_people/194
>
> Roughly 50% higher firearms death rate then we have here.
>
> [1]more on that:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/04/16/mexicos-gun-control-laws-a-model-for-the-united-states/
>
> https://www.mexperience.com/mexicos-strict-gun-laws/

Frank is nothing more than a mindless tool of the left, He knows absolutely nothing about guns which he believes gives him not only the knowledge but the right to talk about them. This is precisely what I was talking about when he claimed to be an engineer because he had a degree. His belief that no practical knowledge grants him the right to pretend to know something is just the sort of moronish thing that is wrong with the Democrat Party. Before that the Democrats were nothing more than racist thugs. Now they are powerful racist thugs that WILL be stopped. I have faced his kind down my entire life and will continue to do so until my death. Scum needs to know what they are. November can't come fast enough for this country to show what they think of Frank and his bosom buddies. I want to see him talking about income disparity after November. I want him to explain why all of the Congressional salary increases and benefit increases came from the Democrats. Seems like they don't care about disparity when it benefits them.

On 6/2/2022 12:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Frank is nothing more than a mindless tool of the left, He knows absolutely nothing about guns ...

Says the guy who went deer hunting with a .22 LR.

Tom: "Oh wait, no, it was a different gun. I remembered wrong AGAIN! I
should stop posting and looking like a fool."

OK, that last part was fantasy. :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 11:31:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/2/2022 4:20 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 6:03:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> I had some sort of "Uncle", on my mother's side of the family who
>>> lived out in the woods somewhere and ate venison (deer meat) year
>>> round. Killed them with a .22 rim fire rifle. Said something like,
>>> "why not when it works?"
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> I suspect your "Uncle" was pulling your chain. Even 50-60-70 years ago, hunters knew the appropriate caliber to use for various size game. And the 22 Long Rifle was not appropriate for anything over small game. Rabbits, squirrels, foxes, raccoons, opossums. Unless you were a world class marksman, target shooter, who could make a head shot at any distance.
>
>I don't think even a head shot with a .22 guarantees a clean kill for a
>deer, at least beyond point blank range. There's a lot of bone
>protecting the brain and brain stem.

And you are an experienced hunter? Killed many creatures with various
caliber firearms?

From your own posts that doesn't seem to be true so your suppositions
are just that , notions of an individual who has no experience or
personal knowledge of what he is talking about.

>I don't think it's impossible; but I do think hunting deer with a .22 is
>unethical and usually illegal.

Ethical? Hunting? The usual recommendation for shooting deer, for
example, is to try for a side on shot and aim a bit back from their
shoulder and even if you miss the heart you will damage their lungs so
that they will eventually die.

>
>If John's uncle was eating venison year round, he was probably poaching.

Of course he was. How else could someone eat venison all year round.
Which has little bearing on his shooting 'em in the head.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 11:24:28 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/1/2022 6:37 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 10:34:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/1/2022 1:26 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Back in the day, I can't remember ever seeing a semi-automatic hunting
>>>> rifle, at least not one being shot. A friend's father had a Remington
>>>> Model 81, "wood master" or some such name. I remember seeing it on a
>>>> gun rack in his father's den and thought it was sort of ungainly
>>>> looking.
>>>>
>>>> But re automatic rifles. My grandfather, my father and I all hunted
>>>> deer, in New Hampshire, over the years, and mostly they were "one
>>>> shot, one deer". I remember my granddad showing me a 20 round box of
>>>> 38-55 cartridges that he said he'd been using for 10 years... there
>>>> were 10 cartridges left (:-)
>>>
>>> So can we finally put to rest the silly argument that AR-15s and the
>>> like are appropriate for hunting deer?
>>
>> And once again ignorance is flaunted.
>>
>> Well, my grandfather was born in 1883 and started hunting when he was
>> a young man. No AR's were available.
>
>:-)
>
>So far, you've got today's award for "Totally Irrelevant Anecdote Used
>To Deflect A Logical Argument." Has Tom been coaching you?

Just trying to join the crowd, After all you talk, and talk, and talk
about them there nasty AR type firearms.... which are used in 1.5% of
the murders in the U.S. (2015).
If you can be so ridiculous why do you deny it for others?
--
Cheers,

John B.