On Sun, 22 May 2022 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>You DO understand that Biden's inflation make a mere 11 billion dollars meaningless don't you? Biden left 10 times that amount in Afghanistan.

10 times $11 billion? I don't think it was quite so much.

"US left behind $7 billion of military equipment in Afghanistan after
2021 withdrawal, Pentagon report says"
<https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-left-behind/index.html>
"The US gave a total of $18.6 billion of equipment to the Afghan
National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF) from 2005 to August 2021,
according to the report. Of that total, equipment worth $7.12 billion
remained in Afghanistan after the US withdrawal was completed on
August 30, 2021."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:10:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:55:09 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>> >>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>> >>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>> >>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>> >>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>> >>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>> >>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>> >>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>> >>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>> >>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>> >>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>> >>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>> >>>>>>>>>> until july.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>> >>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>> >>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>> >>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>> >>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>> >>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>> >>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>> >>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>> >>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>> >>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>> >>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>> >>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>> >>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>> >>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>> >>>>>>>>> we got here:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>> >>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>> >>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>> >>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>> >>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>> >>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>> >>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>> >>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>> >>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>> >>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>> >>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>> >>>>>> unhelpful.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>> >>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>> >>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>> >>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>> >>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>> >>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>> >>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>> >>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>> >>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>> >>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>> >>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>> >>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>> >>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>> >>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>> >>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>> >>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>> >>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>> >>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>> >>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>> >>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>> >>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>> >>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>> >>>>> running for the border in terror.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>> >>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>> >>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>> >>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>> >>> "in service newspaper").
>> >>>
>> >>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>> >>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>> >>> as illegal immigrants.
>> >>>
>> >>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>> >>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>> >>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>> >>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>> >>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>> >>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>> >>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>> >>>
>> >>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>> >>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>> >>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>> >> first engagement.
>> >
>> > But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
>> > fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
>> > are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
>> >
>> Embrace change. I recently received Bianchis from the first
>> new Bianchi factory built in Italy in decades. Nice product BTW.
>>
>> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
>> of concept' as it were.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>There was no bioweapon and I've shown the CDC statistics many times. What we've had is a million overall deaths from the lockdowns, Then they INSINUATE that these extra deaths were from covid. From the start of 2020 until now we've had 300,000 excess deaths from Fentanyl alone. Being greatly overweight and drinking to excess has killed hundreds of thousands as well.
>
>IF you look at the movies you detect something that never occurred before Fauci's false pandemic - EVERYONE IS DRINKING WHISKY and SMOKING which I thought was against the law, Is it any surprise that the group most heavily effected by this propaganda are doing the same thing and dying in droves from it?

On 5/22/2022 5:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:55:09 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>>>> first engagement.
>>>
>>> But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
>>> fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
>>> are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
>>>
>> Embrace change. I recently received Bianchis from the first
>> new Bianchi factory built in Italy in decades. Nice product BTW.
>
> I am very surprised Bianchi opened a new bicycle factory in Italy. My only question is what level of bikes are they? Lower cost? Middle cost? Or upper end price? That will greatly affect my surprise.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
>> of concept' as it were.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 17:35:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 22 May 2022 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>You DO understand that Biden's inflation make a mere 11 billion dollars meaningless don't you? Biden left 10 times that amount in Afghanistan.
>
>10 times $11 billion? I don't think it was quite so much.
>
>"US left behind $7 billion of military equipment in Afghanistan after
>2021 withdrawal, Pentagon report says"
><https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-left-behind/index.html>
>"The US gave a total of $18.6 billion of equipment to the Afghan
>National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF) from 2005 to August 2021,
>according to the report. Of that total, equipment worth $7.12 billion
>remained in Afghanistan after the US withdrawal was completed on
>August 30, 2021."

I've mentioned this before but the equipment was valued, for the
purpose of the News Article at either the original procurement cost or
the replacement cost. Not what a broken down "jeep" is worth after 20
years of use. And it also ignores the cost of freighting the damned
junk back to the U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/22/2022 6:26 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:33:46 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/22/2022 1:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2022 11:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
>>>> of concept' as it were.
>>>
>>> Odd test procedure for a "bioweapon": "Hey, let's unleash it
>>> on our own economy first!"
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The Chinese Communist Party is not uniquely evil. They may
>> be world-class feckless even by Major World Power standards.
>> Which are low:
>>
>> January 2022:
>> https://www.pennlive.com/news/2022/01/euthanasia-guidelines-followed-when-3-escaped-monkeys-were-killed-police.html
>> May 2022:
>> https://nypost.com/2022/05/22/biden-says-monkeypox-cases-something-to-be-concerned-about/
>>
>> Don't leave out the Russians:
>>
>> https://miningawareness.wordpress.com/2022/02/27/russia-bioweapons-program-soviet-and-post-soviet/
>>
>> or the British:
>> https://www.ucl.ac.uk/impact/case-studies/2014/dec/secret-science-chemical-and-biological-warfare-research-and-policy-britain
>>
>> An unique aspect of the Wuhan affair is the recently
>> released (FOIA) emails of upper management CDC panic to
>> destroy evidence when deaths were first publicized. US
>> government research and funding played significantly in
>> developing that novel virus.
>
> You skipped the USians.
> "The United States biological weapons program officially began in
> spring 1943 on orders from U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt. Research
> continued following World War II as the U.S. built up a large
> stockpile of biological agents and weapons.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_biological_weapons_program#Early_history_(1918%E2%80%931941)
> and Chemical Weapons?
> In 1990, on the heels of the Cold War, the United States possessed the
> world's second largest chemical weapons arsenal after Russia,
> consisting of more than 31,500 U.S. tons (28,577 MT) of lethal
> chemical agents and munitions.
> https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/us-chemical-weapons-stockpile
>

I assumed that was common knowledge already as Plum Island
becomes newsworthy every couple of years:

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/biology-fields/mystery-myth-reality-plum-island.htm

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/22/2022 7:31 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:46:09 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/21/2022 5:42 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>>>
>>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>>>> first engagement.
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>
>>> Defeat China? I am far more concerned about stopping the deaths from Covid-19. And eliminating the economic effects Covid has caused throughout the world. I am aware Covid started in China. And spread worldwide. Was it intentional? Maybe, maybe not. I'd go for the not. The leaders in China have some competent advisors. They would tell the leaders that destroying the world's economy is bad for China. No matter how much harm it does to everyone else, China will also suffer. China is interconnected with the world economically. Very few spouses commit spousal murder by pulling the spouse into a closet and setting off a hand grenade. Its not much benefit to kill yourself.
>>>
>>> As far as first engagement. Hopefully the world has learned from Covid. And will be better prepared for the next time something similar happens. But I'm not too hopeful a large portion of the USA has learned anything at all. So we would likely have a repeat exactly as bad the next time around. As for engaging China on other fronts. Such as the militarization of the South China Sea, and human rights, and trading, those conflicts will continue. And I am hopeful a good outcome can be achieved. Good for both sides and everyone.
>>>
>>> Unlike the Republicans who assume everything is a zero sum game. If you gain, then I must lose, So that is evil. I believe we all can gain together. Likely different amounts of gain. But all pluses for everyone. No one has to lose.
>>>
>>
>> You have that backwards IMHO.
>>
>> Statists believe in the socialist version of 'sharing',
>> i.e., forcibly redistributing limited resources all while
>> suppressing innovation, efficiency and growth. Classic
>> 'zero-sum' outlook.
>>
>> Classic liberals (now called conservatives) are more with Mr
>> Deng, "Let a thousand flowers bloom". Liberty with less
>> restriction makes everyone more prosperous and life more
>> meaningful for most.
>
> And while I don't know this from experience I am told that opening a
> business in China is easier, with far fewer restriction, then doing
> the same in the U.S.
>
>

On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:51:22 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/22/2022 6:26 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:33:46 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/22/2022 1:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 5/22/2022 11:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
>>>>> of concept' as it were.
>>>>
>>>> Odd test procedure for a "bioweapon": "Hey, let's unleash it
>>>> on our own economy first!"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Chinese Communist Party is not uniquely evil. They may
>>> be world-class feckless even by Major World Power standards.
>>> Which are low:
>>>
>>> January 2022:
>>> https://www.pennlive.com/news/2022/01/euthanasia-guidelines-followed-when-3-escaped-monkeys-were-killed-police.html
>>> May 2022:
>>> https://nypost.com/2022/05/22/biden-says-monkeypox-cases-something-to-be-concerned-about/
>>>
>>> Don't leave out the Russians:
>>>
>>> https://miningawareness.wordpress.com/2022/02/27/russia-bioweapons-program-soviet-and-post-soviet/
>>>
>>> or the British:
>>> https://www.ucl.ac.uk/impact/case-studies/2014/dec/secret-science-chemical-and-biological-warfare-research-and-policy-britain
>>>
>>> An unique aspect of the Wuhan affair is the recently
>>> released (FOIA) emails of upper management CDC panic to
>>> destroy evidence when deaths were first publicized. US
>>> government research and funding played significantly in
>>> developing that novel virus.
>>
>> You skipped the USians.
>> "The United States biological weapons program officially began in
>> spring 1943 on orders from U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt. Research
>> continued following World War II as the U.S. built up a large
>> stockpile of biological agents and weapons.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_biological_weapons_program#Early_history_(1918%E2%80%931941)
>> and Chemical Weapons?
>> In 1990, on the heels of the Cold War, the United States possessed the
>> world's second largest chemical weapons arsenal after Russia,
>> consisting of more than 31,500 U.S. tons (28,577 MT) of lethal
>> chemical agents and munitions.
>> https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/us-chemical-weapons-stockpile
>>
>
>I assumed that was common knowledge already as Plum Island
>becomes newsworthy every couple of years:
>
>https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/biology-fields/mystery-myth-reality-plum-island.htm

To paraphrase Will Rogers, "all I know is what I read in the news",
but reading the "news" it does appear that the USian is very poorly
informed (:-)

A bit different then Plum Island
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-admits-bio-weapons-tests/
https://www.businessinsider.com/military-government-secret-experiments-biological-chemical-weapons-2016-9
I suspect that CBS probably was correct however I have no idea who
"businessinsider" is or where they get their information.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:57:42 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/22/2022 7:31 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:46:09 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/21/2022 5:42 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>>>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>>>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>>>>> first engagement.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>
>>>> Defeat China? I am far more concerned about stopping the deaths from Covid-19. And eliminating the economic effects Covid has caused throughout the world. I am aware Covid started in China. And spread worldwide. Was it intentional? Maybe, maybe not. I'd go for the not. The leaders in China have some competent advisors. They would tell the leaders that destroying the world's economy is bad for China. No matter how much harm it does to everyone else, China will also suffer. China is interconnected with the world economically. Very few spouses commit spousal murder by pulling the spouse into a closet and setting off a hand grenade. Its not much benefit to kill yourself.
>>>>
>>>> As far as first engagement. Hopefully the world has learned from Covid. And will be better prepared for the next time something similar happens. But I'm not too hopeful a large portion of the USA has learned anything at all. So we would likely have a repeat exactly as bad the next time around. As for engaging China on other fronts. Such as the militarization of the South China Sea, and human rights, and trading, those conflicts will continue. And I am hopeful a good outcome can be achieved. Good for both sides and everyone.
>>>>
>>>> Unlike the Republicans who assume everything is a zero sum game. If you gain, then I must lose, So that is evil. I believe we all can gain together. Likely different amounts of gain. But all pluses for everyone. No one has to lose.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You have that backwards IMHO.
>>>
>>> Statists believe in the socialist version of 'sharing',
>>> i.e., forcibly redistributing limited resources all while
>>> suppressing innovation, efficiency and growth. Classic
>>> 'zero-sum' outlook.
>>>
>>> Classic liberals (now called conservatives) are more with Mr
>>> Deng, "Let a thousand flowers bloom". Liberty with less
>>> restriction makes everyone more prosperous and life more
>>> meaningful for most.
>>
>> And while I don't know this from experience I am told that opening a
>> business in China is easier, with far fewer restriction, then doing
>> the same in the U.S.
>>
>>
>
>I believe that.
>Note CCP is your partner whether you like it or not.
>
I'm sure.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:43 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:57:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 5/22/2022 7:31 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:46:09 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 5/21/2022 5:42 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >>>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >>>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant.. I waited
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >>>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> >>>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >>>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >>>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >>>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >>>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> >>>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> >>>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> >>>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> >>>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> >>>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> >>>>>>>>> unhelpful.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> >>>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> >>>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> >>>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> >>>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> >>>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> >>>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> >>>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> >>>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> >>>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> >>>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> >>>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> >>>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> >>>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> >>>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> >>>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> >>>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> >>>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> >>>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> >>>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> >>>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> >>>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> >>>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> >>>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> >>>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> >>>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> >>>>>> "in service newspaper").
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> >>>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> >>>>>> as illegal immigrants.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> >>>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> >>>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> >>>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> >>>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> >>>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> >>>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> >>>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> >>>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
> >>>>> first engagement.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>
> >>>> Defeat China? I am far more concerned about stopping the deaths from Covid-19. And eliminating the economic effects Covid has caused throughout the world. I am aware Covid started in China. And spread worldwide. Was it intentional? Maybe, maybe not. I'd go for the not. The leaders in China have some competent advisors. They would tell the leaders that destroying the world's economy is bad for China. No matter how much harm it does to everyone else, China will also suffer. China is interconnected with the world economically. Very few spouses commit spousal murder by pulling the spouse into a closet and setting off a hand grenade. Its not much benefit to kill yourself.
> >>>>
> >>>> As far as first engagement. Hopefully the world has learned from Covid. And will be better prepared for the next time something similar happens.. But I'm not too hopeful a large portion of the USA has learned anything at all. So we would likely have a repeat exactly as bad the next time around.. As for engaging China on other fronts. Such as the militarization of the South China Sea, and human rights, and trading, those conflicts will continue. And I am hopeful a good outcome can be achieved. Good for both sides and everyone.
> >>>>
> >>>> Unlike the Republicans who assume everything is a zero sum game. If you gain, then I must lose, So that is evil. I believe we all can gain together. Likely different amounts of gain. But all pluses for everyone. No one has to lose.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> You have that backwards IMHO.
> >>>
> >>> Statists believe in the socialist version of 'sharing',
> >>> i.e., forcibly redistributing limited resources all while
> >>> suppressing innovation, efficiency and growth. Classic
> >>> 'zero-sum' outlook.
> >>>
> >>> Classic liberals (now called conservatives) are more with Mr
> >>> Deng, "Let a thousand flowers bloom". Liberty with less
> >>> restriction makes everyone more prosperous and life more
> >>> meaningful for most.
> >>
> >> And while I don't know this from experience I am told that opening a
> >> business in China is easier, with far fewer restriction, then doing
> >> the same in the U.S.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I believe that.
> >Note CCP is your partner whether you like it or not.
> >
> I'm sure.
>
> But so is the U.S., or at least I read that you pay 21% in corporate
> taxes to your government.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:58:43 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>
>
> Here, I read that 90+ percent of the residents in Bangkok wear masks
> and you certainly cannot enter a Shopping Center, Mall, business
> building, or hospital here without a mask. But there is little or no
> grumbling about masks and I think I saw one person not wearing a mask
> in the last month or that I've been paying attention.

You obviously have a serious shortage of extreme right wingers.

OK if we ship you some?

- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 22 May 2022 20:38:47 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:58:43 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Here, I read that 90+ percent of the residents in Bangkok wear masks
>> and you certainly cannot enter a Shopping Center, Mall, business
>> building, or hospital here without a mask. But there is little or no
>> grumbling about masks and I think I saw one person not wearing a mask
>> in the last month or that I've been paying attention.
>
>You obviously have a serious shortage of extreme right wingers.
>
>OK if we ship you some?
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Well... we have"Right Wingers", or at least I guess that is what they
might be called... The news the news is reporting the "Democratic
election" of the new Bangkok "Governor", as the position is referred
to here. Previously the city governors were appointed by the central
government, who also appoints provincial "Governors". So, I suppose
that "the government" could be considered as Right Wing (:-)

But there is hope. We recently had demonstrations by students from one
of our very top of the scale universities, demanding that the P.M.
resign and the laws concern the Royal Person be amended.
Note here: "top of the scale university equates to rich folks kids."

But I wonder about the U.S. The Right Wing that seems to have
canonized Trump. A chap that assaults women in changing booths in a
department store.. in a changing booth for God's Sake! Combs his hair
over his bald spot, appears in some photos to wear a girdle and brags
that he can grab women by their "pussy".

Is the Right Wing epitome of American Manhood?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/22/2022 5:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You DO understand that Biden's inflation make a mere 11 billion dollars meaningless don't you? Biden left 10 times that amount in Afghanistan.
>
> 10 times $11 billion? I don't think it was quite so much.
>
> "US left behind $7 billion of military equipment in Afghanistan after
> 2021 withdrawal, Pentagon report says"
> <https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-left-behind/index.html>
> "The US gave a total of $18.6 billion of equipment to the Afghan
> National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF) from 2005 to August 2021,
> according to the report. Of that total, equipment worth $7.12 billion
> remained in Afghanistan after the US withdrawal was completed on
> August 30, 2021."

It was still a lot of money that Trump caused the U.S. to lose by making
the deal with Taliban to withdraw all U.S. troops by May 2021. Trump's
deal to end the war in Afghanistan left Biden with a terrible situation.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 23:47:12 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/22/2022 5:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You DO understand that Biden's inflation make a mere 11 billion dollars meaningless don't you? Biden left 10 times that amount in Afghanistan.
>>
>> 10 times $11 billion? I don't think it was quite so much.
>>
>> "US left behind $7 billion of military equipment in Afghanistan after
>> 2021 withdrawal, Pentagon report says"
>> <https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-left-behind/index.html>
>> "The US gave a total of $18.6 billion of equipment to the Afghan
>> National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF) from 2005 to August 2021,
>> according to the report. Of that total, equipment worth $7.12 billion
>> remained in Afghanistan after the US withdrawal was completed on
>> August 30, 2021."
>
>It was still a lot of money that Trump caused the U.S. to lose by making
>the deal with Taliban to withdraw all U.S. troops by May 2021. Trump's
>deal to end the war in Afghanistan left Biden with a terrible situation.

Yes, I've read that but I wonder.
We were once hired by Caterpillar, Singapore, to survey some
equipment and supplies abandoned, or left behind, when the U.S. left
Vietnam. The idea was that if any of it was usable then CAT would buy
it from the Vietnam government for cheap and rebuild it.

None of it was worth recovering. Some had been used and some looked as
though it had just sat there in the rain for years. I remember a large
warehouse full of CAT spares, but the roof had leaked and nothing was
worth salvaging.

I wonder how much of the left-behind supplies and equipment in
Afghanistan was the same.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/22/2022 3:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:55:09 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/21/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>>>> first engagement.
>>>
>>> But, but, but! If you defeat China then your business will, likely,
>>> fail as I read that something like 86% of bicycles sold in the U.S.
>>> are made in China Can you survive on 14% of your current sales (:-?)
>>>
>> Embrace change. I recently received Bianchis from the first
>> new Bianchi factory built in Italy in decades. Nice product BTW.
>
> I am very surprised Bianchi opened a new bicycle factory in Italy. My only question is what level of bikes are they? Lower cost? Middle cost? Or upper end price? That will greatly affect my surprise.

On 5/22/2022 10:38 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:46:43 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:57:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/22/2022 7:31 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:46:09 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/21/2022 5:42 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>>>>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>>>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>>>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>>>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>>>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>>>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>>>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>>>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>>>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>>>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>>>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>>>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>>>>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>>>>>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>>>>>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>>>>>>>> "in service newspaper").
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>>>>>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>>>>>>>> as illegal immigrants.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>>>>>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>>>>>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>>>>>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>>>>>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>>>>>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>>>>>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>>>>>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>>>>>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>>>>>>> first engagement.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Defeat China? I am far more concerned about stopping the deaths from Covid-19. And eliminating the economic effects Covid has caused throughout the world. I am aware Covid started in China. And spread worldwide. Was it intentional? Maybe, maybe not. I'd go for the not. The leaders in China have some competent advisors. They would tell the leaders that destroying the world's economy is bad for China. No matter how much harm it does to everyone else, China will also suffer. China is interconnected with the world economically. Very few spouses commit spousal murder by pulling the spouse into a closet and setting off a hand grenade. Its not much benefit to kill yourself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as first engagement. Hopefully the world has learned from Covid. And will be better prepared for the next time something similar happens. But I'm not too hopeful a large portion of the USA has learned anything at all. So we would likely have a repeat exactly as bad the next time around. As for engaging China on other fronts. Such as the militarization of the South China Sea, and human rights, and trading, those conflicts will continue. And I am hopeful a good outcome can be achieved. Good for both sides and everyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unlike the Republicans who assume everything is a zero sum game. If you gain, then I must lose, So that is evil. I believe we all can gain together. Likely different amounts of gain. But all pluses for everyone. No one has to lose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You have that backwards IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Statists believe in the socialist version of 'sharing',
>>>>> i.e., forcibly redistributing limited resources all while
>>>>> suppressing innovation, efficiency and growth. Classic
>>>>> 'zero-sum' outlook.
>>>>>
>>>>> Classic liberals (now called conservatives) are more with Mr
>>>>> Deng, "Let a thousand flowers bloom". Liberty with less
>>>>> restriction makes everyone more prosperous and life more
>>>>> meaningful for most.
>>>>
>>>> And while I don't know this from experience I am told that opening a
>>>> business in China is easier, with far fewer restriction, then doing
>>>> the same in the U.S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I believe that.
>>> Note CCP is your partner whether you like it or not.
>>>
>> I'm sure.
>>
>> But so is the U.S., or at least I read that you pay 21% in corporate
>> taxes to your government.
>
> No. That is the mythical, fantastical, corporate tax rate. No one pays anywhere near that.
>
> https://www.americanprogress.org/article/these-19-fortune-100-companies-paid-next-to-nothing-or-nothing-at-all-in-taxes-in-2021/
> https://itep.org/55-profitable-corporations-zero-corporate-tax/
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/02/business/economy/zero-corporate-tax.html
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/corporate-tax-large-companies-foreign-us/
>
>
>
>
>
>>> OTOH one of those two countries understands growth and
>>> export revenue. The other doesn't.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.

On 5/23/2022 2:37 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 23:47:12 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 5/22/2022 5:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You DO understand that Biden's inflation make a mere 11 billion dollars meaningless don't you? Biden left 10 times that amount in Afghanistan.
>>>
>>> 10 times $11 billion? I don't think it was quite so much.
>>>
>>> "US left behind $7 billion of military equipment in Afghanistan after
>>> 2021 withdrawal, Pentagon report says"
>>> <https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-left-behind/index.html>
>>> "The US gave a total of $18.6 billion of equipment to the Afghan
>>> National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF) from 2005 to August 2021,
>>> according to the report. Of that total, equipment worth $7.12 billion
>>> remained in Afghanistan after the US withdrawal was completed on
>>> August 30, 2021."
>>
>> It was still a lot of money that Trump caused the U.S. to lose by making
>> the deal with Taliban to withdraw all U.S. troops by May 2021. Trump's
>> deal to end the war in Afghanistan left Biden with a terrible situation.
>
> Yes, I've read that but I wonder.
> We were once hired by Caterpillar, Singapore, to survey some
> equipment and supplies abandoned, or left behind, when the U.S. left
> Vietnam. The idea was that if any of it was usable then CAT would buy
> it from the Vietnam government for cheap and rebuild it.
>
> None of it was worth recovering. Some had been used and some looked as
> though it had just sat there in the rain for years. I remember a large
> warehouse full of CAT spares, but the roof had leaked and nothing was
> worth salvaging.
>
> I wonder how much of the left-behind supplies and equipment in
> Afghanistan was the same.
>

An ex employee here served in the US Army in equipment
demolition. His job was to destroy vehicles which could not
reasonably be moved.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/23/2022 10:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
>
> Yes, there are every year some individuals who and some corporate
> entities which pay a tax rate below average, and some zero. Congress in
> its wisdom has written a gazillion carve-outs, credits, deductions,
> exemptions etc and an accountant or tax attorney would be remiss in not
> availing those to his client's advantage when filing.
>
> Remember the IRS rule- Tax avoidance is lawful (and I woudl add
> patriotic). Tax evasion is criminal.
>
> Oh by the way if any of the evil number crunchers in your links had
> actually evaded taxation, they risk fines and imprisonment. More, the
> larger one's income, the more likely an audit. Very large entities are
> routinely audited for every filing every year.
>
> I think it was richly humorous for Ms Warren to call out Elon Musk for
> not 'paying his fair share':
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/20/elon-musk-says-he-will-pay-over-11-billion-in-taxes-this-year.html
>
> If the highest tax payment ever in world history isn't enough, maybe one
> ought to reconsider the proposition.

If a person makes more money than anyone in world history, they should
pay more taxes than anyone in world history. How is that not obvious?

Which is not saying that Musk or Bezos or Gates or anyone of that ilk
violated the law. It's simply saying that the law should be changed.

There's this:

---------------------

In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the world’s richest
man, did not pay a penny in federal income taxes. He achieved the feat
again in 2011. In 2018, Tesla founder Elon Musk, the second-richest
person in the world, also paid no federal income taxes.

Michael Bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years. Billionaire
investor Carl Icahn did it twice. George Soros paid no federal income
tax three years in a row.

ProPublica has obtained a vast trove of Internal Revenue Service data on
the tax returns of thousands of the nation’s wealthiest people, covering
more than 15 years. The data provides an unprecedented look inside the
financial lives of America’s titans, including Warren Buffett, Bill
Gates, Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg. It shows not just their
income and taxes, but also their investments, stock trades, gambling
winnings and even the results of audits.

Taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the American tax
system: that everyone pays their fair share and the richest Americans
pay the most. The IRS records show that the wealthiest can — perfectly
legally — pay income taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds
of millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year.

[from
https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
]

--------------------

Society gets no great benefit when Jeff Bezos buys a mega-yacht, or Bill
Gates adds another 10,000 square feet to a mansion. That money could be
put to far better use, paying for things that are now funded by the
taxes of much less prosperous people.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/23/2022 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/23/2022 10:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes, there are every year some individuals who and some
>> corporate entities which pay a tax rate below average, and
>> some zero. Congress in its wisdom has written a gazillion
>> carve-outs, credits, deductions, exemptions etc and an
>> accountant or tax attorney would be remiss in not availing
>> those to his client's advantage when filing.
>>
>> Remember the IRS rule- Tax avoidance is lawful (and I
>> woudl add patriotic). Tax evasion is criminal.
>>
>> Oh by the way if any of the evil number crunchers in your
>> links had actually evaded taxation, they risk fines and
>> imprisonment. More, the larger one's income, the more
>> likely an audit. Very large entities are routinely audited
>> for every filing every year.
>>
>> I think it was richly humorous for Ms Warren to call out
>> Elon Musk for not 'paying his fair share':
>>
>> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/20/elon-musk-says-he-will-pay-over-11-billion-in-taxes-this-year.html
>>
>> If the highest tax payment ever in world history isn't
>> enough, maybe one ought to reconsider the proposition.
>
> If a person makes more money than anyone in world history,
> they should pay more taxes than anyone in world history. How
> is that not obvious?
>
> Which is not saying that Musk or Bezos or Gates or anyone of
> that ilk violated the law. It's simply saying that the law
> should be changed.
>
> There's this:
>
> ---------------------
>
> In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the
> world’s richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income
> taxes. He achieved the feat again in 2011. In 2018, Tesla
> founder Elon Musk, the second-richest person in the world,
> also paid no federal income taxes.
>
> Michael Bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years.
> Billionaire investor Carl Icahn did it twice. George Soros
> paid no federal income tax three years in a row.
>
> ProPublica has obtained a vast trove of Internal Revenue
> Service data on the tax returns of thousands of the
> nation’s wealthiest people, covering more than 15 years.
> The data provides an unprecedented look inside the financial
> lives of America’s titans, including Warren Buffett, Bill
> Gates, Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg. It shows not just
> their income and taxes, but also their investments, stock
> trades, gambling winnings and even the results of audits.
>
> Taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the
> American tax system: that everyone pays their fair share and
> the richest Americans pay the most. The IRS records show
> that the wealthiest can — perfectly legally — pay income
> taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of
> millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year.
>
> [from
> https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
> ]
>
> --------------------
>
> Society gets no great benefit when Jeff Bezos buys a
> mega-yacht, or Bill Gates adds another 10,000 square feet to
> a mansion. That money could be put to far better use, paying
> for things that are now funded by the taxes of much less
> prosperous people.
>
>

Society benefits greatly from those men regardless.

Investment, employment and development benefit society, the
economy and culture I would argue as much as or probably
more than pissing cash into the great corruption machines.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 5:51:27 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 6:26 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:33:46 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/22/2022 1:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 5/22/2022 11:55 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Meanwhile the Wuhan bioweapon was a first test run, 'proof
> >>>> of concept' as it were.
> >>>
> >>> Odd test procedure for a "bioweapon": "Hey, let's unleash it
> >>> on our own economy first!"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> The Chinese Communist Party is not uniquely evil. They may
> >> be world-class feckless even by Major World Power standards.
> >> Which are low:
> >>
> >> January 2022:
> >> https://www.pennlive.com/news/2022/01/euthanasia-guidelines-followed-when-3-escaped-monkeys-were-killed-police.html
> >> May 2022:
> >> https://nypost.com/2022/05/22/biden-says-monkeypox-cases-something-to-be-concerned-about/
> >>
> >> Don't leave out the Russians:
> >>
> >> https://miningawareness.wordpress.com/2022/02/27/russia-bioweapons-program-soviet-and-post-soviet/
> >>
> >> or the British:
> >> https://www.ucl.ac.uk/impact/case-studies/2014/dec/secret-science-chemical-and-biological-warfare-research-and-policy-britain
> >>
> >> An unique aspect of the Wuhan affair is the recently
> >> released (FOIA) emails of upper management CDC panic to
> >> destroy evidence when deaths were first publicized. US
> >> government research and funding played significantly in
> >> developing that novel virus.
> >
> > You skipped the USians.
> > "The United States biological weapons program officially began in
> > spring 1943 on orders from U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt. Research
> > continued following World War II as the U.S. built up a large
> > stockpile of biological agents and weapons.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_biological_weapons_program#Early_history_(1918%E2%80%931941)
> > and Chemical Weapons?
> > In 1990, on the heels of the Cold War, the United States possessed the
> > world's second largest chemical weapons arsenal after Russia,
> > consisting of more than 31,500 U.S. tons (28,577 MT) of lethal
> > chemical agents and munitions.
> > https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/us-chemical-weapons-stockpile
> >
> I assumed that was common knowledge already as Plum Island
> becomes newsworthy every couple of years:
>
> https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/biology-fields/mystery-myth-reality-plum-island.htm

The US does NOT, repeat NOT have stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons. These require so much maintenance that the coxst of such xtockpiling would stick out of the military budget like a sore thumb.

The military DOES research chemical, radiological and bacterial warfare agents that might be used against our troops. This research into detectors is how I was injured. And believe me, if those jackasses that I was working with were any indication of the researchers - if there were any stockpiling there would be thousands of yearly injuries from such stockpiles.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 5:57:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 7:31 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 May 2022 10:46:09 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/21/2022 5:42 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >>>>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >>>>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >>>>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> She had
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >>>>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >>>>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >>>>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >>>>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >>>>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >>>>>>>>>>>> until july.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >>>>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >>>>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >>>>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >>>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >>>>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >>>>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >>>>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> >>>>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> >>>>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >>>>>>>>>>> we got here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >>>>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >>>>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >>>>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >>>>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >>>>>>>>>> unknowable now.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> >>>>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> >>>>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> >>>>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> >>>>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> >>>>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> >>>>>>>> unhelpful.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> >>>>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> >>>>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> >>>>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> >>>>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> >>>>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> >>>>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> >>>>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> >>>>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> >>>>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> >>>>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> >>>>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> >>>>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> >>>>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> >>>>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> >>>>>>> through education and protective "devices".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> >>>>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> >>>>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> >>>>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> >>>>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> >>>>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> >>>>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> >>>>>>> running for the border in terror.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> >>>>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> >>>>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> >>>>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> >>>>> "in service newspaper").
> >>>>>
> >>>>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> >>>>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> >>>>> as illegal immigrants.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> >>>>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> >>>>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> >>>>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> >>>>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> >>>>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> >>>>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> >>>>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> >>>>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
> >>>> first engagement.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>
> >>> Defeat China? I am far more concerned about stopping the deaths from Covid-19. And eliminating the economic effects Covid has caused throughout the world. I am aware Covid started in China. And spread worldwide. Was it intentional? Maybe, maybe not. I'd go for the not. The leaders in China have some competent advisors. They would tell the leaders that destroying the world's economy is bad for China. No matter how much harm it does to everyone else, China will also suffer. China is interconnected with the world economically. Very few spouses commit spousal murder by pulling the spouse into a closet and setting off a hand grenade. Its not much benefit to kill yourself.
> >>>
> >>> As far as first engagement. Hopefully the world has learned from Covid. And will be better prepared for the next time something similar happens. But I'm not too hopeful a large portion of the USA has learned anything at all. So we would likely have a repeat exactly as bad the next time around. As for engaging China on other fronts. Such as the militarization of the South China Sea, and human rights, and trading, those conflicts will continue. And I am hopeful a good outcome can be achieved. Good for both sides and everyone.
> >>>
> >>> Unlike the Republicans who assume everything is a zero sum game. If you gain, then I must lose, So that is evil. I believe we all can gain together. Likely different amounts of gain. But all pluses for everyone. No one has to lose.
> >>>
> >>
> >> You have that backwards IMHO.
> >>
> >> Statists believe in the socialist version of 'sharing',
> >> i.e., forcibly redistributing limited resources all while
> >> suppressing innovation, efficiency and growth. Classic
> >> 'zero-sum' outlook.
> >>
> >> Classic liberals (now called conservatives) are more with Mr
> >> Deng, "Let a thousand flowers bloom". Liberty with less
> >> restriction makes everyone more prosperous and life more
> >> meaningful for most.
> >
> > And while I don't know this from experience I am told that opening a
> > business in China is easier, with far fewer restriction, then doing
> > the same in the U.S.
> >
> >
> I believe that.
> Note CCP is your partner whether you like it or not.
>
> OTOH one of those two countries understands growth and
> export revenue. The other doesn't.

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 9:03:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/23/2022 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/23/2022 10:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, there are every year some individuals who and some
> >> corporate entities which pay a tax rate below average, and
> >> some zero. Congress in its wisdom has written a gazillion
> >> carve-outs, credits, deductions, exemptions etc and an
> >> accountant or tax attorney would be remiss in not availing
> >> those to his client's advantage when filing.
> >>
> >> Remember the IRS rule- Tax avoidance is lawful (and I
> >> woudl add patriotic). Tax evasion is criminal.
> >>
> >> Oh by the way if any of the evil number crunchers in your
> >> links had actually evaded taxation, they risk fines and
> >> imprisonment. More, the larger one's income, the more
> >> likely an audit. Very large entities are routinely audited
> >> for every filing every year.
> >>
> >> I think it was richly humorous for Ms Warren to call out
> >> Elon Musk for not 'paying his fair share':
> >>
> >> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/20/elon-musk-says-he-will-pay-over-11-billion-in-taxes-this-year.html
> >>
> >> If the highest tax payment ever in world history isn't
> >> enough, maybe one ought to reconsider the proposition.
> >
> > If a person makes more money than anyone in world history,
> > they should pay more taxes than anyone in world history. How
> > is that not obvious?
> >
> > Which is not saying that Musk or Bezos or Gates or anyone of
> > that ilk violated the law. It's simply saying that the law
> > should be changed.
> >
> > There's this:
> >
> > ---------------------
> >
> > In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the
> > world’s richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income
> > taxes. He achieved the feat again in 2011. In 2018, Tesla
> > founder Elon Musk, the second-richest person in the world,
> > also paid no federal income taxes.
> >
> > Michael Bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years.
> > Billionaire investor Carl Icahn did it twice. George Soros
> > paid no federal income tax three years in a row.
> >
> > ProPublica has obtained a vast trove of Internal Revenue
> > Service data on the tax returns of thousands of the
> > nation’s wealthiest people, covering more than 15 years.
> > The data provides an unprecedented look inside the financial
> > lives of America’s titans, including Warren Buffett, Bill
> > Gates, Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg. It shows not just
> > their income and taxes, but also their investments, stock
> > trades, gambling winnings and even the results of audits.
> >
> > Taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the
> > American tax system: that everyone pays their fair share and
> > the richest Americans pay the most. The IRS records show
> > that the wealthiest can — perfectly legally — pay income
> > taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of
> > millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year.
> >
> > [from
> > https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
> > ]
> >
> > --------------------
> >
> > Society gets no great benefit when Jeff Bezos buys a
> > mega-yacht, or Bill Gates adds another 10,000 square feet to
> > a mansion. That money could be put to far better use, paying
> > for things that are now funded by the taxes of much less
> > prosperous people.
> >
> >
> Society benefits greatly from those men regardless.
>
> Investment, employment and development benefit society, the
> economy and culture I would argue as much as or probably
> more than pissing cash into the great corruption machines.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Every time Kragowski posts it is communist propaganda. Then he says, "I never said that".

On 5/23/2022 12:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/23/2022 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/23/2022 10:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, there are every year some individuals who and some
>>> corporate entities which pay a tax rate below average, and
>>> some zero. Congress in its wisdom has written a gazillion
>>> carve-outs, credits, deductions, exemptions etc and an
>>> accountant or tax attorney would be remiss in not availing
>>> those to his client's advantage when filing.
>>>
>>> Remember the IRS rule- Tax avoidance is lawful (and I
>>> woudl add patriotic). Tax evasion is criminal.
>>>
>>> Oh by the way if any of the evil number crunchers in your
>>> links had actually evaded taxation, they risk fines and
>>> imprisonment. More, the larger one's income, the more
>>> likely an audit. Very large entities are routinely audited
>>> for every filing every year.
>>>
>>> I think it was richly humorous for Ms Warren to call out
>>> Elon Musk for not 'paying his fair share':
>>>
>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/20/elon-musk-says-he-will-pay-over-11-billion-in-taxes-this-year.html
>>>
>>>
>>> If the highest tax payment ever in world history isn't
>>> enough, maybe one ought to reconsider the proposition.
>>
>> If a person makes more money than anyone in world history,
>> they should pay more taxes than anyone in world history. How
>> is that not obvious?
>>
>> Which is not saying that Musk or Bezos or Gates or anyone of
>> that ilk violated the law. It's simply saying that the law
>> should be changed.
>>
>> There's this:
>>
>> ---------------------
>>
>> In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the
>> world’s richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income
>> taxes. He achieved the feat again in 2011. In 2018, Tesla
>> founder Elon Musk, the second-richest person in the world,
>> also paid no federal income taxes.
>>
>> Michael Bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years.
>> Billionaire investor Carl Icahn did it twice. George Soros
>> paid no federal income tax three years in a row.
>>
>> ProPublica has obtained a vast trove of Internal Revenue
>> Service data on the tax returns of thousands of the
>> nation’s wealthiest people, covering more than 15 years.
>> The data provides an unprecedented look inside the financial
>> lives of America’s titans, including Warren Buffett, Bill
>> Gates, Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg. It shows not just
>> their income and taxes, but also their investments, stock
>> trades, gambling winnings and even the results of audits.
>>
>> Taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the
>> American tax system: that everyone pays their fair share and
>> the richest Americans pay the most. The IRS records show
>> that the wealthiest can — perfectly legally — pay income
>> taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of
>> millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year.
>>
>> [from
>> https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
>>
>>   ]
>>
>> --------------------
>>
>> Society gets no great benefit when Jeff Bezos buys a
>> mega-yacht, or Bill Gates adds another 10,000 square feet to
>> a mansion. That money could be put to far better use, paying
>> for things that are now funded by the taxes of much less
>> prosperous people.
>>
>>
>
> Society benefits greatly from those men regardless.
>
> Investment, employment and development benefit society, the economy and
> culture I would argue as much as or probably more than pissing cash into
> the great corruption machines.

I don't deny that Musk, Bezos and Gates have brought benefits to
society. But if they were actually taxed the same percentage of their
income as you or I, they would still have generated those same benefits.
There's no way Musk is going to say "I'm making a little less money so
I'm quitting."

You seem to believe the myth that all government is terrible, wasteful
and inefficient and that private enterprise is the opposite. That does
not jibe with my experience.

Let me give a fresh example - admittedly, second hand. A woman I know
well recently changed jobs. After years of working for a city
government, she recently took a rather similar job with a manufacturing
company with big new projects. She's using the same skills as before,
but at a much, much higher salary.

After a short time on the job, she needed to organize a meeting of
various manufacturing representatives and government officials. She
decided it would be necessary to get caterers for a light lunch and
asked her superior about her budget for that. Her superior said "Don't
worry about it. Spend whatever you need to spend. I know this is new for
you, but trust me, they don't care how much you spend, so it's better
not to bother them. It took me months to learn that."

Oh, and vaguely related: The company also pays for lunches and snacks
for all employees, every day.

My friend told me, "Coming from government, this is really hard to get
used to. Working for the city, I chipped in six dollars a month for
water for the office."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:05:33 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/23/2022 10:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes, there are every year some individuals who and some corporate
>> entities which pay a tax rate below average, and some zero. Congress in
>> its wisdom has written a gazillion carve-outs, credits, deductions,
>> exemptions etc and an accountant or tax attorney would be remiss in not
>> availing those to his client's advantage when filing.
>>
>> Remember the IRS rule- Tax avoidance is lawful (and I woudl add
>> patriotic). Tax evasion is criminal.
>>
>> Oh by the way if any of the evil number crunchers in your links had
>> actually evaded taxation, they risk fines and imprisonment. More, the
>> larger one's income, the more likely an audit. Very large entities are
>> routinely audited for every filing every year.
>>
>> I think it was richly humorous for Ms Warren to call out Elon Musk for
>> not 'paying his fair share':
>>
>> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/20/elon-musk-says-he-will-pay-over-11-billion-in-taxes-this-year.html
>>
>> If the highest tax payment ever in world history isn't enough, maybe one
>> ought to reconsider the proposition.
>
>If a person makes more money than anyone in world history, they should
>pay more taxes than anyone in world history. How is that not obvious?
>
>Which is not saying that Musk or Bezos or Gates or anyone of that ilk
>violated the law. It's simply saying that the law should be changed.
>
>There's this:
>
>---------------------
>
>In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the world’s richest
>man, did not pay a penny in federal income taxes. He achieved the feat
>again in 2011. In 2018, Tesla founder Elon Musk, the second-richest
>person in the world, also paid no federal income taxes.
>
>Michael Bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years. Billionaire
>investor Carl Icahn did it twice. George Soros paid no federal income
>tax three years in a row.
>
>ProPublica has obtained a vast trove of Internal Revenue Service data on
>the tax returns of thousands of the nation’s wealthiest people, covering
>more than 15 years. The data provides an unprecedented look inside the
>financial lives of America’s titans, including Warren Buffett, Bill
>Gates, Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg. It shows not just their
>income and taxes, but also their investments, stock trades, gambling
>winnings and even the results of audits.
>
>Taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the American tax
>system: that everyone pays their fair share and the richest Americans
>pay the most. The IRS records show that the wealthiest can — perfectly
>legally — pay income taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds
>of millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year.
>
>[from
>https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
> ]
>
>--------------------
>
>Society gets no great benefit when Jeff Bezos buys a mega-yacht, or Bill
>Gates adds another 10,000 square feet to a mansion. That money could be
>put to far better use, paying for things that are now funded by the
>taxes of much less prosperous people.

As I understand it, the theme here is "TAX the RICH! (Rah! Rah! Rah!)
but what is "rich"? Those that "have more money then you do"? "Those
that have more money then the poor"? Or just point the finger and
BANG! "You are rich!"

I'm sure that the rich folks mentioned in the article quoted complied
with every detail in the tax code. So the tax code is wrong?
Or is it jealousy? "Whoo! they make more money then I do, they gotta
be bad guys!"

Warren Buffett, for example worked or was in business from a very
young age. He bought his first shares at 11 years of age. Is he to be
penalized for "busting his arse" almost literally "all his life"?

But to put it on a personal basis. From reading posts here it appears
that Frank has far more money then Tommy. Frank lives in a nice house,
large property, good neighborhood, drives a rather new car, etc.,
while Tommy lives in a $50,000 house in a self described slum with
guns banging all night and illegal immigrants swarming the streets,
drives a second hand car and gets by on the Social Security.

So, logically, the "right" thing to do is to take money away from
Frank and give it to Tommy so that their financial status is equal.
Right? Makes perfect sense. Doesn't it.

So tell us, when can Tommy expect the first check and will you be
making weekly or Monthly payments?

And non of this "Hey No! Why Me! The Goment sposed to do it!". No Sir,
if you are going to be an advocate then don't hide your light under a
bushel. Be a Man! Lead from the front and be the first in your
neighborhood to do a good thing.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:03:47 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/23/2022 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/23/2022 10:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, there are every year some individuals who and some
>>> corporate entities which pay a tax rate below average, and
>>> some zero. Congress in its wisdom has written a gazillion
>>> carve-outs, credits, deductions, exemptions etc and an
>>> accountant or tax attorney would be remiss in not availing
>>> those to his client's advantage when filing.
>>>
>>> Remember the IRS rule- Tax avoidance is lawful (and I
>>> woudl add patriotic). Tax evasion is criminal.
>>>
>>> Oh by the way if any of the evil number crunchers in your
>>> links had actually evaded taxation, they risk fines and
>>> imprisonment. More, the larger one's income, the more
>>> likely an audit. Very large entities are routinely audited
>>> for every filing every year.
>>>
>>> I think it was richly humorous for Ms Warren to call out
>>> Elon Musk for not 'paying his fair share':
>>>
>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/20/elon-musk-says-he-will-pay-over-11-billion-in-taxes-this-year.html
>>>
>>> If the highest tax payment ever in world history isn't
>>> enough, maybe one ought to reconsider the proposition.
>>
>> If a person makes more money than anyone in world history,
>> they should pay more taxes than anyone in world history. How
>> is that not obvious?
>>
>> Which is not saying that Musk or Bezos or Gates or anyone of
>> that ilk violated the law. It's simply saying that the law
>> should be changed.
>>
>> There's this:
>>
>> ---------------------
>>
>> In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the
>> world’s richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income
>> taxes. He achieved the feat again in 2011. In 2018, Tesla
>> founder Elon Musk, the second-richest person in the world,
>> also paid no federal income taxes.
>>
>> Michael Bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years.
>> Billionaire investor Carl Icahn did it twice. George Soros
>> paid no federal income tax three years in a row.
>>
>> ProPublica has obtained a vast trove of Internal Revenue
>> Service data on the tax returns of thousands of the
>> nation’s wealthiest people, covering more than 15 years.
>> The data provides an unprecedented look inside the financial
>> lives of America’s titans, including Warren Buffett, Bill
>> Gates, Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg. It shows not just
>> their income and taxes, but also their investments, stock
>> trades, gambling winnings and even the results of audits.
>>
>> Taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the
>> American tax system: that everyone pays their fair share and
>> the richest Americans pay the most. The IRS records show
>> that the wealthiest can — perfectly legally — pay income
>> taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of
>> millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year.
>>
>> [from
>> https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
>> ]
>>
>> --------------------
>>
>> Society gets no great benefit when Jeff Bezos buys a
>> mega-yacht, or Bill Gates adds another 10,000 square feet to
>> a mansion. That money could be put to far better use, paying
>> for things that are now funded by the taxes of much less
>> prosperous people.
>>
>>
>
>Society benefits greatly from those men regardless.
>
>Investment, employment and development benefit society, the
>economy and culture I would argue as much as or probably
>more than pissing cash into the great corruption machines.

Well, lets be honest here. Jeff Bezos started a business, literally I
believe, in his garage and got rich. Today Amazon employs some 1.6
million people and
Amazon topped the list of U.S. companies in R&D spend, at $22.6
billion.
Amazon's investment in real estate and job creation (benefits New York
City could have enjoyed). Amazon's PPE expenditure has steadily
increased over the last five years, netting to approximately $60
billion as of the end of last year.

And, as noted in one article the
If you look at the Internal Revenue Code, as one CPA cites, less than
1% of it is dedicated to revenue generation. The majority, in fact, is
on tax deductions. “There are only about 30 pages in the Code that
actually raise revenue...[T]here are about 6,000 pages that tell you
how to reduce taxes through tax deductions, tax credits and other
incentives.”
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 23 May 2022 13:43:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/23/2022 12:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/23/2022 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 5/23/2022 10:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there are every year some individuals who and some
>>>> corporate entities which pay a tax rate below average, and
>>>> some zero. Congress in its wisdom has written a gazillion
>>>> carve-outs, credits, deductions, exemptions etc and an
>>>> accountant or tax attorney would be remiss in not availing
>>>> those to his client's advantage when filing.
>>>>
>>>> Remember the IRS rule- Tax avoidance is lawful (and I
>>>> woudl add patriotic). Tax evasion is criminal.
>>>>
>>>> Oh by the way if any of the evil number crunchers in your
>>>> links had actually evaded taxation, they risk fines and
>>>> imprisonment. More, the larger one's income, the more
>>>> likely an audit. Very large entities are routinely audited
>>>> for every filing every year.
>>>>
>>>> I think it was richly humorous for Ms Warren to call out
>>>> Elon Musk for not 'paying his fair share':
>>>>
>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/20/elon-musk-says-he-will-pay-over-11-billion-in-taxes-this-year.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the highest tax payment ever in world history isn't
>>>> enough, maybe one ought to reconsider the proposition.
>>>
>>> If a person makes more money than anyone in world history,
>>> they should pay more taxes than anyone in world history. How
>>> is that not obvious?
>>>
>>> Which is not saying that Musk or Bezos or Gates or anyone of
>>> that ilk violated the law. It's simply saying that the law
>>> should be changed.
>>>
>>> There's this:
>>>
>>> ---------------------
>>>
>>> In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the
>>> world’s richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income
>>> taxes. He achieved the feat again in 2011. In 2018, Tesla
>>> founder Elon Musk, the second-richest person in the world,
>>> also paid no federal income taxes.
>>>
>>> Michael Bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years.
>>> Billionaire investor Carl Icahn did it twice. George Soros
>>> paid no federal income tax three years in a row.
>>>
>>> ProPublica has obtained a vast trove of Internal Revenue
>>> Service data on the tax returns of thousands of the
>>> nation’s wealthiest people, covering more than 15 years.
>>> The data provides an unprecedented look inside the financial
>>> lives of America’s titans, including Warren Buffett, Bill
>>> Gates, Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg. It shows not just
>>> their income and taxes, but also their investments, stock
>>> trades, gambling winnings and even the results of audits.
>>>
>>> Taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the
>>> American tax system: that everyone pays their fair share and
>>> the richest Americans pay the most. The IRS records show
>>> that the wealthiest can — perfectly legally — pay income
>>> taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of
>>> millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year.
>>>
>>> [from
>>> https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
>>>
>>>   ]
>>>
>>> --------------------
>>>
>>> Society gets no great benefit when Jeff Bezos buys a
>>> mega-yacht, or Bill Gates adds another 10,000 square feet to
>>> a mansion. That money could be put to far better use, paying
>>> for things that are now funded by the taxes of much less
>>> prosperous people.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Society benefits greatly from those men regardless.
>>
>> Investment, employment and development benefit society, the economy and
>> culture I would argue as much as or probably more than pissing cash into
>> the great corruption machines.
>
>I don't deny that Musk, Bezos and Gates have brought benefits to
>society. But if they were actually taxed the same percentage of their
>income as you or I, they would still have generated those same benefits.
>There's no way Musk is going to say "I'm making a little less money so
>I'm quitting."
>
>You seem to believe the myth that all government is terrible, wasteful
>and inefficient and that private enterprise is the opposite. That does
>not jibe with my experience.
>
>Let me give a fresh example - admittedly, second hand. A woman I know
>well recently changed jobs. After years of working for a city
>government, she recently took a rather similar job with a manufacturing
>company with big new projects. She's using the same skills as before,
>but at a much, much higher salary.
>
>After a short time on the job, she needed to organize a meeting of
>various manufacturing representatives and government officials. She
>decided it would be necessary to get caterers for a light lunch and
>asked her superior about her budget for that. Her superior said "Don't
>worry about it. Spend whatever you need to spend. I know this is new for
>you, but trust me, they don't care how much you spend, so it's better
>not to bother them. It took me months to learn that."
>
>Oh, and vaguely related: The company also pays for lunches and snacks
>for all employees, every day.
>
>My friend told me, "Coming from government, this is really hard to get
>used to. Working for the city, I chipped in six dollars a month for
>water for the office."

I know it isn't what you are trying to prove but the lunches that the
company "they don't care how much you spend" are part of the company's
operating expenses and thus serve to reduce taxes (:-)

The company I worked for in Indonesia provided senor staff with a car
and driver... tax deductible, food and lodging while in the field...
tax deductible. In fact almost every decision regarding the operation
and management was discussed with our "tax" lawyer before implementing
it.
--
Cheers,

John B.