On 6/4/2022 7:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 15:31:24 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 10:36:25 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 6/3/2022 10:26 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ... But perhaps it is a matter of national aggressiveness? After all the
>>>> U.S. has been at war, military assistance, sticking their nose into
>>>> other country's business, whatever, for more then 90% of their
>>>> history.
>>> John, your arguments are now down to the level of "any port in a storm,
>>> no logic necessary."
>>>
>>> As in "Maybe the crazy proliferation of guns has nothing to do with
>>> America's immense gun crime rate! Maybe it's the wrong breakfast cereal!
>>> Maybe it's because of allergies! Maybe its... um, _anything_ but having
>>> more guns than people!"
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Frank, its pornography, not going to church, black kids only having one parent, and lots of white kids only having one parent, video games, CRT, having more than one door into a school, mental health of course, and a lot of other things too. Republicans have lots and lots of reasons for why kids are murdered at schools. Or them black illegal immigrants up in Buffalo who were just fake killed maybe. And Tommy and I saw a failed Republican candidate in Delaware who say its the Democrats who did it to make a talking point about guns and distract from inflation. Lots and lots and lots of all good valid reasons why those children were gunned down. But guns ain't one of the reasons. No sir. Moscow Mitch even said it was not guns. No no no.
>
> Actually it isn't simply "gun crime rate", it seems to be "crime". The
> U.S. has, I believe, some 2,094,000 people in jail. Approaching twice
> the number of China, a country with something like 4 times the
> population.
>
> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>
> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>

Unfair comparison to china in that we have not adopted
widespread extrajudicial summary execution. Yet.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>
> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.

It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents shows that
lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower murder rates.

He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a perfect direct
proportion, it's invalid.

As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly state his
views. But if that's really his point, it demonstrates astonishing
ignorance of statistics, correlation and mathematics.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 7:33:15 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/4/2022 7:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 15:31:24 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 10:36:25 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 6/3/2022 10:26 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ... But perhaps it is a matter of national aggressiveness? After all the
> >>>> U.S. has been at war, military assistance, sticking their nose into
> >>>> other country's business, whatever, for more then 90% of their
> >>>> history.
> >>> John, your arguments are now down to the level of "any port in a storm,
> >>> no logic necessary."
> >>>
> >>> As in "Maybe the crazy proliferation of guns has nothing to do with
> >>> America's immense gun crime rate! Maybe it's the wrong breakfast cereal!
> >>> Maybe it's because of allergies! Maybe its... um, _anything_ but having
> >>> more guns than people!"
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >> Frank, its pornography, not going to church, black kids only having one parent, and lots of white kids only having one parent, video games, CRT, having more than one door into a school, mental health of course, and a lot of other things too. Republicans have lots and lots of reasons for why kids are murdered at schools. Or them black illegal immigrants up in Buffalo who were just fake killed maybe. And Tommy and I saw a failed Republican candidate in Delaware who say its the Democrats who did it to make a talking point about guns and distract from inflation. Lots and lots and lots of all good valid reasons why those children were gunned down. But guns ain't one of the reasons. No sir. Moscow Mitch even said it was not guns. No no no.
> >
> > Actually it isn't simply "gun crime rate", it seems to be "crime". The
> > U.S. has, I believe, some 2,094,000 people in jail. Approaching twice
> > the number of China, a country with something like 4 times the
> > population.
> >
> > And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
> > The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
> > contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
> > and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
> >
> > So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
> > the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
> > Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
> >
> Unfair comparison to china in that we have not adopted
> widespread extrajudicial summary execution. Yet.

Andrew, can you tell me exactly what is going on? Why were people arrested for January 6th denied bail and still in prison while actual murderers are being released without bail? What do you actually know? Reports now EVEN on CNN have shown pictures of people egging the crowd on who are known FBI operatives. So what do you actually know what is happening? What if you're picked up tomorrow for owning a gun. Can you be sure that you won't be summarily executed just like is going to happen to those protesting student in China that built a model of the Statue of Liberty?

On 6/5/2022 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>> ownership. In
>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway,
>> 28 and 0.45
>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>
>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S.
>> has 17% of
>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>> and
>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>
> It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents
> shows that lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower
> murder rates.
>
> He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
> perfect direct proportion, it's invalid.
>
> As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
> state his views. But if that's really his point, it
> demonstrates astonishing ignorance of statistics,
> correlation and mathematics.
>

One may well posit from data above that there may well be
other differences in culture, homogeneity, custom, law
enforcement etc beyond firearm ownership as a contributing
variable.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 8:22:25 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/5/2022 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
> >> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
> >> ownership. In
> >> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway,
> >> 28 and 0.45
> >> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
> >>
> >> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S.
> >> has 17% of
> >> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
> >> and
> >> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
> >
> > It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents
> > shows that lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower
> > murder rates.
> >
> > He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
> > perfect direct proportion, it's invalid.
> >
> > As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
> > state his views. But if that's really his point, it
> > demonstrates astonishing ignorance of statistics,
> > correlation and mathematics.
> >
> One may well posit from data above that there may well be
> other differences in culture, homogeneity, custom, law
> enforcement etc beyond firearm ownership as a contributing
> variable.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I think that a large part of the problem is people like Frank who wish nothing but extreme ill on the entire world around him. This puts people in a mind to protect themselves. I'm waiting for one of those to shot Frank through the chest, that will give him time to reflect on not carrying a gun for self protection before he expires.

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 11:22:25 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/5/2022 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
> >> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
> >> ownership. In
> >> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway,
> >> 28 and 0.45
> >> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
> >>
> >> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S.
> >> has 17% of
> >> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
> >> and
> >> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
> >
> > It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents
> > shows that lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower
> > murder rates.
> >
> > He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
> > perfect direct proportion, it's invalid.
> >
> > As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
> > state his views. But if that's really his point, it
> > demonstrates astonishing ignorance of statistics,
> > correlation and mathematics.
> >
> One may well posit from data above that there may well be
> other differences in culture, homogeneity, custom, law
> enforcement etc beyond firearm ownership as a contributing
> variable.

Of course. It's a multivariate problem, meaning we should at least make an attempt
at controlling for confounding variables. That's why the most meaningful comparisons
are between countries of relatively similar technological development, levels of
prosperity, etc. But those comparisons don't make the U.S. look good at all.

Western Europe and Canada seem reasonably close to the U.S. in most measures,
aside from our relative lack of gun laws. Switzerland actually has a true "well regulated
militia." What a concept!

- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:48:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 11:22:25 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 6/5/2022 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>> >> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>> >> ownership. In
>> >> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway,
>> >> 28 and 0.45
>> >> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>> >>
>> >> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S.
>> >> has 17% of
>> >> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>> >> and
>> >> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>> >
>> > It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents
>> > shows that lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower
>> > murder rates.
>> >
>> > He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
>> > perfect direct proportion, it's invalid.
>> >
>> > As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
>> > state his views. But if that's really his point, it
>> > demonstrates astonishing ignorance of statistics,
>> > correlation and mathematics.
>> >
>> One may well posit from data above that there may well be
>> other differences in culture, homogeneity, custom, law
>> enforcement etc beyond firearm ownership as a contributing
>> variable.
>
>Of course. It's a multivariate problem, meaning we should at least make an attempt
>at controlling for confounding variables. That's why the most meaningful comparisons
>are between countries of relatively similar technological development, levels of
>prosperity, etc. But those comparisons don't make the U.S. look good at all.
>
>Western Europe and Canada seem reasonably close to the U.S. in most measures,
>aside from our relative lack of gun laws. Switzerland actually has a true "well regulated
>militia." What a concept!
>
>- Frank Krygowski

But Frank, if it is a "multivariate problem, meaning we should at
least make an attempt controlling for confounding variables" then
doesn't it apply to auto deaths? After all, the last time I looked
auto deaths outnumbered gun deaths?

As for your snide comment about the U.S. Constitution, I would remind
you that your people immigrated to the U.S. years after the "Bill of
Rights" had been promulgated. Why didn't they "stay home"?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2022 09:33:07 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 6/4/2022 7:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 15:31:24 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 10:36:25 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 6/3/2022 10:26 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ... But perhaps it is a matter of national aggressiveness? After all the
>>>>> U.S. has been at war, military assistance, sticking their nose into
>>>>> other country's business, whatever, for more then 90% of their
>>>>> history.
>>>> John, your arguments are now down to the level of "any port in a storm,
>>>> no logic necessary."
>>>>
>>>> As in "Maybe the crazy proliferation of guns has nothing to do with
>>>> America's immense gun crime rate! Maybe it's the wrong breakfast cereal!
>>>> Maybe it's because of allergies! Maybe its... um, _anything_ but having
>>>> more guns than people!"
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Frank, its pornography, not going to church, black kids only having one parent, and lots of white kids only having one parent, video games, CRT, having more than one door into a school, mental health of course, and a lot of other things too. Republicans have lots and lots of reasons for why kids are murdered at schools. Or them black illegal immigrants up in Buffalo who were just fake killed maybe. And Tommy and I saw a failed Republican candidate in Delaware who say its the Democrats who did it to make a talking point about guns and distract from inflation. Lots and lots and lots of all good valid reasons why those children were gunned down. But guns ain't one of the reasons. No sir. Moscow Mitch even said it was not guns. No no no.
>>
>> Actually it isn't simply "gun crime rate", it seems to be "crime". The
>> U.S. has, I believe, some 2,094,000 people in jail. Approaching twice
>> the number of China, a country with something like 4 times the
>> population.
>>
>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>
>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>
>
>Unfair comparison to china in that we have not adopted
>widespread extrajudicial summary execution. Yet.

Read some history. Particularly in the "Old West". Or perhaps the
lynching of the Italians in, was it, New Orleans?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:55:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>
>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>
>It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents shows that
>lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower murder rates.
>
>He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a perfect direct
>proportion, it's invalid.
>
>As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly state his
>views. But if that's really his point, it demonstrates astonishing
>ignorance of statistics, correlation and mathematics.

Gee Frank and you claiming to have been a professor and teaching in
the collage. I had thought that you would be capable of understanding
what I wrote without a lengthy and detailed explanation.

But O.K, for those who are, well a bit challenged, mentally:

One, who had considered the matter might have come to the conclusion
that numbers of guns alone just may not be the determining factor.

The U.S. has, for example, 120 guns/100 population and 4.96/100,000
gun murders.

As I wrote
The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership.
Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides,
Norway, 28 and 0.45
and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.

Or, in comparison to the U.S.
Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
the murders,
Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.

The Gun Grabbers argue that it is the number of guns that is important
while international statistics seem to show quite another picture,
Iceland with about 1/4 of as many guns as the U.S. has only 1/11th the
number of murders. Logically, if Iceland has 1/4 the numbers of guns
shouldn't they have 1/4 the number or murders?

Have the Gun Grabbers got it wrong?
Will Frank leap into the fray with some more wild accusations?

Or will sanity survive?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2022 09:33:07 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 6/4/2022 7:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 15:31:24 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 10:36:25 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 6/3/2022 10:26 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ... But perhaps it is a matter of national aggressiveness? After all the
>>>>> U.S. has been at war, military assistance, sticking their nose into
>>>>> other country's business, whatever, for more then 90% of their
>>>>> history.
>>>> John, your arguments are now down to the level of "any port in a storm,
>>>> no logic necessary."
>>>>
>>>> As in "Maybe the crazy proliferation of guns has nothing to do with
>>>> America's immense gun crime rate! Maybe it's the wrong breakfast cereal!
>>>> Maybe it's because of allergies! Maybe its... um, _anything_ but having
>>>> more guns than people!"
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Frank, its pornography, not going to church, black kids only having one parent, and lots of white kids only having one parent, video games, CRT, having more than one door into a school, mental health of course, and a lot of other things too. Republicans have lots and lots of reasons for why kids are murdered at schools. Or them black illegal immigrants up in Buffalo who were just fake killed maybe. And Tommy and I saw a failed Republican candidate in Delaware who say its the Democrats who did it to make a talking point about guns and distract from inflation. Lots and lots and lots of all good valid reasons why those children were gunned down. But guns ain't one of the reasons. No sir. Moscow Mitch even said it was not guns. No no no.
>>
>> Actually it isn't simply "gun crime rate", it seems to be "crime". The
>> U.S. has, I believe, some 2,094,000 people in jail. Approaching twice
>> the number of China, a country with something like 4 times the
>> population.
>>
>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>
>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>
>
>Unfair comparison to china in that we have not adopted
>widespread extrajudicial summary execution. Yet.

On the other hand the "crime rate" in the U.S. is 47.81/100,000 and in
China it is 30.14/100,000
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
One might say, "If it works, don't knock it" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 6/5/2022 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:48:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 11:22:25 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 6/5/2022 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>>>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>>>>> ownership. In
>>>>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway,
>>>>> 28 and 0.45
>>>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S.
>>>>> has 17% of
>>>>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>>>>> and
>>>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>>>
>>>> It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents
>>>> shows that lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower
>>>> murder rates.
>>>>
>>>> He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
>>>> perfect direct proportion, it's invalid.
>>>>
>>>> As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
>>>> state his views. But if that's really his point, it
>>>> demonstrates astonishing ignorance of statistics,
>>>> correlation and mathematics.
>>>>
>>> One may well posit from data above that there may well be
>>> other differences in culture, homogeneity, custom, law
>>> enforcement etc beyond firearm ownership as a contributing
>>> variable.
>>
>> Of course. It's a multivariate problem, meaning we should at least make an attempt
>> at controlling for confounding variables. That's why the most meaningful comparisons
>> are between countries of relatively similar technological development, levels of
>> prosperity, etc. But those comparisons don't make the U.S. look good at all.
>>
>> Western Europe and Canada seem reasonably close to the U.S. in most measures,
>> aside from our relative lack of gun laws. Switzerland actually has a true "well regulated
>> militia." What a concept!
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> But Frank, if it is a "multivariate problem, meaning we should at
> least make an attempt controlling for confounding variables" then
> doesn't it apply to auto deaths? After all, the last time I looked
> auto deaths outnumbered gun deaths?

Your phrasing indicates you either don't understand "multivariate,"
don't understand statistical analysis, or have no idea about research
into auto deaths.

It _does_ apply to auto deaths. It's _is_ applied in analyzing those
deaths.

And, once again, you either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge
the logic of examining benefits vs. detriments. The benefits of
automotive transportation are countless. They totally outweigh the real
detriments of auto fatalities.

That's why _all_ nations permit the use of automobiles BUT normally only
by people who have reached a suitable age, have been certified as
capable, have paid for an appropriate license, have renewed that license
periodically, have not committed too many offenses, have registered the
motor vehicle, always display an identifying plate, etc.

Compare that with guns. Many states now allow carrying weapons that are
designed to kill people with no real restrictions - no licenses, no
training, no real restrictions on where the guns can be carried, etc.

And this is done why? For what benefit, other than letting gun fetishist
dweebs feel a little more masculine?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/5/2022 10:33 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Unfair comparison to china in that we have not adopted widespread
> extrajudicial summary execution. Yet.

Wrong. In 2019, there were 14,414 firearm homicides. We've stupidly let
ordinary citizens do the extrajudicial summary executions.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/5/2022 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:55:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
>>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>>
>>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
>>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>
>> It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents shows that
>> lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower murder rates.
>>
>> He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a perfect direct
>> proportion, it's invalid.
>>
>> As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly state his
>> views. But if that's really his point, it demonstrates astonishing
>> ignorance of statistics, correlation and mathematics.
>
> Gee Frank and you claiming to have been a professor and teaching in
> the collage. I had thought that you would be capable of understanding
> what I wrote without a lengthy and detailed explanation.
>
> But O.K, for those who are, well a bit challenged, mentally:
>
> One, who had considered the matter might have come to the conclusion
> that numbers of guns alone just may not be the determining factor.
>
> The U.S. has, for example, 120 guns/100 population and 4.96/100,000
> gun murders.
>
> As I wrote
> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership.
> Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides,
> Norway, 28 and 0.45
> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>
> Or, in comparison to the U.S.
> Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
> the murders,
> Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>
> The Gun Grabbers argue that it is the number of guns that is important
> while international statistics seem to show quite another picture,
> Iceland with about 1/4 of as many guns as the U.S. has only 1/11th the
> number of murders. Logically, if Iceland has 1/4 the numbers of guns
> shouldn't they have 1/4 the number or murders?

So it really is your mathematical ignorance at play here! I'm
disappointed in you. I honestly thought you were more intelligent.

Very briefly: There is absolutely NO requirement of direct proportion
when determining a cause and effect relationship between two variables.
Most cause-and-effect relationships do not follow direct proportion.

Examples abound. Here's one that should be easy for most people. From
NACTO, regarding the chance of a pedestrian dying when hit by a car:

"The average risk of death for a pedestrian reaches 10% at an impact
speed of 23 mph, 25% at 32 mph, 50% at 42 mph, 75% at 50 mph, and 90% at
58 mph."

If the risk were merely proportional to speed, the risk at 42 mph would
be less than 20% - that is, less than double the risk at 23 mph. Instead
it's 50%.

Please don't claim this means impact speed has no effect on pedestrian
survival. Surely even you can't believe that!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 5:42:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:48:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 11:22:25 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 6/5/2022 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> > On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
> >> >> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
> >> >> ownership. In
> >> >> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway,
> >> >> 28 and 0.45
> >> >> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
> >> >>
> >> >> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S.
> >> >> has 17% of
> >> >> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
> >> >> and
> >> >> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
> >> >
> >> > It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents
> >> > shows that lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower
> >> > murder rates.
> >> >
> >> > He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
> >> > perfect direct proportion, it's invalid.
> >> >
> >> > As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
> >> > state his views. But if that's really his point, it
> >> > demonstrates astonishing ignorance of statistics,
> >> > correlation and mathematics.
> >> >
> >> One may well posit from data above that there may well be
> >> other differences in culture, homogeneity, custom, law
> >> enforcement etc beyond firearm ownership as a contributing
> >> variable.
> >
> >Of course. It's a multivariate problem, meaning we should at least make an attempt
> >at controlling for confounding variables. That's why the most meaningful comparisons
> >are between countries of relatively similar technological development, levels of
> >prosperity, etc. But those comparisons don't make the U.S. look good at all.
> >
> >Western Europe and Canada seem reasonably close to the U.S. in most measures,
> >aside from our relative lack of gun laws. Switzerland actually has a true "well regulated
> >militia." What a concept!
> >
> >- Frank Krygowski
> But Frank, if it is a "multivariate problem, meaning we should at
> least make an attempt controlling for confounding variables" then
> doesn't it apply to auto deaths? After all, the last time I looked
> auto deaths outnumbered gun deaths?

No. My sources say 42,915 auto deaths in 2021. 45,222 gun deaths in 2020. I know they are different years. But according to the article it says CDC has not provided 2021 gun deaths yet. So have to use what we have available. Gun and auto deaths are fairly close to each other each year. At least now days anyway.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/17/us-traffic-deaths-hit-16-year-high-in-2021-dot-says.html#:~:text=The%20National%20Highway%20Traffic%20Safety,the%2038%2C824%20fatalities%20in%202020.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

>
> As for your snide comment about the U.S. Constitution, I would remind
> you that your people immigrated to the U.S. years after the "Bill of
> Rights" had been promulgated. Why didn't they "stay home"?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 6:24:32 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:55:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
> >> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
> >> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
> >> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
> >>
> >> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
> >> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
> >> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
> >
> >It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents shows that
> >lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower murder rates.
> >
> >He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a perfect direct
> >proportion, it's invalid.
> >
> >As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly state his
> >views. But if that's really his point, it demonstrates astonishing
> >ignorance of statistics, correlation and mathematics.
> Gee Frank and you claiming to have been a professor and teaching in
> the collage. I had thought that you would be capable of understanding
> what I wrote without a lengthy and detailed explanation.
>
> But O.K, for those who are, well a bit challenged, mentally:
>
> One, who had considered the matter might have come to the conclusion
> that numbers of guns alone just may not be the determining factor.
>
> The U.S. has, for example, 120 guns/100 population and 4.96/100,000
> gun murders.
>
> As I wrote
> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership.
> Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides,
> Norway, 28 and 0.45
> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
> Or, in comparison to the U.S.
> Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
> the murders,
> Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
> The Gun Grabbers argue that it is the number of guns that is important
> while international statistics seem to show quite another picture,
> Iceland with about 1/4 of as many guns as the U.S. has only 1/11th the
> number of murders. Logically, if Iceland has 1/4 the numbers of guns
> shouldn't they have 1/4 the number or murders?
>
> Have the Gun Grabbers got it wrong?
> Will Frank leap into the fray with some more wild accusations?
>
> Or will sanity survive?
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

???????
All of the countries you listed have lower gun ownership, per capita guns, than the USA. And all have lower gun death rates. No, the correlation or percentage declines are not an exact match. But I am not sure that is too relevant. Less guns equals less gun deaths. Good enough correlation for me.

John, you seem to believe there should be an exact matching of the percentages. For some reason. Lets think of another example where this does not apply. How about horsepower in cars and 1/4 mile speed or top speed. A search on Indy Car horsepower says they have between 550-700 horsepower. And a search on Indy Car speeds results in speeds around 240 mph. A search on Toyota Corolla horsepower says they have between 139-169 horsepower. A search on Toyota Corolla speed says they reach 117 mph. So the Indy cars have four times more horsepower but only go twice as fast. Illogical according to your above rationale.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 21:59:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/5/2022 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:48:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 11:22:25 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 6/5/2022 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>>>>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>>>>>> ownership. In
>>>>>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway,
>>>>>> 28 and 0.45
>>>>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S.
>>>>>> has 17% of
>>>>>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents
>>>>> shows that lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower
>>>>> murder rates.
>>>>>
>>>>> He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
>>>>> perfect direct proportion, it's invalid.
>>>>>
>>>>> As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
>>>>> state his views. But if that's really his point, it
>>>>> demonstrates astonishing ignorance of statistics,
>>>>> correlation and mathematics.
>>>>>
>>>> One may well posit from data above that there may well be
>>>> other differences in culture, homogeneity, custom, law
>>>> enforcement etc beyond firearm ownership as a contributing
>>>> variable.
>>>
>>> Of course. It's a multivariate problem, meaning we should at least make an attempt
>>> at controlling for confounding variables. That's why the most meaningful comparisons
>>> are between countries of relatively similar technological development, levels of
>>> prosperity, etc. But those comparisons don't make the U.S. look good at all.
>>>
>>> Western Europe and Canada seem reasonably close to the U.S. in most measures,
>>> aside from our relative lack of gun laws. Switzerland actually has a true "well regulated
>>> militia." What a concept!
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> But Frank, if it is a "multivariate problem, meaning we should at
>> least make an attempt controlling for confounding variables" then
>> doesn't it apply to auto deaths? After all, the last time I looked
>> auto deaths outnumbered gun deaths?
>
>Your phrasing indicates you either don't understand "multivariate,"
>don't understand statistical analysis, or have no idea about research
>into auto deaths.
>
>It _does_ apply to auto deaths. It's _is_ applied in analyzing those
>deaths.
>
>And, once again, you either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge
>the logic of examining benefits vs. detriments. The benefits of
>automotive transportation are countless. They totally outweigh the real
>detriments of auto fatalities.
>
>That's why _all_ nations permit the use of automobiles BUT normally only
>by people who have reached a suitable age, have been certified as
>capable, have paid for an appropriate license, have renewed that license
>periodically, have not committed too many offenses, have registered the
>motor vehicle, always display an identifying plate, etc.
>
>Compare that with guns. Many states now allow carrying weapons that are
>designed to kill people with no real restrictions - no licenses, no
>training, no real restrictions on where the guns can be carried, etc.
>
Really? Are you sure? I had a read and see that many states do in fact
have laws regarding firearms. And NO I did not study all fifty of them
in detail but even a casual reading demonstrates that your statement,
above, is the Gun Grabber's usual lies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state

>And this is done why? For what benefit, other than letting gun fetishist
>dweebs feel a little more masculine?

Really? Truly? Or is just one of the things that the Gun Grabbers say
in order to influence the gullible?

I owned a rifle from the time was 12 years old, I traded guns, bought
and sold them, I modified them, I built them from scratch, I shot in
pistol matches and won two state championships, and was selected to
shoot for the Strategic Air Command in the "Inter Service Matches". I
even tried out for the Big Bore team one year and won a place.

And... in more then 70 years of futzing around with guns and shooters
I have never, repeat never, encounter these fetishists that you
mention.

Would you care to elaborate? You know, your vast experience in the gun
business, shooting. etc. You know some activity where you gained some
knowledge of the subject?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 20:17:06 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 6:24:32 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:55:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>> >> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
>> >> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
>> >> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>> >>
>> >> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
>> >> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
>> >> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>> >
>> >It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents shows that
>> >lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower murder rates.
>> >
>> >He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a perfect direct
>> >proportion, it's invalid.
>> >
>> >As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly state his
>> >views. But if that's really his point, it demonstrates astonishing
>> >ignorance of statistics, correlation and mathematics.
>> Gee Frank and you claiming to have been a professor and teaching in
>> the collage. I had thought that you would be capable of understanding
>> what I wrote without a lengthy and detailed explanation.
>>
>> But O.K, for those who are, well a bit challenged, mentally:
>>
>> One, who had considered the matter might have come to the conclusion
>> that numbers of guns alone just may not be the determining factor.
>>
>> The U.S. has, for example, 120 guns/100 population and 4.96/100,000
>> gun murders.
>>
>> As I wrote
>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership.
>> Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides,
>> Norway, 28 and 0.45
>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>> Or, in comparison to the U.S.
>> Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
>> the murders,
>> Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>> The Gun Grabbers argue that it is the number of guns that is important
>> while international statistics seem to show quite another picture,
>> Iceland with about 1/4 of as many guns as the U.S. has only 1/11th the
>> number of murders. Logically, if Iceland has 1/4 the numbers of guns
>> shouldn't they have 1/4 the number or murders?
>>
>> Have the Gun Grabbers got it wrong?
>> Will Frank leap into the fray with some more wild accusations?
>>
>> Or will sanity survive?
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>???????
>All of the countries you listed have lower gun ownership, per capita guns, than the USA. And all have lower gun death rates. No, the correlation or percentage declines are not an exact match. But I am not sure that is too relevant. Less guns equals less gun deaths. Good enough correlation for me.
>
>John, you seem to believe there should be an exact matching of the percentages. For some reason. Lets think of another example where this does not apply. How about horsepower in cars and 1/4 mile speed or top speed. A search on Indy Car horsepower says they have between 550-700 horsepower. And a search on Indy Car speeds results in speeds around 240 mph. A search on Toyota Corolla horsepower says they have between 139-169 horsepower. A search on Toyota Corolla speed says they reach 117 mph. So the Indy cars have four times more horsepower but only go twice as fast. Illogical according to your above rationale.

Yup, fewer knitting needles obviously results in less knitting.

As for percentages when one country has.1/4 the number of guns and
only 1/11th the number of gun murders it is sort of hard not to assume
that there just might be something other then sheer numbers of guns
that cause the U.S. high gun deaths.

In fact the FBI reports showing that knives, clubs and even hands and
feet all kill more then those demon inspired assault rifles ought to
tell any one with normal intelligence? comprehension? something.

In fact this is what is terrifying about the Gun Grabbers. Their
repeating lies over and over and over.

But, of course as Dr. Gobbels said to have stated, "“If you tell a lie
big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to
believe it".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 20:01:57 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 5:42:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:48:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 11:22:25 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 6/5/2022 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> > On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>> >> >> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>> >> >> ownership. In
>> >> >> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway,
>> >> >> 28 and 0.45
>> >> >> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S.
>> >> >> has 17% of
>> >> >> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>> >> >
>> >> > It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents
>> >> > shows that lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower
>> >> > murder rates.
>> >> >
>> >> > He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
>> >> > perfect direct proportion, it's invalid.
>> >> >
>> >> > As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
>> >> > state his views. But if that's really his point, it
>> >> > demonstrates astonishing ignorance of statistics,
>> >> > correlation and mathematics.
>> >> >
>> >> One may well posit from data above that there may well be
>> >> other differences in culture, homogeneity, custom, law
>> >> enforcement etc beyond firearm ownership as a contributing
>> >> variable.
>> >
>> >Of course. It's a multivariate problem, meaning we should at least make an attempt
>> >at controlling for confounding variables. That's why the most meaningful comparisons
>> >are between countries of relatively similar technological development, levels of
>> >prosperity, etc. But those comparisons don't make the U.S. look good at all.
>> >
>> >Western Europe and Canada seem reasonably close to the U.S. in most measures,
>> >aside from our relative lack of gun laws. Switzerland actually has a true "well regulated
>> >militia." What a concept!
>> >
>> >- Frank Krygowski
>> But Frank, if it is a "multivariate problem, meaning we should at
>> least make an attempt controlling for confounding variables" then
>> doesn't it apply to auto deaths? After all, the last time I looked
>> auto deaths outnumbered gun deaths?
>
>No. My sources say 42,915 auto deaths in 2021. 45,222 gun deaths in 2020. I know they are different years. But according to the article it says CDC has not provided 2021 gun deaths yet. So have to use what we have available. Gun and auto deaths are fairly close to each other each year. At least now days anyway.
>
>https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/17/us-traffic-deaths-hit-16-year-high-in-2021-dot-says.html#:~:text=The%20National%20Highway%20Traffic%20Safety,the%2038%2C824%20fatalities%20in%202020.
>
>https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/
>

Yup. And as they wrote that more then half are suicides.
The CDC says that 46,000 died in suicides in 2020... and that 1.2
million attempted suicide.

Some more data:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm
All suicides
Number of deaths: 45,979
Number of deaths by firearm: 24,292
Number of deaths by suffocation: 12,495
Number of deaths by poison: 5,528

The question then becomes how sincere are most suicides? If they don't
have access to a gun will they just shrug their shoulders and forget
the whole damned idea?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 6/5/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Jun 2022 09:33:07 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 6/4/2022 7:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 15:31:24 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 10:36:25 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 6/3/2022 10:26 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... But perhaps it is a matter of national aggressiveness? After all the
>>>>>> U.S. has been at war, military assistance, sticking their nose into
>>>>>> other country's business, whatever, for more then 90% of their
>>>>>> history.
>>>>> John, your arguments are now down to the level of "any port in a storm,
>>>>> no logic necessary."
>>>>>
>>>>> As in "Maybe the crazy proliferation of guns has nothing to do with
>>>>> America's immense gun crime rate! Maybe it's the wrong breakfast cereal!
>>>>> Maybe it's because of allergies! Maybe its... um, _anything_ but having
>>>>> more guns than people!"
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> Frank, its pornography, not going to church, black kids only having one parent, and lots of white kids only having one parent, video games, CRT, having more than one door into a school, mental health of course, and a lot of other things too. Republicans have lots and lots of reasons for why kids are murdered at schools. Or them black illegal immigrants up in Buffalo who were just fake killed maybe. And Tommy and I saw a failed Republican candidate in Delaware who say its the Democrats who did it to make a talking point about guns and distract from inflation. Lots and lots and lots of all good valid reasons why those children were gunned down. But guns ain't one of the reasons. No sir. Moscow Mitch even said it was not guns. No no no.
>>>
>>> Actually it isn't simply "gun crime rate", it seems to be "crime". The
>>> U.S. has, I believe, some 2,094,000 people in jail. Approaching twice
>>> the number of China, a country with something like 4 times the
>>> population.
>>>
>>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
>>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>>
>>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
>>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>>
>>
>> Unfair comparison to china in that we have not adopted
>> widespread extrajudicial summary execution. Yet.
>
> On the other hand the "crime rate" in the U.S. is 47.81/100,000 and in
> China it is 30.14/100,000
> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
> One might say, "If it works, don't knock it" (:-)
>

I assume the rate in Singapore (where laws are enforced) is
similar even without savagery.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/5/2022 9:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/5/2022 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:55:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>>>> ownership. In
>>>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides,
>>>> Norway, 28 and 0.45
>>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>>>
>>>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the
>>>> U.S. has 17% of
>>>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the
>>>> murders and
>>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>>
>>> It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he
>>> presents shows that
>>> lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower murder
>>> rates.
>>>
>>> He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
>>> perfect direct
>>> proportion, it's invalid.
>>>
>>> As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
>>> state his
>>> views. But if that's really his point, it demonstrates
>>> astonishing
>>> ignorance of statistics, correlation and mathematics.
>>
>> Gee Frank and you claiming to have been a professor and
>> teaching in
>> the collage. I had thought that you would be capable of
>> understanding
>> what I wrote without a lengthy and detailed explanation.
>>
>> But O.K, for those who are, well a bit challenged, mentally:
>>
>> One, who had considered the matter might have come to the
>> conclusion
>> that numbers of guns alone just may not be the determining
>> factor.
>>
>> The U.S. has, for example, 120 guns/100 population and
>> 4.96/100,000
>> gun murders.
>>
>> As I wrote
>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>> ownership.
>> Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides,
>> Norway, 28 and 0.45
>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>
>> Or, in comparison to the U.S.
>> Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has
>> 17% of
>> the murders,
>> Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>
>> The Gun Grabbers argue that it is the number of guns that
>> is important
>> while international statistics seem to show quite another
>> picture,
>> Iceland with about 1/4 of as many guns as the U.S. has
>> only 1/11th the
>> number of murders. Logically, if Iceland has 1/4 the
>> numbers of guns
>> shouldn't they have 1/4 the number or murders?
>
> So it really is your mathematical ignorance at play here!
> I'm disappointed in you. I honestly thought you were more
> intelligent.
>
> Very briefly: There is absolutely NO requirement of direct
> proportion when determining a cause and effect relationship
> between two variables. Most cause-and-effect relationships
> do not follow direct proportion.
>
> Examples abound. Here's one that should be easy for most
> people. From NACTO, regarding the chance of a pedestrian
> dying when hit by a car:
>
> "The average risk of death for a pedestrian reaches 10% at
> an impact speed of 23 mph, 25% at 32 mph, 50% at 42 mph, 75%
> at 50 mph, and 90% at 58 mph."
>
> If the risk were merely proportional to speed, the risk at
> 42 mph would be less than 20% - that is, less than double
> the risk at 23 mph. Instead it's 50%.
>
> Please don't claim this means impact speed has no effect on
> pedestrian survival. Surely even you can't believe that!
>

Did that set of numbers have a point?
In Chicago it's 18% so far for firearms:
http://heyjackass.com/

'year to date 1285 shot 239 dead'

Which leads to a ridiculous extrapolation that a national
maximum speed limit of ~28mph could possibly reduce
pedestrian deaths to the level of Chicago firearms fatal
incidents. (!)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/5/2022 10:35 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 21:59:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/5/2022 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:48:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 11:22:25 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 6/5/2022 9:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>>>>>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>>>>>>> ownership. In
>>>>>>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway,
>>>>>>> 28 and 0.45
>>>>>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S.
>>>>>>> has 17% of
>>>>>>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents
>>>>>> shows that lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower
>>>>>> murder rates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
>>>>>> perfect direct proportion, it's invalid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
>>>>>> state his views. But if that's really his point, it
>>>>>> demonstrates astonishing ignorance of statistics,
>>>>>> correlation and mathematics.
>>>>>>
>>>>> One may well posit from data above that there may well be
>>>>> other differences in culture, homogeneity, custom, law
>>>>> enforcement etc beyond firearm ownership as a contributing
>>>>> variable.
>>>>
>>>> Of course. It's a multivariate problem, meaning we should at least make an attempt
>>>> at controlling for confounding variables. That's why the most meaningful comparisons
>>>> are between countries of relatively similar technological development, levels of
>>>> prosperity, etc. But those comparisons don't make the U.S. look good at all.
>>>>
>>>> Western Europe and Canada seem reasonably close to the U.S. in most measures,
>>>> aside from our relative lack of gun laws. Switzerland actually has a true "well regulated
>>>> militia." What a concept!
>>>>
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> But Frank, if it is a "multivariate problem, meaning we should at
>>> least make an attempt controlling for confounding variables" then
>>> doesn't it apply to auto deaths? After all, the last time I looked
>>> auto deaths outnumbered gun deaths?
>>
>> Your phrasing indicates you either don't understand "multivariate,"
>> don't understand statistical analysis, or have no idea about research
>> into auto deaths.
>>
>> It _does_ apply to auto deaths. It's _is_ applied in analyzing those
>> deaths.
>>
>> And, once again, you either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge
>> the logic of examining benefits vs. detriments. The benefits of
>> automotive transportation are countless. They totally outweigh the real
>> detriments of auto fatalities.
>>
>> That's why _all_ nations permit the use of automobiles BUT normally only
>> by people who have reached a suitable age, have been certified as
>> capable, have paid for an appropriate license, have renewed that license
>> periodically, have not committed too many offenses, have registered the
>> motor vehicle, always display an identifying plate, etc.
>>
>> Compare that with guns. Many states now allow carrying weapons that are
>> designed to kill people with no real restrictions - no licenses, no
>> training, no real restrictions on where the guns can be carried, etc.
>>
> Really? Are you sure? I had a read and see that many states do in fact
> have laws regarding firearms. And NO I did not study all fifty of them
> in detail but even a casual reading demonstrates that your statement,
> above, is the Gun Grabber's usual lies.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state
>
>> And this is done why? For what benefit, other than letting gun fetishist
>> dweebs feel a little more masculine?
>
> Really? Truly? Or is just one of the things that the Gun Grabbers say
> in order to influence the gullible?
>
> I owned a rifle from the time was 12 years old, I traded guns, bought
> and sold them, I modified them, I built them from scratch, I shot in
> pistol matches and won two state championships, and was selected to
> shoot for the Strategic Air Command in the "Inter Service Matches". I
> even tried out for the Big Bore team one year and won a place.
>
> And... in more then 70 years of futzing around with guns and shooters
> I have never, repeat never, encounter these fetishists that you
> mention.
>
> Would you care to elaborate? You know, your vast experience in the gun
> business, shooting. etc. You know some activity where you gained some
> knowledge of the subject?
>

Much like the 'Mad Max style big loud black pickup truck'
owner, the stereotype of fiction is much more prevalent than
the actual outlier losers themselves.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/5/2022 11:35 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 21:59:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> That's why _all_ nations permit the use of automobiles BUT normally only
>> by people who have reached a suitable age, have been certified as
>> capable, have paid for an appropriate license, have renewed that license
>> periodically, have not committed too many offenses, have registered the
>> motor vehicle, always display an identifying plate, etc.
>>
>> Compare that with guns. Many states now allow carrying weapons that are
>> designed to kill people with no real restrictions - no licenses, no
>> training, no real restrictions on where the guns can be carried, etc.
>>
> Really? Are you sure? I had a read and see that many states do in fact
> have laws regarding firearms. And NO I did not study all fifty of them
> in detail but even a casual reading demonstrates that your statement,
> above, is the Gun Grabber's usual lies.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state

Did you even read what you cited? Are you emulating Tommy again?

Look at Arizona, for just one example among many, which I chose because
it was on the first screen. No license to buy or own. No permit to
carry. No training required. Almost no _real_ restrictions on where to
carry - as in, our local library has a "no firearms" sign, but
librarians don't frisk those entering.

Yet in most states you need a learner's permit and temporary license to
learn to drive a car, you have to pass a competency test to get a normal
driver's license, you need liability insurance, and even those are not
permanent. They must be periodically renewed. Because you could hurt or
kill someone if you drive badly.

Why should similar restrictions not apply to devices _designed_ to hurt
or kill someone?

>> And this is done why? For what benefit, other than letting gun fetishist
>> dweebs feel a little more masculine?
>
> Really? Truly? Or is just one of the things that the Gun Grabbers say
> in order to influence the gullible?

You've never been able to list any other advantages.

>
> I owned a rifle from the time was 12 years old, I traded guns, bought
> and sold them, I modified them, I built them from scratch, I shot in
> pistol matches and won two state championships, and was selected to
> shoot for the Strategic Air Command in the "Inter Service Matches". I
> even tried out for the Big Bore team one year and won a place.
>
> And... in more then 70 years of futzing around with guns and shooters
> I have never, repeat never, encounter these fetishists that you
> mention.
>
> Would you care to elaborate?

I know pretty well a guy who is a serious firearms design expert. He was
offered a job by the Australian government, to move there and design
weapons. He's also a gun nut, with a closet-sized safe full of high
powered weaponry. He's the guy who invited me to a machine gun shoot,
where they spend all day firing heavy weapons at junk cars,
refrigerators, etc. There are also occasional bombs involved.

I had the acquaintance of a guy who lived about 200 yards away. He had a
locked shed in his backyard packed with guns of (mostly) the type I
mention here, plus thousands of rounds of ammunition. According to his
next door neighbor (an ex-military guy I know very well) this guy was
quite nuts, and convinced the government and/or the black people were
going to overrun his home. When he passed away the gun collection became
a real problem for his widow.

I've mentioned the guy who, at a folk music concert, told me he _never_
leaves the house without his concealed carry pistol. This guy's belly
was so big he used a special stand to hold his guitar in front of him
when he played. But he obviously derived courage from his hidden gun. At
a folk music concert!

Do you really need more?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDt7x_eX4AMzAGQ.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQy6wSCpQ_8Briex6LAtZ60QMye-PPq3ra92g&usqp=CAU

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/6/2022 8:51 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/5/2022 9:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/5/2022 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:55:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>>>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>>>>> ownership. In
>>>>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides,
>>>>> Norway, 28 and 0.45
>>>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the
>>>>> U.S. has 17% of
>>>>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the
>>>>> murders and
>>>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>>>
>>>> It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he
>>>> presents shows that
>>>> lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower murder
>>>> rates.
>>>>
>>>> He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a
>>>> perfect direct
>>>> proportion, it's invalid.
>>>>
>>>> As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly
>>>> state his
>>>> views. But if that's really his point, it demonstrates
>>>> astonishing
>>>> ignorance of statistics, correlation and mathematics.
>>>
>>> Gee Frank and you claiming to have been a professor and
>>> teaching in
>>> the collage. I had thought that you would be capable of
>>> understanding
>>> what I wrote without a lengthy and detailed explanation.
>>>
>>> But O.K, for those who are, well a bit challenged, mentally:
>>>
>>> One, who had considered the matter might have come to the
>>> conclusion
>>> that numbers of guns alone just may not be the determining
>>> factor.
>>>
>>> The U.S. has, for example, 120 guns/100 population and
>>> 4.96/100,000
>>> gun murders.
>>>
>>> As I wrote
>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun
>>> ownership.
>>> Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides,
>>> Norway, 28 and 0.45
>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>>
>>> Or, in comparison to the U.S.
>>> Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has
>>> 17% of
>>> the murders,
>>> Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>>
>>> The Gun Grabbers argue that it is the number of guns that
>>> is important
>>> while international statistics seem to show quite another
>>> picture,
>>> Iceland with about 1/4 of as many guns as the U.S. has
>>> only 1/11th the
>>> number of murders. Logically, if Iceland has 1/4 the
>>> numbers of guns
>>> shouldn't they have 1/4 the number or murders?
>>
>> So it really is your mathematical ignorance at play here!
>> I'm disappointed in you. I honestly thought you were more
>> intelligent.
>>
>> Very briefly: There is absolutely NO requirement of direct
>> proportion when determining a cause and effect relationship
>> between two variables. Most cause-and-effect relationships
>> do not follow direct proportion.
>>
>> Examples abound. Here's one that should be easy for most
>> people. From NACTO, regarding the chance of a pedestrian
>> dying when hit by a car:
>>
>> "The average risk of death for a pedestrian reaches 10% at
>> an impact speed of 23 mph, 25% at 32 mph, 50% at 42 mph, 75%
>> at 50 mph, and 90% at 58 mph."
>>
>> If the risk were merely proportional to speed, the risk at
>> 42 mph would be less than 20% - that is, less than double
>> the risk at 23 mph. Instead it's 50%.
>>
>> Please don't claim this means impact speed has no effect on
>> pedestrian survival. Surely even you can't believe that!
>>
>
> Did that set of numbers have a point?

It was chosen as an example that correlation, even extremely strong
correlation, does NOT have to be directly proportional.

It's a mathematical thing. If you need further explanation, just ask.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/6/2022 12:00 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 20:17:06 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 6:24:32 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:55:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/4/2022 8:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And Homicide rate and gun ownership?
>>>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership. In
>>>>> contrast Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides, Norway, 28 and 0.45
>>>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
>>>>> the murders, Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders and
>>>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>>>
>>>> It's difficult to discern John's point. The data he presents shows that
>>>> lower gun ownership rates correlate to much lower murder rates.
>>>>
>>>> He seems to be saying that since the correlation is not a perfect direct
>>>> proportion, it's invalid.
>>>>
>>>> As usual, John does not exhibit the confidence to clearly state his
>>>> views. But if that's really his point, it demonstrates astonishing
>>>> ignorance of statistics, correlation and mathematics.
>>> Gee Frank and you claiming to have been a professor and teaching in
>>> the collage. I had thought that you would be capable of understanding
>>> what I wrote without a lengthy and detailed explanation.
>>>
>>> But O.K, for those who are, well a bit challenged, mentally:
>>>
>>> One, who had considered the matter might have come to the conclusion
>>> that numbers of guns alone just may not be the determining factor.
>>>
>>> The U.S. has, for example, 120 guns/100 population and 4.96/100,000
>>> gun murders.
>>>
>>> As I wrote
>>> The U.S. has 4.96/100,000 homicide rate and 120/100 gun ownership.
>>> Iceland has 31.7 guns and 0.89 homicides,
>>> Norway, 28 and 0.45
>>> and Switzerland 27.6 and 0.59.
>>> Or, in comparison to the U.S.
>>> Iceland with 36% of the number of firearms as the U.S. has 17% of
>>> the murders,
>>> Norway, 23% of the guns and 9% of the murders
>>> Switzerland with 23% of the guns and 12% of the murders.
>>> The Gun Grabbers argue that it is the number of guns that is important
>>> while international statistics seem to show quite another picture,
>>> Iceland with about 1/4 of as many guns as the U.S. has only 1/11th the
>>> number of murders. Logically, if Iceland has 1/4 the numbers of guns
>>> shouldn't they have 1/4 the number or murders?
>>>
>>> Have the Gun Grabbers got it wrong?
>>> Will Frank leap into the fray with some more wild accusations?
>>>
>>> Or will sanity survive?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> ???????
>> All of the countries you listed have lower gun ownership, per capita guns, than the USA. And all have lower gun death rates. No, the correlation or percentage declines are not an exact match. But I am not sure that is too relevant. Less guns equals less gun deaths. Good enough correlation for me.
>>
>> John, you seem to believe there should be an exact matching of the percentages. For some reason. Lets think of another example where this does not apply. How about horsepower in cars and 1/4 mile speed or top speed. A search on Indy Car horsepower says they have between 550-700 horsepower. And a search on Indy Car speeds results in speeds around 240 mph. A search on Toyota Corolla horsepower says they have between 139-169 horsepower. A search on Toyota Corolla speed says they reach 117 mph. So the Indy cars have four times more horsepower but only go twice as fast. Illogical according to your above rationale.
>
> Yup, fewer knitting needles obviously results in less knitting.
>
> As for percentages when one country has.1/4 the number of guns and
> only 1/11th the number of gun murders it is sort of hard not to assume
> that there just might be something other then sheer numbers of guns
> that cause the U.S. high gun deaths.

Nobody claims that _only_ the number of guns affects the gun murder
rate. But it's obvious that it is a dominant factor.

Again, you're somehow hung up on the idea that correlation requires a
direct proportion or a precise inverse proportion. A moment's thought
would tell you that's not true.

I gave some data on car-pedestrian fatalities vs. speed. The correlation
is very strong, and far beyond simply proportional.

Aerodynamic drag on a cyclist correlates with relative airspeed. It's
far beyond directly proportional. Doubling airspeed quadruples drag.

Length of daylight correlates with the calendar. It's not proportional.
It's a much more complex function.

Countless examples exist. I'm honestly very surprised that this is
difficult for you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:00:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/5/2022 11:35 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 21:59:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's why _all_ nations permit the use of automobiles BUT normally only
>>> by people who have reached a suitable age, have been certified as
>>> capable, have paid for an appropriate license, have renewed that license
>>> periodically, have not committed too many offenses, have registered the
>>> motor vehicle, always display an identifying plate, etc.
>>>
>>> Compare that with guns. Many states now allow carrying weapons that are
>>> designed to kill people with no real restrictions - no licenses, no
>>> training, no real restrictions on where the guns can be carried, etc.
>>>
>> Really? Are you sure? I had a read and see that many states do in fact
>> have laws regarding firearms. And NO I did not study all fifty of them
>> in detail but even a casual reading demonstrates that your statement,
>> above, is the Gun Grabber's usual lies.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state
>
>Did you even read what you cited? Are you emulating Tommy again?
>
>Look at Arizona, for just one example among many, which I chose because
>it was on the first screen. No license to buy or own. No permit to
>carry. No training required. Almost no _real_ restrictions on where to
>carry - as in, our local library has a "no firearms" sign, but
>librarians don't frisk those entering.
>

O.K. look at Arizona.... Gun ownership - 32.3/100,000 and gun murder -
2.5/100,000, not bat at all, well unless you count Wyoming with 53.8
guns and 1.7 murders. Lets see... looks like that have no firearm
controls either.

So much for that argument.

Or is this senile dementia taking hold?
I read, just the other day about a study of dementia in elderly men
and it seems that some studies have demonstrated that diminishing
levels of testosterone are related with increased levels of dementia
in elderly men.
--
Cheers,

John B.