On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:54:54 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/4/2023 2:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:04:56 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/4/2023 1:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 11:22:23 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
> >>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
> >>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
> >>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
> >>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
> >>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
> >>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
> >>>> plays etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
> >>>
> >>> Common use of writing didn't really immerge until after 300 AD and for a long time it was all handled by scribes and not common people.
> >>>
> >>> https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2019/2019.04.45#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20the%20articles%20are%20concerned%20with,expanse%2C%20and%20over%20a%20timespan%20of%20many%20centuries.
> >>>
> >>> "Rufino’s subject is bronze tablets, mostly fragments of legal inscriptions. They are remnants of laws displayed in public; a fact that does not necessarily imply that people were able to read them. Their function was ideological rather than functional: their presence was a grandiloquent reminder of the ubiquity of Roman power."
> >>>
> >>
> >> Who's Cicero? Chopped liver?
> >>
> >> I have read voluminously from before and through The
> >> Republic into the pre Christian empire (In translation
> >> mostly, my Latin's halting and I can't manage more than a
> >> few words in Greek).
> >>
> >> Gaius Iulio himself, Cicero, Seutonius, Tacitus, Juvenal,
> >> Titus Livius, Josephus, Polybios, Herodotus, Plato... all
> >> before 300AD.
> >>
> >> Hey I bet even you read Euclid in the 7th grade!
> >>
> >> pfffft.
> >
> > None of the classes I took in school moved into geometry which would have been college path. But I did study Geometry and Trigonometry on my own because it had practical value all the way from land to electronics though at the time it was all tube electronics and you have to be able to use geometry to measure the delay time from signal to response. Seems to me that the book was by someone named Weil. Me and the local electronics nut had a joke about "Get Weil Cards"
> >
> Well, he's been well read for 2300 years and still in print!
>
> https://www.alibris.com/Euclid-Books-I-II-Classic-Reprint-Charles-L-Dodgson/book/32319980?matches=5
>
> Few authors can make that claim.
>
> Back to your recent comments, the Romans of the Republic and
> Empire were master engineers with large numbers of men
> educated in Euclid and other works.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

When was the last time you used Geometry?

On 1/4/2023 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:54:54 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/4/2023 2:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:04:56 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/4/2023 1:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 11:22:23 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
>>>>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
>>>>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
>>>>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
>>>>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>>>>> plays etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
>>>>>
>>>>> Common use of writing didn't really immerge until after 300 AD and for a long time it was all handled by scribes and not common people.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2019/2019.04.45#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20the%20articles%20are%20concerned%20with,expanse%2C%20and%20over%20a%20timespan%20of%20many%20centuries.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Rufino’s subject is bronze tablets, mostly fragments of legal inscriptions. They are remnants of laws displayed in public; a fact that does not necessarily imply that people were able to read them. Their function was ideological rather than functional: their presence was a grandiloquent reminder of the ubiquity of Roman power."
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who's Cicero? Chopped liver?
>>>>
>>>> I have read voluminously from before and through The
>>>> Republic into the pre Christian empire (In translation
>>>> mostly, my Latin's halting and I can't manage more than a
>>>> few words in Greek).
>>>>
>>>> Gaius Iulio himself, Cicero, Seutonius, Tacitus, Juvenal,
>>>> Titus Livius, Josephus, Polybios, Herodotus, Plato... all
>>>> before 300AD.
>>>>
>>>> Hey I bet even you read Euclid in the 7th grade!
>>>>
>>>> pfffft.
>>>
>>> None of the classes I took in school moved into geometry which would have been college path. But I did study Geometry and Trigonometry on my own because it had practical value all the way from land to electronics though at the time it was all tube electronics and you have to be able to use geometry to measure the delay time from signal to response. Seems to me that the book was by someone named Weil. Me and the local electronics nut had a joke about "Get Weil Cards"
>>>
>> Well, he's been well read for 2300 years and still in print!
>>
>> https://www.alibris.com/Euclid-Books-I-II-Classic-Reprint-Charles-L-Dodgson/book/32319980?matches=5
>>
>> Few authors can make that claim.
>>
>> Back to your recent comments, the Romans of the Republic and
>> Empire were master engineers with large numbers of men
>> educated in Euclid and other works.

> When was the last time you used Geometry?
>

About 11:00 am today.

Diameter * 3.14159 gives you circumference so along with
600sfm (turning cutting speed for aluminum) you get correct
machine RPM setting. Which is a lot faster than the same
operation in steel.

Where I do not use classic geometry is frame repair.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 04 Jan 2023 16:04:01 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/4/2023 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:54:54 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/4/2023 2:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:04:56 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/4/2023 1:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 11:22:23 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
>>>>>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
>>>>>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
>>>>>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>>>>>> plays etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Common use of writing didn't really immerge until after 300 AD and for a long time it was all handled by scribes and not common people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2019/2019.04.45#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20the%20articles%20are%20concerned%20with,expanse%2C%20and%20over%20a%20timespan%20of%20many%20centuries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Rufino’s subject is bronze tablets, mostly fragments of legal inscriptions. They are remnants of laws displayed in public; a fact that does not necessarily imply that people were able to read them. Their function was ideological rather than functional: their presence was a grandiloquent reminder of the ubiquity of Roman power."
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Who's Cicero? Chopped liver?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have read voluminously from before and through The
>>>>> Republic into the pre Christian empire (In translation
>>>>> mostly, my Latin's halting and I can't manage more than a
>>>>> few words in Greek).
>>>>>
>>>>> Gaius Iulio himself, Cicero, Seutonius, Tacitus, Juvenal,
>>>>> Titus Livius, Josephus, Polybios, Herodotus, Plato... all
>>>>> before 300AD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey I bet even you read Euclid in the 7th grade!
>>>>>
>>>>> pfffft.
>>>>
>>>> None of the classes I took in school moved into geometry which would have been college path. But I did study Geometry and Trigonometry on my own because it had practical value all the way from land to electronics though at the time it was all tube electronics and you have to be able to use geometry to measure the delay time from signal to response. Seems to me that the book was by someone named Weil. Me and the local electronics nut had a joke about "Get Weil Cards"
>>>>
>>> Well, he's been well read for 2300 years and still in print!
>>>
>>> https://www.alibris.com/Euclid-Books-I-II-Classic-Reprint-Charles-L-Dodgson/book/32319980?matches=5
>>>
>>> Few authors can make that claim.
>>>
>>> Back to your recent comments, the Romans of the Republic and
>>> Empire were master engineers with large numbers of men
>>> educated in Euclid and other works.
>
>> When was the last time you used Geometry?
>>
>
>About 11:00 am today.
>
>Diameter * 3.14159 gives you circumference so along with
>600sfm (turning cutting speed for aluminum) you get correct
>machine RPM setting. Which is a lot faster than the same
>operation in steel.
>
>Where I do not use classic geometry is frame repair.

I just calulated circumference this morning to order rim tape.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 2:04:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/4/2023 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:54:54 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/4/2023 2:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:04:56 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/4/2023 1:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 11:22:23 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
> >>>>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
> >>>>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
> >>>>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
> >>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
> >>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
> >>>>>> plays etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Common use of writing didn't really immerge until after 300 AD and for a long time it was all handled by scribes and not common people.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2019/2019.04.45#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20the%20articles%20are%20concerned%20with,expanse%2C%20and%20over%20a%20timespan%20of%20many%20centuries.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Rufino’s subject is bronze tablets, mostly fragments of legal inscriptions. They are remnants of laws displayed in public; a fact that does not necessarily imply that people were able to read them. Their function was ideological rather than functional: their presence was a grandiloquent reminder of the ubiquity of Roman power."
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Who's Cicero? Chopped liver?
> >>>>
> >>>> I have read voluminously from before and through The
> >>>> Republic into the pre Christian empire (In translation
> >>>> mostly, my Latin's halting and I can't manage more than a
> >>>> few words in Greek).
> >>>>
> >>>> Gaius Iulio himself, Cicero, Seutonius, Tacitus, Juvenal,
> >>>> Titus Livius, Josephus, Polybios, Herodotus, Plato... all
> >>>> before 300AD.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hey I bet even you read Euclid in the 7th grade!
> >>>>
> >>>> pfffft.
> >>>
> >>> None of the classes I took in school moved into geometry which would have been college path. But I did study Geometry and Trigonometry on my own because it had practical value all the way from land to electronics though at the time it was all tube electronics and you have to be able to use geometry to measure the delay time from signal to response. Seems to me that the book was by someone named Weil. Me and the local electronics nut had a joke about "Get Weil Cards"
> >>>
> >> Well, he's been well read for 2300 years and still in print!
> >>
> >> https://www.alibris.com/Euclid-Books-I-II-Classic-Reprint-Charles-L-Dodgson/book/32319980?matches=5
> >>
> >> Few authors can make that claim.
> >>
> >> Back to your recent comments, the Romans of the Republic and
> >> Empire were master engineers with large numbers of men
> >> educated in Euclid and other works.
> > When was the last time you used Geometry?
> >
> About 11:00 am today.
>
> Diameter * 3.14159 gives you circumference so along with
> 600sfm (turning cutting speed for aluminum) you get correct
> machine RPM setting. Which is a lot faster than the same
> operation in steel.
>
> Where I do not use classic geometry is frame repair.

If you want to define 2D geometry as geometry when they teach it in 4th grade, have at it.

On Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:22:17 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
>>>
>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
>>>
>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
>>
>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
>>
>
>Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>plays etc.
>
>Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.

Are you sure about that? I read that Latin was the language of Rome
from the earliest period. As early as the first Roman emperor
Augustus, Virgil emphasizes that Latin was a source of Roman unity and
tradition.

But having said that it is true that Koine Greek had become the common
language of the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor after the
conquests of Alexander the Great.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/4/2023 5:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/4/2023 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>
>> When was the last time you used Geometry?
>>
>
> About 11:00 am today.
>
> Diameter * 3.14159 gives you circumference so along with 600sfm (turning
> cutting speed for aluminum) you get correct machine RPM setting. Which
> is a lot faster than the same operation in steel.
>
> Where I do not use classic geometry is frame repair.

When I worked as an engineer, I was mildly surprised at how often I did
use fairly simple geometry. I later remarked about that to my students.
And geometry gets used when calculating forces and thus stresses on
machine parts. Forces are vectors, after all.

Then there's "Descriptive Geometry," which among other things uses
multiple projected views to work out patterns for parts, calculate
clearances, etc. I used that in some optics work.

Tom is so devoted to his ignorance.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/4/2023 4:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 2:04:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/4/2023 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:54:54 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/4/2023 2:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:04:56 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/4/2023 1:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 11:22:23 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
>>>>>>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
>>>>>>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
>>>>>>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>>>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>>>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>>>>>>> plays etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Common use of writing didn't really immerge until after 300 AD and for a long time it was all handled by scribes and not common people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2019/2019.04.45#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20the%20articles%20are%20concerned%20with,expanse%2C%20and%20over%20a%20timespan%20of%20many%20centuries.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Rufino’s subject is bronze tablets, mostly fragments of legal inscriptions. They are remnants of laws displayed in public; a fact that does not necessarily imply that people were able to read them. Their function was ideological rather than functional: their presence was a grandiloquent reminder of the ubiquity of Roman power."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who's Cicero? Chopped liver?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have read voluminously from before and through The
>>>>>> Republic into the pre Christian empire (In translation
>>>>>> mostly, my Latin's halting and I can't manage more than a
>>>>>> few words in Greek).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gaius Iulio himself, Cicero, Seutonius, Tacitus, Juvenal,
>>>>>> Titus Livius, Josephus, Polybios, Herodotus, Plato... all
>>>>>> before 300AD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey I bet even you read Euclid in the 7th grade!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> pfffft.
>>>>>
>>>>> None of the classes I took in school moved into geometry which would have been college path. But I did study Geometry and Trigonometry on my own because it had practical value all the way from land to electronics though at the time it was all tube electronics and you have to be able to use geometry to measure the delay time from signal to response. Seems to me that the book was by someone named Weil. Me and the local electronics nut had a joke about "Get Weil Cards"
>>>>>
>>>> Well, he's been well read for 2300 years and still in print!
>>>>
>>>> https://www.alibris.com/Euclid-Books-I-II-Classic-Reprint-Charles-L-Dodgson/book/32319980?matches=5
>>>>
>>>> Few authors can make that claim.
>>>>
>>>> Back to your recent comments, the Romans of the Republic and
>>>> Empire were master engineers with large numbers of men
>>>> educated in Euclid and other works.
>>> When was the last time you used Geometry?
>>>
>> About 11:00 am today.
>>
>> Diameter * 3.14159 gives you circumference so along with
>> 600sfm (turning cutting speed for aluminum) you get correct
>> machine RPM setting. Which is a lot faster than the same
>> operation in steel.
>>
>> Where I do not use classic geometry is frame repair.
>
> If you want to define 2D geometry as geometry when they teach it in 4th grade, have at it.
>

Hey you asked.

Prefer something more complex? How about wheelbuilding?
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPOKFORM.JPG
solve for hypotenuse in two planes.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/4/2023 5:38 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:22:17 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
>>>>
>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
>>>
>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
>>>
>>
>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>> plays etc.
>>
>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
>
>
> Are you sure about that? I read that Latin was the language of Rome
> from the earliest period. As early as the first Roman emperor
> Augustus, Virgil emphasizes that Latin was a source of Roman unity and
> tradition.
>
> But having said that it is true that Koine Greek had become the common
> language of the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor after the
> conquests of Alexander the Great.

I'm sure that then, as even now, there were many languages and countless
dialects in use. Anywhere that people have restrictions in travel (i.e.
almost everywhere in Jesus's time) people develop different languages.

Consider pre-Columbian North America, or New Guinea even in the early
20th century. A person wouldn't have to travel more than a hundred
miles, and sometimes much less, to find a wildly different language in use.

The Levant might have been somewhat different because geographically, it
was a major trade crossroads, and the imposition of Roman rule might
have had a stabilizing effect, as would any writing system. But
certainly, people in small fishing villages didn't immediately learn
Latin. They spoke their ancestors' languages. That's my guess anyway.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/4/2023 4:38 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:22:17 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
>>>>
>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
>>>
>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
>>>
>>
>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>> plays etc.
>>
>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
>
>
> Are you sure about that? I read that Latin was the language of Rome
> from the earliest period. As early as the first Roman emperor
> Augustus, Virgil emphasizes that Latin was a source of Roman unity and
> tradition.
>
> But having said that it is true that Koine Greek had become the common
> language of the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor after the
> conquests of Alexander the Great.
>

A web search finds much academic discussion, mostly
centering on implied literacy rates for late Republic and
early Empire, but no pithy conclusions. Literate people
were a distinct minority but certainly writers of the period
refer to texts in both languages regularly. The very rich
and powerful were mostly bilingual in Latin and Greek.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 04 Jan 2023 17:19:12 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/4/2023 4:38 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:22:17 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
>>>>>
>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
>>>>
>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>> plays etc.
>>>
>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
>>
>>
>> Are you sure about that? I read that Latin was the language of Rome
>> from the earliest period. As early as the first Roman emperor
>> Augustus, Virgil emphasizes that Latin was a source of Roman unity and
>> tradition.
>>
>> But having said that it is true that Koine Greek had become the common
>> language of the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor after the
>> conquests of Alexander the Great.
>>
>
>A web search finds much academic discussion, mostly
>centering on implied literacy rates for late Republic and
>early Empire, but no pithy conclusions. Literate people
>were a distinct minority but certainly writers of the period
>refer to texts in both languages regularly. The very rich
>and powerful were mostly bilingual in Latin and Greek.

It is said that Cleopatra and Caesar communicated in Greek, the only
language that they had in common. :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:35:42 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 2:04:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/4/2023 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:54:54 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 1/4/2023 2:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:04:56 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>> On 1/4/2023 1:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 11:22:23 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
>> >>>>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
>> >>>>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >>>>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
>> >>>>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>> >>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>> >>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>> >>>>>> plays etc.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Common use of writing didn't really immerge until after 300 AD and for a long time it was all handled by scribes and not common people.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2019/2019.04.45#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20the%20articles%20are%20concerned%20with,expanse%2C%20and%20over%20a%20timespan%20of%20many%20centuries.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "Rufino’s subject is bronze tablets, mostly fragments of legal inscriptions. They are remnants of laws displayed in public; a fact that does not necessarily imply that people were able to read them. Their function was ideological rather than functional: their presence was a grandiloquent reminder of the ubiquity of Roman power."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Who's Cicero? Chopped liver?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have read voluminously from before and through The
>> >>>> Republic into the pre Christian empire (In translation
>> >>>> mostly, my Latin's halting and I can't manage more than a
>> >>>> few words in Greek).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Gaius Iulio himself, Cicero, Seutonius, Tacitus, Juvenal,
>> >>>> Titus Livius, Josephus, Polybios, Herodotus, Plato... all
>> >>>> before 300AD.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hey I bet even you read Euclid in the 7th grade!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> pfffft.
>> >>>
>> >>> None of the classes I took in school moved into geometry which would have been college path. But I did study Geometry and Trigonometry on my own because it had practical value all the way from land to electronics though at the time it was all tube electronics and you have to be able to use geometry to measure the delay time from signal to response. Seems to me that the book was by someone named Weil. Me and the local electronics nut had a joke about "Get Weil Cards"
>> >>>
>> >> Well, he's been well read for 2300 years and still in print!
>> >>
>> >> https://www.alibris.com/Euclid-Books-I-II-Classic-Reprint-Charles-L-Dodgson/book/32319980?matches=5
>> >>
>> >> Few authors can make that claim.
>> >>
>> >> Back to your recent comments, the Romans of the Republic and
>> >> Empire were master engineers with large numbers of men
>> >> educated in Euclid and other works.
>> > When was the last time you used Geometry?
>> >
>> About 11:00 am today.
>>
>> Diameter * 3.14159 gives you circumference so along with
>> 600sfm (turning cutting speed for aluminum) you get correct
>> machine RPM setting. Which is a lot faster than the same
>> operation in steel.
>>
>> Where I do not use classic geometry is frame repair.
>
>If you want to define 2D geometry as geometry when they teach it in 4th grade, have at it.

a little evidence please... that geometry is taught in the 4th grade
as I read that it is taught in U.S. high schools, 10th grade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_education_in_the_United_States

Or are you just dreaming again? Or lying again? Or just stupid?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:45:54 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >If you want to define 2D geometry as geometry when they teach it in 4th grade, have at it.
> a little evidence please... that geometry is taught in the 4th grade
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

I don't remember what I had for breakfast nor am I sure what day it is, but I have clear memories of my 4th grade classroom and my teacher Miss Daib roughly 6 decades ago.
We learned the times table. Over and over. No geometry.
And I was in trouble because I transferred from a school system that taught cursive in 4th grade, but the new school had taught it in 3rd grade, and I couldn't do it. So I always got bad grades for penmanship.

To veer sharply -skew flip warning- to on topic. I think Tom's point is that the Bible is reliable precisely because we don't have any originals to translate, because oral tradition is inerrant. I don't fully understand this argument, there is either a missing step in logic or I'm just not smart enough today.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:34:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
> >>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
> >>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
> >>> plays etc.
> >>>
> John B.

That was still true in the early days of the US. The founding fathers studied Greek as part of their education, and Madison in particular researched deeply into Greek history in trying to understand how to make a democracy work from the people who invented it. I recommend First Principles by Thomas Ricks for more of the story.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 18:19:28 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:34:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>> >>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>> >>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>> >>> plays etc.
>> >>>
>> John B.
>
>That was still true in the early days of the US. The founding fathers studied Greek as part of their education, and Madison in particular researched deeply into Greek history in trying to understand how to make a democracy work from the people who invented it. I recommend First Principles by Thomas Ricks for more of the story.

Well Athenians had a good system. Adult men who had completed their
military training and had paid their taxes voted and slaves, women and
foreigners, didn't.

As a note, apparently this sort of government wasn't limited to
Athens, and was likely used by other "states" but only Athens left
sufficient records to record it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 18:19:28 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:34:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>> >>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>> >>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>> >>> plays etc.
>> >>>
>> John B.
>
>That was still true in the early days of the US. The founding fathers studied Greek as part of their education, and Madison in particular researched deeply into Greek history in trying to understand how to make a democracy work from the people who invented it. I recommend First Principles by Thomas Ricks for more of the story.

But the early U.S. government was conceived as a union of states with
each state essentially governing themselves. The bill of Rights was
largely part of the controversy between the Federalists who wanted a
strong central government and the Anti-Federalists that argued for
states rights and specific limits on the central government's power.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 9:13:28 PM UTC-5, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:45:54 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > >If you want to define 2D geometry as geometry when they teach it in 4th grade, have at it.
> > a little evidence please... that geometry is taught in the 4th grade
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
>
> I don't remember what I had for breakfast nor am I sure what day it is, but I have clear memories of my 4th grade classroom and my teacher Miss Daib roughly 6 decades ago.
> We learned the times table. Over and over. No geometry.
> And I was in trouble because I transferred from a school system that taught cursive in 4th grade, but the new school had taught it in 3rd grade, and I couldn't do it. So I always got bad grades for penmanship.
>
> To veer sharply -skew flip warning- to on topic. I think Tom's point is that the Bible is reliable precisely because we don't have any originals to translate, because oral tradition is inerrant. I don't fully understand this argument, there is either a missing step in logic or I'm just not smart enough today.

Trust us on this Tim - it isn't you.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:45:54 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:35:42 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 2:04:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/4/2023 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:54:54 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> On 1/4/2023 2:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 12:04:56 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>> On 1/4/2023 1:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 11:22:23 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
> >> >>>>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
> >> >>>>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
> >> >>>>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
> >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> John B.
> >> >>>>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
> >> >>>>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
> >> >>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
> >> >>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
> >> >>>>>> plays etc.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Common use of writing didn't really immerge until after 300 AD and for a long time it was all handled by scribes and not common people.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2019/2019.04.45#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20the%20articles%20are%20concerned%20with,expanse%2C%20and%20over%20a%20timespan%20of%20many%20centuries.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> "Rufino’s subject is bronze tablets, mostly fragments of legal inscriptions. They are remnants of laws displayed in public; a fact that does not necessarily imply that people were able to read them. Their function was ideological rather than functional: their presence was a grandiloquent reminder of the ubiquity of Roman power."
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Who's Cicero? Chopped liver?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I have read voluminously from before and through The
> >> >>>> Republic into the pre Christian empire (In translation
> >> >>>> mostly, my Latin's halting and I can't manage more than a
> >> >>>> few words in Greek).
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Gaius Iulio himself, Cicero, Seutonius, Tacitus, Juvenal,
> >> >>>> Titus Livius, Josephus, Polybios, Herodotus, Plato... all
> >> >>>> before 300AD.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Hey I bet even you read Euclid in the 7th grade!
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> pfffft.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> None of the classes I took in school moved into geometry which would have been college path. But I did study Geometry and Trigonometry on my own because it had practical value all the way from land to electronics though at the time it was all tube electronics and you have to be able to use geometry to measure the delay time from signal to response. Seems to me that the book was by someone named Weil. Me and the local electronics nut had a joke about "Get Weil Cards"
> >> >>>
> >> >> Well, he's been well read for 2300 years and still in print!
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.alibris.com/Euclid-Books-I-II-Classic-Reprint-Charles-L-Dodgson/book/32319980?matches=5
> >> >>
> >> >> Few authors can make that claim.
> >> >>
> >> >> Back to your recent comments, the Romans of the Republic and
> >> >> Empire were master engineers with large numbers of men
> >> >> educated in Euclid and other works.
> >> > When was the last time you used Geometry?
> >> >
> >> About 11:00 am today.
> >>
> >> Diameter * 3.14159 gives you circumference so along with
> >> 600sfm (turning cutting speed for aluminum) you get correct
> >> machine RPM setting. Which is a lot faster than the same
> >> operation in steel.
> >>
> >> Where I do not use classic geometry is frame repair.
> >
> >If you want to define 2D geometry as geometry when they teach it in 4th grade, have at it.
> a little evidence please... that geometry is taught in the 4th grade
> as I read that it is taught in U.S. high schools, 10th grade.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_education_in_the_United_States
>

lol...in tommyworld Plane Geometry isn't _real_ geometry....yup - Trigonometric functions? nah, Calculating sines, cosines, and tangents aren't _real_ geometry.

I'm guessing tommy was relating his personal 4th grade experience with 'geometric shapes'. While most of us had moved on to multiplication tables, tommy was struggling with https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GG19DZZ?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_P2JSK94KTXHJ3Q3V0K02....

On 1/4/2023 9:38 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 18:19:28 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:34:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>>>>> plays etc.
>>>>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> That was still true in the early days of the US. The founding fathers studied Greek as part of their education, and Madison in particular researched deeply into Greek history in trying to understand how to make a democracy work from the people who invented it. I recommend First Principles by Thomas Ricks for more of the story.
>
> Well Athenians had a good system. Adult men who had completed their
> military training and had paid their taxes voted and slaves, women and
> foreigners, didn't.
>
> As a note, apparently this sort of government wasn't limited to
> Athens, and was likely used by other "states" but only Athens left
> sufficient records to record it.
>

+1
Good system.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/4/2023 9:50 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 18:19:28 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:34:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>>>>> plays etc.
>>>>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> That was still true in the early days of the US. The founding fathers studied Greek as part of their education, and Madison in particular researched deeply into Greek history in trying to understand how to make a democracy work from the people who invented it. I recommend First Principles by Thomas Ricks for more of the story.
>
>
> But the early U.S. government was conceived as a union of states with
> each state essentially governing themselves. The bill of Rights was
> largely part of the controversy between the Federalists who wanted a
> strong central government and the Anti-Federalists that argued for
> states rights and specific limits on the central government's power.
>

And rightly so. States are sovereign, which has kept us
from the worst of centralized government (barely) so far...

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 3:19:18 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/4/2023 4:38 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:22:17 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
> >>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
> >>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
> >>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John B.
> >>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
> >>>>
> >>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
> >>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
> >>>>
> >>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
> >>>
> >>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors.. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
> >> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
> >> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
> >> plays etc.
> >>
> >> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
> >
> >
> > Are you sure about that? I read that Latin was the language of Rome
> > from the earliest period. As early as the first Roman emperor
> > Augustus, Virgil emphasizes that Latin was a source of Roman unity and
> > tradition.
> >
> > But having said that it is true that Koine Greek had become the common
> > language of the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor after the
> > conquests of Alexander the Great.
> >
> A web search finds much academic discussion, mostly
> centering on implied literacy rates for late Republic and
> early Empire, but no pithy conclusions. Literate people
> were a distinct minority but certainly writers of the period
> refer to texts in both languages regularly. The very rich
> and powerful were mostly bilingual in Latin and Greek.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Pardon me Andrew, while indeed the rich and powerful were often literate, do you not understand that the percentage of the population was thousands to one? You need only look at the Colosseum which was built by the rich for the entertainment of the poor. Look at 18th century England! Exactly why do you think the US exists at all? What was the cause of the Irish Republican Army? Why did Gandi remove India from British rule?

While I'm sure that you can easily find references about literacy, you are looking at it entirely wrong. Russia became a country devoted to ;literacy not just in Russian but in Latin as well, but even today in a country of equals there is a half percent illiteracy.

On 1/5/2023 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 3:19:18 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/4/2023 4:38 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:22:17 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
>>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
>>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
>>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
>>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>>> plays etc.
>>>>
>>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
>>>
>>>
>>> Are you sure about that? I read that Latin was the language of Rome
>>> from the earliest period. As early as the first Roman emperor
>>> Augustus, Virgil emphasizes that Latin was a source of Roman unity and
>>> tradition.
>>>
>>> But having said that it is true that Koine Greek had become the common
>>> language of the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor after the
>>> conquests of Alexander the Great.
>>>
>> A web search finds much academic discussion, mostly
>> centering on implied literacy rates for late Republic and
>> early Empire, but no pithy conclusions. Literate people
>> were a distinct minority but certainly writers of the period
>> refer to texts in both languages regularly. The very rich
>> and powerful were mostly bilingual in Latin and Greek.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Pardon me Andrew, while indeed the rich and powerful were often literate, do you not understand that the percentage of the population was thousands to one? You need only look at the Colosseum which was built by the rich for the entertainment of the poor. Look at 18th century England! Exactly why do you think the US exists at all? What was the cause of the Irish Republican Army? Why did Gandi remove India from British rule?
>
> While I'm sure that you can easily find references about literacy, you are looking at it entirely wrong. Russia became a country devoted to ;literacy not just in Russian but in Latin as well, but even today in a country of equals there is a half percent illiteracy.
>

I was unaware of that. Remarkable! Only 0.5% illiteracy!

I assume their success is due to spending a lot less on The
Education Racket:
https://wirepoints.org/how-can-84-of-chicago-public-schools-students-graduate-when-only-26-of-11th-graders-are-proficient-in-reading-math-wirepoints-quickpoint/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 9:03:02 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/5/2023 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 3:19:18 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/4/2023 4:38 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:22:17 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 1/4/2023 11:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 5:02:28 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:01:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> I read that the earliest copy of the Ten commandments, dated in the 30
> >>>>>>> BC - 1 BC era, can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library.
> >>>>>>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/view-a-2000-year-old-scroll-of-the-ten-commandments-online/
> >>>>>>> Said to be written in Hebrew.
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>> Very interesting site, thanks. I'm going to quote a paragraph from the researchers to show some of the difficulties in looking for clues to the "originals."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Quote starts********Deuteronomy is one of the books most represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the answer to your question is a bit complicated for segments from all the chapters 1-34 were found but in 30 different manuscripts and in hundreds of fragments.
> >>>>>> No one manuscript has the entire text in it and most chapters are missing verses. Scholars think that perhaps some of the fragments were originally part of complete manuscripts.*********quote ends.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My understanding is that in early Christian communities most people were not literate, but gospels and Pauline letters were not oral tradition but were read out loud to the group by a leader who could read.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How do you believe that they read the gospels before they were translated into a language that could be understood? Greek was dead before the early Christians were practicing Christianity. Oral traditions have been shown everywhere in the world and passed text down word for word without errors. Most of the Talmud was passed on via oral tradition and early Jewish writing was so varied that it would only be read by the authors themselves.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
> >>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
> >>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
> >>>> plays etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Aramaic was the local tongue at the time in the Levant.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Are you sure about that? I read that Latin was the language of Rome
> >>> from the earliest period. As early as the first Roman emperor
> >>> Augustus, Virgil emphasizes that Latin was a source of Roman unity and
> >>> tradition.
> >>>
> >>> But having said that it is true that Koine Greek had become the common
> >>> language of the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor after the
> >>> conquests of Alexander the Great.
> >>>
> >> A web search finds much academic discussion, mostly
> >> centering on implied literacy rates for late Republic and
> >> early Empire, but no pithy conclusions. Literate people
> >> were a distinct minority but certainly writers of the period
> >> refer to texts in both languages regularly. The very rich
> >> and powerful were mostly bilingual in Latin and Greek.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > Pardon me Andrew, while indeed the rich and powerful were often literate, do you not understand that the percentage of the population was thousands to one? You need only look at the Colosseum which was built by the rich for the entertainment of the poor. Look at 18th century England! Exactly why do you think the US exists at all? What was the cause of the Irish Republican Army? Why did Gandi remove India from British rule?
> >
> > While I'm sure that you can easily find references about literacy, you are looking at it entirely wrong. Russia became a country devoted to ;literacy not just in Russian but in Latin as well, but even today in a country of equals there is a half percent illiteracy.
> >
> I was unaware of that. Remarkable! Only 0.5% illiteracy!
>
> I assume their success is due to spending a lot less on The
> Education Racket:
> https://wirepoints.org/how-can-84-of-chicago-public-schools-students-graduate-when-only-26-of-11th-graders-are-proficient-in-reading-math-wirepoints-quickpoint/

I don't know about now but when I was a kid, Russia only gave 7 years of public schooling, so they had to concentrate on actual education and not propagandizing children. The lies about Russia were so exaggerated that we actually faced nuclear war (and now again probably do). They've never been able to get communism to work but that is their business beyond Stalin's murder of half of his citizenry.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2023 08:12:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/4/2023 9:38 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 18:19:28 -0800 (PST), Tim R
>> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:34:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>>>>>> plays etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> That was still true in the early days of the US. The founding fathers studied Greek as part of their education, and Madison in particular researched deeply into Greek history in trying to understand how to make a democracy work from the people who invented it. I recommend First Principles by Thomas Ricks for more of the story.
>>
>> Well Athenians had a good system. Adult men who had completed their
>> military training and had paid their taxes voted and slaves, women and
>> foreigners, didn't.
>>
>> As a note, apparently this sort of government wasn't limited to
>> Athens, and was likely used by other "states" but only Athens left
>> sufficient records to record it.
>>
>
>+1
>Good system.

I think that the original qualifications for voters in the new U.S.
were somewhat similar.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/5/2023 5:10 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jan 2023 08:12:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/4/2023 9:38 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 18:19:28 -0800 (PST), Tim R
>>> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:34:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>>>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>>>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>>>>>>> plays etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> That was still true in the early days of the US. The founding fathers studied Greek as part of their education, and Madison in particular researched deeply into Greek history in trying to understand how to make a democracy work from the people who invented it. I recommend First Principles by Thomas Ricks for more of the story.
>>>
>>> Well Athenians had a good system. Adult men who had completed their
>>> military training and had paid their taxes voted and slaves, women and
>>> foreigners, didn't.
>>>
>>> As a note, apparently this sort of government wasn't limited to
>>> Athens, and was likely used by other "states" but only Athens left
>>> sufficient records to record it.
>>>
>>
>> +1
>> Good system.
>
> I think that the original qualifications for voters in the new U.S.
> were somewhat similar.
>

In many places at our founding, one had to own real
property, i.e., 'have skin in the game' to vote. Another
good system.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 05 Jan 2023 17:42:23 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/5/2023 5:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 05 Jan 2023 08:12:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/4/2023 9:38 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 18:19:28 -0800 (PST), Tim R
>>>> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 7:34:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Literate Romans and educated people throughout the Empire
>>>>>>>>> commonly read, conversed and wrote in Greek. Latin was used
>>>>>>>>> in official proceedings and also in popular literature,
>>>>>>>>> plays etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> That was still true in the early days of the US. The founding fathers studied Greek as part of their education, and Madison in particular researched deeply into Greek history in trying to understand how to make a democracy work from the people who invented it. I recommend First Principles by Thomas Ricks for more of the story.
>>>>
>>>> Well Athenians had a good system. Adult men who had completed their
>>>> military training and had paid their taxes voted and slaves, women and
>>>> foreigners, didn't.
>>>>
>>>> As a note, apparently this sort of government wasn't limited to
>>>> Athens, and was likely used by other "states" but only Athens left
>>>> sufficient records to record it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>> Good system.
>>
>> I think that the original qualifications for voters in the new U.S.
>> were somewhat similar.
>>
>
>In many places at our founding, one had to own real
>property, i.e., 'have skin in the game' to vote. Another
>good system.

Somewhere I read a quotation from someone, it might have been Winston
Churchill, that people on the dole shouldn't be allowed to vote as
they would just vote for more dole :-)

Or perhaps a known Churchill quote that "The best argument against
democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" :-)

Something we see here. :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.