erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals when they grow old.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He, who didn't manage to understand the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, what can you do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My advice to you, *never* inject anything into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
>>>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that's your theory.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
>>>>>>>>>> different justification from your previous one. Do you object to
>>>>>>>>>> dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one
>>>>>>>>>> for polio?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body.
>>>>>>>>> This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
>>>>>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>>>>> I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
>>>>>>>>> other than that, no.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty
>>>>>>>> nail or a toothpick?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because this was how we always did this.
>>>>>>> You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
>>>>>>> are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
>>>>>>> isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is,
>>>>>>> well, too bad for you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
>>>>>> refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
>>>>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
>>>>>> refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
>>>>>> that direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
>>>>>> antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
>>>>>> They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly
>>>>>> the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your
>>>>>> immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
>>>>> include sterile equipment.
>>>>> So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
>>>>> sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To
>>>>> do the second, you just...
>>>>> In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
>>>>> efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
>>>>> leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
>>>>> equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
>>>>> way, I have to be efficient to survive.
>>>>> The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
>>>>> India. Why?
>>>>> And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
>>>>> Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
>>>>> like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
>>>>> train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
>>>>> enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
>>>>> I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
>>>>> Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
>>>>> bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
>>>>> They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
>>>>> survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
>>>>> vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the
>>>>> reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven,
>>>>> it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old.
>>>>> This isn't a game.
>>>>
>>>> I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the
>>>> system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us
>>>> died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and
>>>> strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7
>>>> times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we
>>>> stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care
>>>> system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
>>>> around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
>>>> we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
>>>> dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
>>>> don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
>>>> What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
>>>> can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
>>>> Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
>>>> evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on
>>>> your mouth?
>>>
>>> So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment.
>>> And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
>>> way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure,
>>> *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will*
>>> survive, for sure.
>>> So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile
>>> equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what
>>> this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
>>> he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if
>>> it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots.
>>>
>> To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
>> apologize for poking him. I will stop now.
>
> No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
> troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be
> that stupid and still
> be alive.
>
Maybe just really lucky.

On 3.9.2021. 0:47, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they grow old.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>          Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>          My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
>>>>>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you
>>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to
>>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for
>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>          Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that
>>>>>>>>> is dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>          Well, that's your theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
>>>>>
>>>>>          No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.
>>>>>          I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
>>>>> other than that, no.
>>>>>
>>>> Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail
>>>> or a toothpick?
>>>
>>>         Because this was how we always did this.
>>>         You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are
>>> unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
>>> sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well, too
>>> bad for you.
>>>
>> That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
>> refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
>> from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that direction.
>>
>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or
>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>>
> A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire need of
> medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
> transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no,
> instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”.
> Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.

Peter, you are overrating those guys, they are stupid, not worth your
time.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On 9/1/21 8:47 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they grow old.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          He, who didn't manage to understand the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>          Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>          My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
>>>>>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you
>>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to
>>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for
>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>          Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
>>>>>>>>> that is dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>          Well, that's your theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
>>>>>
>>>>>          No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>          I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
>>>>> other than that, no.
>>>>>
>>>> Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty
>>>> nail or a toothpick?
>>>
>>>          Because this was how we always did this.
>>>          You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
>>> are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
>>> sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well,
>>> too bad for you.
>>>
>> That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
>> refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
>> refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that
>> direction.
>>
>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
>> antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
>> They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the
>> same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your
>> immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>
>         The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't include
> sterile equipment.
>         So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
> sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To do
> the second, you just...
>         In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
> efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
> leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
> equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second way,
> I have to be efficient to survive.
>         The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
> India. Why?

The bubonic plague did hit India.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"Omnia disce. Videbis postea nihil esse superfluum."
- Hugh of St. Victor

On 9/2/2021 6:47 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they grow old.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>          Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>          My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
>>>>>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you
>>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to
>>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for
>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>          Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that
>>>>>>>>> is dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>          Well, that's your theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
>>>>>
>>>>>          No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.
>>>>>          I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
>>>>> other than that, no.
>>>>>
>>>> Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail
>>>> or a toothpick?
>>>
>>>         Because this was how we always did this.
>>>         You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are
>>> unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
>>> sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well, too
>>> bad for you.
>>>
>> That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
>> refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
>> from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that direction.
>>
>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or
>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>>
> A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire need of
> medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
> transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no,
> instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”.
> Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.
>

Careful now, Mario is the server's esteemed resident polymath numero
duo, after the all-knowing mathematician himself. Insults to such an
accomplished figure are severely unwarranted.

On 9/2/2021 11:30 AM, erik simpson wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals when they grow old.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He, who didn't manage to understand the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, what can you do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My advice to you, *never* inject anything into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
>>>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that's your theory.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
>>>>>>>>>> different justification from your previous one. Do you object to
>>>>>>>>>> dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one
>>>>>>>>>> for polio?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body.
>>>>>>>>> This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
>>>>>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>>>>> I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
>>>>>>>>> other than that, no.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty
>>>>>>>> nail or a toothpick?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because this was how we always did this.
>>>>>>> You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
>>>>>>> are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
>>>>>>> isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is,
>>>>>>> well, too bad for you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
>>>>>> refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
>>>>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
>>>>>> refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
>>>>>> that direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
>>>>>> antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
>>>>>> They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly
>>>>>> the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your
>>>>>> immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
>>>>> include sterile equipment.
>>>>> So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
>>>>> sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To
>>>>> do the second, you just...
>>>>> In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
>>>>> efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
>>>>> leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
>>>>> equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
>>>>> way, I have to be efficient to survive.
>>>>> The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
>>>>> India. Why?
>>>>> And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
>>>>> Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
>>>>> like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
>>>>> train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
>>>>> enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
>>>>> I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
>>>>> Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
>>>>> bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
>>>>> They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
>>>>> survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
>>>>> vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the
>>>>> reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven,
>>>>> it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old.
>>>>> This isn't a game.
>>>>
>>>> I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the
>>>> system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us
>>>> died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and
>>>> strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7
>>>> times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we
>>>> stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care
>>>> system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
>>>> around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
>>>> we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
>>>> dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
>>>> don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
>>>> What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
>>>> can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
>>>> Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
>>>> evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on
>>>> your mouth?
>>>
>>> So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment.
>>> And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
>>> way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure,
>>> *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will*
>>> survive, for sure.
>>> So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile
>>> equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what
>>> this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
>>> he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if
>>> it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots.
>>>
>> To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
>> apologize for poking him. I will stop now.
>
> No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
> troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be that stupid and still
> be alive.
>

On 5.9.2021. 14:49, Oxyaena wrote:
> On 9/2/2021 6:47 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>> John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they grow old.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Ah, what can you do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>           My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
>>>>>>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you
>>>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for
>>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>           Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that
>>>>>>>>>> is dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
>>>>>>>>> magnetic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>           Well, that's your theory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
>>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>>           I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
>>>>>> other than that, no.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail
>>>>> or a toothpick?
>>>>
>>>>          Because this was how we always did this.
>>>>          You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are
>>>> unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
>>>> sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well, too
>>>> bad for you.
>>>>
>>> That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
>>> refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
>>> from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that direction.
>>>
>>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
>>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
>>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
>>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or
>>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>>>
>> A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire
>> need of
>> medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
>> transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no,
>> instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”.
>> Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.
>>
>
> Careful now, Mario is the server's esteemed resident polymath numero
> duo, after the all-knowing mathematician himself. Insults to such an
> accomplished figure are severely unwarranted.

Careful with that vaccination, Eugene.
https://youtu.be/YtZqNAI4pBk

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On 9/5/21 2:30 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 5.9.2021. 14:49, Oxyaena wrote:
>> On 9/2/2021 6:47 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>>> John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they grow old.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Grow less and less old, with every new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           He, who didn't manage to understand the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Ah, what can you do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>           My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for
>>>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>           Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> is dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>           Well, that's your theory.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>           No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
>>>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>>>           I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
>>>>>>> other than that, no.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail
>>>>>> or a toothpick?
>>>>>
>>>>>          Because this was how we always did this.
>>>>>          You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are
>>>>> unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
>>>>> sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well,
>>>>> too
>>>>> bad for you.
>>>>>
>>>> That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
>>>> refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
>>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
>>>> from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that
>>>> direction.
>>>>
>>>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
>>>> antigens
>>>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
>>>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
>>>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune
>>>> system or
>>>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>>>>
>>> A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire
>>> need of
>>> medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
>>> transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no,
>>> instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”.
>>> Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.
>>>
>>
>> Careful now, Mario is the server's esteemed resident polymath numero
>> duo, after the all-knowing mathematician himself. Insults to such an
>> accomplished figure are severely unwarranted.
>
>         Careful with that vaccination, Eugene.
> https://youtu.be/YtZqNAI4pBk
>
Should have said "Careful with that vax", but kudos for the Pink Floyd
reference.

On 5.9.2021. 23:51, John Harshman wrote:
> On 9/5/21 2:30 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 5.9.2021. 14:49, Oxyaena wrote:
>>> On 9/2/2021 6:47 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>>>> John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they grow old.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Grow less and less old, with every new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           He, who didn't manage to understand the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Ah, what can you do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>           Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> is dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
>>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>           Well, that's your theory.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for
>>>>>>>>> polio?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>           No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
>>>>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>>>>           I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
>>>>>>>> other than that, no.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty
>>>>>>> nail
>>>>>>> or a toothpick?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Because this was how we always did this.
>>>>>>          You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
>>>>>> sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is,
>>>>>> well, too
>>>>>> bad for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
>>>>> refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
>>>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
>>>>> refrain
>>>>> from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that
>>>>> direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
>>>>> antigens
>>>>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
>>>>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
>>>>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune
>>>>> system or
>>>>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>>>>>
>>>> A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire
>>>> need of
>>>> medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
>>>> transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no,
>>>> instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”.
>>>> Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Careful now, Mario is the server's esteemed resident polymath numero
>>> duo, after the all-knowing mathematician himself. Insults to such an
>>> accomplished figure are severely unwarranted.
>>
>>          Careful with that vaccination, Eugene.
>> https://youtu.be/YtZqNAI4pBk
>>
> Should have said "Careful with that vax", but kudos for the Pink Floyd
> reference.

Ah, thanks.
I'm always glad to learn more English.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
> On 9/2/2021 11:30 AM, erik simpson wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:

I've snipped a bunch of things that I will have to reprimand Mario about,
but first, I need to defend my reputation, because no one -- not even Mario --
will do it for me, whereas there are several who are still willing to defend the
reputation of Oxyaena/Thrinaxodon.

> >> To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
> >> apologize for poking him. I will stop now.
> >
> > No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
> > troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be that stupid and still
> > be alive.

> I don't know,

Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena knows, but finds it much more rewarding to be loved
by people named below for pretending otherwise:

> one look at Peter proves that one can *indeed* be that
> stupid and somehow end up a tenured professor.

Of course, Oxyaena/Thrinaxodon knows better than to tell anyone
what, if anything, "that stupid" refers to: it would ruin the whole effect.

One look at the posting history of Thrinaxodon, having tried for six years to reinvent herself as Oxyaena,
shows how a dog returns to his/her vomit at last.

And Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena can do it as long as 'e wants, because Harshman, Simpson, Hemidactylus,
Mark Issaak, jillery, and others who show up too infrequently on sci.bio.paleontology to be worth
mentioning, can be counted on to play "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" about that vomit.

The most you will ever see is the way Harshman played "good cop" to "bad cop" Oxyaena,
when the latter puked all over me for not knowing about a Mesozoic gliding mammal,
saying that one shouldn't be so nasty right off the bat to "even someone like Peter."

Harshman exited the thread when Oxyaena proved to be too hatefully incorrigible,
and so he missed how I later discovered the thread and admitted to my carelessness
in not having specified "Cenozoic gliding mammal".

To my mind it was clear from the way bat ancestry was the theme, and no gliding mammals
have been found among fossils within the whole of Eutheria, let alone the crown group Placentalia,
before modern bats are found in the fossil record.

Eutheria split off from Metatheria (marsupials and kin) well back in the Cretaceous, so "Cenozoic"
was understating the case, but there was no need for overkill.

I wonder whether this incident was what Oxyaena had in mind when writing "that stupid." The way
'e kept referring to me as "Professor Asshat" on that thread, it is certainly possible.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On 9/6/21 5:18 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
>> On 9/2/2021 11:30 AM, erik simpson wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
>
> I've snipped a bunch of things that I will have to reprimand Mario about,

You really should get on with that.

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
> > On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
> >>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:

> >>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
> >>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
> >>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
> >>>>
> >>>> No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
> >>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
> >>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.

Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.

<snip for focus>

> > I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
> > into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
> > weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
> > those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or
> > encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
lost sight of his main point.

<snip for focus>

> And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
> introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
> things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.

WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
train him to counteract.

> Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
> live opponent.

You have completely missed the point.

Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly risky
to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your vaccine "sparring partner"
knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.

Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is more likely
to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2 viruses
that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?

This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse effects; one
secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm would
fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and the second dose
wasn't nearly as bad.

It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to figure out
how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you might get a bloody nose
by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.

And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

> I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is
> in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
> the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.

You are on the right track, but you aren't connecting the dots sufficiently.
A vaccine is not at all like a boxing bag. I hope I've made that clear.

And please take the following to heart. Without prior exposure to the coronavirus,
you are unlikely to have any antibodies that protect you from it, and your immune
system has no memory that a prior exposure gives of what kinds of antibodies
to crank out.

And so, it has to figure out by trial and error when the virus invades. And while
it is figuring it out, the virus multiplies fast enough to be in a good position
to overwhelm your system before enough antibodies can be produced.

> They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.

> I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.

Yes, "They say" just doesn't cut it.

> Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven, it doesn't happen.

Do NOT confuse Harshman, the only one here with a degree in biology [although
I suspect Pandora has one and is a far better scientist than Harshman] with
a scientist who hasn't forgotten how to teach adults.

Harshman has been spoiled rotten by the other people I've named up there,
and others like them, and also fans who know even less than they do,
into thinking that a few well chosen words by him -- and the ones up there WERE
well chosen -- should work magic in the minds of the people who read them.
If they don't, he figures it's their fault.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.
>
> Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
> a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.

Well, why we don't swallow it, or inhale? Because in that case, our
body would process it, wouldn't it? And spit it out. Our body controls
our inhalation and what we swallow.

>>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
>>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
>>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
>>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or
>>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>
> Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
> lost sight of his main point.

>> And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
>> introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
>> things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.
>
> WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
> training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
> train him to counteract.

WRONG! I mean, those things are LEGO cubes, aren't they? You say that
we created something that is alive, and with its own mind, and
everything? No, we didn't. I very much doubt. And that we "programmed"
it to work like the "real thing". So, why don't you create a sparring
partner for a boxer to train, instead using a live humans?

>> Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
>> live opponent.
>
> You have completely missed the point.
>
> Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
> who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly risky
> to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your vaccine "sparring partner"
> knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.

Hm, in somebody's dreams.

> Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is more likely
> to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2 viruses
> that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?

Not at all (it is you who missed the point). I explained it in detail,
I am claiming that our immune system will become worse, less agile and
it will be disoriented, if vaccination "helps" him to work. Just like I
mentioned cars that "help" us to walk.

> This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse effects; one
> secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm would
> fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and the second dose
> wasn't nearly as bad.
>
> It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to figure out
> how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you might get a bloody nose
> by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
> But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.

No, it is nothing like that. It is like using robots to be sparring
partners. They will never be good enough. And, by saying this, I was
more than generous in comparing robots to this thing.

> And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
> as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):
>
> https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness? It is
NOT caused by the virus. It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
immune system that lost its calibration.
See, you have short people, you have tall people. But, you don't have
people 2 miles high, nor you have people 2 millimeters short. There are
some proportions, and some buffer zone for variations, that is embedded
in us. All humans are between 0.5 meters and 3 meters.
And the same goes for everything. This is how things work, things
don't behave like they are mad. But, our immune system blew up those
proportions, and inflict our bodies too hard. If organism is too weak,
it will not withstand that pressure. And exactly this is what is
happening, weak organisms die because our immune system is working too
hard. Virus isn't the problem at all, it is the not-adjusted work of our
immune system that is the problem. Our immune system isn't sure,
anymore, how hard it should work. It is confused, it is disoriented.

>> I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is
>> in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
>> the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
>
> You are on the right track, but you aren't connecting the dots sufficiently.
> A vaccine is not at all like a boxing bag. I hope I've made that clear.

No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
create some Supermen that fights viruses. No, humans didn't manage to
create in few months something that nature spent 4 billion years to
create. Forget it.
Scientists created only some vague fake thing, nothing more, the most
rough thing you can imagine. What do you think is inside this needle?
Some generic crap, that happens to help somehow, nobody knows *exactly*
how. Because nobody knows *exactly* what is happening inside. Some guy,
100 years ago, used some dead virus, injected it, and it happened that
it works, somehow. And that's about it, no Supermen from movies, or from
Star Trek series.
A car is far more sophisticated than vaccine. Because you can see it,
you can understand the forces, you know what it needs to do, you design
it in tune with that knowledge. The design of vaccination is nothing
like that. Nobody knows what exactly it is doing, will it be good for
pregnant women, will it affect those below the age of 16, everybody is
extremely cautious, because nobody knows what is, actually, going on?

> And please take the following to heart. Without prior exposure to the coronavirus,
> you are unlikely to have any antibodies that protect you from it, and your immune
> system has no memory that a prior exposure gives of what kinds of antibodies
> to crank out.
>
> And so, it has to figure out by trial and error when the virus invades. And while
> it is figuring it out, the virus multiplies fast enough to be in a good position
> to overwhelm your system before enough antibodies can be produced.

Hm, strangely, young people have everything that is necessary, for
them this is only a mild thing.

>> They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.
>
> But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
> he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.

Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?
And this is the problem with vaccination. Our immune system fights
diseases guided by a vaccine. This makes him less fit. Because we all
will be less fit, we all will die if we continue to use vaccination.
This Covid-19 thing is just the first glimpse of the shape of things to
come. It'll be worse and worse, this is just the first glimpse.

>> I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.
>
> Yes, "They say" just doesn't cut it.
>
>
>> Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven, it doesn't happen.
>
> Do NOT confuse Harshman, the only one here with a degree in biology [although
> I suspect Pandora has one and is a far better scientist than Harshman] with
> a scientist who hasn't forgotten how to teach adults.
>
> Harshman has been spoiled rotten by the other people I've named up there,
> and others like them, and also fans who know even less than they do,
> into thinking that a few well chosen words by him -- and the ones up there WERE
> well chosen -- should work magic in the minds of the people who read them.
> If they don't, he figures it's their fault.

On 7.9.2021. 4:51, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>         And this is the problem with vaccination. Our immune system
> fights diseases guided by a vaccine. This makes him less fit. Because we
> all will be less fit, we all will die if we continue to use vaccination.
> This Covid-19 thing is just the first glimpse of the shape of things to
> come. It'll be worse and worse, this is just the first glimpse.

Actually, this is excellent analogy. Fighting viruses with vaccines is
like if a perfectly fit man (the immune system) would let be guided by a
blind man (a vaccine). See? This is what this actually is. A perfectly
fit boxer guided by a boxing beg.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On 9/6/2021 8:18 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
>> On 9/2/2021 11:30 AM, erik simpson wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
>
> I've snipped a bunch of things that I will have to reprimand Mario about,

So get on with it then.

> but first, I need to defend my reputation, because no one -- not even Mario --
> will do it for me, whereas there are several who are still willing to defend the
> reputation of Oxyaena/Thrinaxodon.

Maybe cause your reputation isn't worth shit.

>
>>>> To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
>>>> apologize for poking him. I will stop now.
>>>
>>> No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
>>> troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be that stupid and still
>>> be alive.
>
>> I don't know,
>
> Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena knows, but finds it much more rewarding to be loved
> by people named below for pretending otherwise:

I do indeed know that you are a giant jackoff.

>
>> one look at Peter proves that one can *indeed* be that
>> stupid and somehow end up a tenured professor.
>
> Of course, Oxyaena/Thrinaxodon knows better than to tell anyone
> what, if anything, "that stupid" refers to: it would ruin the whole effect.

You're too dense to get what I refer to. It's blindingly obvious to
anyone that's not named "Peter Nyikos".

>
> One look at the posting history of Thrinaxodon, having tried for six years to reinvent herself as Oxyaena,
> shows how a dog returns to his/her vomit at last.

You've been saying things to the exact same effect for the last six
years now. One wonders how many transformations and reverse
transformations I have undergone since then, at least according to you.

>
> And Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena can do it as long as 'e wants,

You do realize my pronouns are "she/her" right? You were perfectly fine
referring to me by those pronouns until this post, in which you stopped
doing so presumably out of spite. Typical.

> because Harshman, Simpson, Hemidactylus,
> Mark Issaak, jillery, and others who show up too infrequently on sci.bio.paleontology to be worth
> mentioning, can be counted on to play "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" about that vomit.

You and Mario are the ones puking all over the electronic floorboard.

>
> The most you will ever see is the way Harshman played "good cop" to "bad cop" Oxyaena,
> when the latter puked all over me for not knowing about a Mesozoic gliding mammal,
> saying that one shouldn't be so nasty right off the bat to "even someone like Peter."
>
> Harshman exited the thread when Oxyaena proved to be too hatefully incorrigible,
> and so he missed how I later discovered the thread and admitted to my carelessness
> in not having specified "Cenozoic gliding mammal".

Damage control mode activated.

>
> To my mind it was clear from the way bat ancestry was the theme, and no gliding mammals
> have been found among fossils within the whole of Eutheria, let alone the crown group Placentalia,
> before modern bats are found in the fossil record.

Here we see Peter continues to operate in "damage control mode."

>
> Eutheria split off from Metatheria (marsupials and kin) well back in the Cretaceous, so "Cenozoic"
> was understating the case, but there was no need for overkill.

Peter continues to operate in "damage control mode."

>
>
> I wonder whether this incident was what Oxyaena had in mind when writing "that stupid." The way
> 'e kept referring to me as "Professor Asshat" on that thread, it is certainly possible.

I was calling you that out of spite. It's also an accurate title, but I
digress.

>
>
> Peter Nyikos
> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> University of South Carolina
> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>

On 9/6/21 6:32 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.
>
> Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
> a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.
>
>
> <snip for focus>
>
>
>>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
>>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
>>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
>>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or
>>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>
> Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
> lost sight of his main point.
>
> <snip for focus>
>
>
>> And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
>> introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
>> things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.
>
> WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
> training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
> train him to counteract.
>
>> Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
>> live opponent.
>
> You have completely missed the point.
>
> Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
> who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly risky
> to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your vaccine "sparring partner"
> knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.
>
> Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is more likely
> to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2 viruses
> that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?
>
> This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse effects; one
> secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm would
> fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and the second dose
> wasn't nearly as bad.
>
> It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to figure out
> how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you might get a bloody nose
> by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
> But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.
>
> And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
> as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):
>
> https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_
>
>
>> I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is
>> in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
>> the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
>
> You are on the right track, but you aren't connecting the dots sufficiently.
> A vaccine is not at all like a boxing bag. I hope I've made that clear.
>
> And please take the following to heart. Without prior exposure to the coronavirus,
> you are unlikely to have any antibodies that protect you from it, and your immune
> system has no memory that a prior exposure gives of what kinds of antibodies
> to crank out.
>
> And so, it has to figure out by trial and error when the virus invades. And while
> it is figuring it out, the virus multiplies fast enough to be in a good position
> to overwhelm your system before enough antibodies can be produced.
>
>
>> They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.
>
> But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
> he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.
>
>
>> I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.
>
> Yes, "They say" just doesn't cut it.
>
>
>> Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven, it doesn't happen.
>
> Do NOT confuse Harshman, the only one here with a degree in biology [although
> I suspect Pandora has one and is a far better scientist than Harshman] with
> a scientist who hasn't forgotten how to teach adults.
>
> Harshman has been spoiled rotten by the other people I've named up there,
> and others like them, and also fans who know even less than they do,
> into thinking that a few well chosen words by him -- and the ones up there WERE
> well chosen -- should work magic in the minds of the people who read them.
> If they don't, he figures it's their fault.

Thanks?

On 9/6/21 7:51 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic
>> wrote:
>>> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
>>>>>>> mechanism.
>>
>> Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
>> a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.
>
>         Well, why we don't swallow it, or inhale? Because in that case,
> our body would process it, wouldn't it? And spit it out. Our body
> controls our inhalation and what we swallow.

But you've also said that you disapprove of oral vaccines too. Try to
keep your story straight.

>>>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
>>>> antigens
>>>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
>>>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
>>>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune
>>>> system or
>>>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>>
>> Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
>> lost sight of his main point.
>
>>> And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
>>> introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
>>> things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.
>>
>> WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
>> training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
>> train him to counteract.
>
>         WRONG! I mean, those things are LEGO cubes, aren't they? You
> say that we created something that is alive, and with its own mind, and
> everything? No, we didn't. I very much doubt. And that we "programmed"
> it to work like the "real thing". So, why don't you create a sparring
> partner for a boxer to train, instead using a live humans?

All analogies break down. This one breaks down sooner than many. But you
did completely miss its point. It's not the fact that the analogical
sparring partner is alive with his own mind that counts. It's that he
teaches you how to fight a deadly opponent. And "teaches" is another
poor analogy. You (your immune system) just learns from the example.
("Learns" is also a metaphor, of course.)

And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
get from the spike protein alone.

>>> Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
>>> live opponent.
>>
>> You have completely missed the point.
>>
>> Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
>> who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly
>> risky
>> to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your
>> vaccine "sparring partner"
>>   knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.
>
>         Hm, in somebody's dreams.
>
>> Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is
>> more likely
>> to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2
>> viruses
>> that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?
>
>         Not at all (it is you who missed the point). I explained it in
> detail, I am claiming that our immune system will become worse, less
> agile and it will be disoriented, if vaccination "helps" him to work.
> Just like I mentioned cars that "help" us to walk.

That's a strong claim. But what backs it up? "Agile" and "disoriented"
are more bad metaphors. How does responding to an antigen weaken the
immune system?

>> This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse
>> effects; one
>> secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm
>> would
>> fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and
>> the second dose
>> wasn't nearly as bad.
>>
>> It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to
>> figure out
>> how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you
>> might get a bloody nose
>> by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
>> But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.
>
>         No, it is nothing like that. It is like using robots to be
> sparring partners. They will never be good enough. And, by saying this,
> I was more than generous in comparing robots to this thing.

You are lost in analogies. Instead you should consider the actual system.

>> And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
>> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly
>> possibilities here,
>> as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95
>> means 95%):
>>
>> https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_
>>
>
>         I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19
> illness? It is NOT caused by the virus. It is that, weak organisms are
> destroyed by our immune system that lost its calibration.
>         See, you have short people, you have tall people. But, you
> don't have people 2 miles high, nor you have people 2 millimeters short.
> There are some proportions, and some buffer zone for variations, that is
> embedded in us. All humans are between 0.5 meters and 3 meters.
>         And the same goes for everything. This is how things work,
> things don't behave like they are mad. But, our immune system blew up
> those proportions, and inflict our bodies too hard. If organism is too
> weak, it will not withstand that pressure. And exactly this is what is
> happening, weak organisms die because our immune system is working too
> hard. Virus isn't the problem at all, it is the not-adjusted work of our
> immune system that is the problem. Our immune system isn't sure,
> anymore, how hard it should work. It is confused, it is disoriented.

Please provide support for this odd contention from the peer-reviewed
scientific literature, which doesn't include some comment you read on
some random web site.

>>> I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is
>>> in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
>>> the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
>>
>> You are on the right track, but you aren't connecting the dots
>> sufficiently.
>> A vaccine is not at all like a boxing bag. I hope I've made that clear.
>
>         No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans
> managed to create some Supermen that fights viruses. No, humans didn't
> manage to create in few months something that nature spent 4 billion
> years to create. Forget it.
>         Scientists created only some vague fake thing, nothing more,
> the most rough thing you can imagine. What do you think is inside this
> needle? Some generic crap, that happens to help somehow, nobody knows
> *exactly* how. Because nobody knows *exactly* what is happening inside.
> Some guy, 100 years ago, used some dead virus, injected it, and it
> happened that it works, somehow. And that's about it, no Supermen from
> movies, or from Star Trek series.

This isn't true. We know exactly how vaccines work. And covid vaccines
contain either spike proteins or mRNAs that are translated to produce
spike proteins.

>         A car is far more sophisticated than vaccine. Because you can
> see it, you can understand the forces, you know what it needs to do, you
> design it in tune with that knowledge. The design of vaccination is
> nothing like that. Nobody knows what exactly it is doing, will it be
> good for pregnant women, will it affect those below the age of 16,
> everybody is extremely cautious, because nobody knows what is, actually,
> going on?
>
>> And please take the following to heart. Without prior exposure to the
>> coronavirus,
>> you are unlikely to have any antibodies that protect you from it, and
>> your immune
>> system has no memory that a prior exposure gives of what kinds of
>> antibodies
>> to crank out.
>>
>> And so, it has to figure out by trial and error when the virus
>> invades. And while
>> it is figuring it out, the virus multiplies fast enough to be in a
>> good position
>> to overwhelm your system before enough antibodies can be produced.
>
>         Hm, strangely, young people have everything that is necessary,
> for them this is only a mild thing.

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
> >>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
> >>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
> >
> >>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
> >>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
> >>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
> >>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
> >>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.
> >
> > Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
> > a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.

> Well, why we don't swallow it, or inhale?

Because there is no Covid-19 vaccine that we can swallow or inhale.

> Because in that case, our
> body would process it, wouldn't it?

It processes the oral polio vaccine. Our mouths are not sufficiently finely
tuned to recognize dangerous substances. Many people die yearly because they
eat mushrooms that are deadly poison, like *Amanita phaillodes* and *Amanita virosa*.

> And spit it out. Our body controls
> our inhalation and what we swallow.

By "defense mechanism," were you completely ignoring your immune system?
I thought that this WAS what you meant, and I meant "giving your immune system a sporting chance".

> >>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
> >>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
> >>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
> >>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or
> >>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
> >
> > Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
> > lost sight of his main point.

> >> And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
> >> introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
> >> things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.
> >
> > WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
> > training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
> > train him to counteract.

> WRONG! I mean, those things are LEGO cubes, aren't they?

RNA is not a bunch of Lego cubes. Please try to make sense. And please don't parrot
words like "WRONG!" unless you are prepared to back up what follows
in whatever depth is necessary, like I am.

Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:

> You say that we created something that is alive, and with its own mind, and
> everything?

PLEASE try to understand vaccine basics. The mRNA in the Pfizer and Moderna
vaccines is a polynucleotide that has been isolated from SARS-CoV-2 and
verified not to contain recognition sequences that are irrelevant to the spike
protein being translated from it by the ribosomes in the cells.

Do you not understand the enormous number of things that are neither Legos
nor living things with their own minds? How much do you know about
biochemistry? It is intermediate but far removed from both extremes.

> No, we didn't. I very much doubt.

I'm glad you very much doubt a figment of your imagination, which nobody in sci.bio.paleontology
ever hinted at until you came along and did it just now.

> And that we "programmed"
> it to work like the "real thing".

It IS the real thing that is translated into spike protein from those Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
If they had tried to program it to be anything else, it would have been completely useless against Covid-19.

> So, why don't you create a sparring
> partner for a boxer to train, instead using a live humans?

This nonsense makes me wonder whether Erik Simpson was right to call you a troll.
He is a troll a great deal of the time himself, but as the old half-truth says,
"It takes one to know one."

Remainder deleted, to be replied to later.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

PS I see Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena is disappointed by the post to which you are replying,
because I didn't reprimand you the way 'e was hoping I would. I suppose 'e will think
that I still am not reprimanding you sufficiently. However, if you continue to deteriorate
at the rate you are, perhaps his/her insatiable appetite for reprimands between
people 'e hates with an unreasoning hatred will be temporarily appeased.

PPS After I composed the PS, but before I sent this post off, Harshman also expressed a (less high) degree
of disappointment. It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.

On 9/7/21 6:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
> to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:

Was that really necessary?

Or this?:

> He is a troll a great deal of the time himself, but as the old half-truth says,
> "It takes one to know one."

Your inability to avoid gratuitous insults directed at third parties is
not a virtue. Why not try to resist the impulse? It adds nothing to your
posts.

> It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.

Well, at least that served some kind of purpose and wasn't an insult. My
reaction is that your comments on vaccines were on topic and largely
correct. Mario will not be budged. It would help (well, no, nothing
would actually help) to illuminate more of his inconsistencies. For
example, he opposed injected vaccines and asked why they aren't
swallowed, but in fact he opposes oral vaccines too, so that entire
argument was a distraction, probably made up on the spur of the moment,
and without regard to coherence. At such times he does assume a trollish
aspect.

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:34:07 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> On 9/7/21 6:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
> > to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:

<snip of self-and-Simpson-and-Oxyaena-serving comments by yourself>

> > It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.

> Well, at least that served some kind of purpose and wasn't an insult. My
> reaction is that your comments on vaccines were on topic and largely
> correct.

I think they were more correct in some places than yours. What makes you think that the
following is true?

"And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
get from the spike protein alone."

This was from your parallel reply to Mario. I do not understand what you mean by
"gets nothing." Do you imagine that whole of the damage wrought by
Covid-19 is due to the spike protein alone? [1] or that the only antibodies the body
produces against the live virus are targeted at the spike protein and no other
part of the virus?

[1] That would be grist for the mill of the anti-vaxxers who focus the greatest of their ire
on mRNA vaccines. Of course, they would be under the spell of the most toxic
piece of disinformation of all, that the mRNA would multiply and spread over all of your
cells, but they will gladly take any crumb of support that comes their way, even from
anti-anti-vaxxers like you and me.

> Mario will not be budged. It would help (well, no, nothing would actually help)
> to illuminate more of his inconsistencies.

I intend to do so in any case, and also to show how mistaken he is about
some pretty important things that you didn't try to show him being mistaken about.
Let me be the judge of whether it helps or not.

> For example, he opposed injected vaccines and asked why they aren't
> swallowed, but in fact he opposes oral vaccines too, so that entire
> argument was a distraction, probably made up on the spur of the moment,
> and without regard to coherence. At such times he does assume a trollish
> aspect.

Did you bother to read what I wrote about the very thing you are talking about here?
It was specifically designed to see whether he keeps sliding down the slippery slope
or whether he sobers up and tries to get back on track. General comments like
yours above do not tend to impose such choices on the people they are designed
to nudge in the right direction.

Mario, of course, might choose the wrong direction, but he is not such a known
quantity to me as you and two others that I named are -- the two others whose
names I have put into a hyphenated phrase at the top.
I am still trying to get the hang of Mario's *modus operandi*, hence all the trouble to which I am going for him.

Peter Nyikos

I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time for three isolated
issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:

> > And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
> > could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
> > as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):
> >
> > https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

> I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?

Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the long and
hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never read it.

> It is NOT caused by the virus.

Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think that
you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the Communist government
issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was critical of the government
and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?

> It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
> immune system that lost its calibration.

Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at risk by not getting vaccinated.
Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by getting vaccinated.
You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.

<snip for focus>

> No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
> create some Supermen that fights viruses.

This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.

<snip for focus>

> >> They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
> >> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.
> >
> > But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
> > he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.

> Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
> of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a biological expression.
It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."

[By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]

The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of the barren tautology:
the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes on to the population.

It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are more fit than others.
The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which is too unpredictable.
In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the environment favored
large size; today the same species only has six foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
the environment favors.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On 7.9.2021. 15:11, John Harshman wrote:
> On 9/6/21 7:51 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario
>>> Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
>>>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
>>>>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for
>>>>>>>>> polio?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
>>>>>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
>>>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
>>>>>>>> mechanism.
>>>
>>> Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
>>> a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.
>>
>>          Well, why we don't swallow it, or inhale? Because in that
>> case, our body would process it, wouldn't it? And spit it out. Our
>> body controls our inhalation and what we swallow.
>
> But you've also said that you disapprove of oral vaccines too. Try to
> keep your story straight.

But I also said that these are two separate topics. I said that,
*whatever you do*, don't go around your defense mechanism. But, *apart
from that*, don't drive in your car every day if you need to be good runner.
Those two are two separate topics, and there is no reason to omit the
second topic in this thread just to make my story more straight, because
it is closely related.

>>>>> I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
>>>>> antigens
>>>>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
>>>>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
>>>>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune
>>>>> system or
>>>>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.
>>>
>>> Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
>>> lost sight of his main point.
>>
>>>> And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
>>>> introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
>>>> things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.
>>>
>>> WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
>>> training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
>>> train him to counteract.
>>
>>          WRONG! I mean, those things are LEGO cubes, aren't they? You
>> say that we created something that is alive, and with its own mind,
>> and everything? No, we didn't. I very much doubt. And that we
>> "programmed" it to work like the "real thing". So, why don't you
>> create a sparring partner for a boxer to train, instead using a live
>> humans?
>
> All analogies break down. This one breaks down sooner than many. But you
> did completely miss its point. It's not the fact that the analogical
> sparring partner is alive with his own mind that counts. It's that he
> teaches you how to fight a deadly opponent. And "teaches" is another
> poor analogy. You (your immune system) just learns from the example.
> ("Learns" is also a metaphor, of course.)
>
> And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
> get from the spike protein alone.

Ok, I will not go into it why this isn't true, I'll try to explain it
the other, simpler, way.
Imagine if our system needs to rise body temperature to fight illness.
Then you introduce some pill that controls the body temperature, and it
is a perfect pill, does exactly what you want it to do.
Well, illness has its own tempo it has its curve of activity, and our
system is used to it, it knows it very well, and it adjusts to it. But
then you introduce this pill, which messes up this whole process.
Instead of our system gets better used with every new illness, now our
system is more and more confused with every new illness. Why? Because it
doesn't count on the effect of the pill, it doesn't control the amount
of pills that you intake into system, it isn't in control, now your
doctor wants to be in control of your body. Well, if your doctor wants
to be in control, then let him be the system. It cannot be that two
captains are on one ship.
The other thing is that your doctor doesn't know a sh.t about the
whole process (he is only learning, but probably he will not know enough
even after few thousand years of learning), while your system is adapted
to it, and knows what he needs to know. Yet, your doctor really wants to
be in control of the whole thing. Well...

>>>> Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
>>>> live opponent.
>>>
>>> You have completely missed the point.
>>>
>>> Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
>>> who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly
>>> risky
>>> to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your
>>> vaccine "sparring partner"
>>>   knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.
>>
>>          Hm, in somebody's dreams.
>>
>>> Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine
>>> is more likely
>>> to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2
>>> viruses
>>> that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?
>>
>>          Not at all (it is you who missed the point). I explained it
>> in detail, I am claiming that our immune system will become worse,
>> less agile and it will be disoriented, if vaccination "helps" him to
>> work. Just like I mentioned cars that "help" us to walk.
>
> That's a strong claim. But what backs it up? "Agile" and "disoriented"
> are more bad metaphors. How does responding to an antigen weaken the
> immune system?

When virus comes, the system needs to respond to virus, not to
something else. You say that it responds to antigen *like* it would
respond to virus. Ok, its perfectly alright. The only thing is that now
the system responds to virus *like* it would respond to antigen. But,
there is no antigen yet. So, what does the system do? He goes mad.

>>> This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse
>>> effects; one
>>> secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm
>>> would
>>> fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and
>>> the second dose
>>> wasn't nearly as bad.
>>>
>>> It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to
>>> figure out
>>> how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you
>>> might get a bloody nose
>>> by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
>>> But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.
>>
>>          No, it is nothing like that. It is like using robots to be
>> sparring partners. They will never be good enough. And, by saying
>> this, I was more than generous in comparing robots to this thing.
>
> You are lost in analogies. Instead you should consider the actual system.
>
>>> And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
>>> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly
>>> possibilities here,
>>> as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url
>>> (95 means 95%):
>>>
>>> https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_
>>>
>>
>>          I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19
>> illness? It is NOT caused by the virus. It is that, weak organisms are
>> destroyed by our immune system that lost its calibration.
>>          See, you have short people, you have tall people. But, you
>> don't have people 2 miles high, nor you have people 2 millimeters
>> short. There are some proportions, and some buffer zone for
>> variations, that is embedded in us. All humans are between 0.5 meters
>> and 3 meters.
>>          And the same goes for everything. This is how things work,
>> things don't behave like they are mad. But, our immune system blew up
>> those proportions, and inflict our bodies too hard. If organism is too
>> weak, it will not withstand that pressure. And exactly this is what is
>> happening, weak organisms die because our immune system is working too
>> hard. Virus isn't the problem at all, it is the not-adjusted work of
>> our immune system that is the problem. Our immune system isn't sure,
>> anymore, how hard it should work. It is confused, it is disoriented.
>
> Please provide support for this odd contention from the peer-reviewed
> scientific literature, which doesn't include some comment you read on
> some random web site.

On 9/7/21 7:58 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:34:07 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 9/7/21 6:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
>>> to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:
>
>
> <snip of self-and-Simpson-and-Oxyaena-serving comments by yourself>
>
>
>>> It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.
>
>> Well, at least that served some kind of purpose and wasn't an insult. My
>> reaction is that your comments on vaccines were on topic and largely
>> correct.
>
> I think they were more correct in some places than yours. What makes you think that the
> following is true?
>
> "And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
> get from the spike protein alone."

What makes you think it isn't true? The spike protein is the antigen
that the immune system reacts to. That's why vaccines are effective.

> This was from your parallel reply to Mario. I do not understand what you mean by
> "gets nothing." Do you imagine that whole of the damage wrought by
> Covid-19 is due to the spike protein alone? [1] or that the only antibodies the body
> produces against the live virus are targeted at the spike protein and no other
> part of the virus?

Your first question is irrelevant, as damage is not the topic. For the
second question, I think that's likely true. It's what is exposed on the
surface. Are there other antigens also targeted? What do you know about
that?

> [1] That would be grist for the mill of the anti-vaxxers who focus the greatest of their ire
> on mRNA vaccines. Of course, they would be under the spell of the most toxic
> piece of disinformation of all, that the mRNA would multiply and spread over all of your
> cells, but they will gladly take any crumb of support that comes their way, even from
> anti-anti-vaxxers like you and me.

This would seem to be a footnote without a referent. What would be
grist? What support for anti-vaxxers? Is it something I said?

>> Mario will not be budged. It would help (well, no, nothing would actually help)
>> to illuminate more of his inconsistencies.
>
> I intend to do so in any case, and also to show how mistaken he is about
> some pretty important things that you didn't try to show him being mistaken about.
> Let me be the judge of whether it helps or not.

Sure. Your experience will be instructive. I will just take the
opportunity to predict that nothing you do will change his view.

>> For example, he opposed injected vaccines and asked why they aren't
>> swallowed, but in fact he opposes oral vaccines too, so that entire
>> argument was a distraction, probably made up on the spur of the moment,
>> and without regard to coherence. At such times he does assume a trollish
>> aspect.
>
> Did you bother to read what I wrote about the very thing you are talking about here?

Yes.

> It was specifically designed to see whether he keeps sliding down the slippery slope
> or whether he sobers up and tries to get back on track. General comments like
> yours above do not tend to impose such choices on the people they are designed
> to nudge in the right direction.

There is no nudging, as it assumes that the target is capable of being
moved. Good luck.

> Mario, of course, might choose the wrong direction, but he is not such a known
> quantity to me as you and two others that I named are -- the two others whose
> names I have put into a hyphenated phrase at the top.
> I am still trying to get the hang of Mario's *modus operandi*, hence all the trouble to which I am going for him.

Sure. You have fun with that.

On 7.9.2021. 17:42, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time for three isolated
> issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.
>
> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
>
>
>>> And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
>>> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
>>> as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):
>>>
>>> https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_
>
>> I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?
>
> Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the long and
> hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never read it.

No, I didn't read it. I did read the title, which says that 95 % of
people in hospitals aren't vaccinated. The title says what's in article.
Your point is that I think that vaccination is dangerous. No, I don't
think that the danger is imminent, and that it causes some damage to
body. So, why would I read it? If the article says that it doesn't
damage body, well, I agree with this.

>> It is NOT caused by the virus.
>
> Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think that
> you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

There wasn't amti-vaxxer propaganda yet (and, I don't read anti-vaxxer
propaganda, anyway, I don't go to Facebook, this forum, and the national
tv, is my only source of information.). This was what experts found out
at the very beginning of the outbreak.

> Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the Communist government
> issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was critical of the government
> and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
> And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?

I knew that Communist propaganda is a lie since I was just a little
kid. Of course, I didn't figure out through all of the lies, but I
automatically assume that, whatever communists are saying is a lie.
Regarding all governments, I figured out that science is rotten (not
so long ago, maybe not more than 10 years ago, but I noticed some
"funny" things since I was a kid, since I am following space research
from that age, and science was always wrong in this field of research,
so, I was suspicious for a long time, I also knew that humans are not
smart, since I am living on Balkans, in Croatia). So, in general,
governments rely on science, science is rotten, so where does this leads
us to? It was so good, for so long time, in the developed world, and now
the developed world experiment too much, thinking nothing can go wrong.
There is nothing worse than thinking that you are a god, that you know
"the right way". First, you don't know a sh.t, and second, "the right
way" changes, according to circumstances. You have to be smart at every
point of your way, and not just to step accidentally onto the right
track, thinking that you are a god, and follow in the same direction, no
matter if the track turns away.

>> It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
>> immune system that lost its calibration.
>
> Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at risk by not getting vaccinated.
> Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by getting vaccinated.
> You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.

By my example I am giving my support to people who will have
descendants, and who will not vaccinate.

>> No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
>> create some Supermen that fights viruses.
>
> This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.
>
>
> <snip for focus>
>
>
>>>> They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
>>>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.
>>>
>>> But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
>>> he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.
>
>> Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
>> of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?
>
> I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a biological expression.
> It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
> one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."
>
> [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]
>
>
> The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of the barren tautology:
> the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes on to the population.
>
> It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are more fit than others.
> The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
> Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
> is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which is too unpredictable.
> In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the environment favored
> large size; today the same species only has six foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
> the environment favors.

Yes, I agree. And all this is very interesting discussion, on which I
have nothing to add. If you have questions, please ask.
Regarding the topic of vaccination, I believe I said a lot in my reply
to Harshman. If you have any objections, again, please ask.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:51:11 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> On 9/7/21 7:58 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:34:07 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> >> On 9/7/21 6:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>> Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
> >>> to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:
> >
> >
> > <snip of self-and-Simpson-and-Oxyaena-serving comments by yourself>
> >
> >
> >>> It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.
> >
> >> Well, at least that served some kind of purpose and wasn't an insult. My
> >> reaction is that your comments on vaccines were on topic and largely
> >> correct.
> >
> > I think they were more correct in some places than yours. What makes you think that the
> > following is true?
> >
> > "And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
> > get from the spike protein alone."

> What makes you think it isn't true? The spike protein is the antigen
> that the immune system reacts to.

Where did you pick up this counterintuitive information? The protein coat
is made up of more than just the spike protein, isn't it?

For sure, the mRNA of the spike protein is just a small part of the RNA of single-strand genome of the
coronavirus. The bulk of it is devoted to something I've never seen in any other
organism: a coding for an enzyme that duplicates RNA directly. I've long known of
transcriptase, reverse transcriptase, and DNA polymerase, but never before
of RNA polymerase.

It even raises questions about its origin. I have rejected any speculation that
it is a relict from RNA world [can you guess why?] and instead believe that it arose
by a mutation of one of the three classes of enzymes that I'd known about.

By the way, I thought for a long time that reverse transcriptase is only known from
retroviruses, but I've seen reports recently that claim it is coded for in the human genome.

> That's why vaccines are effective.

I'm surprised to see you use such simplistic logic; it confuses necessary and sufficient conditions.

> > This was from your parallel reply to Mario. I do not understand what you mean by
> > "gets nothing." Do you imagine that whole of the damage wrought by
> > Covid-19 is due to the spike protein alone? [1] or that the only antibodies the body
> > produces against the live virus are targeted at the spike protein and no other
> > part of the virus?

> Your first question is irrelevant, as damage is not the topic. For the
> second question, I think that's likely true. It's what is exposed on the
> surface. Are there other antigens also targeted? What do you know about
> that?

> > [1] That would be grist for the mill of the anti-vaxxers who focus the greatest of their ire
> > on mRNA vaccines. Of course, they would be under the spell of the most toxic
> > piece of disinformation of all, that the mRNA would multiply and spread over all of your
> > cells, but they will gladly take any crumb of support that comes their way, even from
> > anti-anti-vaxxers like you and me.

> This would seem to be a footnote without a referent.

What part of "... due to the spike protein alone? [1]" didn't you understand?

> What would be
> grist? What support for anti-vaxxers? Is it something I said?
> >> Mario will not be budged. It would help (well, no, nothing would actually help)
> >> to illuminate more of his inconsistencies.
> >
> > I intend to do so in any case, and also to show how mistaken he is about
> > some pretty important things that you didn't try to show him being mistaken about.

An example was Mario's sophomoric claims about "survival of the fittest."
Dealt with by me after I posted the above.

> > Let me be the judge of whether it helps or not.

> Sure. Your experience will be instructive. I will just take the
> opportunity to predict that nothing you do will change his view.

Understood.

> >> For example, he opposed injected vaccines and asked why they aren't
> >> swallowed, but in fact he opposes oral vaccines too, so that entire
> >> argument was a distraction, probably made up on the spur of the moment,
> >> and without regard to coherence. At such times he does assume a trollish
> >> aspect.
> >
> > Did you bother to read what I wrote about the very thing you are talking about here?
> Yes.
> > It was specifically designed to see whether he keeps sliding down the slippery slope
> > or whether he sobers up and tries to get back on track. General comments like
> > yours above do not tend to impose such choices on the people they are designed
> > to nudge in the right direction.

> There is no nudging, as it assumes that the target is capable of being
> moved.

I put the last clause in the wrong place. I had in mind the nudging I was doing,
and should have realized that you never wrote anything like your general comment
in reply to Mario.

> Good luck.

> > Mario, of course, might choose the wrong direction, but he is not such a known
> > quantity to me as you and two others that I named are -- the two others whose
> > names I have put into a hyphenated phrase at the top.
> > I am still trying to get the hang of Mario's *modus operandi*, hence all the trouble to which I am going for him.

> Sure. You have fun with that.

I will. It is always good to know where individuals are coming from -- something one of your allies
pretended not to believe in talk.origins, then soon revealed that he did very much believe it.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
Univ. of South Carolina -- standard disclaimer--
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 1:07:04 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 7.9.2021. 17:42, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time for three isolated
> > issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.
> >
> > On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >> On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >>>> On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
> >
> >
> >>> And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
> >>> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
> >>> as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):
> >>>
> >>> https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_
> >
> >> I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?
> >
> > Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the long and
> > hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never read it.

> No, I didn't read it. I did read the title, which says that 95 % of
> people in hospitals aren't vaccinated.

Not quite. It says over 95% of Covid-19 patients in hospitals aren't vaccinated.
These are the Covid-19 cases that are so severe, they require hospitalization.

And yet, at least half of the people in the USA [1] have been vaccinated by now.
That should tell you something about the effectiveness of the vaccine.

[1] Alas, the rest of the world is mostly much worse off, because the richer countries are selfishly
hoarding the vaccine. A month ago, some of the poorer countries had only 1.3% vaccinated.
That was one of the comments I made to the article.]

>The title says what's in article.

In fact, it says only a tiny smidgin of what's in the article, and you would
know that if you had read it. Do you ever read anything besides titles and headlines?

> Your point is that I think that vaccination is dangerous. No, I don't
> think that the danger is imminent, and that it causes some damage to
> body. So, why would I read it?

Because it is not about the damage the vaccine does,
but about the far worse damage that the disease does.
You would know that if you had read it.

> If the article says that it doesn't
> damage body, well, I agree with this.

If you had read the article, you would have to agree that the disease can
cause terrible damage to the body.

Yet you would still refuse to be vaccinated, wouldn't you? Why?

> >> It is NOT caused by the virus.
> >
> > Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think that
> > you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

> There wasn't amti-vaxxer propaganda yet (and, I don't read anti-vaxxer
> propaganda, anyway, I don't go to Facebook, this forum, and the national
> tv, is my only source of information.).

Facebook has plenty of people spouting anti-vaxxer sentiments.
But Facebook censors the worst of them, so it appears that it is
the national tv is the source of the anti-vaxxer propaganda, "It is NOT caused by the virus. "

>This was what experts found out
> at the very beginning of the outbreak.

Did you also see this on your national tv? Did they actually say who the "experts" were?

I seriously doubt that there is anyone, including Dr. Fauci, who can be claimed
to be an expert on the pandemic even NOW,
so I would really like to know who these alleged "experts" were.

> > Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the Communist government
> > issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was critical of the government
> > and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
> > And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?

> I knew that Communist propaganda is a lie since I was just a little
> kid. Of course, I didn't figure out through all of the lies, but I
> automatically assume that, whatever communists are saying is a lie.

That's going too far in the opposite direction. I did too, for a long time,
but I came to realize that some of it was true. For instance, the USA and Britain and France
WERE imperialist countries, and the USA still is: that is at the base of the tragedy
in Afghanistan, for instance.

> Regarding all governments, I figured out that science is rotten (not
> so long ago, maybe not more than 10 years ago, but I noticed some
> "funny" things since I was a kid, since I am following space research
> from that age, and science was always wrong in this field of research,

HUH???? are you one of the people who believe that all the moon landings
were faked, as was the near-tragedy of Apollo 13?

We did have someone like that in talk.origins for several years, who went
by the nickname "eridanus" [His real name may have been Leopolodo Perdomo.]
He was a Spaniard who, in many ways, reminded me of you.

> so, I was suspicious for a long time, I also knew that humans are not
> smart, since I am living on Balkans, in Croatia). So, in general,
> governments rely on science, science is rotten, so where does this leads
> us to? It was so good, for so long time, in the developed world, and now
> the developed world experiment too much, thinking nothing can go wrong.
> There is nothing worse than thinking that you are a god, that you know
> "the right way".

Then why are you so sure of so many things that aren't correct?

> First, you don't know a sh.t, and second, "the right
> way" changes, according to circumstances. You have to be smart at every
> point of your way, and not just to step accidentally onto the right
> track, thinking that you are a god, and follow in the same direction, no
> matter if the track turns away.
> >> It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
> >> immune system that lost its calibration.
> >
> > Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at risk by not getting vaccinated.
> > Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by getting vaccinated.
> > You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.

> By my example I am giving my support to people who will have
> descendants, and who will not vaccinate.

And who may suffer the tragedies that you would know about, if you
had read the article I linked for you. Do you like the idea of their children
spitting on your grave if they suffer them, say, thirty years from now,
when they are as old as you and the children are in the prime of adulthood?

> >> No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
> >> create some Supermen that fights viruses.
> >
> > This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.
> >
> >
> > <snip for focus>
> >
> >
> >>>> They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
> >>>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.
> >>>
> >>> But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
> >>> he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.
> >
> >> Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit.

If what I said about children spitting on your grave comes to pass, this
might rouse them to more extreme actions, were they to see this.

Are you familiar with Dickens's "A Christmas Carol"? Ebenezer Scrooge said something
along the same lines, but he came to be remorseful when his heart went out to Tiny Tim,
and the Ghost of Christmas Present brought his words back to haunt him.

> > >The fittest survive, anybody
> >> of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?
> >
> > I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a biological expression.
> > It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
> > one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."
> >
> > [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]
> >
> >
> > The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of the barren tautology:
> > the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes on to the population.
> >
> > It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are more fit than others.
> > The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
> > Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
> > is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which is too unpredictable.
> > In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the environment favored
> > large size; today the same species only has six foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
> > the environment favors.