On 2023-12-09 14:56, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-12-09 13:47, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-09 10:03, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> [...]
>>> Note that Jörg is comparing iMessage to the other mentioned IM
>>> platforms.
>>>
>>> Those IM platforms *are* available on multiple OS platforms. For
>>> example WhatsApp is available on Android, iOS, macOS and for other
>>> platforms there's WhatsApp Web. So WhatsApp not only works between
>>> Apple devices, but also with/between the other mentioned devices.
>>>
>>> So what you say "is not practically feasible", *is* actually possible.
>>>
>>> And how's iMessage's "feature set" only on/between Apple devices
>>> supposed to be better than - for example - WhatsApp's feature set
>>> on/between Apple *and* non-Apple devices?
>>
>> Where iMessage (the service and/or the app) provides extensions related
>> to various Apple devices, 3rd party extensions and so on.
>
> Can you eloborate on that? What kind of extensions? What kind of extra
> functionality do they offer, which is not or not likely to be available
> on other IM platforms?

Payments, use the camera from messages, location, Dropbox integration,
etc. "Check-in" to auto-message someone when you've arrived at a planned
destination, graphical messages (time-oriented playback of how you gen'd
the message), maps ... etc. too many to list.

>
> [...]
>
>>> I fully accept that you know what iMessage can do, but don't -
>>> implicitly - assume that another IM platform - which you do *not* use -
>>> cannot do something.
>>
>> Oh - of course I know they do all sorts of useful things. Indeed I was
>> on a Facetime meeting yesterday and missed some functionality of MS
>> Teams. (or Zoom for that matter).
>>
>> Where it all falls apart for such is how one would do deep integration
>> as Apple does when one has a Windows machine at work, a Linux machine at
>> home, and Android in their pocket... you can integrate, there is nothing
>> technical barring it ... but doing such across the span of many devices,
>> OS's, manufacturers (all pining to lock in customers to their products)
>> is not likely to be "seamless" or easy to maintain.
>
> Yes, I fully understand that and why you appreciate the "deep
> integration", "seamless", etc.. But hopefully you realize that also
> comes at a price / with limits, as this iMessage versus other IM
> platforms example shows. Yes, you can step outside the "ecosystem", but
> while you're in the ecosystem, there are limits, which people outside
> the ecosystem do not have. Bbut they do have other costs/limits. Nothing
> is perfect, nothing is 'better' ('Frank's law' at work) and all that
> jazz.

That "price/limits" doesn't (hasn't affected me at all...). People
outside the eco-system can certainly get data to me via various means
and v-v.

>
>>> Yes, we have a fair share of people who claim all kinds of (negative)
>>> things about products which they do not use, but most of us are not in
>>> that set of people. We just use stuff without getting all religious
>>> about it.
>>
>> Indeed - however - what the android "complainers and moaners" keep
>> missing about Apple's eco-sphere is the integration within the "club".
>> Thus the devices I use daily - a lot - Mac, iPhone, Watch and to a
>> lesser extent iPad are quite seamlessly integrated - iMessage is part of
>> that.
>
> I've a loved one who keeps me on the straight and narrow and vice
> versa. That helps both me and hir! But (s)he *does* use WhatsApp,
> after all, we both live in 'the real world'! :-)

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-09 11:13, Wally J wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote
>
>>> Why would I want to pay Ł2/month "entrance fee" to the walled garden,
>>> when we expect the gates to be opened (to some extent) next year?
>>
>> What walled garden? Apple devices roam wherever they like. No walls.
>>
>> OTOH, they have a superb eco-system between Apple devices that excludes
>> non Apple systems. iMessage service is one of them.
>
> Alan Browne is wrong. Dead wrong. He doesn't know how iOS works.
> He's never tried _not logging into the walled garden_ for example.
>
> I have.
>
> It is rather telling that this Apple iKook has absolutely no idea he's
> logging into _many_ different Apple servers every day of his entire life.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/7P7NCctS/locked-01.jpg> AppleID is locked by Apple

Showing an image of your AppleID being locked doesn't provide any
evidence that it was locked because you didn't log in.

>
> Where if you don't log in constantly, Apple _bricks_ the walled garden!
> <https://i.postimg.cc/4dHQQFfk/locked-02.jpg> Password was always good

Supra

>
> For example, here's the prompt when you don't log in daily to iMessages.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/rwyGPpV9/locked-05.jpg> iMessage walled garden

To use any messaging app, you need an ID. Otherwise, how can the
app/service direct messages to you?

>
> And, as another example, here's the prompt if you don't log into iCloud.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/rpmJKw7p/locked-04.jpg> iCloud walled garden

So don't log in. It's not a requirement.

>
> Worse... if you _refuse_ to log into the walled garden, Apple bricks the
> device in terms of making everything inside the walled garden lock up.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/vTdfLY2f/locked-03.jpg> Apple wants a gov license!!!

Your images don't support your assertion.

>
> And the only way to unbrick your own device, is to lose all your privacy
> because Apple requires you to present a government ID in person to get your
> own iPad back from them if you don't log into Apple servers every day of
> your life for the rest of your life.
>
> Ask me how I know this...

Based on previous history, I assume you're not telling the entire story.

On 2023-12-09 16:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-12-09 21:05, Wally J wrote:
>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>
>>>> Not at all.  Apple's system is not a walled garden.  More like an
>>>> exclusive country club where you get more but can also go anywhere off
>>>> of the club you want.
>>>
>>> The point is that *here* there are only 21% of iPhones, so those users
>>> have to get out of their walled garden to talk with the people, 80% of
>>> which are on Android. So, they don't use iMessages.
>>
>> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on
>> Android, and
>> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
>> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).
>>
>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>
> That is not so.
>
> Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third party
> tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient protocols
> like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many countries it is
> expensive, or is being phased out.

MMS has no additional cost here but may contribute to the user's monthly
bandwidth plan limit.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-09 15:22, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-12-09 19:47, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-09 10:03, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>> On 09.12.23 14:12, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-12-09 00:21, Your Name wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>>> 2. The reliable end-to-end-encryption and the associated trust in the
>>>>> provider Apple.
>>>>
>>>> Yes indeed - but there are other 'functions' within iMessage such as
>>>> being able to edit a sent text (that the receiver also sees), reply to
>>>> and have the reply connected to the specific individual message,
>>>> deleting messages (that are deleted on the receiver's phone), etc.
>>>
>>> WhatsApp can do most of that as well, with the possible exception of
>>> "and have the reply connected to the specific individual message", if
>>> that means threading (like is done in NetNews).
>>
>> I think I saw a reply to poster thing in WA.
>
> Yes, you can address a particular user in a group with "@<user>", but
> it is not threaded, i.e. your message is just at the bottom of the
> screen, not somewhere in the middle where <user>'s message is.

On iPhone if someone "replies" to an older message, then the original
message is replayed in grey/smaller font, and the reply goes below it.
Little "hook" graphic linking them

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-09 16:51, Alan wrote:

>
> Based on previous history, I assume you're not telling the entire story.

It also (being a troll) added the Mac group to the thread. Pls prune
those when you reply if you must feed it.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-09 15:19:52 +0000, Andy Burns said:

> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>> Tyrone wrote:
>>
>>> As expected, Apple has already killed this. Did anyone REALLY think Apple
>>> would permit this?
>>
>> Do have any reference/proof for this? (I didn't see any such thing in
>> the article, nor in the original Business Insider article.)
>
> <https://www.androidpolice.com/beeper-mini-outage-b/>
>
> <https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/08/apple-cuts-off-beeper-minis-access-after-launch-of-service-that-brought-imessage-to-android/>
>
>
>> So *what* exactly *did* Apple 'kill'?
>
> At a rough guess, Apple have initially blocked Beeper's IPs from their
> firewall?

The Beeper Mini developer is already working on a fix:

Beeper Mini developers say fix is 'coming soon'
for iMessage Android app

<https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/12/09/beeper-mini-developers-say-fix-is-coming-soon-for-imessage-android-app>

But as that articles says ...

"If Beeper Mini is fixed to work once more, it may face a
similar issue in the not-so-distant future. With Apple
keen to keep iMessage to only its own ecosystem of
devices, this may result in a security arms race between
the trillion-dollar iPhone maker and developers wanting
iMessage to work with Android."

so it may not work for long before being blocked again. Continually
being blocked would mean it's not really a viable solution to anything
at all, whether that's Android user's "blue bubble phobia" or "lack of
features".

On 2023-12-09 23:07, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-12-09 15:22, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-09 19:47, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-12-09 10:03, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>>> On 09.12.23 14:12, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-12-09 00:21, Your Name wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>>> 2. The reliable end-to-end-encryption and the associated trust in the
>>>>>> provider Apple.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes indeed - but there are other 'functions' within iMessage such as
>>>>> being able to edit a sent text (that the receiver also sees), reply to
>>>>> and have the reply connected to the specific individual message,
>>>>> deleting messages (that are deleted on the receiver's phone), etc.
>>>>
>>>>     WhatsApp can do most of that as well, with the possible
>>>> exception of
>>>> "and have the reply connected to the specific individual message", if
>>>> that means threading (like is done in NetNews).
>>>
>>> I think I saw a reply to poster thing in WA.
>>
>>    Yes, you can address a particular user in a group with "@<user>", but
>> it is not threaded, i.e. your message is just at the bottom of the
>> screen, not somewhere in the middle where <user>'s message is.
>
> On iPhone if someone "replies" to an older message, then the original
> message is replayed in grey/smaller font, and the reply goes below it.
> Little "hook" graphic linking them

Yes, WhatsApp does some something similar. You have to
tap-and-slide-right on the old message; it generates a tiny partial copy
of the old message linked to an edit box to type the new reply. If
recipient taps on the old link, the application automatically shows that
message in context. Can be a message, video, photo, map, document...
whatever.

I have heard of whatsapp supporting payments, but not ready yet; anytime
soon. Automatic message on arrival, no, but I have heard of the feature
on some app, I don't remember which. Maps, yes, we can send a location
with a tiny map that opens on tap. Or, we can send a map with the real
time location for a predefined number of hours. Send a document. Oh, new
one I just see: send a survey. No idea about this one.

I guess any feature can be replicated, it is just a question to design
it (just tell the engineers to do it), and assign the resources to it
(machines and money, I'd guess). And of course, estimate if it is going
to be worth it, revenue vs cost.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

>> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on Android, and
>> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
>> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).
>>
>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>
> That is not so.
>
> Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third party
> tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient protocols
> like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many countries it is
> expensive, or is being phased out.
>
> So yes, we do have problems and we do complain.

Hi Carlos,

I think I understood you but I don't think you understood me yet.
Maybe I am wrong though - so here's my always sensible logical path...

Look at it logically.
You complain about messaging, right? I don't. Right?
What's the difference?

*We're both on Android, right?*

I have absolutely zero issues communicating with iOS users.
You do.

*So the problem isn't Android.*

The problem (as I understand it) is you have to pay for MMS and I don't.

*But that has _nothing_ to do with Android.*

Nobody on Android is complaining because of Android.
You are complaining about the way you're billed for MMS.

That's different.
--
*Why are only some people having trouble with carrier messaging?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/6gFYKyubHy4>

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote

>>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>>
>> That is not so.
>>
>> Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third party
>> tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient protocols
>> like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many countries it is
>> expensive, or is being phased out.
>
> MMS has no additional cost here but may contribute to the user's monthly
> bandwidth plan limit.

I have no problems using carrier messaging even as many of my own family
members are on iOS. Yet others need messaging to be improved. Why?

What's the fundamental problem?

1. I am aware that due to the fee structure in many places in Europe,
WhatsApp & RCS is useful to circumvent imposed carrier costs.

But that, in and of itself, has _nothing_ per se to do with Android.

2. I am also aware that iOS users see colored bubbles, which, for some
rather strange reason, seems to bother them - but they're iOS users.

What's the problem on Android that needs to be solved in messaging?

There are two ways to look at that question, which are fundamental:
A. What's the problem when Android users interact with Android users?
B. What's the problem when Android users interact with iOS users?

If there's a problem, why don't I experience it interacting with both?

On this Sat, 9 Dec 2023 16:25:00 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:

> This is also why it is not a "walled garden" - by the way.

You are possibly the only person in the world who would say such a thing.
That alone should make you think why you think what nobody else would.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 00:21:45 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> I guess any feature can be replicated, it is just a question to design
> it (just tell the engineers to do it), and assign the resources to it
> (machines and money, I'd guess). And of course, estimate if it is going
> to be worth it, revenue vs cost.

Apple designs the walled garden on purpose, so it's not that simple.
Apple designs it to exclude people from outside the Apple community.

Your Name wrote on Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:50:20 +1300 :

> so it may not work for long before being blocked again.

The last thing Apple wants is iOS to communicate effectively with Android.

On 2023-12-10 04:44:53 +0000, Andrew said:
> Your Name wrote on Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:50:20 +1300 :
>>
>> so it may not work for long before being blocked again.
>
> The last thing Apple wants is iOS to communicate effectively with Android.

Apple doesn't really give a damn about Android.

The last thing *any* company wants is for some scum to be making money
off of them by stealing, not to mention breaking the terms and
conditions of any services that person has signed up for. If the fool
continues to fix Beeper Mini, Apple will no doubt bring out the lawyers
to sue them out of existence.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote

>> Based on previous history, I assume you're not telling the entire story.

I have Alan Baker & Snit blocked, so I didn't see this until Alan Browne's
post, which shows how deathly afraid these iKooks are of the basic facts.

They deny all facts about Apple simply because they don't like the facts.
No other reason.

They just don't like the facts.

I had never logged out.
And yet, Apple _constantly requires_ you to log into the walled garden.

That's just a fact.
It's a fact the iKooks hate.

But it's still a fact even as the iKooks hate all facts about Apple.

The simple assessment of that fact is that nothing in the walled garden
works for long if you don't constantly, repetitively & incessantly log into
the Apple walled-garden mothership tracking servers. That's just a fact.

These are facts which occurred when I upgraded to iOS 16.7.2 on my iPad.
<https://i.postimg.cc/9fPjQpr3/nag01.jpg> 3 iOS nag items
<https://i.postimg.cc/wxwgN0Fg/nag02.jpg> 2 iOS nag items
<https://i.postimg.cc/3NVqB4dC/nag03.jpg> 1 iOS nag item (permanent)

Bear in mind, I never logged out.

No other operating system is built with that mothership tracking required.
Yet, the iKooks are oblivious of the very fact that they're logging in!

So what do the iKooks do?
a. Do they test the statements by NOT logging into Apple servers?
b. Do they even _understand_ how to test the factual statemenets above?
c. Or, do all iKooks brazenly deny every fact about Apple they don't like

FACTS (bearing in mind I never logged out!):
<https://i.postimg.cc/7P7NCctS/locked-01.jpg> AppleID is locked by Apple
<https://i.postimg.cc/4dHQQFfk/locked-02.jpg> Password was always good
<https://i.postimg.cc/vTdfLY2f/locked-03.jpg> Apple wants a gov license!!!
<https://i.postimg.cc/rpmJKw7p/locked-04.jpg> Then, iCloud works again
<https://i.postimg.cc/rwyGPpV9/locked-05.jpg> Then, Messages works again
--
There's a reason it's called the walled garden.

On 2023-12-09 20:59, Wally J wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote
>
>>> Based on previous history, I assume you're not telling the entire story.
>
> I have Alan Baker & Snit blocked, so I didn't see this until Alan Browne's
> post, which shows how deathly afraid these iKooks are of the basic facts.
>
> They deny all facts about Apple simply because they don't like the facts.
> No other reason.
>
> They just don't like the facts.
>
> I had never logged out.
> And yet, Apple _constantly requires_ you to log into the walled garden.
>
> That's just a fact.

That's just an ASSERTION.

On 09.12.23 21:05, Wally J wrote:
> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on Android, and
> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).

Bullshit. In the US more than 50% of the installed base are iPhones.
Hence the discussion here which in most other regions of the world are
absolutely irrelevant.

> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.

Even more bullshit. Apple devices have their own software and systems.
Android not. That is the reason why Google tries to spread such an
inferior chat tool like RCS. The American market is the driving force
idiot. And stop try to spread FUD and lies.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

On 09.12.23 22:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-12-09 21:05, Wally J wrote:
>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>
>>>> Not at all.  Apple's system is not a walled garden.  More like an
>>>> exclusive country club where you get more but can also go anywhere off
>>>> of the club you want.
>>>
>>> The point is that *here* there are only 21% of iPhones, so those users
>>> have to get out of their walled garden to talk with the people, 80% of
>>> which are on Android. So, they don't use iMessages.
>>
>> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on Android, and
>> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
>> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).
>>
>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>
> That is not so.
>
> Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third party
> tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient protocols
> like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many countries it is
> expensive, or is being phased out.
>
> So yes, we do have problems and we do complain.

I think this is a fair statement. iPhone users do not complain.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

On 09.12.23 23:04, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-12-09 16:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-12-09 21:05, Wally J wrote:
>>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>
>>>>> Not at all.  Apple's system is not a walled garden.  More like an
>>>>> exclusive country club where you get more but can also go anywhere off
>>>>> of the club you want.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that *here* there are only 21% of iPhones, so those users
>>>> have to get out of their walled garden to talk with the people, 80% of
>>>> which are on Android. So, they don't use iMessages.
>>>
>>> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on
>>> Android, and
>>> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
>>> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).
>>>
>>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>>
>> That is not so.
>>
>> Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third party
>> tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient protocols
>> like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many countries it is
>> expensive, or is being phased out.
>
> MMS has no additional cost here but may contribute to the user's monthly
> bandwidth plan limit.

In advanced markets MMS does not exist anymore.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

On 10.12.23 05:49, Your Name wrote:
> On 2023-12-10 04:44:53 +0000, Andrew said:
>> Your Name wrote on Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:50:20 +1300 :
>>>
>>> so it may not work for long before being blocked again.
>>
>> The last thing Apple wants is iOS to communicate effectively with Android.
>
> Apple doesn't really give a damn about Android.
>
> The last thing *any* company wants is for some scum to be making money
> off of them by stealing, not to mention breaking the terms and
> conditions of any services that person has signed up for. If the fool
> continues to fix Beeper Mini, Apple will no doubt bring out the lawyers
> to sue them out of existence.

Fair statement.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

On 09.12.23 20:27, Wally J wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote
>
>> It's not about the colour of the bubbles - it's about the underlying
>> functionality of iMessage.
>
> *iMessage === WhatsApp*
> (works the same)

Your technical understanding is very limited.
These are two completely different protocols iMsg being far superior in
terms of security and especially privacy.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

On 2023-12-10 05:24, Wally J wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote

....

> What's the problem on Android that needs to be solved in messaging?
>
> There are two ways to look at that question, which are fundamental:
> A. What's the problem when Android users interact with Android users?
> B. What's the problem when Android users interact with iOS users?

For me, no photos or any multimedia content, just plain text, unless
they use WhatsApp.

>
> If there's a problem, why don't I experience it interacting with both?

You have free MMS. I don't.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-12-10 10:38, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 09.12.23 22:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-12-09 21:05, Wally J wrote:
>>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>
>>>>> Not at all.  Apple's system is not a walled garden.  More like an
>>>>> exclusive country club where you get more but can also go anywhere off
>>>>> of the club you want.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that *here* there are only 21% of iPhones, so those users
>>>> have to get out of their walled garden to talk with the people, 80% of
>>>> which are on Android. So, they don't use iMessages.
>>>
>>> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on Android, and
>>> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
>>> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).
>>>
>>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>>
>> That is not so.
>>
>> Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third party
>> tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient protocols
>> like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many countries it is
>> expensive, or is being phased out.
>>
>> So yes, we do have problems and we do complain.
>
> I think this is a fair statement. iPhone users do not complain.

Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and can
not send photos or multimedia, unless they ditch iMessages and switch to
WhatsApp.

It is the same issue in both directions.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-12-10 10:37, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 09.12.23 21:05, Wally J wrote:
>> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on Android, and
>> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
>> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).
>
> Bullshit. In the US more than 50% of the installed base are iPhones.
> Hence the discussion here which in most other regions of the world are
> absolutely irrelevant.

It is relevant for me, who don't live in the USA.

>
>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>
> Even more bullshit. Apple devices have their own software and systems.
> Android not. That is the reason why Google tries to spread such an
> inferior chat tool like RCS. The American market is the driving force
> idiot. And stop try to spread FUD and lies.

Bullshit. :-P

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-12-09 23:42, Patrick wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 00:21:45 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> I guess any feature can be replicated, it is just a question to design
>> it (just tell the engineers to do it), and assign the resources to it
>> (machines and money, I'd guess). And of course, estimate if it is
>> going to be worth it, revenue vs cost.
>
> Apple designs the walled garden on purpose, so it's not that simple.

It's not a walled garden at all.

> Apple designs it to exclude people from outside the Apple community.

Exactly. It's more of a country club - not a walled garden. Like in "a
real world" country club, club members get the full value of the outside
world plus the perqs inside the country club fence that are denied to
non members.

To gain access to the club, simply purchase Apple devices.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-09 23:44, Andrew wrote:
> Your Name wrote on Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:50:20 +1300 :
>
>> so it may not work for long before being blocked again.
>
> The last thing Apple wants is iOS to communicate effectively with Android.

iOS already communicates effectively with Android:

-phone (cell network)
-e-mail
-SMS
-MMS
-AirTag detection (malicious intent prevention).

and next year
-RCS

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.