On 2023-12-14 08:08, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 13.12.23 um 14:58 schrieb Alan Browne:
>> On 2023-12-13 07:16, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> On 10.12.23 14:26, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-10 04:38, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>> In advanced markets MMS does not exist anymore.
>>>>
>>>> You mean in overpriced telecoms markets like Europe.  MMS is still very
>>>> relevant when out of WiFi range and using the cellco for basic chat
>>>> with
>>>> images and video and not using a 3rd party app.
>>>
>>> *ROTFLSTC*
>>> The price level in underdeveloped markets like the US are almost double
>>> what they are in Europe or Asia.
>>
>> Then why do they charge so much for MMS in Europe?  Have to make up for
>> the cheap plans?
>
> There are no MMS anymore in Europe. At least in the majority of the
> markets. The quality and reliability of MMS is so inferior, that nobody
> used them anymore for years. Hence most providers stopped the serivce.

I just tested, and MMS is available in Movistar (Spain).

To test, I disabled RCS in phone #2. Then in phone #1 I tried to send a
message. It changed the display note to "SMS". I typed "Aa" then a big
smiley. Instantly, it said MMS. I did not hit send, it costs money.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote

>> I've tested it. You haven't.
>
> My iPhone SE that has been functioning perfectly without being signed
> into Apple's servers is living proof I *have* tested it.

Hi Jolly Roger,

Unless you're jailbroken perhaps... that is an absurd claim, even from you.

If you actually _believe_ you've never "signed into Apple's servers", then
it's going to be difficult to carry on any *adult conversation* with you.

Because... you audaciously claim...
*You've never even once sent or received a message on your Messages app?*
*You've never even once sent or received a FaceTime conversation?*
*You've never even once installed an app from Apple's App Store?*
*You've never even once experienced a default backup to the iCloud?*
*You've never even once upgraded your version or updated your subversion?*
*You've never even once posted or received iCloud mail from your iPhone?*
*You never (optionally) signed up for 2-factor authorization perhaps?*
etc.

No *adult* would claim what you just claimed on an iOS device, Jolly Roger.
Certainly no *adult* would believe it given that's how iOS is designed.

This is, for example, my nag screen when I recently updated to iOS
<https://i.postimg.cc/9fPjQpr3/nag01.jpg> 3 iOS 16.7.3 nag items
<https://i.postimg.cc/wxwgN0Fg/nag02.jpg> 2 iOS1 6.7.3 nag items
<https://i.postimg.cc/3NVqB4dC/nag03.jpg> 1 Update Apple ID settings

> Your crippled device is proof that you:
> 1. signed into Apple servers
> 2. forgot your credentials
> 3. got locked out of Apple services as a result of your stupidity
> 4. turned around and blamed Apple like the dip shit boomer you are
> 5. lied about it in order to troll the Apple newsgroups

First off, I know the credentials, so that strawman is remiss.

Second, it's not crippled so much as unilaterally bricked by Apple simply
for not constantly and repeatedly signing into Apple servers, Jolly Roger.

Which I did on purpose.
On three iPads.

Just to test what Apple would do.

Here's what Apple did recently when I proved to them by giving away my
privacy - because Apple required my government ID & proof of purchase, just
so that Apple would _unlock_ my Apple ID (whose password never changed).
<https://i.postimg.cc/7P7NCctS/locked-01.jpg> AppleID is locked by Apple
<https://i.postimg.cc/4dHQQFfk/locked-02.jpg> Password was always good
<https://i.postimg.cc/vTdfLY2f/locked-03.jpg> Apple wants a gov license!!!
<https://i.postimg.cc/rpmJKw7p/locked-04.jpg> Then, iCloud works again
<https://i.postimg.cc/rwyGPpV9/locked-05.jpg> Then, Messages works again

In summary, you _hate_ the fact that Apple forces users to constantly log
into Apple servers when no other operating system (maybe now with Windows
11) forces the users to constantly and repetitively log into those
mothership tracking servers - or - Apple will unilaterally lock your
account (which essentially unilaterally bricks your Apple device given most
functionality is inside the walled garden).

*You _hate_ that fact about Apple*, Jolly Roger.

But you hating all facts about Apple doesn't make those facts not facts.
--
It just means you hate what Apple does.

On 2023-12-15 02:11, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-12-12 02:04, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-12-11 17:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-11 19:29, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-11 11:08, Dave Royal wrote:
>>
>>>>> It is rumoured that Apple will enable RCS in their default message
>>>>> app in
>>>>
>>>> No rumour.  Apple have said they will.
>>>>
>>>>> 2024 (not replacing iMessage) which is to be welcomed IMO. No doubt
>>>>> people
>>>>> will continue to use proprietary apps and protocols when they want
>>>>> extra
>>>>> features - eg e2ee.
>>>>
>>>> It does E2E already in some instances.  But Apple is seeking a
>>>> non-3rd-party solution to E2E in RCS.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.techradar.com/phones/iphone/breaking-apple-will-support-rcs-in-2024
>>>
>>> I'd guess Apple is seeking a Non-Google solution to E2E in RCS. They
>>> are too late for that. :-D
>>
>> Why "too late"?
>>
>> "Apple says it won't be supporting any proprietary extensions that
>> seek to add encryption on top of RCS and hopes, instead, to work with
>> the GSM Association to add encryption to the standard."  techradar
>> link above.
>
> Half of the world is already using the Google implementation of RCS that
> includes E2E. If Apple wants their own implementation instead, they
> should have done that 5 or 10 years ago.

Google is Apple's bitch to the tune of $18B per year. They'll get in line.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-13 14:17, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-12-13 10:26, Dave Royal wrote:

>> Here in the UK there is keen competition on price, wide network coverage,
>> and it's easy to swap mobile supplier and port your phone number. The
>> standard competitive offering these days is a SIM-only rolling monthly
>> contract with unlimited voice calls and SMSs and varying amounts of data:
>> typicaly £10/month upwards but can be half that for small amounts of
>
> Amazing.  Here (Canada) an unlimited contract with a paltry 3 - 5 GB of
> data is on the order of $40+tax/month.  This would be a bring-your-own
> phone annual deal.   Actually I'm contract free at the moment.  So they
> bill me monthly.  I can walk at any moment and take my number with me.
> They're always "upselling" (more data for a small increase in fee).
>
>> data. To my knowledge MMSs are always extra - a quick google suggests
>> £0.5 per MMS is typical. Few people use them so there's no incentive to
>> include them and every incentive to charge a lot for them.

Oddly enough just got bumped up by an additional 30GB/month at no charge
going forward.

This was announced to me in two text messages. One being an ... MMS.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-15, Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote
>
>>> I've tested it. You haven't.
>>
>> My iPhone SE that has been functioning perfectly without being signed
>> into Apple's servers is living proof I *have* tested it.
>
> Hi Jolly Roger,
>
> Unless you're jailbroken

Nope, sorry. No jailbreak needed. Your ignorance is astounding. There is
no requirement to log into Apple servers on an iPhone. You willingly
signed in, "forgot" your own credentials, and bullheadedly refused to
fix the problem you caused, locking yourself out of your own device
(likely also willingly in order to roll your lame troll).

> If you actually _believe_ you've never "signed into Apple's servers"

The record shows I didn't make that idiotic claim. You have a real
problem with reading comprehension it seems. What I did say is true:
there is no requirement to log into Apple servers in order to use an
iPhone, and your "problem" was self-created by you logging into Apple
servers willingly, "forgetting" your credentials, and refusing to
rectify that self-imposed issue.

> it's going to be difficult to carry on any *adult conversation* with you.

You project like no other, Arlen.

>> Your crippled device is proof that you:
>> 1. signed into Apple servers
>> 2. forgot your credentials
>> 3. got locked out of Apple services as a result of your stupidity
>> 4. turned around and blamed Apple like the dip shit boomer you are
>> 5. lied about it in order to troll the Apple newsgroups
>
> First off, I know the credentials, so that strawman is remiss.

That's a lie. You are on record stating you used fake throw-away
credentials that you *couldn't* remember. And if you *did* know them,
you would have easily entered them.

> Second, it's not crippled so much as unilaterally bricked by Apple
> simply for not constantly and repeatedly signing into Apple servers

Nope, you locked yourself out by refusing to verify the credentials you
used to willingly sign in.

> Which I did on purpose.

Indeed, you fucked yourself on purpose in order to roll your lame troll.
You're a clown.

> On three iPads.

LOL... 🤣

> Just to test what Apple would do.

Just to troll.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-12-15, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-12-15 17:32, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2023-12-15, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-12 02:04, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-11 17:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd guess Apple is seeking a Non-Google solution to E2E in RCS. They
>>>>> are too late for that. :-D
>>>>
>>>> Why "too late"?
>>>>
>>>> "Apple says it won't be supporting any proprietary extensions that
>>>> seek to add encryption on top of RCS and hopes, instead, to work with
>>>> the GSM Association to add encryption to the standard."  techradar
>>>> link above.
>>>
>>> Half of the world is already using the Google implementation of RCS
>>> that includes E2E.
>>
>> Yeah, it's not like Google hasn't dropped numerous messaging services
>> before... oh, wait:
>>
>> <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-of-instability-the-history-of-google-messaging-apps/>
>>
>> And besides, the fact that "half of the world" (debatable) is using
>> Google's RCS encryption doesn't prove it's supposedly too late for Apple
>> to work with industry leaders to create an encryption standard for RCS.
>> It's never too late for that.
>
> What industry leaders would be those? :-D

The GSMA, for starters. :-D

Which industry leaders did Google work with for its slew of failed
messaging solutions, Big Brain?

>>> If Apple wants their own implementation
>>
>> You haven't been paying attention. Apple doesn't want their own
>> implementation - they want an industry standard implementation not
>> controlled by a single vendor (especially one that literally makes money
>> by tracking users, building fingerprints of them, and targeting them
>> with advertising and malware).
>
> Ok, fine, but are there any industry leaders left out doing RCS
> implementations? Samsung dropped out, they use the Google one instead.

That's their choice (key word: choice).

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-12-15 17:55, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
> Indeed, you fucked yourself on purpose in order to roll your lame troll.
> You're a clown.

That discredits some perfectly nice, upstanding clowns out there.

> Just to troll.

I suspect it's making the whole thing up.
It can't even do make-believe and not f it up.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-16, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2023-12-15 17:55, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>
>> Indeed, you fucked yourself on purpose in order to roll your lame troll.
>> You're a clown.
>
> That discredits some perfectly nice, upstanding clowns out there.

Good point. I'll clarify:

huge ass clown

>> Just to troll.
>
> I suspect it's making the whole thing up.
> It can't even do make-believe and not f it up.

Yep.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-12-16 01:15, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2023-12-15, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-12-15 17:32, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-15, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-12 02:04, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-12-11 17:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd guess Apple is seeking a Non-Google solution to E2E in RCS. They
>>>>>> are too late for that. :-D
>>>>>
>>>>> Why "too late"?
>>>>>
>>>>> "Apple says it won't be supporting any proprietary extensions that
>>>>> seek to add encryption on top of RCS and hopes, instead, to work with
>>>>> the GSM Association to add encryption to the standard."  techradar
>>>>> link above.
>>>>
>>>> Half of the world is already using the Google implementation of RCS
>>>> that includes E2E.
>>>
>>> Yeah, it's not like Google hasn't dropped numerous messaging services
>>> before... oh, wait:
>>>
>>> <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-of-instability-the-history-of-google-messaging-apps/>
>>>
>>> And besides, the fact that "half of the world" (debatable) is using
>>> Google's RCS encryption doesn't prove it's supposedly too late for Apple
>>> to work with industry leaders to create an encryption standard for RCS.
>>> It's never too late for that.
>>
>> What industry leaders would be those? :-D
>
> The GSMA, for starters. :-D

Really? What phones do they build? I have never seen that make.

>
> Which industry leaders did Google work with for its slew of failed
> messaging solutions, Big Brain?
>
>>>> If Apple wants their own implementation
>>>
>>> You haven't been paying attention. Apple doesn't want their own
>>> implementation - they want an industry standard implementation not
>>> controlled by a single vendor (especially one that literally makes money
>>> by tracking users, building fingerprints of them, and targeting them
>>> with advertising and malware).
>>
>> Ok, fine, but are there any industry leaders left out doing RCS
>> implementations? Samsung dropped out, they use the Google one instead.
>
> That's their choice (key word: choice).
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-12-16, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-12-16 01:15, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2023-12-15, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-15 17:32, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-15, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-12-12 02:04, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-12-11 17:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd guess Apple is seeking a Non-Google solution to E2E in RCS.
>>>>>>> They are too late for that. :-D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why "too late"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Apple says it won't be supporting any proprietary extensions
>>>>>> that seek to add encryption on top of RCS and hopes, instead, to
>>>>>> work with the GSM Association to add encryption to the
>>>>>> standard."  techradar link above.
>>>>>
>>>>> Half of the world is already using the Google implementation of
>>>>> RCS that includes E2E.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, it's not like Google hasn't dropped numerous messaging
>>>> services before... oh, wait:
>>>>
>>>> <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-of-instability-the-history-of-google-messaging-apps/>
>>>>
>>>> And besides, the fact that "half of the world" (debatable) is using
>>>> Google's RCS encryption doesn't prove it's supposedly too late for
>>>> Apple to work with industry leaders to create an encryption
>>>> standard for RCS. It's never too late for that.
>>>
>>> What industry leaders would be those? :-D
>>
>> The GSMA, for starters. :-D
>
> Really? What phones do they build? I have never seen that make.

Reading comprehension isn't your thing, I guess. Nowhere did I mention
phone builders. I'll go ahead and hold your hand through this since it's
apparent you need it: The GSM Association (GSMA: Global System for
Mobile Communications) is an industry organisation that represents the
interests of mobile network operators worldwide. More than 750 mobile
operators are full GSMA members and a further 400 companies in the
broader mobile ecosystem are associate members. Apple is on record
stating they intend to work with the GSMA to standardize RCS encryption.
That's it. Not a hard concept to understand. Hard to imagien why you are
having such a problem with it other than because you are just low-level
trolling.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote

>> Really? What phones do they build? I have never seen that make.
>
> Apple is on record
> stating they intend to work with the GSMA to standardize RCS encryption.
> That's it. Not a hard concept to understand. Hard to imagien why you are
> having such a problem with it other than because you are just low-level
> trolling.

Apple has one goal and one goal only - and it's NOT interoperability.

In fact, it wouldn't be surprising if Jolly Roger is completely utterly
clueless that Apple is widely known to be on public record (e.g., from the
deposed Epic emails) for saying they will never open up their ecosystem to
industry-standard messaging.

The LAST thing Apple wants is to interoperate with other operating systems.
--
There are very many good reasons it's called the walled garden after all.

Wally J wrote:

>Apple has one goal and one goal only - and it's NOT interoperability.
>
>In fact, it wouldn't be surprising if Jolly Roger is completely
>utterly clueless that Apple is widely known to be on public record
>(e.g., from the deposed Epic emails) for saying they will never open
>up their ecosystem to industry-standard messaging.
>
>The LAST thing Apple wants is to interoperate with other operating
>systems.

Sometimes plans change, either out of necessity or by coercion.

--
"Always and never are two words you should always remember never to
use." ~ Wendell Johnson

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote

> Google is Apple's bitch to the tune of $18B per year. They'll get in line.

It's interesting the iKooks lack any knowledge of who does what with whom.

Last we had checked, as I recall, each is the others' "bitch" (using your
terminology) in that Apple's biggest customer is Google & vice versa.
--
To Apple (& to Alan Browne) - interoperability is considered an "attack".
Message-ID: <LWEeN.18792$xHn7.13574@fx14.iad>

badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote

>>The LAST thing Apple wants is to interoperate with other operating
>>systems.
>
> Sometimes plans change, either out of necessity or by coercion.

Hi badgolferman,

I agree with you as I always agree with any sentient rational opinion.

I've noticed you haven't posted much lately, where I fully agree with you
that Apple had to change their plans due to the upcoming EU regulations.

Just as Apple only tells the truth when forced to in court, Apple only adds
interoperability when they see that otherwise they'll be forced to do it.

Knowing Apple, I suspect they'll implement (at the last possible minute)
the RCS "integration" in a way that barely meets the legal requirement.
--
We'll have to wait and see though... as Apple is rather clever indeed.

From the more-hoops-to-jump-through dept:
Next Beeper Mini Fix Requires Users To Have a Mac
<https://m.slashdot.org/story/422795>
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

On 2023-12-20 16:22, Dave Royal wrote:
> From the more-hoops-to-jump-through dept:
> Next Beeper Mini Fix Requires Users To Have a Mac
> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422795>

I for one will happily hire out my three Macs at home and a bunch at
work to anyone needing such access for $30 / month / user.

Home ISP is 400Mb/s, Work ISP is about 50 Mb/s.

I figure I can handle ~1000 users overall (wet finger in the wind
estimate per ISO-4074 method 2).

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-20 21:22:27 +0000, Dave Royal said:
>
> From the more-hoops-to-jump-through dept:
> Next Beeper Mini Fix Requires Users To Have a Mac
> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422795>

Anyone who believed it was going to last very long was a fool. The
idiot developers should think themselves lucky Apple hasn't sued them
into backruptcy.

Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote

>> From the more-hoops-to-jump-through dept:
>> Next Beeper Mini Fix Requires Users To Have a Mac
>> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422795>
>
> Anyone who believed it was going to last very long was a fool. The
> idiot developers should think themselves lucky Apple hasn't sued them
> into backruptcy.

It's true what both iKooks above have claimed is the case with Beeper.

They know the LAST thing Apple wants is interoperability between platforms.

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

> I just tested, and MMS is available in Movistar (Spain).
>
> To test, I disabled RCS in phone #2. Then in phone #1 I tried to send a
> message. It changed the display note to "SMS". I typed "Aa" then a big
> smiley. Instantly, it said MMS. I did not hit send, it costs money.

Thanks for running that test for the team, Carlos, as everyone pitches in
to provide the tribal knowledge of these combined Usenet newsgroups.

Here in the states, most of us (not all though) have unlimited free MMS so
we don't need RCS to send MMS via the Internet data on the phone plan.

Hence, we don't see as much value to RCS as you do - where the iPhone users
seem to complain a lot about bubble color which is another thing most of us
don't care about (as on Android, all users look the same to us, AFAICT).

Hence, for those few who are affected by MMS charges, it's good that you
ran those tests as we can't run them given we don't have the same issues.
--
Usenet is a wonderful way to meet smart people on both sides of the Pond.

On 12/20/2023 1:22 PM, Dave Royal wrote:
> From the more-hoops-to-jump-through dept:
> Next Beeper Mini Fix Requires Users To Have a Mac
> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422795>

AirMessage has long enabled iMessage on Android with the use of a Mac
and on the web. https://airmessage.org/

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

From the enough-is-enough dept:

Beeper Says It's Done Trying To Bring iMessage To Android
<https://m.slashdot.org/story/422871>

This was never going to work. Apparantly lots of people in the US paid
real money for this app!
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote

> Beeper Says It's Done Trying To Bring iMessage To Android
> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422871>

The LAST thing Apple wants is interoperability between platforms.

On 2023-12-21 19:59:51 +0000, Dave Royal said:
>
> From the enough-is-enough dept:
>
> Beeper Says It's Done Trying To Bring iMessage To Android
> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422871>

Not quite done. The previous version required you to use a Mac and the
"final" version can use a jailbroken iPhone ... in both cases, the Mac
/ iPhone is simply working as a midway server so the message gets sent
from Android to the Mac / iPhone, then the Apple device send a proper
iMessage.

An incredibly idiotic "solution" to a 'problem" almost nobody could
care less about.

> This was never going to work. Apparantly lots of people in the US paid
> real money for this app!

But we always knew Americans were stupid ... just lok at their gun
laws, refusal to wear seatbelt, electing Trump the Chump as President,
.... ;-)

On 2023-12-21 14:59, Dave Royal wrote:
> From the enough-is-enough dept:
>
> Beeper Says It's Done Trying To Bring iMessage To Android
> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422871>
>
> This was never going to work. Apparantly lots of people in the US paid
> real money for this app!

IIRC Beeper first extended the period on subscriptions due to the pushed
out performance. I expect they'll be refunding whoever paid.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

According to the New York Times, this dispute has attracted the attention
of the US Justice Department, the Federal Trade Commission, and the Senate
Judiciary subcommittee on antitrust:

Apple’s Newest Headache: An App That Upended Its Control Over Messaging

<https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/technology/apple-iphone-beeper-mini.html?unlocked_article_code=1.H00.i-Lc.z_aripkZQYXo&hpgrp=ar-abar&smid=url-share>

OTOH I read a few days ago that some 'US lawmakers' were complaining that
the EU was interfering in US tech companies by introducing burdensome
regulations:

<https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-lawmakers-urge-biden-probe-eu-targeting-tech-firms-letter-2023-12-18/>

--
(Remove numerics from email address)