On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 12:57:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Here, Thailand, I can't remember ever seeing a "urban" bike that had a
> top tube. Sure we have guys all dressed up in the shorts, shoes and
> jersey riding the multi speed bikes down the highway but a chap off to
> the market for the groceries? Always a "step through".

It's much easier to mount a step-through without losing control of the
groceries, but my last bike trip to a store was five miles each way,
and I hope, before spring, to ride to a grocery fifteen miles away.

So I ride a bike which I once accompanied from Albany, New York, to
Warsaw, Indiana. (Years later, the one I was riding lost a bushing in
the brake bridge, so we moved my components onto my spouse's frame.)

Thirty miles nowadays is equivalent to a hundred miles back then.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 17:40:23 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
> to sharpen a blade.

Rather a long time ago, I thought that I wasn't sharpening my pocket
knives correctly. I found a book called "Tools and their uses",
intended to teach raw ignorant city-feller army recruits the absolute
basics of hand tools. I eagerly turned to "pocket knives", and all it
said was that they should be sharpened when they need it.

So there must have been a time when everyone knew how to sharpen a
pocket knife.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 20:09:18 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/11/2022 7:37 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 17:40:23 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/11/2022 4:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:22:45 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/10/2022 10:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
>>>>>>>> that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
>>>>>>>> I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
>>>>>>>> One time use only (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
>>>>>>> subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
>>>>>>> and complete the first time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
>>>>>> the usual alternatives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>
>>>>> Overall they are not. But as with other procedures discussed
>>>>> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
>>>>> mostly a lost art.
>>>>
>>>> Multiple Carbs?.... Well, the training wheels I can understand but
>>>> multiple carbs? And then speeding down the sidewalk going Roarrrr,
>>>> Roarrrrr?
>>>>
>>>> Missus OMally will take a broom to you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
>>> to sharpen a blade.
>>
>> On the other hand I've got a friend, about 80 years old I'd imagine,
>> and sending e-mail is a task that he has his daughter help him with
>> (:-)
>>
>> But sharpening a knife or other edged device? Why, you just take them
>> to the knife sharpening shop, don't you (:-?)
>>
>
>Sad to say, I know grown men who throw away drill bits and
>buy a new one because they cannot sharpen one. I'm not
>making this up.

I certainly believe you. Years ago I was in the shop on a Sunday,
probably doing some "home job" and a bloke from the Fire Station
wandered in. He says he wonders if we have a bolt, a "fat thread"
bolt.

Well, I was at a bit of a loss over "fat threads" so I just wheeled
out the "scrap box" and told him to see if he could find one. He
scratched around for a while and came up with a bolt and says "yup,
this'll work" and I took a look.... a 3/8"- 16 bolt. Of course I told
the lads in the shop the story on Monday and for a while the term "fat
thread" and "skinny thread" were quite popular in the Machine shop
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 19:05:57 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 8:09:22 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/11/2022 7:37 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 17:40:23 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2/11/2022 4:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:22:45 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 2/10/2022 10:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
>> >>>>>>> that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
>> >>>>>>> I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
>> >>>>>>> One time use only (:-)
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
>> >>>>>> subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
>> >>>>>> and complete the first time.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
>> >>>>> the usual alternatives.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Overall they are not. But as with other procedures discussed
>> >>>> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
>> >>>> mostly a lost art.
>> >>>
>> >>> Multiple Carbs?.... Well, the training wheels I can understand but
>> >>> multiple carbs? And then speeding down the sidewalk going Roarrrr,
>> >>> Roarrrrr?
>> >>>
>> >>> Missus OMally will take a broom to you.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
>> >> to sharpen a blade.
>> >
>> > On the other hand I've got a friend, about 80 years old I'd imagine,
>> > and sending e-mail is a task that he has his daughter help him with
>> > (:-)
>> >
>> > But sharpening a knife or other edged device? Why, you just take them
>> > to the knife sharpening shop, don't you (:-?)
>> >
>> Sad to say, I know grown men who throw away drill bits and
>> buy a new one because they cannot sharpen one. I'm not
>> making this up.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>???????????????
>Well.......... Not that I throw away a drill bit. Even if it is super duper dull. I'd still keep it. But sharpening a drill bit, I've never done that. Never ever even really thought about it. I've heard about it. Thankfully, or unthankfully, my most used drill bits are the little ones. And I usually always break them before they become dull. Big bits you can actually sharpen aren't used by me too much. And I'm usually drilling wood so dulling isn't really an issue. With metal, dull bits would be obvious a lot quicker I imagine.

Back when I was an apprentice boy we had a drill sharpening machine so
I never learned the art until I was in the Air force and "cross
trained" into the Machine Shop where the Shop Chief (who by the way
had done his apprenticeship at Union Twist Drill Co.) made everyone
practice until they could do it. And it does take some practice (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 23:00:22 -0500, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 07:55:00 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> But Frank, based on the song Daisy Bell, which seems to date to 1892,
>> isn't the "girl" supposed to be "in the front"?
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Daisybell.jpg
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w98l2EFR6dE
>
>Reminds me of a story I wrote in the sixties. I wish I could read
>more of the series, but it's a very sixties story and I no longer
>remember enough to make it authentic.
>
>In one of the background details that never made it onto paper, a
>genetically-engineered girl and her foster mother escape on a
>custom-built tandem. The girl is eighteen, but appears to be ten at
>most, and is also destined to be shorter than average when mature. She
>is much stronger than her mother.
>
>So in picking the captain, which matters more: mass or muscle?
>
>Well, in writing that down for the first time I answered the question:
>they have always kept a low profile, and a kidback tandem would draw
>much less attention than a tandem that declares that the captain could
>bench-press a truck.
>
>But suppose that physics is all the matters: who is the captain?

Well... I might comment, from the viewpoint of some 50 years of
marriage, there must be a reason that some men refer to their wives as
"SWMBO" (:-)

And... to check my facts, I just went and asked my wife, "Wife! Who's
the boss in this family?" And she replied, "Well, of course you are
darling!", "Now get your dirty feet off that clean rug!". (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 5:38:08 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> >
> The rest of the world take our bike inside or, where that's
> not possible, shops elsewhere.
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/877/pumpkjul.jpg
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
Or we just move to the friendly, crime-free countryside. Ireland is super if expensive, Australia is great, New Zealand and Canada are a bit cold but likable, rural France and the South of France just back from the narrow coastal strip (but watch out for the shark-''craftsmen" preying on foreigners) are good if you can learn to speak French like a native (not necessarily of those parts -- I speak a pretty snooty kind of French, but nobody ever reacted to it except a butcher in Boulogne, where we shopped when we lived in the Forest of Devres at the other end of the France, who said, "Not many Englishmen can learn to speak 16th Arrondissement so naturally."), parts of Tuscany are still not too crowded, Portugal but not Spain which is full of angloyobs and loud Germans, parts of South America settled by Germans after WW2 are superbly ordered (try Paraguay).
>
Andre Jute
Pity Americans are so at odds with one another. America used to be a very agreeable place.
>

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 2:55:51 PM UTC, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Around here one of the most important things on a grocery bike is a large and strong lock.
>
I ride a bike the price of a very nice preloved BMW to the shops and leave it standing outside, tied to nothing, and it's always there when I come out of the shop. I don't even carry a lock on my bike.
>
The main contributor to my bike security is the stem, called the n'lock. You turn the key and that unlocks the stem from the steerer tube inside the head tube. The front wheel flops over, the bike appears broken and is in fact unrideable.
>
My original description and photos of the n'lock are at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3930.0
More, including current supplier link, here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14207.0
>
Andre Jute
A little, a very little thought will suffice. -- John Maynard Keynes
>

On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 1:22:49 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>
>...as with other procedures discussed
> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
> mostly a lost art.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
Wasn't much choice. You learned to work with multiple Webers and a stethoscope (all other carburetors being not as good or more complicated to set) or Kugelfischer fuel injection which was either on or off, hugely frustrating.. Anyone who could set three SU carbs wasn't just a genius, he was Superman.. -- AJ
>

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 2:15:14 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Right you are. A Corvair flat-six (auto or aero cam) is not
> a 'boxer'.
>
Seems like a lost cause splitting hairs over boxers and horizontally opposed engines.
>
> https://www.autoevolution.com/news/there-s-a-big-difference-between-a-boxer-and-flat-engine-85305.html
>
Are these guys for real? My first Porsche was a 356. That was a boxer and so were a whole string of 911's that followed the 356 and a VW Westphalia (a deluxe Kombivan) into which I fitted a turbo-boxer engine from a 911 my girlfriend trashed, which I kept at our German office as a fastmoving meeting room on the autobahn. Both flat engines and boxers were commonplace cars, too. I had a Citroen GS in which you could set 90mph averages from the Fens to Tuscany overnight if you didn't mind a bit of oil on the windshield, which I'd only bought as a spare parts car for a GS Rotary I acquired in a mistaken moment of technofreakery (it broke three times in a row before I reached the end of the dealer's street and he offered to give my money back) and which I kept to fill in when none of my three SMs were cooperating; I gave the GS to a cleaner at my college who ran errands for me and he still drove when I returned a decade later, and in Australia I drove a very lively Alfa-Sud, also c1200cc (Slow Johnny will look up its capacity for us), as a courtesy car, and returned it back only reluctantly. -- AJ

On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 4:00:38 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 5:40:28 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 2/11/2022 4:42 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:22:45 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 2/10/2022 10:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>> On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
> > >>>>> that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
> > >>>>> I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
> > >>>>> One time use only (:-)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
> > >>>> subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
> > >>>> and complete the first time.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
> > >>> the usual alternatives.
> > >>>
> > >>> - Frank Krygowski
> > >>>
> > >> Overall they are not. But as with other procedures discussed
> > >> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
> > >> mostly a lost art.
> > >
> > > Multiple Carbs?.... Well, the training wheels I can understand but
> > > multiple carbs? And then speeding down the sidewalk going Roarrrr,
> > > Roarrrrr?
> > >
> > > Missus OMally will take a broom to you.
> > >
> > You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
> > to sharpen a blade.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> Sharpen a blade? I am not under 30, but I know how to sharpen all the blades I interact with. Lawnmower, chisel, hand plane, wood turning. All need sharpening. I generally use white aluminum oxide grinding wheels (8"x1"), sandpaper on a belt sander (4"x24") and sandpaper on a disk (8") grits from 80 up to 600, whetstones, diamond stones, strops. Unfortunately it seems everything that needs sharpening needs a different method to get it optimally sharpened. Lawnmower blade gets the belt sander. Chisels and planes get the disk sander and stones and strops. Turning tools get the grinding wheels. I don't sharpen knives. But I'd probably start them on the disk and finish them on the stones and strop.

Exactly why do you feel the need to show that not only do you have a lack of elementary use of numbers but also a total inability to understand the written language?

On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 4:10:44 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 11:00:51 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 8:20:26 AM UTC-8, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 10:51:17 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 8:53:15 PM UTC-8, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
> > > > > > > that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
> > > > > > > I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
> > > > > > > One time use only (:-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
> > > > > > subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
> > > > > > and complete the first time.
> > > > > I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
> > > > > the usual alternatives.
> > > > So you take an example of Andrew saying that was a workable solution (which was also very cheap) and tell us he said that it was BETTER than newer splined and expensive solutions? You never cease to amaze.
> > > No, Tom, that's not at ALL what I said. Sheesh!
> > >
> > > If your wife won't talk to you, is there some neighborhood kid who can help you understand
> > > what you read?
> > >
> > > If you can't afford to hire that help, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be willing to
> > > chip in. Just let us know.
> > Frank you don't even know what you said. You're the one who should ask your wife to explain to you what you write. Andrew never said nor hinted that tapered pin cranks were better than the modern alternative. He said that they were useable. So why did you ignorantly write "I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than the usual alternatives." Or is your use of English so poor that you don't even understand that?
> Tommy, just to explain things to you, not that it will do any good, but you are the one who talked about modern methods of attaching the crank arms and bottom bracket. YOU, YOu, You, you. Frank compared the hammer in pin method to other methods used at the same time the hammer in pin method was used. He questioned whether the hammer in pin method was better than other 1940s, 1950s methods of attaching crank arms to bottom brackets. I have seen pictures as depicted in the link prior in this thread, but I am unaware of how they worked or what else was being used at the time. I consider it irrelevant today. Kind of like how ancient matchlock rifles worked. Or even how flintlock rifles worked. Not relevant to today. YOU are the one who added in the pointless controversy of comparing hammer in cotter pins to modern, current ways of attaching cranks to bottom brackets. You, you, you.

Frank did nothing of the kind. Perhaps since you've seen "pictures" you'd like to tell us what the crank attachment methods were in the 40's?

On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 6:09:22 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/11/2022 7:37 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 17:40:23 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/11/2022 4:42 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:22:45 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2/10/2022 10:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
> >>>>>>> that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
> >>>>>>> I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
> >>>>>>> One time use only (:-)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
> >>>>>> subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
> >>>>>> and complete the first time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
> >>>>> the usual alternatives.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>
> >>>> Overall they are not. But as with other procedures discussed
> >>>> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
> >>>> mostly a lost art.
> >>>
> >>> Multiple Carbs?.... Well, the training wheels I can understand but
> >>> multiple carbs? And then speeding down the sidewalk going Roarrrr,
> >>> Roarrrrr?
> >>>
> >>> Missus OMally will take a broom to you.
> >>>
> >>
> >> You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
> >> to sharpen a blade.
> >
> > On the other hand I've got a friend, about 80 years old I'd imagine,
> > and sending e-mail is a task that he has his daughter help him with
> > (:-)
> >
> > But sharpening a knife or other edged device? Why, you just take them
> > to the knife sharpening shop, don't you (:-?)
> >
> Sad to say, I know grown men who throw away drill bits and
> buy a new one because they cannot sharpen one. I'm not
> making this up.

This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.

On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-8, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 17:40:23 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
> > to sharpen a blade.
> Rather a long time ago, I thought that I wasn't sharpening my pocket
> knives correctly. I found a book called "Tools and their uses",
> intended to teach raw ignorant city-feller army recruits the absolute
> basics of hand tools. I eagerly turned to "pocket knives", and all it
> said was that they should be sharpened when they need it.
>
> So there must have been a time when everyone knew how to sharpen a
> pocket knife.

As an example of how things are now - I've been in machine shops where they don't even know what a whet stone is.

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 6:47:25 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 2:15:14 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> >
> > Right you are. A Corvair flat-six (auto or aero cam) is not
> > a 'boxer'.
> >
> Seems like a lost cause splitting hairs over boxers and horizontally opposed engines.
> >
> > https://www.autoevolution.com/news/there-s-a-big-difference-between-a-boxer-and-flat-engine-85305.html
> >
> Are these guys for real? My first Porsche was a 356. That was a boxer and so were a whole string of 911's that followed the 356 and a VW Westphalia (a deluxe Kombivan) into which I fitted a turbo-boxer engine from a 911 my girlfriend trashed, which I kept at our German office as a fastmoving meeting room on the autobahn. Both flat engines and boxers were commonplace cars, too. I had a Citroen GS in which you could set 90mph averages from the Fens to Tuscany overnight if you didn't mind a bit of oil on the windshield, which I'd only bought as a spare parts car for a GS Rotary I acquired in a mistaken moment of technofreakery (it broke three times in a row before I reached the end of the dealer's street and he offered to give my money back) and which I kept to fill in when none of my three SMs were cooperating; I gave the GS to a cleaner at my college who ran errands for me and he still drove when I returned a decade later, and in Australia I drove a very lively Alfa-Sud, also c1200cc (Slow Johnny will look up its capacity for us), as a courtesy car, and returned it back only reluctantly. -- AJ

Seems as how his entire usefulness here is using Google and telling me I don't know what I'm talking about because he can't find any Google references..

On 2/11/2022 11:00 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
>
> But suppose that physics is all the matters: who is the captain?

And while we're on the subject of tandems, captains and stokers, here's
one of my favorite poems:

SHOVELIN' COAL

There are those who think the tandem is the instrument sublime
For the serious cycle-tourist, and the man concerned with time.
It has drive and rolls much faster as it gobbles up the track,
But it's quite another matter to the guy who sits in back...shovelin'
coal.

But just look at the advantages with twice the power at hand,
And half the wind resistance as it travels o'er the land.
The weight is less than double. This alone gives peace of mind.
But it's still another matter to the guy who sits behind...shovelin'
coal.

Yes, the man up front is master. It is he who shifts the gears.
He decides when brakes are needed, and on top of this he steers.
He can go the wrong direction and wind up in Timbuktu;
But refuses any protest from the guy who's number two...shovelin' coal.

It's just like a locomotive, with the front man engineer,
He sits back and shouts instructions to the fireman in the rear.
It's the way to run a railroad. With a bike it's not so sweet
To the sweating, swearing fellow on the secondary seat...shovelin' coal.

True, the pilots work the throttles while their partners work the flaps.
They are barely more than slaves -- a society of saps.
Co-pilots do the labor. They are not supposed to feel.
It's likewise with the suckers above the rearward wheel...shovelin'
coal.

His view ahead is blank and to peek would be a sin;
So he can't see where he's going -- only places where he's been.
He would love to lean to starboard when to port they make a turn,
But such pleasure is verboten to the fellow in the stern...shovelin'
coal.

Yet there will be retribution on some future day in hell,
When all tandem frames have melted, and the tandem leaders yell.
In agony they writhe, and some mercy they request;
But the back men just keep doing the thing they've done the
best...shovelin' coal.

Tony Pranses

------------------------

More bike poetry is at
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/NewsAndViews/BikePoetry.htm

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/12/2022 7:55 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 1:22:49 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> >
>> ...as with other procedures discussed
>> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
>> mostly a lost art.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
> Wasn't much choice. You learned to work with multiple Webers and a stethoscope (all other carburetors being not as good or more complicated to set) or Kugelfischer fuel injection which was either on or off, hugely frustrating. Anyone who could set three SU carbs wasn't just a genius, he was Superman. -- AJ
>>

Not that difficult. There used to be a Trident in every
neighborhood.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/12/2022 9:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 6:09:22 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/11/2022 7:37 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 17:40:23 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/11/2022 4:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:22:45 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 10:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
>>>>>>>>> that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
>>>>>>>>> I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
>>>>>>>>> One time use only (:-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
>>>>>>>> subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
>>>>>>>> and complete the first time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
>>>>>>> the usual alternatives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overall they are not. But as with other procedures discussed
>>>>>> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
>>>>>> mostly a lost art.
>>>>>
>>>>> Multiple Carbs?.... Well, the training wheels I can understand but
>>>>> multiple carbs? And then speeding down the sidewalk going Roarrrr,
>>>>> Roarrrrr?
>>>>>
>>>>> Missus OMally will take a broom to you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
>>>> to sharpen a blade.
>>>
>>> On the other hand I've got a friend, about 80 years old I'd imagine,
>>> and sending e-mail is a task that he has his daughter help him with
>>> (:-)
>>>
>>> But sharpening a knife or other edged device? Why, you just take them
>>> to the knife sharpening shop, don't you (:-?)
>>>
>> Sad to say, I know grown men who throw away drill bits and
>> buy a new one because they cannot sharpen one. I'm not
>> making this up.
>
> This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
>

Drill rod materials have never been better or more
consistent and material choice is broad and cheap. Besides
which we have TiN and CrN coatings. Of all the things to
bitch about in the modern world ( and I do!) this is not one
of them.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 06:59:32 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 4:00:38 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 5:40:28 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 2/11/2022 4:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > > On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:22:45 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On 2/10/2022 10:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >>> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >>>> On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
>> > >>>>> that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
>> > >>>>> I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
>> > >>>>> One time use only (:-)
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>> Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
>> > >>>> subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
>> > >>>> and complete the first time.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
>> > >>> the usual alternatives.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> - Frank Krygowski
>> > >>>
>> > >> Overall they are not. But as with other procedures discussed
>> > >> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
>> > >> mostly a lost art.
>> > >
>> > > Multiple Carbs?.... Well, the training wheels I can understand but
>> > > multiple carbs? And then speeding down the sidewalk going Roarrrr,
>> > > Roarrrrr?
>> > >
>> > > Missus OMally will take a broom to you.
>> > >
>> > You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
>> > to sharpen a blade.
>> > --
>> > Andrew Muzi
>> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> Sharpen a blade? I am not under 30, but I know how to sharpen all the blades I interact with. Lawnmower, chisel, hand plane, wood turning. All need sharpening. I generally use white aluminum oxide grinding wheels (8"x1"), sandpaper on a belt sander (4"x24") and sandpaper on a disk (8") grits from 80 up to 600, whetstones, diamond stones, strops. Unfortunately it seems everything that needs sharpening needs a different method to get it optimally sharpened. Lawnmower blade gets the belt sander. Chisels and planes get the disk sander and stones and strops. Turning tools get the grinding wheels. I don't sharpen knives. But I'd probably start them on the disk and finish them on the stones and strop.
>
>Exactly why do you feel the need to show that not only do you have a lack of elementary use of numbers but also a total inability to understand the written language?

One bloke says, "Ask anyone under 30 to sharpen a blade"

Another bloke says, "I am not under 30, but I know how to sharpen
blades"

And then tommy says, "you have a lack of elementary use of numbers but
also a total inability to understand the written language.

Tell us Tommy. Are you insane? Or just stupid?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:01:28 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 4:10:44 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 11:00:51 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 8:20:26 AM UTC-8, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 10:51:17 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 8:53:15 PM UTC-8, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > > > > On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
>> > > > > > > that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
>> > > > > > > I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
>> > > > > > > One time use only (:-)
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
>> > > > > > subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
>> > > > > > and complete the first time.
>> > > > > I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
>> > > > > the usual alternatives.
>> > > > So you take an example of Andrew saying that was a workable solution (which was also very cheap) and tell us he said that it was BETTER than newer splined and expensive solutions? You never cease to amaze.
>> > > No, Tom, that's not at ALL what I said. Sheesh!
>> > >
>> > > If your wife won't talk to you, is there some neighborhood kid who can help you understand
>> > > what you read?
>> > >
>> > > If you can't afford to hire that help, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be willing to
>> > > chip in. Just let us know.
>> > Frank you don't even know what you said. You're the one who should ask your wife to explain to you what you write. Andrew never said nor hinted that tapered pin cranks were better than the modern alternative. He said that they were useable. So why did you ignorantly write "I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than the usual alternatives." Or is your use of English so poor that you don't even understand that?
>> Tommy, just to explain things to you, not that it will do any good, but you are the one who talked about modern methods of attaching the crank arms and bottom bracket. YOU, YOu, You, you. Frank compared the hammer in pin method to other methods used at the same time the hammer in pin method was used. He questioned whether the hammer in pin method was better than other 1940s, 1950s methods of attaching crank arms to bottom brackets. I have seen pictures as depicted in the link prior in this thread, but I am unaware of how they worked or what else was being used at the time. I consider it irrelevant today. Kind of like how ancient matchlock rifles worked. Or even how flintlock rifles worked. Not relevant to today. YOU are the one who added in the pointless controversy of comparing hammer in cotter pins to modern, current ways of attaching cranks to bottom brackets. You, you, you.
>
>Frank did nothing of the kind. Perhaps since you've seen "pictures" you'd like to tell us what the crank attachment methods were in the 40's?

And thus speaks the expert... who wasn't even born in 1940.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/12/2022 7:55 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 1:22:49 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > >
> >> ...as with other procedures discussed
> >> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
> >> mostly a lost art.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>
> > Wasn't much choice. You learned to work with multiple Webers and a stethoscope (all other carburetors being not as good or more complicated to set) or Kugelfischer fuel injection which was either on or off, hugely frustrating. Anyone who could set three SU carbs wasn't just a genius, he was Superman. -- AJ
> >>
> Not that difficult. There used to be a Trident in every
> neighborhood.

I still have the synchronizers in my desk right now. They aren't good for anything since everyone had to have a set to use every couple of months or so. So they're as common as pork chops.

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
> As usual, 100.0% wrong.
>
> It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
> for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
> bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
> probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
> They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
> bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
>
> You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> break if abused.
> <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
> Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
> sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
> about sharpening the bit.
>
> Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
> <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
> <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
> M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
> which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
> "high carbon steel".
>
> Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
> are distinguished by their crystal structure.
> "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
> <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
> M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
> do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
>
> There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
> generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
> to fame is the low price. For example:
> <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
> These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
> through metal.

Jeff, you don't know one damn thing about quality. Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 6:09:22 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/11/2022 7:37 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 17:40:23 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2/11/2022 4:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:22:45 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 2/10/2022 10:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
>> >>>>>>> that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
>> >>>>>>> I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
>> >>>>>>> One time use only (:-)
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
>> >>>>>> subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
>> >>>>>> and complete the first time.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
>> >>>>> the usual alternatives.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Overall they are not. But as with other procedures discussed
>> >>>> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
>> >>>> mostly a lost art.
>> >>>
>> >>> Multiple Carbs?.... Well, the training wheels I can understand but
>> >>> multiple carbs? And then speeding down the sidewalk going Roarrrr,
>> >>> Roarrrrr?
>> >>>
>> >>> Missus OMally will take a broom to you.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
>> >> to sharpen a blade.
>> >
>> > On the other hand I've got a friend, about 80 years old I'd imagine,
>> > and sending e-mail is a task that he has his daughter help him with
>> > (:-)
>> >
>> > But sharpening a knife or other edged device? Why, you just take them
>> > to the knife sharpening shop, don't you (:-?)
>> >
>> Sad to say, I know grown men who throw away drill bits and
>> buy a new one because they cannot sharpen one. I'm not
>> making this up.
>
>This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.

Tommy, you apparently suffer from some sort of terminal stupidity as I
buy "high speed steel" drill bits from just about any shop that I
patronize - Home Pro, for an example that is available in the U.S.

And before you get all wound up, no "high speed Steel" is not "high
carbon steel".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 12:20:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
>
>As usual, 100.0% wrong.
>
>It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
>for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
>bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
>probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
>They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
>bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
>
>You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>break if abused.
><https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
>Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
>sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
>about sharpening the bit.
>
>Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
><https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
><https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
>M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
>which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
>"high carbon steel".
>
>Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
>are distinguished by their crystal structure.
>"Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
><https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
>M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
>do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
>
>There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
>generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
>to fame is the low price. For example:
><https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
>These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
>through metal.

While I know that you are generalizing I would quibble with a couple
of statements. Cast iron, at least the commonly used term, refers to a
rather soft material, 150-200BH (Brinell hardness) to as high as
210-260 BH.
see http://www.iron-foundry.com/castings-hardness.html
And "High Speed Steel" does, or did, refer to a material commonly used
in steel cutting tools - drills, machine tool "bits", etc.
https://www.griggssteel.com/what-is-high-speed-steel/
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 8:59:35 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 4:00:38 PM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 5:40:28 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 2/11/2022 4:42 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:22:45 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On 2/10/2022 10:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 6:16:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>> On 2/10/2022 7:51 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Pressed steel crank pins? do you mean those flat sided tapered pins
> > > >>>>> that you drove in with a hammer and then tightened the retaining nut?
> > > >>>>> I never had one come loose but hammering them out usually ruined them.
> > > >>>>> One time use only (:-)
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> Doing that job consistently well is an art (with many
> > > >>>> subtleties). Unlike the home amateur, I have to be correct
> > > >>>> and complete the first time.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim those cotter pins were better than
> > > >>> the usual alternatives.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> - Frank Krygowski
> > > >>>
> > > >> Overall they are not. But as with other procedures discussed
> > > >> in the thread (and synchronizing multiple carburetors) it's
> > > >> mostly a lost art.
> > > >
> > > > Multiple Carbs?.... Well, the training wheels I can understand but
> > > > multiple carbs? And then speeding down the sidewalk going Roarrrr,
> > > > Roarrrrr?
> > > >
> > > > Missus OMally will take a broom to you.
> > > >
> > > You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
> > > to sharpen a blade.
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > Sharpen a blade? I am not under 30, but I know how to sharpen all the blades I interact with. Lawnmower, chisel, hand plane, wood turning. All need sharpening. I generally use white aluminum oxide grinding wheels (8"x1"), sandpaper on a belt sander (4"x24") and sandpaper on a disk (8") grits from 80 up to 600, whetstones, diamond stones, strops. Unfortunately it seems everything that needs sharpening needs a different method to get it optimally sharpened. Lawnmower blade gets the belt sander. Chisels and planes get the disk sander and stones and strops. Turning tools get the grinding wheels. I don't sharpen knives. But I'd probably start them on the disk and finish them on the stones and strop.
> Exactly why do you feel the need to show that not only do you have a lack of elementary use of numbers but also a total inability to understand the written language?

???????? And why did you write this response? In my post above the only numbers I use are to describe the grits and sizes of grinding wheel stones and sand paper belts. I think I wrote in fairly simple to understand sentences too. So your post is related to what?

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 2:20:27 PM UTC-6, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
> As usual, 100.0% wrong.
>
> It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
> for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
> bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
> probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
> They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
> bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
>
> You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> break if abused.
> <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
> Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
> sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
> about sharpening the bit.
>
> Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
> <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
> <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
> M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
> which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
> "high carbon steel".
>
> Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
> are distinguished by their crystal structure.
> "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
> <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
> M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
> do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
>
> There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
> generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
> to fame is the low price. For example:
> <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
> These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
> through metal.

Until fairly recently, HSS High Speed Steel was the gold standard for woodturning tools. Far superior to carbon steel tools. HSS holds an edge fairly well when turning wood. But these tools are fairly expensive. Especially if buying name brand tools. But now days there are even more expensive and supposedly better alloys used in turning tools. I'm not sure what the alloy mixture is, but its better than HSS for holding a sharp edge for longer in wood.

>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558