On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 5:50:46 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
> > As usual, 100.0% wrong.
> >
> > It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
> > for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
> > bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
> > probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
> > They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
> > bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
> >
> > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> > break if abused.
> > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
> > Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
> > sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
> > about sharpening the bit.
> >
> > Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
> > <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
> > <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
> > M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
> > which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
> > "high carbon steel".
> >
> > Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
> > are distinguished by their crystal structure.
> > "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
> > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
> > M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
> > do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
> >
> > There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
> > generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
> > to fame is the low price. For example:
> > <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
> > These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
> > through metal.
> Jeff, you don't know one damn thing about quality. Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?

His knowledge in that area is orders of magnitude greater than yours - Even Andrew pointed out your mistake.
"Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting people like Flunky and all of his close friends at the gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 4:16:20 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 5:50:46 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
> > > As usual, 100.0% wrong.
> > >
> > > It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
> > > for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
> > > bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
> > > probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
> > > They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
> > > bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
> > >
> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> > > break if abused.
> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
> > > Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
> > > sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
> > > about sharpening the bit.
> > >
> > > Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
> > > <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
> > > <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
> > > M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
> > > which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
> > > "high carbon steel".
> > >
> > > Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
> > > are distinguished by their crystal structure.
> > > "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
> > > M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
> > > do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
> > >
> > > There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
> > > generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
> > > to fame is the low price. For example:
> > > <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
> > > These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
> > > through metal.
> > Jeff, you don't know one damn thing about quality. Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?
>
> His knowledge in that area is orders of magnitude greater than yours - Even Andrew pointed out your mistake.
> "Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting people like Flunky and all of his close friends at the gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich

Hey, pinhead, I'm still waiting for your explanation of how I misinterpreted the CDC page I cited. Seems like you know nothing and are anxious to demonstrate it.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 04:16:18 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 5:50:46 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
>> > As usual, 100.0% wrong.
>> >
>> > It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
>> > for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
>> > bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
>> > probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
>> > They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
>> > bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
>> >
>> > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>> > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>> > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>> > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>> > break if abused.
>> > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
>> > Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
>> > sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
>> > about sharpening the bit.
>> >
>> > Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
>> > <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
>> > <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
>> > M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
>> > which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
>> > "high carbon steel".
>> >
>> > Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
>> > are distinguished by their crystal structure.
>> > "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
>> > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
>> > M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
>> > do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
>> >
>> > There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
>> > generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
>> > to fame is the low price. For example:
>> > <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
>> > These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
>> > through metal.
>> Jeff, you don't know one damn thing about quality. Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?
>
>His knowledge in that area is orders of magnitude greater than yours - Even Andrew pointed out your mistake.
>"Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting people like Flunky and all of his close friends at the gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich

Ah but tommy lives in a dream world where he and only he is king of
all he surveys. The richest, the most clever, and certainly the one
who knows all and see's all."

Unfortunately, as Mark Twain once noted, to be a great liar it takes
an individual with a really good memory to remember all the tails he
has told and poor old tommy just doesn't qualify. He's told us of his
great wealth while complaining of the cost of groceries. Of his vast
knowledge while proving time after time that he, in fact, knows very
little. He tells us of his famous Resume while Jeff is demonstrating
that many, perhaps even most, of the entries are if not false are
highly exaggerated.

And even his threats lack luster. A nearly 80 year old man, bald
headed and sickly threatens grave bodily harm? Really?

And as for his insults? Well he used certain terms he considers
insulting. Originally he felt "communist" was sufficiently insulting
until I questioned him as to the meaning of the word and he failed to
explain what a communist is/was and not he has deleted the communist
threats and now uses :"Queer" as an insult. One can only ponder as to
whether he knows the meaning?,

So, here we have the Walter Mitty of RBT living a dream while in real
life a failure.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 09:04:15 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 4:16:20 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 5:50:46 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
>> > > As usual, 100.0% wrong.
>> > >
>> > > It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
>> > > for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
>> > > bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
>> > > probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
>> > > They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
>> > > bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
>> > >
>> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>> > > break if abused.
>> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
>> > > Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
>> > > sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
>> > > about sharpening the bit.
>> > >
>> > > Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
>> > > <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
>> > > <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
>> > > M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
>> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
>> > > which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
>> > > "high carbon steel".
>> > >
>> > > Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
>> > > are distinguished by their crystal structure.
>> > > "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
>> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
>> > > M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
>> > > do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
>> > >
>> > > There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
>> > > generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
>> > > to fame is the low price. For example:
>> > > <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
>> > > These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
>> > > through metal.
>> > Jeff, you don't know one damn thing about quality. Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?
>>
>> His knowledge in that area is orders of magnitude greater than yours - Even Andrew pointed out your mistake.
>> "Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting people like Flunky and all of his close friends at the gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich
>
>Hey, pinhead, I'm still waiting for your explanation of how I misinterpreted the CDC page I cited. Seems like you know nothing and are anxious to demonstrate it.

Why are you talking about the CDC when the subject is drill bits?
Does the CDC manage drill bits now?
Do you think the CDC manages drill bits?
Are you crazy?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 16:59:24 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 06:22:55 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 12:20:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
>>>
>>>As usual, 100.0% wrong.
>>>
>>>It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
>>>for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
>>>bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
>>>probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
>>>They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
>>>bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
>>>
>>>You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>>>drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>>>looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>>>cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>>>break if abused.
>>><https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
>>>Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
>>>sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
>>>about sharpening the bit.
>>>
>>>Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
>>><https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
>>><https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
>>>M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
>>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
>>>which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
>>>"high carbon steel".
>>>
>>>Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
>>>are distinguished by their crystal structure.
>>>"Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
>>><https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
>>>M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
>>>do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
>>>
>>>There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
>>>generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
>>>to fame is the low price. For example:
>>><https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
>>>These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
>>>through metal.
>
>>While I know that you are generalizing I would quibble with a couple
>>of statements.
>
>Sorry for the delay. I wanted to do some reading and ask a friend a
>few questions about these quibbles.
>
>>Cast iron, at least the commonly used term, refers to a
>>rather soft material, 150-200BH (Brinell hardness) to as high as
>>210-260 BH.
>>see http://www.iron-foundry.com/castings-hardness.html
>
>When I mentioned cast iron in my previous rant, it was in reference to
>using M35 cobalt drill bits to drill holes in cast iron:
> "M35 Bits made for drilling titanium, cast iron, and
> stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to break if abused."
>My main point was that there are specialty drill bits, with odd point
>angles considered to be best for drilling cast iron. I couldn't find
>any drill bits made from cast iron.
>
>"How to Drill Into Cast Iron"
><https://www.hunker.com/13403041/how-to-drill-into-cast-iron>
>
>I'm partial to using Rockwell hardness numbers, not Brinell, mostly
>because most of the metals I've dealt with use Rockwell.
><http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=6291a24572754cae94ff365ed99b96f9&ckck=1>
> Metric English Comments
>Hardness, Rockwell B
> 40.0 - 800 40.0 - 800 Average value: 311
>Hardness, Rockwell C
> 11.4 - 65.0 11.4 - 65.0 Average value: 30.9
>
>Also, the numbers you supplied for the hardness of cast iron seem to
>be for the products made by the Dandong Foundry. The range of
>hardness for different cast iron formulations can vary from 130HB
>(mallable iron) to 550HB (Nickel hardened).
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_iron#Table_of_comparative_qualities_of_cast_irons>
>For comparison, hardened tool steel is 600 to 900HB
>
>Of course, there's a catch. Some formulations of cast iron, with
>fairly high carbon content, contain tiny carbon "flakes" which are
>very soft. These "flakes" give the cast iron the consistency and
>strength of a sponge. The iron might be fairly hard, but the material
>will fracture if put under tension or shear stresses. The ability to
>control or eliminate these carbon flakes is why cast iron has a rather
>wide range of Rockwell C hardness (11.4 to 65.0). That is one reason
>why increasing the carbon content increases the hardness, where cast
>iron becomes harder and stronger, but also brittle and not so tough.
>Meanwhile, steel is not as hard and strong, but it is tougher.
>
>"What Is the Difference Between Cast Iron And Steel?"
><https://gallivantingcraftsman.com/what-is-the-difference-between-cast-iron-and-steel/>
>
>>And "High Speed Steel" does, or did, refer to a material commonly used
>>in steel cutting tools - drills, machine tool "bits", etc.
>> https://www.griggssteel.com/what-is-high-speed-steel/
>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_steel>
>"High-speed steel (HSS or HS) is a subset of tool steels..."
>I'm not sure, but it seems that "high speed steel", "tool steel", and
>various mutations highlighting additives, such as "vanadium high speed
>steel" (found among the Grainger drill bits), have been taken over the
>manufacturers marketing departments. I previously mentioned this
>example:
><https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
>Notice that the description features "high speed steel" but also
>indicates that the drills are made for "general purpose drilling in
>wood". One might suspect that this is an oxymoron and certainly not
>"a material commonly used in steel cutting tools" (which incidentally
>isn't very clear if the steel refers to the cutting tool or the
>material being cut). I would much prefer to have something that
>follows a standard, instead of a marketing description:
>"SAE/AISI Carbon Steel Naming Conventions"
><https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6151>
>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#AISI_classification>
>Low-carbon steel
>0.05 - 0.25% carbon (plain carbon steel) content.
>
>Medium-carbon steel
>Approximately 0.3 - 0.5% carbon content. Balances ductility and
>strength and has good wear resistance; used for large parts, forging
>and automotive components.
>
>High-carbon steel
>Approximately 0.6 - 1.0% carbon content. Very strong, used for
>springs, edged tools, and high-strength wires.
>
>Ultra-high-carbon steel
>Approximately 1.25 - 2.0% carbon content. Steels that can be tempered
>to great hardness. Used for special purposes like
>(non-industrial-purpose) knives, axles, and punches. Most steels with
>more than 2.5% carbon content are made using powder metallurgy.
>
>Drivel: Some manufacturers sell "high carbon stainless steel" to the
>knife making industry. The optimum recipe didn't quite meet the
>specifications for being called stainless steel (>13%), so they just
>changed the specification:
><https://agrussell.com/steel-articles/Stainless-Steel-vs-Non-stainless-steel-for-knife-blades>
>"According to ISSF (International Stainless Steel Forum) Stainless
>steel must contain a minimum of 10.5% Chromium rather than 13%. So you
>may find that the definition of stainless steel will differ slightly
>between America and other countries."

Well, you've go on for some lengths but to simplify cast iron is made
in various grades and compared to commonly used steels is relatively
soft... however... a cast iron casting usually has a "skin" of super
hard "steel", i,.e. high carbon iron, what because of rapid cooling is
extremely hard. But, if you take that same casting and stick it in a
furnace and anneal it, it will be the same hardness all the way
through, or maybe I should have said "softness" (:-)

On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> break if abused.

I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:29:29 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>> drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>> looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>> cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>> break if abused.
>
>I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
>house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
>Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
>continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
>told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
>holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.

I assume that you are talking about the carbide tipped twist drills.
I've had the best use out of them using a "hammer drill" and use two
sizes, the first to drill a pilot hole and a second to finish to size.

And yes, they dull easily but they can be sharpened using a
conventional "bench grinder". I had thought the carbide would score or
damage the grinding wheel but apparently the carbide is soft enough
that they do sharpen easily.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 12:04:17 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 4:16:20 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 5:50:46 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
> > > > As usual, 100.0% wrong.
> > > >
> > > > It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
> > > > for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
> > > > bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
> > > > probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
> > > > They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
> > > > bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
> > > >
> > > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> > > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> > > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> > > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> > > > break if abused.
> > > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
> > > > Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
> > > > sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
> > > > about sharpening the bit.
> > > >
> > > > Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
> > > > <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
> > > > <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
> > > > M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
> > > > which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
> > > > "high carbon steel".
> > > >
> > > > Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
> > > > are distinguished by their crystal structure.
> > > > "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
> > > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
> > > > M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
> > > > do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
> > > >
> > > > There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
> > > > generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
> > > > to fame is the low price. For example:
> > > > <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
> > > > These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
> > > > through metal.
> > > Jeff, you don't know one damn thing about quality. Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?
> >
> > His knowledge in that area is orders of magnitude greater than yours - Even Andrew pointed out your mistake.
> > "Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting people like Flunky and all of his close friends at the gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich
> Hey, pinhead, I'm still waiting for your explanation of how I misinterpreted the CDC page I cited. Seems like you know nothing and are anxious to demonstrate it.

Hey pinhead, it was explained to you a dozen times by your four favorite people. That you don't get it is your problem. It's like explaining that Campagnolo non-stretch cables don't exist to you.
"Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:17:23 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 09:04:15 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 4:16:20 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 5:50:46 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
> >> > > As usual, 100.0% wrong.
> >> > >
> >> > > It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
> >> > > for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
> >> > > bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
> >> > > probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
> >> > > They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
> >> > > bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
> >> > >
> >> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> >> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> >> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> >> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> >> > > break if abused.
> >> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
> >> > > Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
> >> > > sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
> >> > > about sharpening the bit.
> >> > >
> >> > > Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
> >> > > <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
> >> > > <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
> >> > > M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
> >> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
> >> > > which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
> >> > > "high carbon steel".
> >> > >
> >> > > Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
> >> > > are distinguished by their crystal structure.
> >> > > "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
> >> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
> >> > > M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
> >> > > do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
> >> > >
> >> > > There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
> >> > > generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
> >> > > to fame is the low price. For example:
> >> > > <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
> >> > > These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
> >> > > through metal.
> >> > Jeff, you don't know one damn thing about quality. Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?
> >>
> >> His knowledge in that area is orders of magnitude greater than yours - Even Andrew pointed out your mistake.
> >> "Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting people like Flunky and all of his close friends at the gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich
> >
> >Hey, pinhead, I'm still waiting for your explanation of how I misinterpreted the CDC page I cited. Seems like you know nothing and are anxious to demonstrate it.
>
> Why are you talking about the CDC when the subject is drill bits?

Because he's a fucking idiot.

> Does the CDC manage drill bits now?
> Do you think the CDC manages drill bits?

He'd probably like to make some linkage to the fact that he breaks drill bits to a conspiracy between Fauci and the CDC.

> Are you crazy?

You and Frank keep asking him that question. We know the answer.
"Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 10:58:37 AM UTC, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:17:23 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 09:04:15 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 4:16:20 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 5:50:46 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > > On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > >> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > > >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
> > >> > > As usual, 100.0% wrong.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
> > >> > > for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
> > >> > > bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
> > >> > > probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
> > >> > > They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
> > >> > > bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> > >> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> > >> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> > >> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> > >> > > break if abused.
> > >> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
> > >> > > Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
> > >> > > sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
> > >> > > about sharpening the bit.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
> > >> > > <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
> > >> > > <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
> > >> > > M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
> > >> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
> > >> > > which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
> > >> > > "high carbon steel".
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
> > >> > > are distinguished by their crystal structure.
> > >> > > "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
> > >> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
> > >> > > M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
> > >> > > do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
> > >> > > generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
> > >> > > to fame is the low price. For example:
> > >> > > <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
> > >> > > These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
> > >> > > through metal.
> > >> > Jeff, you don't know one damn thing about quality. Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?
> > >>
> > >> His knowledge in that area is orders of magnitude greater than yours - Even Andrew pointed out your mistake.
> > >> "Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting people like Flunky and all of his close friends at the gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich
> > >
> > >Hey, pinhead, I'm still waiting for your explanation of how I misinterpreted the CDC page I cited. Seems like you know nothing and are anxious to demonstrate it.
> >
> > Why are you talking about the CDC when the subject is drill bits?
> Because he's a fucking idiot.
> > Does the CDC manage drill bits now?
> > Do you think the CDC manages drill bits?
> He'd probably like to make some linkage to the fact that he breaks drill bits to a conspiracy between Fauci and the CDC.
>
> > Are you crazy?
>
> You and Frank keep asking him that question. We know the answer.
> "Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting gay bath houses" - Tom Munich
>
Yo, Flunky, you failures are flunking again. I now understand why you lot voted for Biden. It is because you're uncomfortable with success. It is because you wanted a failure. You could at least have the grace to apologize for your Maximum Leader's dangerous ballsups.

Andre Jute
Tom wins again!

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 6:08:13 AM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 10:58:37 AM UTC, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:17:23 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 09:04:15 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 4:16:20 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 5:50:46 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> > On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:20:27 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> > > On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:04:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > >> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > > >This is so common that it is hard to get drill bits made of properly hardened steel. They are using high carbon steel that crystalizes and break off. And you have to buy a new one rather than sharpening the old.
> > > >> > > As usual, 100.0% wrong.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > It's hard to get inferior drill bits. Most if not all of what I see
> > > >> > > for sale is quite good quality. It is possible to find inferior drill
> > > >> > > bits if you look hard. Some of the junk in the hardware bargain bin
> > > >> > > probably qualifies. However, these don't "break off" when they fail.
> > > >> > > They are soft and bend a little before breaking. If you have a drill
> > > >> > > bit that "wobbles" from being bent, you have one of these.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> > > >> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> > > >> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> > > >> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> > > >> > > break if abused.
> > > >> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6169>
> > > >> > > Note that titanium plated drill bits are harder than cobalt. You can
> > > >> > > sharpen cobalt drill bits, but once the titanium layer is gone, forget
> > > >> > > about sharpening the bit.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Most commodity drill bits are made from M2 tool steel:
> > > >> > > <https://hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelM2>
> > > >> > > <https://waldunsteel.com/products/m2-high-speed-steel/>
> > > >> > > M2 is 0.85% carbon. "High Carbon" between 0.6 to 1.0% carbon:
> > > >> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel#Higher-carbon_steels>
> > > >> > > which puts M2 in the middle of the range making all commodity drills
> > > >> > > "high carbon steel".
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Also, please note that *ALL* steels are crystals. The various types
> > > >> > > are distinguished by their crystal structure.
> > > >> > > "Steels - The Structure of Engineering Steels"
> > > >> > > <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
> > > >> > > M2 high speed tool steels are already crystalline. Using such steels
> > > >> > > do not crystallize the steel because it is are already crystallized.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > There are drill bits that are listed as "high speed steel", which are
> > > >> > > generally made only for drilling wood or plastic. Their major claim
> > > >> > > to fame is the low price. For example:
> > > >> > > <https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drill-driver-bits/high-speed-steel-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61723.html>
> > > >> > > These don't "break off" but rapidly become dull if used to drill
> > > >> > > through metal.
> > > >> > Jeff, you don't know one damn thing about quality. Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?
> > > >>
> > > >> His knowledge in that area is orders of magnitude greater than yours - Even Andrew pointed out your mistake.
> > > >> "Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting people like Flunky and all of his close friends at the gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich
> > > >
> > > >Hey, pinhead, I'm still waiting for your explanation of how I misinterpreted the CDC page I cited. Seems like you know nothing and are anxious to demonstrate it.
> > >
> > > Why are you talking about the CDC when the subject is drill bits?
> > Because he's a fucking idiot.
> > > Does the CDC manage drill bits now?
> > > Do you think the CDC manages drill bits?
> > He'd probably like to make some linkage to the fact that he breaks drill bits to a conspiracy between Fauci and the CDC.
> >
> > > Are you crazy?
> >
> > You and Frank keep asking him that question. We know the answer.
> > "Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting gay bath houses" - Tom Munich

Trying to claim sparky didn't write that isn't helping your credibility (which is beyond help anyway)

> >
> Yo, Flunky, you failures are flunking again. I now understand why you lot voted for Biden. It is because you're uncomfortable with success. It is because you wanted a failure.

Biden won skippy, Live with it. Trump is a failure skippy, live with it.

> You could at least have the grace to apologize for your Maximum Leader's dangerous ballsups.

You could at least have the grace to walk the walk. In one thread you fawn over Ireland's National (socialist) healthcare system and your public (socialist) transportation system, and admit to getting the Covid vaccine without complaint, yet you start threads admonishing the forum to apologize to sparky for calling him out on his covid bullshit and promoting the fascist policies of what used to be the party of "compassionate conservatism". How you seem to delude yourself that no one here sees your hypocrisy is a question fit only for the best mental health care professionals.
>
> Andre Jute
> Tom wins again!

If by win, you mean abject failure of every aspect of his life, then sure. Perhaps you can help him understand that:
- every general in the US army did _not_ to west point
- campagnolo does _not_ make special non-stretch cables
- the CDC doesn't include deaths from covid in the 'other respiratory deaths' category
- the union army _didn't_ lose every battle before the emancipation proclamation
- you _can't_ test cables with PWM
- 'light lines' is _not_ a common term for fiber optics
- the Great Recession started _before_ Obama took office
- having a different job every year is _not_ a measure of professional success.

And that just his nutbag bloviation from the beginning of this year. The list of kunich failures is vast and broad. If you classify _that_ as the Official donald trump Seal of Win, I understand why your lot voted for trump - It's because the only way for failures like you and sparky to heal your fragile self esteem is to claim your disastrous lives are actually success in disguise. I see now how you fully support his promotion of homosexual genocide as well.

Isn't there an internet writers forum with 30,000 members you should be administrating somewhere?
Piss off scumball, you're not wanted here.
"Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> > break if abused.
> I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
> house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
> Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
> continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
> told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
> holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 6:00:18 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> > On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> > > break if abused.
> > I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
> > house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
> > Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
> > continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
> > told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
> > holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912..
> I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.

Indeed, you cannot drill concrete without a hammer drill regardless of the drill bit. But I was talking about high speed drills. They are high carbon content. They have never been properly sharpened so they immediately begin overheating, crystalize and break off. The pretense of these people who have never even held a drill in their hands and yet continue to comment about it pretty clearly shows that none of their comments are knowledge based.

On 2/14/2022 10:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I was talking about high speed drills. They are high carbon content. They have never been properly sharpened so they immediately begin overheating, crystalize and break off. The pretense of these people who have never even held a drill in their hands and yet continue to comment about it pretty clearly shows that none of their comments are knowledge based.

Tom, you need MUCH more time in a machine shop, preceded by some study
in metallurgy. I think the only phrase you got right was "high carbon
content." And to be clear, high carbon content is necessary in a drill bit.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/14/2022 9:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 6:00:18 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
>>> On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>> You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>>>> drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>>>> looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>>>> cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>>>> break if abused.
>>> I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
>>> house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
>>> Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
>>> continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
>>> told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
>>> holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
>> I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.
>
> Indeed, you cannot drill concrete without a hammer drill regardless of the drill bit. But I was talking about high speed drills. They are high carbon content. They have never been properly sharpened so they immediately begin overheating, crystalize and break off. The pretense of these people who have never even held a drill in their hands and yet continue to comment about it pretty clearly shows that none of their comments are knowledge based.
>

We have a Bosch hammer drill that's great but the other path
is a masonry twist drill bit with silver brazed carbide
inserts and a low cut angle.
https://cdn.shoplightspeed.com/shops/606431/files/1019037/itm-carbide-tipped-drill-bit-1-6-long.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 9:06:50 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/14/2022 10:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > I was talking about high speed drills. They are high carbon content. They have never been properly sharpened so they immediately begin overheating, crystalize and break off. The pretense of these people who have never even held a drill in their hands and yet continue to comment about it pretty clearly shows that none of their comments are knowledge based.
> Tom, you need MUCH more time in a machine shop, preceded by some study
> in metallurgy. I think the only phrase you got right was "high carbon
> content." And to be clear, high carbon content is necessary in a drill bit.

Frank, you don't even know what a machine shop looks like so keep your stupid comments to yourself. I worked as a machinist at times. I see that you also cannot read English like Russell. Did I say that high speed carbon was not acceptable? Firstly portable drills are far too fast for metal work and the drills have to be delivered sharp. Or you have to be able to sharpen a size M3 drill bit which I would warrant you don't even know what grit sharpening stone to use.

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 9:48:30 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/14/2022 9:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 6:00:18 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
> >> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> >>> On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>> You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> >>>> drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> >>>> looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> >>>> cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> >>>> break if abused.
> >>> I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
> >>> house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
> >>> Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
> >>> continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
> >>> told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
> >>> holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
> >> I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.
> >
> > Indeed, you cannot drill concrete without a hammer drill regardless of the drill bit. But I was talking about high speed drills. They are high carbon content. They have never been properly sharpened so they immediately begin overheating, crystalize and break off. The pretense of these people who have never even held a drill in their hands and yet continue to comment about it pretty clearly shows that none of their comments are knowledge based..
> >
> We have a Bosch hammer drill that's great but the other path
> is a masonry twist drill bit with silver brazed carbide
> inserts and a low cut angle.
> https://cdn.shoplightspeed.com/shops/606431/files/1019037/itm-carbide-tipped-drill-bit-1-6-long.jpg

Those work well but you have to use a slow speed drill.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 06:00:16 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
<retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
>> On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>> > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>> > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>> > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>> > break if abused.
>> I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
>> house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
>> Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
>> continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
>> told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
>> holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
>I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.

I suppose it depends on what you are doing. I live in a "cement" house
and frequently drill small holes, some as large as maybe 3/8" with
conventional twist drills with carbide insert points and sure the
hammer drill chuck loosens up - sometimes - but over all it is a
workable task. The last "job" was to install an "automatic" light in
the toilet so my wife doesn't have to fiddle around with light
switches if she used the toilet at night., Two, probably 5/16" holes -
maybe 15 minutes. and "Look Honey! Your husband done it again!" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 07:57:20 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 6:00:18 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
>> > On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>> > > break if abused.
>> > I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
>> > house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
>> > Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
>> > continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
>> > told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
>> > holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
>> I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.
>
>Indeed, you cannot drill concrete without a hammer drill regardless of the drill bit. But I was talking about high speed drills. They are high carbon content. They have never been properly sharpened so they immediately begin overheating, crystalize and break off. The pretense of these people who have never even held a drill in their hands and yet continue to comment about it pretty clearly shows that none of their comments are knowledge based.

Tommy boy, whatever are you talking about? I've been drilling holes in
various materials for, a very long time...and I have Never and I
repeat NEVER experienced a drill bit "crystallizing and breaking off"
And, I'm talking tiny little #80 drills to great big 2 inch drills.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:43:16 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 9:06:50 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/14/2022 10:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > I was talking about high speed drills. They are high carbon content. They have never been properly sharpened so they immediately begin overheating, crystalize and break off. The pretense of these people who have never even held a drill in their hands and yet continue to comment about it pretty clearly shows that none of their comments are knowledge based.
>> Tom, you need MUCH more time in a machine shop, preceded by some study
>> in metallurgy. I think the only phrase you got right was "high carbon
>> content." And to be clear, high carbon content is necessary in a drill bit.
>
>Frank, you don't even know what a machine shop looks like so keep your stupid comments to yourself. I worked as a machinist at times. I see that you also cannot read English like Russell. Did I say that high speed carbon was not acceptable? Firstly portable drills are far too fast for metal work and the drills have to be delivered sharp. Or you have to be able to sharpen a size M3 drill bit which I would warrant you don't even know what grit sharpening stone to use.

Tommy, you are an imbecile! I started my machine shop apprenticeship[
in 1946... and yes I am an old Geezer... and I've been drilling holes
for an even longer period using everything from electric hand drills
to a "Bit and Brace" and based on your post above the only thing you
could have possible done in a Machine Shop was sweep the floor.

And don't start your usually "hubber-hubber-ding-ding" stories about
the CDC or the yellow gnome or any other of your foolishness. You
Don't Know What You Are Talking About!
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:43:57 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 9:48:30 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/14/2022 9:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 6:00:18 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
>> >>> On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> <snip>
>> >>>> You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>> >>>> drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>> >>>> looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>> >>>> cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>> >>>> break if abused.
>> >>> I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
>> >>> house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
>> >>> Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
>> >>> continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
>> >>> told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
>> >>> holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
>> >> I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.
>> >
>> > Indeed, you cannot drill concrete without a hammer drill regardless of the drill bit. But I was talking about high speed drills. They are high carbon content. They have never been properly sharpened so they immediately begin overheating, crystalize and break off. The pretense of these people who have never even held a drill in their hands and yet continue to comment about it pretty clearly shows that none of their comments are knowledge based.
>> >
>> We have a Bosch hammer drill that's great but the other path
>> is a masonry twist drill bit with silver brazed carbide
>> inserts and a low cut angle.
>> https://cdn.shoplightspeed.com/shops/606431/files/1019037/itm-carbide-tipped-drill-bit-1-6-long.jpg
>
>Those work well but you have to use a slow speed drill.

And thus speaks the Great Hole Driller! Or, to be more accurate, the
old geezer that doesn't know what he is talking about.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 8:00:18 AM UTC-6, William Crowell wrote:
> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> > On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> > > break if abused.
> > I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
> > house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
> > Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
> > continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
> > told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
> > holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912..
> I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.

I've drilled a few holes in concrete. The only way to do it is with a rotary hammer drill and SDS bits. I've hung a few electrical boxes and conduit on concrete walls using Tapcon screws. Easy. The harder way is using a hammer drill. Hammer drill is NOT the same as a rotary hammer drill. Hammer drill sucks. Or at least the one I used. Cheap light weight Skil. You use carbide tipped drill bits in the hammer drill. Takes forever to make a hole. Unlike the rotary hammer drill which makes holes instantly.

And regarding Tommy boy's comments on breaking drill bits. You only break thin small drill bits. Never the bigger bits. 1/8" or less bits break. Bigger, thicker, no break. And little bits break when you freehand drill. You put pressure on the side of the drill bit and snap it. Because its impossible for humans to perfectly press exactly straight when drilling. You need a drill press to do that. Bits don't break when used in a drill press..

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 4:46:07 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 06:00:16 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
> <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> >> On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >> > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> >> > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> >> > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> >> > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> >> > break if abused.
> >> I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
> >> house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
> >> Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
> >> continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
> >> told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
> >> holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
> >I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.
> I suppose it depends on what you are doing. I live in a "cement" house
> and frequently drill small holes, some as large as maybe 3/8" with
> conventional twist drills with carbide insert points and sure the
> hammer drill chuck loosens up - sometimes - but over all it is a
> workable task. The last "job" was to install an "automatic" light in
> the toilet so my wife doesn't have to fiddle around with light
> switches if she used the toilet at night., Two, probably 5/16" holes -
> maybe 15 minutes. and "Look Honey! Your husband done it again!" (:-)
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

John, have you ever had the pleasure and joy of using a ROTARY hammer drill? If so, you would throw the hammer drill in the garbage can. Your 15 minute job with a hammer drill and carbide tipped drill bit would have taken about 1 minute or less of drilling time and maybe 5 minutes to find and put away the rotary hammer drill. Now sure, saving 14 minutes or 9 minutes might not seem like much. But just the joy and experience of using a rotary hammer drill compared to the misery of using a hammer drill is worth it.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 21:53:52 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 8:00:18 AM UTC-6, William Crowell wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
>> > On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>> > > break if abused.
>> > I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
>> > house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
>> > Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
>> > continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
>> > told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
>> > holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
>> I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.
>
>I've drilled a few holes in concrete. The only way to do it is with a rotary hammer drill and SDS bits. I've hung a few electrical boxes and conduit on concrete walls using Tapcon screws. Easy. The harder way is using a hammer drill. Hammer drill is NOT the same as a rotary hammer drill. Hammer drill sucks. Or at least the one I used. Cheap light weight Skil. You use carbide tipped drill bits in the hammer drill. Takes forever to make a hole. Unlike the rotary hammer drill which makes holes instantly.
>
>And regarding Tommy boy's comments on breaking drill bits. You only break thin small drill bits. Never the bigger bits. 1/8" or less bits break. Bigger, thicker, no break. And little bits break when you freehand drill. You put pressure on the side of the drill bit and snap it. Because its impossible for humans to perfectly press exactly straight when drilling. You need a drill press to do that. Bits don't break when used in a drill press.

I don't believe I ever heard the term SDS so looked it up and I guess
it is what is called a "hammer drill" here. A conventional, say 3/8th
inch electric hand drill with a selector to let it drill round and
round or to hammer and round and round. Which is what I use with a
carbide tipped twist drill. and yes. the chuck does occasionally
loosen when hammering but all in all, it works. Of course most of my
drilling concrete is to hang something up on the wall, or something of
that nature, and driving nails into concrete doesn't work well so I
drill, maybe a 1/4 - 5/16 - whatever hole and insert a plastic thingy
and screw a sheetmetal screw into that.

Re the "3 inch hole" mentioned above. I'm fairly sure that the bloke
didn't mean a "3" diameter hole" as most people would use the term,
but rather a 3 inch deep hole (:-) Which is a pretty deep hole in most
concrete walls that are probably some sort of concrete block
construction under the surface coat.

Re breaking drill bits. I can't remember ever breaking one and I've
used quite a few #80 bits.

As an aside, when I was at Edwards AFB on the F-111B test project I
worked in the base machine shop quite a bit and they had an
"Experimental" shop there and one of the guys from the Experimental
Shop showed me a .002" drill bit they had made. It was basically a #80
bit with the flutes ground off and a very short section ground to
..002" You had to look at it with a pretty strong magnifier to actually
see it. It was used to drill a hole in a piece of very, very, very,
thin sheetmetal which was used as the metering orifice in an
atmosphere sampling device.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:39:13 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 21:53:52 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 8:00:18 AM UTC-6, William Crowell wrote:
> >> On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> >> > On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> >
> >> > <snip>
> >> > > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
> >> > > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
> >> > > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
> >> > > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
> >> > > break if abused.
> >> > I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
> >> > house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
> >> > Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
> >> > continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
> >> > told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
> >> > holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
> >> I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.
> >
> >I've drilled a few holes in concrete. The only way to do it is with a rotary hammer drill and SDS bits. I've hung a few electrical boxes and conduit on concrete walls using Tapcon screws. Easy. The harder way is using a hammer drill. Hammer drill is NOT the same as a rotary hammer drill. Hammer drill sucks. Or at least the one I used. Cheap light weight Skil. You use carbide tipped drill bits in the hammer drill. Takes forever to make a hole. Unlike the rotary hammer drill which makes holes instantly.
> >
> >And regarding Tommy boy's comments on breaking drill bits. You only break thin small drill bits. Never the bigger bits. 1/8" or less bits break. Bigger, thicker, no break. And little bits break when you freehand drill. You put pressure on the side of the drill bit and snap it. Because its impossible for humans to perfectly press exactly straight when drilling. You need a drill press to do that. Bits don't break when used in a drill press.
> I don't believe I ever heard the term SDS so looked it up and I guess
> it is what is called a "hammer drill" here. A conventional, say 3/8th
> inch electric hand drill with a selector to let it drill round and
> round or to hammer and round and round. Which is what I use with a
> carbide tipped twist drill. and yes. the chuck does occasionally
> loosen when hammering but all in all, it works. Of course most of my
> drilling concrete is to hang something up on the wall, or something of
> that nature, and driving nails into concrete doesn't work well so I
> drill, maybe a 1/4 - 5/16 - whatever hole and insert a plastic thingy
> and screw a sheetmetal screw into that.

SDS is the holding mechanism for ROTARY hammer drills. Regular hammer drills just have a chuck that clamps down on round drill bit shanks. They suck for drilling in concrete. Rotary hammer drill with SDS chuck is wonderful for drilling in concrete.

This is similar to the one I have.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Makita-8-Amp-1-in-Corded-SDS-Plus-Concrete-Masonry-AVT-Anti-Vibration-Technology-Rotary-Hammer-Drill-with-Handle-Hard-Case-HR2641/206040966?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&mtc=Shopping-CM-F_D29A-G-D29A-Multi-Multi-NA-NA-PLA_LIA-NA-NA-MinorAppl_Special_Buys&cm_mmc=Shopping-CM-F_D29A-G-D29A-Multi-Multi-NA-NA-PLA_LIA-NA-NA-MinorAppl_Special_Buys-71700000042813121-58700005464629311-92700067963002094&gclid=Cj0KCQiAmKiQBhClARIsAKtSj-ksUDrRhNJmD8qBWwfeHBiVBfyTyBoHDcN2Wtd0-9Q-kFomWEdNOAYaAj-hEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

SDS drill bits. For drilling in concrete. They snap into the chuck. Pull the chuck back and these bits get inserted and snap into place.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-4-Cutter-SDS-Plus-Carbide-Hammer-Drill-Bit-Kit-5-Piece-48-20-7498/206797938

Hammer drill. NOT a rotary hammer drill. Regular clamp drill chuck. NOT SDS chuck.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Makita-6-Amp-5-8-in-Corded-Hammer-Drill-HP1640/202265681

Bits for a hammer drill.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-Carbide-Hammer-Drill-Bit-Set-7-Piece-DW5207-Y/202550894

When drilling into soft concrete block, a hammer drill is OK. But when drilling into hard concrete, only a rotary hammer drill works.

>
> Re the "3 inch hole" mentioned above. I'm fairly sure that the bloke
> didn't mean a "3" diameter hole" as most people would use the term,
> but rather a 3 inch deep hole (:-) Which is a pretty deep hole in most
> concrete walls that are probably some sort of concrete block
> construction under the surface coat.
>
> Re breaking drill bits. I can't remember ever breaking one and I've
> used quite a few #80 bits.
>
> As an aside, when I was at Edwards AFB on the F-111B test project I
> worked in the base machine shop quite a bit and they had an
> "Experimental" shop there and one of the guys from the Experimental
> Shop showed me a .002" drill bit they had made. It was basically a #80
> bit with the flutes ground off and a very short section ground to
> .002" You had to look at it with a pretty strong magnifier to actually
> see it. It was used to drill a hole in a piece of very, very, very,
> thin sheetmetal which was used as the metering orifice in an
> atmosphere sampling device.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.