On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 22:05:36 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 4:46:07 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 06:00:16 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
>> <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:29:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
>> >> On 2/12/2022 12:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >>
>> >> <snip>
>> >> > You can also accidentally purchase drill bits that are made for
>> >> > drilling in specialty material. Usually, these will have a strange
>> >> > looking point, lip, or edge. M35 Bits made for drilling titanium,
>> >> > cast iron, and stainless include cobalt in the recipe and tend to
>> >> > break if abused.
>> >> I was recently helping someone drill some holes in concrete in a rental
>> >> house his family owns. The drill bits for concrete, that he purchased at
>> >> Home Depot. could drill about one 3 inch hole before being too dull to
>> >> continue. He had only bought one bit. I sent him back to Home Depot and
>> >> told him to buy three more bits since we had to drill a total of four
>> >> holes. Maybe it was just very hard concrete, having been poured in 1912.
>> >I think the bare minimum of equipment to drill concrete is an electric roto-hammer that uses "SDS"-type bits. I have tried and failed: it's impossible to drill concrete with a normal twist drill. For one thing, a twist drill won't stay tight in the chuck. That's why they have "SDS" chucks.
>> I suppose it depends on what you are doing. I live in a "cement" house
>> and frequently drill small holes, some as large as maybe 3/8" with
>> conventional twist drills with carbide insert points and sure the
>> hammer drill chuck loosens up - sometimes - but over all it is a
>> workable task. The last "job" was to install an "automatic" light in
>> the toilet so my wife doesn't have to fiddle around with light
>> switches if she used the toilet at night., Two, probably 5/16" holes -
>> maybe 15 minutes. and "Look Honey! Your husband done it again!" (:-)
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>John, have you ever had the pleasure and joy of using a ROTARY hammer
drill? If so, you would throw the hammer drill in the garbage can.
Your 15 minute job with a hammer drill and carbide tipped drill bit
would have taken about 1 minute or less of drilling time and maybe 5
minutes to find and put away the rotary hammer drill. Now sure,
saving 14 minutes or 9 minutes might not seem like much. But just the
joy and experience of using a rotary hammer drill compared to the
misery of using a hammer drill is worth it.

If you are talking about something like
https://www.amazon.com/Rotary-Hammers/b?node=552858
then no.
What I have are 3/8" electric drills with a hammer setting. Similar to
https://www.lowes.com/pd/CRAFTSMAN-V20-1-2-in-20-Volt-Max-Variable-Speed-Cordless-Hammer-Drill-1-Battery-Included/500196693
although not a Craftsman.
I don't remember the cost but around about $75 - $80, I'd guess
It is not likely to be the best possible choice but it works and
frankly is "good enough for my purposes.

As I said, my latest project was drilling two 1/4" holes to mount a
"magic light" that turns itself on when it senses movement, so my wife
can stumble into the toilet at night without fumbling for the light
switch.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 22:07:13 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 5:09:02 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> Tommy, you are an imbecile!
>>
>> You Don't Know What You Are Talking About!
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Truer words were never spoken.

In all seriousness I really wonder about Tom. He, almost continuously
makes positive statements about things about which he very obviously
doesn't know anything. Now, we all do this to some extent but commonly
someone says something like, "Well, I've read..." Or "A bloke told
me..." but Tommy? His recent story about steel drill bits that
crystallize and break, for example. And when Jeff corrects him he gets
all upset and either changes the subject or starts with the insults.
I'm beginning to think that he has real mental problems.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 3:30:43 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 22:07:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 5:09:02 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> Tommy, you are an imbecile!
> >>
> >> You Don't Know What You Are Talking About!
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >Truer words were never spoken.
> In all seriousness I really wonder about Tom. He, almost continuously
> makes positive statements about things about which he very obviously
> doesn't know anything. Now, we all do this to some extent but commonly
> someone says something like, "Well, I've read..." Or "A bloke told
> me..." but Tommy? His recent story about steel drill bits that
> crystallize and break, for example. And when Jeff corrects him he gets
> all upset and either changes the subject or starts with the insults.
> I'm beginning to think that he has real mental problems.

"beginning" to think? I realized that years ago.
"Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich

On 2/15/2022 1:39 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> As an aside, when I was at Edwards AFB on the F-111B test project I
> worked in the base machine shop quite a bit and they had an
> "Experimental" shop there and one of the guys from the Experimental
> Shop showed me a .002" drill bit they had made. It was basically a #80
> bit with the flutes ground off and a very short section ground to
> .002" You had to look at it with a pretty strong magnifier to actually
> see it. It was used to drill a hole in a piece of very, very, very,
> thin sheetmetal which was used as the metering orifice in an
> atmosphere sampling device.

That's impressive. I've never thought about drilling holes that small or
how it might be done.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/14/2022 8:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:43:16 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Firstly portable drills are far too fast for metal work
>
> Ahem. "Fast" implies linear motion. For rotary motion, as in a
> rotary drill, the term is RPM (revolts per minute). However, this is
> no doubt one of your spelling error, so I'll assume you mean "too high
> RPM". Strangely, I've been drill holes in various metals using
> portable drills for about 65 years. The optimum drilling speed for
> various diameter drills and materials can be found in your Machinery's
> Handbook. Presumably, you are familiar with this book. Tables 17
> thru 23 cover feeds and speeds including drilling:
> <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>

Wow. Saved that!

I got my first personal copy of the Machinery's Handbook when I started
my first engineering job. My boss asked if the company should buy me any
books, and I requested that book plus [Marks'] Standard Handbook for
Mechanical Engineers. Those are still with me, although I left
subsequent editions to my successors at the university when I retired.

> Judging by your inability to use proper terminology, I don't think you
> know anything about machine shop practices.

+1

> Incidentally, steel does not "crystallize". All carbon steel alloys
> already have a crystalline structure:
> <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>

+1

> Ok, back to plumbing. I'm almost done, but I still hate plumbing.

And so do I.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:59:06 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/14/2022 8:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> The optimum drilling speed for
> > various diameter drills and materials can be found in your Machinery's
> > Handbook. Presumably, you are familiar with this book. Tables 17
> > thru 23 cover feeds and speeds including drilling:
> > <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
>
> Wow. Saved that!
>
> I got my first personal copy of the Machinery's Handbook when I started
> my first engineering job. My boss asked if the company should buy me any
> books, and I requested that book plus [Marks'] Standard Handbook for
> Mechanical Engineers. Those are still with me, although I left
> subsequent editions to my successors at the university when I retired.

In my early days the library demands were the Fink book
https://www.amazon.com/Electronics-engineers-handbook-Donald-Fink/dp/0070209804

and the TTL cookbook
https://books.google.com/books/about/TTL_Cookbook.html?id=XM4xAAAAMAAJ&source=kp_book_description

> > Judging by your inability to use proper terminology, I don't think you
> > know anything about machine shop practices.
> +1
and another +1

> > Ok, back to plumbing. I'm almost done, but I still hate plumbing.
> And so do I.

Wood working is my bane. Plumbing, electric, concrete, landscaping, even old sash window repair, no problem. Wood and I, however, not friends...

On 2/15/2022 2:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:58:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/14/2022 8:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> ... I still hate plumbing.
>>
>> And so do I.
>
> I'm mostly done. No leaks or fatalities so far...

Whoa. "Plumbing fatalities." An idea too extreme even for the horror
film industry.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 03:12:37 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 3:30:43 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 22:07:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 5:09:02 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >> Tommy, you are an imbecile!
>> >>
>> >> You Don't Know What You Are Talking About!
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> >Truer words were never spoken.
>> In all seriousness I really wonder about Tom. He, almost continuously
>> makes positive statements about things about which he very obviously
>> doesn't know anything. Now, we all do this to some extent but commonly
>> someone says something like, "Well, I've read..." Or "A bloke told
>> me..." but Tommy? His recent story about steel drill bits that
>> crystallize and break, for example. And when Jeff corrects him he gets
>> all upset and either changes the subject or starts with the insults.
>> I'm beginning to think that he has real mental problems.
>
>"beginning" to think? I realized that years ago.
>"Magazines available up to 30 rounds for visiting gay bath houses" - Tom Kunich

Well.... I suppose it is much a matter of semantics. He is nuttier
then a fruitcake just seems to be a rather harsh statement while "I'm
beginning to believe..." is much milder term which might be used in
mixed company.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:49:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/15/2022 1:39 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> As an aside, when I was at Edwards AFB on the F-111B test project I
>> worked in the base machine shop quite a bit and they had an
>> "Experimental" shop there and one of the guys from the Experimental
>> Shop showed me a .002" drill bit they had made. It was basically a #80
>> bit with the flutes ground off and a very short section ground to
>> .002" You had to look at it with a pretty strong magnifier to actually
>> see it. It was used to drill a hole in a piece of very, very, very,
>> thin sheetmetal which was used as the metering orifice in an
>> atmosphere sampling device.
>
>That's impressive. I've never thought about drilling holes that small or
>how it might be done.

It was more then a little impressive to me also and as I've said I
began an proctorship way back when.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:58:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/14/2022 8:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:43:16 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Firstly portable drills are far too fast for metal work
>>
>> Ahem. "Fast" implies linear motion. For rotary motion, as in a
>> rotary drill, the term is RPM (revolts per minute). However, this is
>> no doubt one of your spelling error, so I'll assume you mean "too high
>> RPM". Strangely, I've been drill holes in various metals using
>> portable drills for about 65 years. The optimum drilling speed for
>> various diameter drills and materials can be found in your Machinery's
>> Handbook. Presumably, you are familiar with this book. Tables 17
>> thru 23 cover feeds and speeds including drilling:
>> <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
>
>Wow. Saved that!
>
>I got my first personal copy of the Machinery's Handbook when I started
>my first engineering job. My boss asked if the company should buy me any
>books, and I requested that book plus [Marks'] Standard Handbook for
>Mechanical Engineers. Those are still with me, although I left
>subsequent editions to my successors at the university when I retired.
>
>> Judging by your inability to use proper terminology, I don't think you
>> know anything about machine shop practices.
>
>+1
>
>> Incidentally, steel does not "crystallize". All carbon steel alloys
>> already have a crystalline structure:
>> <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
>
>+1
>
>> Ok, back to plumbing. I'm almost done, but I still hate plumbing.
>
>And so do I.

Re Machinery's Hand book.

Way back when I was an apprentice my mother's washing machine broke a
gear and I brought the broken part to the shop and asked if I could
make one as apparently the machine was so old that parts were no
longer available. And yes I could, so I turned up a "blank" out of
steel and next I had to cut gear teeth so I asked the Apprentice
Master and he tells me that I need a 10 pitch number 7 cutter and it
was 5 turns and 5 increments on the dividing head, or some such thing.

I asked the old chap how he knew all that and he fetched his copy of
The Book out of the office and showed it to me. Amazing!

I asked him if he could borrow it to read and he let me take it home
at night, but I had to bring it back every morning.

And the gear lasted until my folks bought a modern washing machine
(:-)

By the way, the Old Fellow had "gone in the shop" at the age of 12 and
did a 6 year apprenticeship and was in his 60's when I knew him.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 11:25:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:58:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 2/14/2022 8:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>>> <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
>>
>>Wow. Saved that!
>
>Yep. I was rather surprised to find that. The current issue is #31,
>fills 2995 pages, and costs $115 and up.
><https://books.industrialpress.com/machinery-handbook/>
>
>>I got my first personal copy of the Machinery's Handbook when I started
>>my first engineering job.
>
>I have 2 copies (#18 and #19). I found #18 in #19 at a local
>bookstore around 1975. I bought one for home and the other for work.
>
>>My boss asked if the company should buy me any
>>books, and I requested that book plus [Marks'] Standard Handbook for
>>Mechanical Engineers. Those are still with me, although I left
>>subsequent editions to my successors at the university when I retired.
>
>I have the 1910 version, 8th edition of "Kent's Mechanical Engineers
>Pocket-Book", which I believe is a portable version of the handbook.
>1461 page in tiny print. It's not very useful for modern materials
>and metric measurements, but has been helpful in finding information
>on old machinery. I have to admit that I don't use the handbooks very
>often as most of what I need these days can be found on the internet.
>
>>> Ok, back to plumbing. I'm almost done, but I still hate plumbing.
>>
>>And so do I.
>
>I'm mostly done. No leaks or fatalities so far:
><http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/Plumbing/index.html>
>The damage was the result of the original plumber (in 1968) using far
>too much pipe joint compound, and building a dam inside the 1 1/2"
>steel pipe. Everything I poured down the drain collected behind the
>dam and eventually went over. My guess is about 50% blockage. What
>corroded the pipe was several failed chemistry experiments that I
>thought were safe for steel plumbing. I ran a borescope down the pipe
>to see if there was any more corrosion. Nothing found except more
>pipe joint compound dams.
>
>Kitchen and bathroom faucet rebuilds scheduled for Weds. Shower
>replacement in a month or two. I still hate plumbing.

Well, I think, from some of your posts that you live a bit "in the
country" so you could dig a pit and erect an "Out House" and that
would get rid of the sewage plumbing. Then a wash tub on the back
porch will eliminate the washing machine plumbing and baths can be
taken in a "bath tub" in front of the kitchen stove on Saturday night,
which gets the plumbing down to a single hand pump at the kitchen
sink.

Easy peasy if you know how (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/15/2022 5:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:49:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/15/2022 1:39 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> As an aside, when I was at Edwards AFB on the F-111B test project I
>>> worked in the base machine shop quite a bit and they had an
>>> "Experimental" shop there and one of the guys from the Experimental
>>> Shop showed me a .002" drill bit they had made. It was basically a #80
>>> bit with the flutes ground off and a very short section ground to
>>> .002" You had to look at it with a pretty strong magnifier to actually
>>> see it. It was used to drill a hole in a piece of very, very, very,
>>> thin sheetmetal which was used as the metering orifice in an
>>> atmosphere sampling device.
>>
>> That's impressive. I've never thought about drilling holes that small or
>> how it might be done.
>
> It was more then a little impressive to me also and as I've said I
> began an proctorship way back when.

I wonder if these days they might use a laser. Just curious.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/15/2022 6:04 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:58:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/14/2022 8:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:43:16 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Firstly portable drills are far too fast for metal work
>>>
>>> Ahem. "Fast" implies linear motion. For rotary motion, as in a
>>> rotary drill, the term is RPM (revolts per minute). However, this is
>>> no doubt one of your spelling error, so I'll assume you mean "too high
>>> RPM". Strangely, I've been drill holes in various metals using
>>> portable drills for about 65 years. The optimum drilling speed for
>>> various diameter drills and materials can be found in your Machinery's
>>> Handbook. Presumably, you are familiar with this book. Tables 17
>>> thru 23 cover feeds and speeds including drilling:
>>> <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
>>
>> Wow. Saved that!
>>
>> I got my first personal copy of the Machinery's Handbook when I started
>> my first engineering job. My boss asked if the company should buy me any
>> books, and I requested that book plus [Marks'] Standard Handbook for
>> Mechanical Engineers. Those are still with me, although I left
>> subsequent editions to my successors at the university when I retired.
>>
>>> Judging by your inability to use proper terminology, I don't think you
>>> know anything about machine shop practices.
>>
>> +1
>>
>>> Incidentally, steel does not "crystallize". All carbon steel alloys
>>> already have a crystalline structure:
>>> <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>> Ok, back to plumbing. I'm almost done, but I still hate plumbing.
>>
>> And so do I.
>
> Re Machinery's Hand book.
>
> Way back when I was an apprentice my mother's washing machine broke a
> gear and I brought the broken part to the shop and asked if I could
> make one as apparently the machine was so old that parts were no
> longer available. And yes I could, so I turned up a "blank" out of
> steel and next I had to cut gear teeth so I asked the Apprentice
> Master and he tells me that I need a 10 pitch number 7 cutter and it
> was 5 turns and 5 increments on the dividing head, or some such thing.
>
> I asked the old chap how he knew all that and he fetched his copy of
> The Book out of the office and showed it to me. Amazing!
>
> I asked him if he could borrow it to read and he let me take it home
> at night, but I had to bring it back every morning.

You missed an opportunity at that point in your post! If you were Tom,
you'd have said you "read the book out" by morning, and still "remember"
it all. :-)

>
> And the gear lasted until my folks bought a modern washing machine
> (:-)
>
> By the way, the Old Fellow had "gone in the shop" at the age of 12 and
> did a 6 year apprenticeship and was in his 60's when I knew him.

Interesting. Two days ago, we talked with a bike club friend of ours
whom we haven't seen in quite a while because of the weather here. She
related working in her grandfather's machine shop starting at an even
younger age, something like 9. A line shaft shop, powered by flat belts
and an old Ford engine. Those were the days!

But about the gear: At one foundry I used to visit frequently, the
engineer in charge once described taking in a gear from his riding mower
transmission, which had broken a tooth. He asked the shop foreman if
they could make one.

According to the engineer, the foreman immediately used the broken gear
as a pattern. He pressed the gear down into a flat layer of green sand,
wiggled it a bit for clearance and a shrinkage allowance, then retracted
it. He then rotated it so the break was in a different spot and
repeated. Then he poured ductile iron into the resulting mold (still
open on top) and produced a workable gear.

I don't remember how the gear was located on a shaft or anything else,
but it sounded like a neat trick.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 13:12:56 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In my early days the library demands were the Fink book
>> https://www.amazon.com/Electronics-engineers-handbook-Donald-Fink/dp/0070209804
>
> I attended 3 colleges, each of which had their favorite books. This
> was the 1960's, when textbook roulette was fashionable. With every
> change of instructor or administration, we were required to buy yet
> another text book. None were particularly memorable.
>
> When I finally settled down to do some real electronics design, I
> found an apartment that was fairly close to Santa Clara University. I
> convinced the administration that I was a potential post-graduate
> student, which gave me access to the "stacks" also known as the
> library. Various libraries and used book stores were my main source
> of reference material. At the same time, I collected trade journals,
> manufacturers literature, app notes, and trade show swag, which were
> my main source of design ideas worth stealing. I moved several times
> during this period, but always maintained my assortment of library
> cards.
>
> Things changed when I started doing consulting. I was fixing
> computers in Santa Cruz, and doing the design work at home in Ben
> Lomond. The local libraries were useless. So, I had to buy some
> books. There were a bunch of RF related books, but the main source
> was "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill:
> <https://artofelectronics.net>
> <https://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Electronics-Paul-Horowitz/dp/0521809266>
> ToC, Index, and sample chapter on Power Supplies:
> <https://artofelectronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/AoE3_chapter9.pdf>

AoE is a brilliant textbook. Unfortunately, it wasn’t used in my electrical
engineering classes and I only discovered it via a roommate who had it
assigned for a “electronics for mining engineers” course.

> One of my 3 bookshelves:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/bookshelf.jpg>
>
>> and the TTL cookbook
>> https://books.google.com/books/about/TTL_Cookbook.html?id=XM4xAAAAMAAJ&source=kp_book_description
>
> A Don Lancaster book. I have his CMOS Cookbook somewhere. Long ago,
> I bought his early "TV Typewriter" kit at the local Byte Shop. It had
> problems which I tracked down to a design errors. That's probably why
> I didn't like his books.
>
>> Wood working is my bane. Plumbing, electric, concrete, landscaping, even
>> old sash window repair, no problem. Wood and I, however, not friends...
>
> The secret to woodworking is to measure everything at least 4 times
> with 4 different measuring instruments. Only then do you have a
> chance of having it fit together.
>
> This is my latest "wood" horror:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2022.jpg>
> A neighbor was dropping some oaks and gave me the wood. Nothing like
> fresh cut, soaking wet, heavy, "green" tan oak. It took me about 9(?)
> hrs, over a 3 day span, to drag, buck, and split everything into
> firewood by hand using a splitting axe:
> <https://www.fiskars.com/en-us/gardening-and-yard-care/products/axes-mauls-and-machetes/super-splitting-axe-36-375841-1001>
> About 0.28 cords, which is about 7 weeks burn. I'm getting too old
> for this kind of work. Next time, I'll use a gasoline (or electric)
> log splitter.
>
>
>

On 2/15/2022 8:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 13:12:56 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> One of my 3 bookshelves:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/bookshelf.jpg>

I especially like the noise-proof lighting system. That, I can
understand. (I'm not much for electronics.)

>
>> Wood working is my bane. Plumbing, electric, concrete, landscaping, even old sash window repair, no problem. Wood and I, however, not friends...
>
> The secret to woodworking is to measure everything at least 4 times
> with 4 different measuring instruments. Only then do you have a
> chance of having it fit together.

I've done quite a lot with wood, from carpentry to some fairly nice
furniture pieces. But my challenge with wood is that it continues to
want to change size and shape even when you're done.

Just two days ago I was asked to consult about a lovely antique table
(my grandmother's, actually). Over the decades, the top contracted so
much across the grain that the apron below it is longer by at least a
quarter inch. Surgery will be required.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 19:23:42 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/15/2022 5:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:49:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/15/2022 1:39 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As an aside, when I was at Edwards AFB on the F-111B test project I
>>>> worked in the base machine shop quite a bit and they had an
>>>> "Experimental" shop there and one of the guys from the Experimental
>>>> Shop showed me a .002" drill bit they had made. It was basically a #80
>>>> bit with the flutes ground off and a very short section ground to
>>>> .002" You had to look at it with a pretty strong magnifier to actually
>>>> see it. It was used to drill a hole in a piece of very, very, very,
>>>> thin sheetmetal which was used as the metering orifice in an
>>>> atmosphere sampling device.
>>>
>>> That's impressive. I've never thought about drilling holes that small or
>>> how it might be done.
>>
>> It was more then a little impressive to me also and as I've said I
>> began an proctorship way back when.
>
>I wonder if these days they might use a laser. Just curious.

I don't know as I was only at Edwards for less then a year and "My
Uncle" sent me back overseas and to be honest the Machinist trade on
most Air Force Bases is mostly a matter of fixing broken bolts and
stripped screws (:-)

But the way, the way they used the drill(s) the guy apparently made
several, was to mount the drill in a vertical boring machine, then
using a "microscope" position the drill a tiny bit above the material
to be drilled and then start the power feed. I think that they had
changed the gearing in the boring machine for some super fine feeding
speed. I didn't see it done but the guy claimed that they never broke
a drill, but he didn't say how many holes they drilled either (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 19:46:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/15/2022 6:04 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:58:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/14/2022 8:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:43:16 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Firstly portable drills are far too fast for metal work
>>>>
>>>> Ahem. "Fast" implies linear motion. For rotary motion, as in a
>>>> rotary drill, the term is RPM (revolts per minute). However, this is
>>>> no doubt one of your spelling error, so I'll assume you mean "too high
>>>> RPM". Strangely, I've been drill holes in various metals using
>>>> portable drills for about 65 years. The optimum drilling speed for
>>>> various diameter drills and materials can be found in your Machinery's
>>>> Handbook. Presumably, you are familiar with this book. Tables 17
>>>> thru 23 cover feeds and speeds including drilling:
>>>> <https://www.vtc1.org/cms/lib/PA03000913/Centricity/Domain/21/Machinerys%20Handbook%2029th%20Edition.pdf>
>>>
>>> Wow. Saved that!
>>>
>>> I got my first personal copy of the Machinery's Handbook when I started
>>> my first engineering job. My boss asked if the company should buy me any
>>> books, and I requested that book plus [Marks'] Standard Handbook for
>>> Mechanical Engineers. Those are still with me, although I left
>>> subsequent editions to my successors at the university when I retired.
>>>
>>>> Judging by your inability to use proper terminology, I don't think you
>>>> know anything about machine shop practices.
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>> Incidentally, steel does not "crystallize". All carbon steel alloys
>>>> already have a crystalline structure:
>>>> <https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=399>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>> Ok, back to plumbing. I'm almost done, but I still hate plumbing.
>>>
>>> And so do I.
>>
>> Re Machinery's Hand book.
>>
>> Way back when I was an apprentice my mother's washing machine broke a
>> gear and I brought the broken part to the shop and asked if I could
>> make one as apparently the machine was so old that parts were no
>> longer available. And yes I could, so I turned up a "blank" out of
>> steel and next I had to cut gear teeth so I asked the Apprentice
>> Master and he tells me that I need a 10 pitch number 7 cutter and it
>> was 5 turns and 5 increments on the dividing head, or some such thing.
>>
>> I asked the old chap how he knew all that and he fetched his copy of
>> The Book out of the office and showed it to me. Amazing!
>>
>> I asked him if he could borrow it to read and he let me take it home
>> at night, but I had to bring it back every morning.
>
>You missed an opportunity at that point in your post! If you were Tom,
>you'd have said you "read the book out" by morning, and still "remember"
>it all. :-)
>
>>
>> And the gear lasted until my folks bought a modern washing machine
>> (:-)
>>
>> By the way, the Old Fellow had "gone in the shop" at the age of 12 and
>> did a 6 year apprenticeship and was in his 60's when I knew him.
>
>Interesting. Two days ago, we talked with a bike club friend of ours
>whom we haven't seen in quite a while because of the weather here. She
>related working in her grandfather's machine shop starting at an even
>younger age, something like 9. A line shaft shop, powered by flat belts
>and an old Ford engine. Those were the days!

I worked, part of one summer at a shop like that. Overhead shafts that
had originally been driven by a steam engine but the two sons of the
family had converted to electric motor. I didn't last long as they set
me to making bolts on a lathe that had a cross feed calibrated in
1/180th of an inch which must have dated back to the civil War.

>But about the gear: At one foundry I used to visit frequently, the
>engineer in charge once described taking in a gear from his riding mower
>transmission, which had broken a tooth. He asked the shop foreman if
>they could make one.
>
>According to the engineer, the foreman immediately used the broken gear
>as a pattern. He pressed the gear down into a flat layer of green sand,
>wiggled it a bit for clearance and a shrinkage allowance, then retracted
>it. He then rotated it so the break was in a different spot and
>repeated. Then he poured ductile iron into the resulting mold (still
>open on top) and produced a workable gear.
>
>I don't remember how the gear was located on a shaft or anything else,
>but it sounded like a neat trick.

As part of my training we made wooden "forms" for a foundry and I
remember that the had special rulers that incorporated the shrinkage
of cast iron. So two inches wasn't two inches it was two inches + I
seem to remember the figure of 1/8th inch per foot
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 17:42:34 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 13:12:56 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
><funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>In my early days the library demands were the Fink book
>>https://www.amazon.com/Electronics-engineers-handbook-Donald-Fink/dp/0070209804
>
>I attended 3 colleges, each of which had their favorite books. This
>was the 1960's, when textbook roulette was fashionable. With every
>change of instructor or administration, we were required to buy yet
>another text book. None were particularly memorable.
>
>When I finally settled down to do some real electronics design, I
>found an apartment that was fairly close to Santa Clara University. I
>convinced the administration that I was a potential post-graduate
>student, which gave me access to the "stacks" also known as the
>library. Various libraries and used book stores were my main source
>of reference material. At the same time, I collected trade journals,
>manufacturers literature, app notes, and trade show swag, which were
>my main source of design ideas worth stealing. I moved several times
>during this period, but always maintained my assortment of library
>cards.
>
>Things changed when I started doing consulting. I was fixing
>computers in Santa Cruz, and doing the design work at home in Ben
>Lomond. The local libraries were useless. So, I had to buy some
>books. There were a bunch of RF related books, but the main source
>was "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill:
><https://artofelectronics.net>
><https://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Electronics-Paul-Horowitz/dp/0521809266>
>ToC, Index, and sample chapter on Power Supplies:
><https://artofelectronics.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/AoE3_chapter9.pdf>
>One of my 3 bookshelves:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/bookshelf.jpg>
>
>>and the TTL cookbook
>>https://books.google.com/books/about/TTL_Cookbook.html?id=XM4xAAAAMAAJ&source=kp_book_description
>
>A Don Lancaster book. I have his CMOS Cookbook somewhere. Long ago,
>I bought his early "TV Typewriter" kit at the local Byte Shop. It had
>problems which I tracked down to a design errors. That's probably why
>I didn't like his books.
>
>>Wood working is my bane. Plumbing, electric, concrete, landscaping, even old sash window repair, no problem. Wood and I, however, not friends...
>
>The secret to woodworking is to measure everything at least 4 times
>with 4 different measuring instruments. Only then do you have a
>chance of having it fit together.
>
>This is my latest "wood" horror:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2022.jpg>
>A neighbor was dropping some oaks and gave me the wood. Nothing like
>fresh cut, soaking wet, heavy, "green" tan oak. It took me about 9(?)
>hrs, over a 3 day span, to drag, buck, and split everything into
>firewood by hand using a splitting axe:
><https://www.fiskars.com/en-us/gardening-and-yard-care/products/axes-mauls-and-machetes/super-splitting-axe-36-375841-1001>
>About 0.28 cords, which is about 7 weeks burn. I'm getting too old
>for this kind of work. Next time, I'll use a gasoline (or electric)
>log splitter.

I "earned" my first .22 rifle doing just that every day after school
for a month, when I was 12 years old (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 18:09:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 19:46:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>According to the engineer, the foreman immediately used the broken gear
>>as a pattern. He pressed the gear down into a flat layer of green sand,
>>wiggled it a bit for clearance and a shrinkage allowance, then retracted
>>it. He then rotated it so the break was in a different spot and
>>repeated. Then he poured ductile iron into the resulting mold (still
>>open on top) and produced a workable gear.
>
>Clever. Open casting eliminates the need for a gating system for
>pouring in the metal. However, the gear would need to have the rough
>open side of the gear face milled.

Back in the day a lot of farm machinery used cast gearing. as cast,
Although, of course the bore hole was machined to fit the shaft.

>These daze, waterjet abrasive cutting is the fastest and easiest way
>to make gears:
>"Thick Helical Gear Cutting with the 5-Axis CMS Waterjet"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFnrkrkC4gc>
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/15/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 19:23:42 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/15/2022 5:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:49:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/15/2022 1:39 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As an aside, when I was at Edwards AFB on the F-111B test project I
>>>>> worked in the base machine shop quite a bit and they had an
>>>>> "Experimental" shop there and one of the guys from the Experimental
>>>>> Shop showed me a .002" drill bit they had made. It was basically a #80
>>>>> bit with the flutes ground off and a very short section ground to
>>>>> .002" You had to look at it with a pretty strong magnifier to actually
>>>>> see it. It was used to drill a hole in a piece of very, very, very,
>>>>> thin sheetmetal which was used as the metering orifice in an
>>>>> atmosphere sampling device.
>>>>
>>>> That's impressive. I've never thought about drilling holes that small or
>>>> how it might be done.
>>>
>>> It was more then a little impressive to me also and as I've said I
>>> began an proctorship way back when.
>>
>> I wonder if these days they might use a laser. Just curious.
>
> I don't know as I was only at Edwards for less then a year and "My
> Uncle" sent me back overseas and to be honest the Machinist trade on
> most Air Force Bases is mostly a matter of fixing broken bolts and
> stripped screws (:-)
>
> But the way, the way they used the drill(s) the guy apparently made
> several, was to mount the drill in a vertical boring machine, then
> using a "microscope" position the drill a tiny bit above the material
> to be drilled and then start the power feed. I think that they had
> changed the gearing in the boring machine for some super fine feeding
> speed. I didn't see it done but the guy claimed that they never broke
> a drill, but he didn't say how many holes they drilled either (:-)

I see Grainger sells drills that small.
https://www.grainger.com/category/machining/drilling-holemaking/drill-bits/drill-bits-for-metal-plastic/micro-drill-bits/metalworking-micro-drill-bits?attrs=Decimal+Equivalent%7C0.002&filters=attrs

And I guess lasers are occasionally used, as well.
https://monroeengineering.com/blog/what-is-laser-drilling/

I think the smallest hole I've ever drilled was about 0.030", and I did
that by hand using a pin vise.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/15/2022 11:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> As part of my training we made wooden "forms" for a foundry and I
> remember that the had special rulers that incorporated the shrinkage
> of cast iron. So two inches wasn't two inches it was two inches + I
> seem to remember the figure of 1/8th inch per foot

Yep. Pattern shops used "shrink rules," and typically had various ones,
each calibrated to the shrinkage of the particular metal being cast,
whether iron, aluminum, bronze or whatever.

One of my best friends had a father who owned a pattern shop. It was
hard to find a normal ruler in that place!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:40:15 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/15/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 19:23:42 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/15/2022 5:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:49:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/15/2022 1:39 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As an aside, when I was at Edwards AFB on the F-111B test project I
>>>>>> worked in the base machine shop quite a bit and they had an
>>>>>> "Experimental" shop there and one of the guys from the Experimental
>>>>>> Shop showed me a .002" drill bit they had made. It was basically a #80
>>>>>> bit with the flutes ground off and a very short section ground to
>>>>>> .002" You had to look at it with a pretty strong magnifier to actually
>>>>>> see it. It was used to drill a hole in a piece of very, very, very,
>>>>>> thin sheetmetal which was used as the metering orifice in an
>>>>>> atmosphere sampling device.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's impressive. I've never thought about drilling holes that small or
>>>>> how it might be done.
>>>>
>>>> It was more then a little impressive to me also and as I've said I
>>>> began an proctorship way back when.
>>>
>>> I wonder if these days they might use a laser. Just curious.
>>
>> I don't know as I was only at Edwards for less then a year and "My
>> Uncle" sent me back overseas and to be honest the Machinist trade on
>> most Air Force Bases is mostly a matter of fixing broken bolts and
>> stripped screws (:-)
>>
>> But the way, the way they used the drill(s) the guy apparently made
>> several, was to mount the drill in a vertical boring machine, then
>> using a "microscope" position the drill a tiny bit above the material
>> to be drilled and then start the power feed. I think that they had
>> changed the gearing in the boring machine for some super fine feeding
>> speed. I didn't see it done but the guy claimed that they never broke
>> a drill, but he didn't say how many holes they drilled either (:-)
>
>I see Grainger sells drills that small.
>https://www.grainger.com/category/machining/drilling-holemaking/drill-bits/drill-bits-for-metal-plastic/micro-drill-bits/metalworking-micro-drill-bits?attrs=Decimal+Equivalent%7C0.002&filters=attrs
>
>And I guess lasers are occasionally used, as well.
>https://monroeengineering.com/blog/what-is-laser-drilling/
>
>I think the smallest hole I've ever drilled was about 0.030", and I did
>that by hand using a pin vise.

"Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
remember ever using one (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>(chomp...)
>
>>"Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
>>diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
>>remember ever using one (:-)
>
>I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
>enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
>trimmer, generator, etc).
><https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>

One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
length of time.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:00:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>(chomp...)
>>>
>>>>"Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
>>>>diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
>>>>remember ever using one (:-)
>>>
>>>I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
>>>enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
>>>trimmer, generator, etc).
>>><https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
>
>>One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
>>leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
>>length of time.
>
>That's true with the new and improved fuels that contain ethanol. The
>fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely burn in a few
>months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the olefins will clog
>everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly powder. Here's
>the powder I found in a generator:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
>The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which eventually rusts
>the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes the rubber
>gaskets to swell and/or harden.
>
>My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the overpriced
>non-ethanol fuels:
><https://trufuel50.com>
><https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
><https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
>
>I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in one of my better
>chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and probably needs
>to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new rubber parts.
>
>Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my generator has to be
>replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the generator. I dump
>the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
>
>"The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small Engines"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
>
>Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really bothers me.

Somewhere I read that "real" gasoline is available as "aviation gas",
avgas, which is essentially pure gasoline with tetra-ethyl lead as the
anti knock additive although some is low lead (LL) and I think that
100 octane is common. And I came across "racing gasoline" also

I think if I were using small gasoline engines to any extent I would
look into it.

I wonder whether this might be a "developed" country problem as we
used small gas engines extensively, chain saws and outboard motors
mostly, in remote areas of Indonesia with no problems. (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:00:16 AM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:

> >One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
> >leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
> >length of time.
> That's true with the new and improved fuels that contain ethanol. The
> fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely burn in a few
> months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the olefins will clog
> everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly powder. Here's
> the powder I found in a generator:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
> The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which eventually rusts
> the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes the rubber
> gaskets to swell and/or harden.
>
> My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the overpriced
> non-ethanol fuels:
> <https://trufuel50.com>
> <https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
> <https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
>
> I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in one of my better
> chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and probably needs
> to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new rubber parts.
>
> Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my generator has to be
> replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the generator. I dump
> the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
>
> "The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small Engines"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
>
> Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really bothers me.
> --

Ethanol is a problem in our industry. We found out the hard way that high ethanol fuels eat not only certain types of seals (especially silicone IIRC, Viton is best), but we were also were using an epoxy that worked well in non-ethanol fuels but started to disintegrate in the presence of ethanol fuels _vapors_ - interestingly, it survived immersion on the same ethanol fuel..

As far as leaving gas in small engines, fuel stabilizer usually works, but not always depending on the fuel additives and the stabilizer brand -YMMV