On 5/28/2022 1:57 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!

:-)

One of my bike routes to work passed an elementary school in a low
income neighborhood.

At one point, I came into a roll of silver dollars - a pretty rare thing
these days. (They had been saved by my father, years and years ago.)

A few times, as I rode by that school, I flung a silver dollar onto the
playground for some kid to find.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/28/2022 1:02 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 10:54:24 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/26/2022 11:54 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>> I went a step beyond you. I read about the European style of utensil use
>> before our first trip to continental Europe and made an effort to learn
>> their way. Yes, there's some logic to it - two hands, two utensils, no
>> juggling.
>>
>> But it still seemed weird. Bringing sharp fork tines toward my face with
>> my non-dominant hand? That's dangerous! And holding the fork concave
>> downward? That's a violation of elementary geometry! Do they do the same
>> with a soup spoon?
>>
>> Ultimately I decided it was most sensible to rotate the entire system
>> 180 degrees about the forward axis. My fork now stays in my right hand,
>> and is used concave upward so it works for, say, scooping mashed
>> potatoes. My knife stays in my left hand, and I slice meat using my left
>> hand. There's no juggling of utensils, so it's efficient.
>>
>> I now score a new KOM for eating most of my meals, and we all know how
>> important that it! But I still have to wait for my wife to finish.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> I ended up like you. Fork in the dominant hand and knife for cutting in the off hand. And fork tines pointed up. I saw as you the way it was done in Europe. Fork in the non dominant hand? Tines down? Maybe sticking a piece of meat on the plate and maneuvering it to the mouth is easier with tines down. But for shoveling in mashed potatoes and peas and sticking green beans, tines up seems better.
>

Humans are amazingly adaptable. Riders easily master fixed
gear, coaster brake, lighten up to shift internal gearbox or
don't for derailleur systems, twist, top shift, triggers (SA
and Shimano type), STi/Ergo/DoubleTap, downtube, lever
action fronts, all of it. A day at most to settle in for any
of those.

And humans worldwide manage eating mostly daily, if not
multiple times per day, with all manner of shapes, designs,
etiquette for utensils or not. All of it is cultural and
learned. To argue that fork on the right is inherently
better than hashi is silly. Any 3 year old in Japan would
laugh at your cultural insularity.

To the earlier comment about 'metalworking', hands and
knives sufficed at table for our first 40,000+ years or so.
Forks are very recent, 3~400 years only.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/28/2022 2:13 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 7:52:38 AM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:56:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>>>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>>>>>>>> faster?
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>>>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>>>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>>>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>>>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>>>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>>>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>>>>>
>>>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>>>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>>>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>>>>>> today you do it without thinking.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>>>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>>>> (:-)
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>>>
>>> Lou
>> I'm guessing, just guessing, that chopsticks were developed due to economics. No one in Asia had any money to buy, make, metal eating utensils. And everyone has to eat. So cheapest way to eat was to use some easy to find/make sticks. Or eat with your hands and fingers. Which is likely the way everyone else in the world did. Before metalworking and metal utensils became the mainstay.
>
> I always thought it had something to do with hygiene. Throw them away after you were done. I could be wrong.
>
> Lou
>

I used to carry mine in a leather case, inside pocket of my
jacket. Pretty rosewood set (gift). IIRC disposables are a
very modern variant, post-Meiji. Yep here you are:

https://jacul.blogspot.com/2006/11/o-hashi-history.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:09:13 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/28/2022 1:57 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!
>
> :-)
>
> One of my bike routes to work passed an elementary school in a low
> income neighborhood.
>
> At one point, I came into a roll of silver dollars - a pretty rare thing
> these days. (They had been saved by my father, years and years ago.)
>
> A few times, as I rode by that school, I flung a silver dollar onto the
> playground for some kid to find.
>
>

Hmm, I wonder if this work here also. There was a time that we got a symbolic silver dollar if a patent of yours was granted in the US. I was cleaning up a drawer and found these:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ga9yqMY4SYTk1gZi6

Are they worth anything?

Lou

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 11:05:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:09:13 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/28/2022 1:57 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > One of my bike routes to work passed an elementary school in a low
> > income neighborhood.
> >
> > At one point, I came into a roll of silver dollars - a pretty rare thing
> > these days. (They had been saved by my father, years and years ago.)
> >
> > A few times, as I rode by that school, I flung a silver dollar onto the
> > playground for some kid to find.
> >
> >
> Hmm, I wonder if this work here also. There was a time that we got a symbolic silver dollar if a patent of yours was granted in the US. I was cleaning up a drawer and found these:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ga9yqMY4SYTk1gZi6
>
> Are they worth anything?

Liberty head are around $150 each. The much more rare Eisenhower silver dollar is about $350.

On 5/28/2022 2:05 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:09:13 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/28/2022 1:57 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> One of my bike routes to work passed an elementary school in a low
>> income neighborhood.
>>
>> At one point, I came into a roll of silver dollars - a pretty rare thing
>> these days. (They had been saved by my father, years and years ago.)
>>
>> A few times, as I rode by that school, I flung a silver dollar onto the
>> playground for some kid to find.
>>
>>
>
>
> Hmm, I wonder if this work here also. There was a time that we got a symbolic silver dollar if a patent of yours was granted in the US. I was cleaning up a drawer and found these:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ga9yqMY4SYTk1gZi6
>
> Are they worth anything?

It's almost certainly worth the trouble to look up the values online.

My dad was a pretty avid coin collector. From those days, I know some
coins go for astonishing prices.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 2:13:06 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 7:52:38 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:56:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> > > > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > > > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell....@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> > > > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> > > > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> > > > >> >> >> Snipped
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> Cheers
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >Lou
> > > > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> > > > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> > > > >> >> faster?
> > > > >> >> --
> > > > >> >> Cheers,
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> John B.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> > > > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> > > > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> > > > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> > > > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> > > > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> > > > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> > > > >
> > > > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> > > > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> > > > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> > > > >> today you do it without thinking.
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> John B.
> > > > >
> > > > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> > > > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> > > > (:-)
> > > > --
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > John B.
> > > Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> > >
> > > Lou
> > I'm guessing, just guessing, that chopsticks were developed due to economics. No one in Asia had any money to buy, make, metal eating utensils. And everyone has to eat. So cheapest way to eat was to use some easy to find/make sticks. Or eat with your hands and fingers. Which is likely the way everyone else in the world did. Before metalworking and metal utensils became the mainstay.
> I always thought it had something to do with hygiene. Throw them away after you were done. I could be wrong.
>
> Lou

Maybe, But I can't imagine cleaning eating utensils is that onerous of a task. So onerous you would throw them away instead of washing them? I am going to stick with my economic explanation. Cheap to make wood chopsticks. Expensive to buy metal utensils.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 3:57:34 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:44:44 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:12:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> On 5/26/2022 8:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> >> >> By your analogy, we should be barely riding bikes at all. After all,
> >> >> most people do it only a few times per year. By "voting" with their
> >> >> pocket books for cars instead of bikes, they're saying biking is not
> >> >> worth doing.
> >> >
> >> >You missed my prior responses to John about the benefits of bicycling being exercise.
> >> Yes, I read that and neglected to reply. But yes cycling is a form of
> >> exercise... albeit not a very good form.
> >
> >I'd argue with that one. Bicycling is very aerobic. And helps improve leg muscles. Although as you state, not weight bearing, so no bone improvement.
> >
> But not as good as running or jogging, or even walking if you do it at
> a military marching rate. Try it, 3 MPH for, well say 5 miles, every
> morning before breakfast (:-)

That would take 1 hour 40 minutes. That is awfully slow. I used to walk 3/4 mile to the bus stop. Took 10 minutes. Pace of 4.5 mph. Not a fast or brisk speed. Just a walking pace. A steady walking pace. One foot in front of the other. Over and over and over again. No dilly dallying. But no gasping and breathing through the mouth. All nose breathing.

>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 4:11:19 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 22:52:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:56:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
> >> > On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> > >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> > >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >> > >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >> > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell....@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> > >> >> >> > On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> > >> >> >> Snipped
> >> > >> >> >> > > But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
> >> > >> >> >> > > pile? Why?
> >> > >> >> >> > Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
> >> > >> >> >> Snipped
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> Cheers
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >Lou
> >> > >> >> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
> >> > >> >> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
> >> > >> >> faster?
> >> > >> >> --
> >> > >> >> Cheers,
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> John B.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> >> > >> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
> >> > >> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
> >> > >> >Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
> >> > >> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
> >> > >> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
> >> > >> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
> >> > >
> >> > >No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
> >> > >> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
> >> > >> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
> >> > >> today you do it without thinking.
> >> > >> --
> >> > >> Cheers,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> John B.
> >> > >
> >> > >Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> >> > Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
> >> > (:-)
> >> > --
> >> > Cheers,
> >> >
> >> > John B.
> >> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food.. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> >I'm guessing, just guessing, that chopsticks were developed due to economics. No one in Asia had any money to buy, make, metal eating utensils. And everyone has to eat. So cheapest way to eat was to use some easy to find/make sticks. Or eat with your hands and fingers. Which is likely the way everyone else in the world did. Before metalworking and metal utensils became the mainstay.
> Out of curiosity I googled it and it seems that the Chinese were using
> "chop sticks" since, at least, 1200 BC and by 500 AD they were common
> from Japan to Vietnam.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

OK. I think your 1200BC date gives credence to my make your chopsticks out of local wood laying around over paying money for extravagantly expensive metal utensils. I don't think metal working in 1200BC was too common or cheap. Or eat with your fingers if you don't want to use chopsticks. And I can believe China influenced the other south east Asia countries.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/28/2022 1:02 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 10:54:24 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 5/26/2022 11:54 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife.. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
> >> I went a step beyond you. I read about the European style of utensil use
> >> before our first trip to continental Europe and made an effort to learn
> >> their way. Yes, there's some logic to it - two hands, two utensils, no
> >> juggling.
> >>
> >> But it still seemed weird. Bringing sharp fork tines toward my face with
> >> my non-dominant hand? That's dangerous! And holding the fork concave
> >> downward? That's a violation of elementary geometry! Do they do the same
> >> with a soup spoon?
> >>
> >> Ultimately I decided it was most sensible to rotate the entire system
> >> 180 degrees about the forward axis. My fork now stays in my right hand,
> >> and is used concave upward so it works for, say, scooping mashed
> >> potatoes. My knife stays in my left hand, and I slice meat using my left
> >> hand. There's no juggling of utensils, so it's efficient.
> >>
> >> I now score a new KOM for eating most of my meals, and we all know how
> >> important that it! But I still have to wait for my wife to finish.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > I ended up like you. Fork in the dominant hand and knife for cutting in the off hand. And fork tines pointed up. I saw as you the way it was done in Europe. Fork in the non dominant hand? Tines down? Maybe sticking a piece of meat on the plate and maneuvering it to the mouth is easier with tines down. But for shoveling in mashed potatoes and peas and sticking green beans, tines up seems better.
> >
> Humans are amazingly adaptable. Riders easily master fixed
> gear, coaster brake, lighten up to shift internal gearbox or
> don't for derailleur systems, twist, top shift, triggers (SA
> and Shimano type), STi/Ergo/DoubleTap, downtube, lever
> action fronts, all of it. A day at most to settle in for any
> of those.
>
> And humans worldwide manage eating mostly daily, if not
> multiple times per day, with all manner of shapes, designs,
> etiquette for utensils or not. All of it is cultural and
> learned. To argue that fork on the right is inherently
> better than hashi is silly. Any 3 year old in Japan would
> laugh at your cultural insularity.
>
> To the earlier comment about 'metalworking', hands and
> knives sufficed at table for our first 40,000+ years or so.
> Forks are very recent, 3~400 years only.

But was it one knife for the whole table to cut off individual sized pieces of meat for each eater? Or did each person at the table get their own separate knife? Buying one knife for the whole family to use for everything makes sense given the cost of metal working. But buying a separate knife for every person in the house? That might get very expensive. Man, wife, four kids. Six knives for one family?

> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 28 May 2022 16:34:59 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 3:57:34 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:44:44 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:12:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> On 5/26/2022 8:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>> >> >> By your analogy, we should be barely riding bikes at all. After all,
>> >> >> most people do it only a few times per year. By "voting" with their
>> >> >> pocket books for cars instead of bikes, they're saying biking is not
>> >> >> worth doing.
>> >> >
>> >> >You missed my prior responses to John about the benefits of bicycling being exercise.
>> >> Yes, I read that and neglected to reply. But yes cycling is a form of
>> >> exercise... albeit not a very good form.
>> >
>> >I'd argue with that one. Bicycling is very aerobic. And helps improve leg muscles. Although as you state, not weight bearing, so no bone improvement.
>> >
>> But not as good as running or jogging, or even walking if you do it at
>> a military marching rate. Try it, 3 MPH for, well say 5 miles, every
>> morning before breakfast (:-)
>
>That would take 1 hour 40 minutes. That is awfully slow. I used to walk 3/4 mile to the bus stop. Took 10 minutes. Pace of 4.5 mph. Not a fast or brisk speed. Just a walking pace. A steady walking pace. One foot in front of the other. Over and over and over again. No dilly dallying. But no gasping and breathing through the mouth. All nose breathing.

All I can say is that about 3 mph has been the standard marching rate
since Roman days. I assume that it has been pretty well tested.

I would ask, was your walk a measured 3/4 mile? You walked it in 10
minutes? By the clock? And more important could you have kept it up
for several hours?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/28/2022 2:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 11:05:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:09:13 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 5/28/2022 1:57 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> One of my bike routes to work passed an elementary school in a low
>>> income neighborhood.
>>>
>>> At one point, I came into a roll of silver dollars - a pretty rare thing
>>> these days. (They had been saved by my father, years and years ago.)
>>>
>>> A few times, as I rode by that school, I flung a silver dollar onto the
>>> playground for some kid to find.
>>>
>>>
>> Hmm, I wonder if this work here also. There was a time that we got a symbolic silver dollar if a patent of yours was granted in the US. I was cleaning up a drawer and found these:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ga9yqMY4SYTk1gZi6
>>
>> Are they worth anything?
>
> Liberty head are around $150 each. The much more rare Eisenhower silver dollar is about $350.
>

I bought rolls of Morgans of average circulated quality two
years ago at $26. Anywhere from under $30 up to a few
hundred each but I am not a coin expert. Consult an actual
expert.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 5:12:52 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/28/2022 2:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 11:05:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:09:13 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 5/28/2022 1:57 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!
> >>>
> >>> :-)
> >>>
> >>> One of my bike routes to work passed an elementary school in a low
> >>> income neighborhood.
> >>>
> >>> At one point, I came into a roll of silver dollars - a pretty rare thing
> >>> these days. (They had been saved by my father, years and years ago.)
> >>>
> >>> A few times, as I rode by that school, I flung a silver dollar onto the
> >>> playground for some kid to find.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Hmm, I wonder if this work here also. There was a time that we got a symbolic silver dollar if a patent of yours was granted in the US. I was cleaning up a drawer and found these:
> >>
> >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ga9yqMY4SYTk1gZi6
> >>
> >> Are they worth anything?
> >
> > Liberty head are around $150 each. The much more rare Eisenhower silver dollar is about $350.
> >
> I bought rolls of Morgans of average circulated quality two
> years ago at $26. Anywhere from under $30 up to a few
> hundred each but I am not a coin expert. Consult an actual
> expert.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I did some research and it depends of the date of issue but on average it was about 30-35 euro’s a piece.

Lou

On 5/28/2022 6:29 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 2:13:06 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 7:52:38 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:56:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>>>>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>>>>>>>>> faster?
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>>>>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>>>>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>>>>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>>>>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>>>>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>>>>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>>>>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>>>>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>>>>>>> today you do it without thinking.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>>>>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>>>>> (:-)
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> I'm guessing, just guessing, that chopsticks were developed due to economics. No one in Asia had any money to buy, make, metal eating utensils. And everyone has to eat. So cheapest way to eat was to use some easy to find/make sticks. Or eat with your hands and fingers. Which is likely the way everyone else in the world did. Before metalworking and metal utensils became the mainstay.
>> I always thought it had something to do with hygiene. Throw them away after you were done. I could be wrong.
>>
>> Lou
>
> Maybe, But I can't imagine cleaning eating utensils is that onerous of a task. So onerous you would throw them away instead of washing them? I am going to stick with my economic explanation. Cheap to make wood chopsticks. Expensive to buy metal utensils.
>

Hashi clean easier & better than forks.

For a better comparison consider throw-away hashi vs
throw-away forks.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:55:05 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/28/2022 6:29 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 2:13:06 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 7:52:38 AM UTC+2, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:56:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Op vrijdag 27 mei 2022 om 07:51:00 UTC+2 schreef John B.:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:19:09 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:45:26 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 11:48:40 p.m. UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:29:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But my original question was "why or how" So a Di2 is the top of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pile? Why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because you just push a little button, click, and BOOM BANG THANK YOU MA'AM, the shift happens. That's why.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Snipped
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Di2 but I do know that on my two bicycles with 9-speed Campagnolo Mirage Ergo brake/shift levers that I shift much more frequently than I do on the bicycles with downtube or even bar-end shift levers. This is even more so when riding up hills on my loaded touring bike. This reduces fatigue from riding in a slightly too heavy a gear and that means that I can ride more miles/kilometers with less effort.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I imaging that the electronic shifting components would allow for easier and faster shifting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is also my experience and I can confirm that Di2 takes this to the next level.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>>> Well.... if electric shifting is easier and faster then logically
>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't one ride an electric bicycle as it is much easier and
>>>>>>>>>> faster?
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The electric powered bike takes away the benefit of cycling. The exercise. So why reduce the benefits? Electric bikes do get you to your destination faster and easier. So the less exercise detriment is alleviated with the benefit of arriving earlier and less sweaty at work. Riding an electric bike to work makes sense because the benefits of arriving quicker and more ready to work outweigh the detriment of being tired, sweaty from the exercise of cycling to work. Shifting, being forced to shift when the terrain changes, is one of the detriments, negatives of cycling. So an electric shifter makes this negative easier. And no, shifting is not a big negative. But if you could ride and never shift, you would. Shifting adds no benefit to a bike ride. So if you can eliminate or reduce the superfluous portions of cycling with electronic shifting, why wouldn't you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>>>>>>>> Di2 easier.... electric powered bike takes away the benefit of
>>>>>>>> cycling. The exercise. One might ask... easier? Or Exercise? (:-)
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I am aware some people love manual transmissions. Particularly in sports cars. Having the stick in their hands. Shoving the clutch in with their left foot. Yanking the stick into its shifting gate. Revving the car to the redline before manually shifting. But all of that is very different from normal driving and shifting of cars. Automatics, easy shifting, is what people want and buy with their money.
>>>>>>>> You make it sound like some sort of "Big Deal" but the reality was
>>>>>>>> that "back in the day" no one gave much thought to shifting, or
>>>>>>>> stepping on the clutch, or the throttle. It was all automatic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one today gives much thought to shifting STI or Ergo. Its all just automatic. Flip your fingers and the shift happens. BUT, once you experience Di2, you suddenly realize their is a better, easier, more efficient way to shift bicycle gears. So just like with manual and automatic transmissions in cars, once you drive an automatic and realize how much easier it is than a manual, you want it. Even though you managed just fine with the manual and did not find it burdensome at all. The automatic transmission is just easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just as today you (I hope) don't give any thought about how to hold a
>>>>>>>> fork. When you were a little chap it might nave been an almost
>>>>>>>> impossible task to learn how, but you overcame the difficulties and
>>>>>>>> today you do it without thinking.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today, I do not give any more thought to holding a fork and other utensils. But about 30 years ago I did think about it. After spending a summer in Europe, I realized my utensil use was very wrong. Coarse. Barbaric. American. In Europe I observed people eating with two utensils. Fork and knife. One in each hand. Prior to that, I ate the American way. Fork to scoop up the food and fork to cut the meat and all other food needing cutting. So I changed my ways after observing the correct utensil holding method. And now eat with a fork and knife in my hands. And look down upon, but make no comments, on the uncouth way most people dine.
>>>>>> Well (:-) come to Asia and eat with "hashi" (chopsticks) or a spoon
>>>>>> (:-)
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>> Always thought that using chopstick is really a clumsy way to eat food. Like using downtube shifter to change gear. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> I'm guessing, just guessing, that chopsticks were developed due to economics. No one in Asia had any money to buy, make, metal eating utensils. And everyone has to eat. So cheapest way to eat was to use some easy to find/make sticks. Or eat with your hands and fingers. Which is likely the way everyone else in the world did. Before metalworking and metal utensils became the mainstay.
>>> I always thought it had something to do with hygiene. Throw them away after you were done. I could be wrong.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> Maybe, But I can't imagine cleaning eating utensils is that onerous of a task. So onerous you would throw them away instead of washing them? I am going to stick with my economic explanation. Cheap to make wood chopsticks. Expensive to buy metal utensils.
>>
>
>Hashi clean easier & better than forks.
>
>For a better comparison consider throw-away hashi vs
>throw-away forks.

Well, we got 'em over here. I saw one just today on my morning walk.
White plastic thing :-)
--
Cheers,

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 11:20:53 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 28 May 2022 16:34:59 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 3:57:34 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 27 May 2022 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:44:44 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:12:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> >> On 5/26/2022 8:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
> >> >> >> By your analogy, we should be barely riding bikes at all. After all,
> >> >> >> most people do it only a few times per year. By "voting" with their
> >> >> >> pocket books for cars instead of bikes, they're saying biking is not
> >> >> >> worth doing.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You missed my prior responses to John about the benefits of bicycling being exercise.
> >> >> Yes, I read that and neglected to reply. But yes cycling is a form of
> >> >> exercise... albeit not a very good form.
> >> >
> >> >I'd argue with that one. Bicycling is very aerobic. And helps improve leg muscles. Although as you state, not weight bearing, so no bone improvement.
> >> >
> >> But not as good as running or jogging, or even walking if you do it at
> >> a military marching rate. Try it, 3 MPH for, well say 5 miles, every
> >> morning before breakfast (:-)
> >
> >That would take 1 hour 40 minutes. That is awfully slow. I used to walk 3/4 mile to the bus stop. Took 10 minutes. Pace of 4.5 mph. Not a fast or brisk speed. Just a walking pace. A steady walking pace. One foot in front of the other. Over and over and over again. No dilly dallying. But no gasping and breathing through the mouth. All nose breathing.
> All I can say is that about 3 mph has been the standard marching rate
> since Roman days. I assume that it has been pretty well tested.
>
> I would ask, was your walk a measured 3/4 mile? You walked it in 10
> minutes? By the clock? And more important could you have kept it up
> for several hours?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Yes it was measured by my cycle computer. I also rode the same route as my walking. I did look at my watch when I started and finished. And I think it was right around 10 minutes. I can't guarantee that part like I can the distance. My memory of watch watching may be off. Yes I could have walked at that pace all day long. I was not breathing hard. Heart was not beating too quickly. Or quick at all.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 23:58:34 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 11:20:53 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 May 2022 16:34:59 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 3:57:34 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 27 May 2022 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:44:44 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:12:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> >> On 5/26/2022 8:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Analogy time. Di2 electric shifters are kind of like automatic transmissions in cars. Easier. For the vast majority of cars and people, moving the manual stick shifter was not a benefit. No one wanted to do it. And based on car sales today, almost every single car sold has an automatic transmission. No manuals sold anymore. Or even manufactured anymore. People chose with their pocket books to get easier shifting cars. Di2 electronic shifting bikes is the same.
>> >> >> >> By your analogy, we should be barely riding bikes at all. After all,
>> >> >> >> most people do it only a few times per year. By "voting" with their
>> >> >> >> pocket books for cars instead of bikes, they're saying biking is not
>> >> >> >> worth doing.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >You missed my prior responses to John about the benefits of bicycling being exercise.
>> >> >> Yes, I read that and neglected to reply. But yes cycling is a form of
>> >> >> exercise... albeit not a very good form.
>> >> >
>> >> >I'd argue with that one. Bicycling is very aerobic. And helps improve leg muscles. Although as you state, not weight bearing, so no bone improvement.
>> >> >
>> >> But not as good as running or jogging, or even walking if you do it at
>> >> a military marching rate. Try it, 3 MPH for, well say 5 miles, every
>> >> morning before breakfast (:-)
>> >
>> >That would take 1 hour 40 minutes. That is awfully slow. I used to walk 3/4 mile to the bus stop. Took 10 minutes. Pace of 4.5 mph. Not a fast or brisk speed. Just a walking pace. A steady walking pace. One foot in front of the other. Over and over and over again. No dilly dallying. But no gasping and breathing through the mouth. All nose breathing.
>> All I can say is that about 3 mph has been the standard marching rate
>> since Roman days. I assume that it has been pretty well tested.
>>
>> I would ask, was your walk a measured 3/4 mile? You walked it in 10
>> minutes? By the clock? And more important could you have kept it up
>> for several hours?
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Yes it was measured by my cycle computer. I also rode the same route as my walking. I did look at my watch when I started and finished. And I think it was right around 10 minutes. I can't guarantee that part like I can the distance. My memory of watch watching may be off. Yes I could have walked at that pace all day long. I was not breathing hard. Heart was not beating too quickly. Or quick at all.

Well it's not a big drama but the standard marching rate is about 116
beats a minute (it does vary a bid depending on the army) with a 30
inch pace. From the Roman Legions, 509 BC, and I believe up to the
present that's been what was/is used. There must be a reason.

AND, I just came across the following:
In 1916 two companies from the 4th Missouri Infantry marched a
distance of 45 miles in 15 hours during the Mexican Border War. The
march broke all known marching records for US troops.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 8:22:48 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 5:12:52 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/28/2022 2:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 11:05:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:09:13 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>> On 5/28/2022 1:57 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!
> > >>>
> > >>> :-)
> > >>>
> > >>> One of my bike routes to work passed an elementary school in a low
> > >>> income neighborhood.
> > >>>
> > >>> At one point, I came into a roll of silver dollars - a pretty rare thing
> > >>> these days. (They had been saved by my father, years and years ago.)
> > >>>
> > >>> A few times, as I rode by that school, I flung a silver dollar onto the
> > >>> playground for some kid to find.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> Hmm, I wonder if this work here also. There was a time that we got a symbolic silver dollar if a patent of yours was granted in the US. I was cleaning up a drawer and found these:
> > >>
> > >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ga9yqMY4SYTk1gZi6
> > >>
> > >> Are they worth anything?
> > >
> > > Liberty head are around $150 each. The much more rare Eisenhower silver dollar is about $350.
> > >
> > I bought rolls of Morgans of average circulated quality two
> > years ago at $26. Anywhere from under $30 up to a few
> > hundred each but I am not a coin expert. Consult an actual
> > expert.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> I did some research and it depends of the date of issue but on average it was about 30-35 euro’s a piece.
>
> Lou

At todays prices the cost of just the silver in a silver dolar is $15. The photos you showed were collecots grade silver dollars and hence were worth quite a bit more. Especially with Biden's destruction of the US economy.

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 9:57:41 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 8:22:48 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 5:12:52 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 5/28/2022 2:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 11:05:32 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > >> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:09:13 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>> On 5/28/2022 1:57 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Huh. Maybe because I am a greedy self centered person, I had never ever thought of leaving a penny or any other coin on the ground for a kid to find. Now you are going to make me fret and ponder over this the next time I see a coin on the ground. Dang nab it!!!!!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> :-)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> One of my bike routes to work passed an elementary school in a low
> > > >>> income neighborhood.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> At one point, I came into a roll of silver dollars - a pretty rare thing
> > > >>> these days. (They had been saved by my father, years and years ago.)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> A few times, as I rode by that school, I flung a silver dollar onto the
> > > >>> playground for some kid to find.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >> Hmm, I wonder if this work here also. There was a time that we got a symbolic silver dollar if a patent of yours was granted in the US. I was cleaning up a drawer and found these:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ga9yqMY4SYTk1gZi6
> > > >>
> > > >> Are they worth anything?
> > > >
> > > > Liberty head are around $150 each. The much more rare Eisenhower silver dollar is about $350.
> > > >
> > > I bought rolls of Morgans of average circulated quality two
> > > years ago at $26. Anywhere from under $30 up to a few
> > > hundred each but I am not a coin expert. Consult an actual
> > > expert.
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > I did some research and it depends of the date of issue but on average it was about 30-35 euro’s a piece.
> >
> > Lou
> At todays prices the cost of just the silver in a silver dolar is $15. The photos you showed were collecots grade silver dollars and hence were worth quite a bit more. Especially with Biden's destruction of the US economy.

Tommy, silver was MUCH higher when Trump was in office. On August 1, 2020, silver was $28.44 per ounce. On January 1, 2021 (Trump was still in office, just 5 days before his attempted Coup) silver was $26.90. And today Joe has brought silver down to a mere $21.78.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/SI%3DF?p=SI%3DF