On 5/26/2023 12:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:21:45 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer components would make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
>>>
>>> Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning of frames, bikes
>>> and components.
>>>
>>> If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in hell are you
>>> doing all the churning?
>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
>
> Krygowski doesn't even understand the concept of looking for a better ride.

OK, we have "When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer
components would make me ride any better..."

followed by "Krygowski doesn't even understand the concept of looking
for a better ride."

Surely I'm not the only one seeing a discrepancy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 26 May 2023 20:01:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/26/2023 3:21 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> > I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup, at least an
>> intermediate sized one like my Nissan Frontier. When we ever go down
>> to one vehicle it willl be a full size truck with a back seat.
>
>Two points:
>
>1) After driving a van for its load capacity, and realizing I rarely
>used it, I designed and built a utility trailer. I have the capacity
>when I need it, but I don't have the bulk and lousy gas mileage of a
>pickup to deal with.

I had a van once. Never again. I need a pickup. Something that seats 4
or 5 and at least a 5k towing capacity.

>2) If I had said "I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup" Tom
>would have said "Frank is trying to force everyone to buy pickups."
>Depending on his mood that day, John might have joined in on the claim -
>as would the Florida tricycle rider.
>
>Thank goodness there are still some more honest and intelligent people
>in this discussion group.

Too bad that you're not one of them.

On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>> >>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>> >>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>> >>>
>> >>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>> >>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>> >>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>> >>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>> >>> advertising.)
>> >>>
>> >>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>> >>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>> >>> against your one counterexample.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>> >
>> > If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>> >
>> > I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>> > range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>> > huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>> > (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>> > rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>> > longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>> > used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>> >
>> > I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>> > every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>> > Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>> > bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>> > saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>> > know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>> > production line."
>> >
>> > The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>> > away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>> > here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>> > bikes into the back along with two kids.
>> >
>> > I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>> > enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>> > two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>> >
>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>> of them and all that.
>>
>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>
>> In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>
>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
>Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>
>Lou

Well, people leap up and down and shot "Global Warming" and at the
same time nearly a quarter of U.S. families have 3... or more...
Autos.

Just think of the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions if U.S.
families were limited to one car (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/26/2023 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> We are in agreement about censorship but that is precisely what Krygowski wants ...

And where have I ever said that?

> - his opinion and his opinion alone is the only things that count.

I've repeated many times that this is supposed to be a _discussion_ group.

ISTM that those who are incapable of successfully explaining and
discussing their views, who fail to justify their views, are the ones at
fault. As one blatant example, those are the ones who lie about others'
statements.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 26 May 2023 08:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:25:43?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/26/2023 8:25 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 4:18:48?AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>> >>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>> >>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>> >>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>> >>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>> >>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>> >>>> advertising.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>> >>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>> >>>> against your one counterexample.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>> >> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>> >>
>> >> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>> >> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>> >> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>> >> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>> >> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>> >> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>> >> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>> >>
>> >> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>> >> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>> >> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>> >> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>> >> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>> >> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>> >> production line."
>> >>
>> >> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>> >> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>> >> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>> >> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>> >> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>> >> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>> >
>> > Ah well so your decision is influenced by the smooth talk of the sales person.
>> :-) Nice try! But the decision would have been the same if the salesman
>> had a severe stutter or spoke badly translated English. The deciding
>> factor was that the car was immediately available (at a time they were
>> hard to find); also, he took the initiative to get it in ASAP.
>>
>> FWIW, I probably would have preferred to buy the Chevy, to support
>> American manufacturing, but I was not interested in an undetermined
>> waiting time. As it turns out, this Kia has a feature not available on
>> the Chevy: A heat pump for winter heating, as opposed to pure resistance
>> heating. I'm happy to have that.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>Hmm, I am dissapointed you didn’t know about a heat pump. It is currently almost a must have.
>
>Lou

Internal Combustion vehicles have had "heat pump" heating, since 1929.
(:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/26/2023 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Just look at it as yet more evidence that poor old Frankie just isn't
> "right in the head" as my old Granny would have said. Just think of
> his fear of black pickups.. Can anyone that is terrified of the most
> common vehicle on the roads be completely sane?
> (The Ford F series is the most sold vehicle in U.S.)

More lies from the intellectually weak.

Find the post where I said I was afraid of black pickup trucks. There is
no such post.

When you try and fail, you really should have enough class to apologize.

But I know that won't happen.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/26/2023 6:58 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 12:05:23 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 26 May 2023 11:47:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/26/2023 8:30 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer components would
>>>>>>> make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning of frames, bikes
>>>>>> and components.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in hell are you
>>>>>> doing all the churning?
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And hell at least it’s cycling content! It’s not what I do it would be sad
>>>> world if we all did the same!
>>>
>>> I'd like to hear from Tom about his motivation. He mostly describes his
>>> frustrations and confusions about installing parts, which doesn't make
>>> the installation work sound pleasant to me. And he occasionally praises
>>> a new-to-him bike as being just wonderful ... until it's he says its not
>>> and he trades it for yet another.
>>>
>>> If churning is a satisfying pastime, fine. But he never expresses much
>>> satisfaction. It seems natural to wonder why he does it.
>>
>> ...if you're nosy.....
>
> Or, perhaps, yet another chance to demonstrate his superiority!
>
> "See, I still ride this old clunker and thus demonstrate my
> superiority!"

What do you ride, John?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/26/2023 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 08:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hmm, I am dissapointed you didn’t know about a heat pump. It is currently almost a must have.
>>
>> Lou
>
> Internal Combustion vehicles have had "heat pump" heating, since 1929.

No, John. Look up "heat pump."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 26 May 2023 20:39:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/26/2023 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> We are in agreement about censorship but that is precisely what Krygowski wants ...
>
>And where have I ever said that?
>
>> - his opinion and his opinion alone is the only things that count.
>
>I've repeated many times that this is supposed to be a _discussion_ group.
>
>ISTM that those who are incapable of successfully explaining and
>discussing their views, who fail to justify their views, are the ones at
>fault. As one blatant example, those are the ones who lie about others'
>statements.

In my opinion, arguing about, and trying to justify your opinions to
others indicates a lack of self-confidence. Self assured people don't
need reassurance from others.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 5/26/2023 11:44 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>
>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>> of them and all that.
>>
>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>
> I have no opinion about the situation for anyone east of the Atlantic,
> but I've said before (here and elsewhere) that I think most Americans
> would be better served with a plug in hybrid.
>
> I say that because most Americans do relatively short daily mileage (the
> U.S. DOT says 37 miles average) but due to the size of our country
> occasionally have to drive hundreds of miles. It's the latter that puts
> range anxiety into the minds of most people.
>
> A plug in hybrid would be doing all electric most of the time, but would
> allow longer trips with no worries.
>
> I ended up passing on the Chevy Volt (a plug in hybrid) because at least
> weekly we do trips of 100+ miles, which the Kia handles very well but
> the Volt would do half on gasoline. And we still use bikes for a lot of
> local shopping or other utility trips.
>
The problem here is plug in anything is lack of off street parking, for I
think 30/40% of population which means no plugging in to charge at home.

Which makes life not impossible but more difficult with a EV, or plug in
hybrid.

Roger Merriman

On Sat, 27 May 2023 03:38:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 26 May 2023 20:39:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 5/26/2023 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> We are in agreement about censorship but that is precisely what Krygowski wants ...
>>
>>And where have I ever said that?
>>
>>> - his opinion and his opinion alone is the only things that count.
>>
>>I've repeated many times that this is supposed to be a _discussion_ group.
>>
>>ISTM that those who are incapable of successfully explaining and
>>discussing their views, who fail to justify their views, are the ones at
>>fault. As one blatant example, those are the ones who lie about others'
>>statements.
>
>In my opinion, arguing about, and trying to justify your opinions to
>others indicates a lack of self-confidence. Self assured people don't
>need reassurance from others.

Interesting statement (:-)

It happens that I was perusing the Internet and I came across an
article relating to those who continuously criticize others and find
fault.

Like all psychological findings there is a lot of ambiguity but over
all it seems that these people may well be suffering from a deep sense
of inferiority and the constant criticism is simply a matter of trying
to convince themselves that others are really not "as good" as they
are. Not as intelligent, not as handsome or beautifully, not as
strong, not as anything that can make the individual feel superior.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 15:44:52 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>
>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>
>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>
>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>
>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>> production line."
>>>
>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>
>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>
>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>> of them and all that.
>>
>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>
>> In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>
>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> If I believed that gas and diesel pickups and their fuel weren't going
> to be around for a while, I'd go out and buy one right now.
>
Certainly some countries and indeed states and cities are either banning
new cars ICE cars or in some places ie cities centres are becoming car
free.

So yes it’s coming though it’s still a decade or so away, at closest and
clearly that’s only new cars and so on.

Roger Merriman

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>>
>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>
>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>
>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>> production line."
>>>>
>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>
>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>> of them and all that.
>>>
>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>
>>> In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>
>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing
>> people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>>
>> Lou
>
> Well, people leap up and down and shot "Global Warming" and at the
> same time nearly a quarter of U.S. families have 3... or more...
> Autos.
>
> Just think of the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions if U.S.
> families were limited to one car (:-)

Yup, had this discussion a few times over the years with folks with new
EV’s etc as to why I keep a old Volvo which is still clean enough for the
various clean air zones around uk.

Ie I do low miles 5/6K miles annually I don’t drive it in city often as
well why would you? And all the energy that went into building it is now
two decades ago!

Absolutely it uses fuel and so on to run and maintenance.

In short a new EV considering my usage would take years to to get to that
sort of carbon point, if not a decade or more.

Not sure financially for me a case can be made for EV I don’t do enough
miles, for that.

Roger Merrriman

On Sat, 27 May 2023 15:26:30 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 27 May 2023 03:38:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 26 May 2023 20:39:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 5/26/2023 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We are in agreement about censorship but that is precisely what Krygowski wants ...
>>>
>>>And where have I ever said that?
>>>
>>>> - his opinion and his opinion alone is the only things that count.
>>>
>>>I've repeated many times that this is supposed to be a _discussion_ group.
>>>
>>>ISTM that those who are incapable of successfully explaining and
>>>discussing their views, who fail to justify their views, are the ones at
>>>fault. As one blatant example, those are the ones who lie about others'
>>>statements.
>>
>>In my opinion, arguing about, and trying to justify your opinions to
>>others indicates a lack of self-confidence. Self assured people don't
>>need reassurance from others.
>
>Interesting statement (:-)
>
>It happens that I was perusing the Internet and I came across an
>article relating to those who continuously criticize others and find
>fault.
>
>Like all psychological findings there is a lot of ambiguity but over
>all it seems that these people may well be suffering from a deep sense
>of inferiority and the constant criticism is simply a matter of trying
>to convince themselves that others are really not "as good" as they
>are. Not as intelligent, not as handsome or beautifully, not as
>strong, not as anything that can make the individual feel superior.

In my opinion, arguing about somebody else's opinion when those
opinions have no effect on yourself is a sure sign of a lack of the
arguer's self security. Doing that is an attempt to justify his own
opinions. If the arguer can belittle the opinions that differ from his
own, it fallaciously validates his opinion. It's fallacious because
the opinions can be totally opposite and still be valid for the
individual.. or both can be invalid.

I note that up in this very thread, our resident narcissist asserts
that the failure to justify and therefore, seek reassurance of
opinions is a problem... for him, anyway.

On Sat, 27 May 2023 09:21:53 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 May 2023 15:44:52 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>>
>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>
>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>
>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>> production line."
>>>>
>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>
>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>> of them and all that.
>>>
>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don?t value
>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>
>>> In short I want a big estate car that?s easy to drive that I can throw
>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>
>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> If I believed that gas and diesel pickups and their fuel weren't going
>> to be around for a while, I'd go out and buy one right now.
>>
>Certainly some countries and indeed states and cities are either banning
>new cars ICE cars or in some places ie cities centres are becoming car
>free.

Indeed, and such places are not where I want to go, anyway.

>So yes it’s coming though it’s still a decade or so away, at closest and
>clearly that’s only new cars and so on.
>
>Roger Merriman

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>>
>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>
>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>
>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>> production line."
>>>>
>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>
>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>> of them and all that.
>>>
>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>
>>> In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>
>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing
>> people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>>
>> Lou
>
> +1
>
> I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup, at least an
> intermediate sized one like my Nissan Frontier. When we ever go down
> to one vehicle it willl be a full size truck with a back seat.
>

Can’t imagine much use for it for myself, I like and use that I can keep
stuff such as bikes under the covers so and is secured away.

Do get pick up’s now in uk but they are stuff like the Ford Raptor and
you’ll only get them in towns as peacock type cars, ie no chance of them
getting dirty ever!

Farmers around my folks use vans as well they always did, as that can load
carry plus is small enough to get places, places it can’t reach is
generally reached by quad bikes or foot.

Roger Merriman

On Sat, 27 May 2023 10:00:44 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>>>
>>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>>
>>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>>> production line."
>>>>>
>>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>>
>>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>>> of them and all that.
>>>>
>>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don?t value
>>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>>
>>>> In short I want a big estate car that?s easy to drive that I can throw
>>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>>
>>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing
>>> people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> +1
>>
>> I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup, at least an
>> intermediate sized one like my Nissan Frontier. When we ever go down
>> to one vehicle it willl be a full size truck with a back seat.
>>
>
>Can’t imagine much use for it for myself, I like and use that I can keep
>stuff such as bikes under the covers so and is secured away.
>
>Do get pick up’s now in uk but they are stuff like the Ford Raptor and
>you’ll only get them in towns as peacock type cars, ie no chance of them
>getting dirty ever!
>
>Farmers around my folks use vans as well they always did, as that can load
>carry plus is small enough to get places, places it can’t reach is
>generally reached by quad bikes or foot.
>
>Roger Merriman

When we do go to one vehicle, it'll have to seat five, have a six foot
long bed, tow a minimum of 5k lbs, and be capable of going long
distances without long stops. Full size gas or diesel pickup like the
Ford F-150 is required.

On Sat, 27 May 2023 05:48:39 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sat, 27 May 2023 15:26:30 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 27 May 2023 03:38:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 26 May 2023 20:39:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 5/26/2023 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We are in agreement about censorship but that is precisely what Krygowski wants ...
>>>>
>>>>And where have I ever said that?
>>>>
>>>>> - his opinion and his opinion alone is the only things that count.
>>>>
>>>>I've repeated many times that this is supposed to be a _discussion_ group.
>>>>
>>>>ISTM that those who are incapable of successfully explaining and
>>>>discussing their views, who fail to justify their views, are the ones at
>>>>fault. As one blatant example, those are the ones who lie about others'
>>>>statements.
>>>
>>>In my opinion, arguing about, and trying to justify your opinions to
>>>others indicates a lack of self-confidence. Self assured people don't
>>>need reassurance from others.
>>
>>Interesting statement (:-)
>>
>>It happens that I was perusing the Internet and I came across an
>>article relating to those who continuously criticize others and find
>>fault.
>>
>>Like all psychological findings there is a lot of ambiguity but over
>>all it seems that these people may well be suffering from a deep sense
>>of inferiority and the constant criticism is simply a matter of trying
>>to convince themselves that others are really not "as good" as they
>>are. Not as intelligent, not as handsome or beautifully, not as
>>strong, not as anything that can make the individual feel superior.
>
>In my opinion, arguing about somebody else's opinion when those
>opinions have no effect on yourself is a sure sign of a lack of the
>arguer's self security. Doing that is an attempt to justify his own
>opinions. If the arguer can belittle the opinions that differ from his
>own, it fallaciously validates his opinion. It's fallacious because
>the opinions can be totally opposite and still be valid for the
>individual.. or both can be invalid.
>
>I note that up in this very thread, our resident narcissist asserts
>that the failure to justify and therefore, seek reassurance of
>opinions is a problem... for him, anyway.

Well, I suspect that everyone has an opinion about almost everything.
But I also suspect that someone who feels his opinions are so
meaningful that one is justified in attempting to force their opinion
on others has mental problems.

Rather like the gun story. You state that you have a gun with you when
riding and Frank, immediately leaps into the fray, announcing that you
are bad, bad, bad, for having a gun.

All without knowing where you are ride, are there creatures that might
be dangerious - alligators? And so on. And even ignoring what I would
think would be the first argument for or against a gun... is it
legal".

But just as with the Afro guy, it's a public site so we are stuck with
him. But I suppose that is what filters and black lists are for (:-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 27 May 2023 09:21:53 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 May 2023 15:44:52 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>>
>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>
>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>
>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>> production line."
>>>>
>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>
>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>> of them and all that.
>>>
>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don?t value
>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>
>>> In short I want a big estate car that?s easy to drive that I can throw
>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>
>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> If I believed that gas and diesel pickups and their fuel weren't going
>> to be around for a while, I'd go out and buy one right now.
>>
>Certainly some countries and indeed states and cities are either banning
>new cars ICE cars or in some places ie cities centres are becoming car
>free.
>
>So yes it’s coming though it’s still a decade or so away, at closest and
>clearly that’s only new cars and so on.
>
>Roger Merriman

California has, I believed just passed a law that by 2035 half of all
heavy trucks and all autos sold in the state must be electric.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 27 May 2023 17:27:34 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 27 May 2023 05:48:39 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 27 May 2023 15:26:30 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 27 May 2023 03:38:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 26 May 2023 20:39:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 5/26/2023 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are in agreement about censorship but that is precisely what Krygowski wants ...
>>>>>
>>>>>And where have I ever said that?
>>>>>
>>>>>> - his opinion and his opinion alone is the only things that count.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've repeated many times that this is supposed to be a _discussion_ group.
>>>>>
>>>>>ISTM that those who are incapable of successfully explaining and
>>>>>discussing their views, who fail to justify their views, are the ones at
>>>>>fault. As one blatant example, those are the ones who lie about others'
>>>>>statements.
>>>>
>>>>In my opinion, arguing about, and trying to justify your opinions to
>>>>others indicates a lack of self-confidence. Self assured people don't
>>>>need reassurance from others.
>>>
>>>Interesting statement (:-)
>>>
>>>It happens that I was perusing the Internet and I came across an
>>>article relating to those who continuously criticize others and find
>>>fault.
>>>
>>>Like all psychological findings there is a lot of ambiguity but over
>>>all it seems that these people may well be suffering from a deep sense
>>>of inferiority and the constant criticism is simply a matter of trying
>>>to convince themselves that others are really not "as good" as they
>>>are. Not as intelligent, not as handsome or beautifully, not as
>>>strong, not as anything that can make the individual feel superior.
>>
>>In my opinion, arguing about somebody else's opinion when those
>>opinions have no effect on yourself is a sure sign of a lack of the
>>arguer's self security. Doing that is an attempt to justify his own
>>opinions. If the arguer can belittle the opinions that differ from his
>>own, it fallaciously validates his opinion. It's fallacious because
>>the opinions can be totally opposite and still be valid for the
>>individual.. or both can be invalid.
>>
>>I note that up in this very thread, our resident narcissist asserts
>>that the failure to justify and therefore, seek reassurance of
>>opinions is a problem... for him, anyway.
>
>Well, I suspect that everyone has an opinion about almost everything.
>But I also suspect that someone who feels his opinions are so
>meaningful that one is justified in attempting to force their opinion
>on others has mental problems.
>
>Rather like the gun story. You state that you have a gun with you when
>riding and Frank, immediately leaps into the fray, announcing that you
>are bad, bad, bad, for having a gun.
>
>All without knowing where you are ride, are there creatures that might
>be dangerious - alligators? And so on. And even ignoring what I would
>think would be the first argument for or against a gun... is it
>legal".
>
>But just as with the Afro guy, it's a public site so we are stuck with
>him. But I suppose that is what filters and black lists are for (:-(

Krygoski attempts to belittle the fact that I ride a trike, that I
ride mostly on bike trails, that I usually carry a gun, that I mostly
keep to myself and don't socailize, etc, etc.... I suspect his
purpose is to shame me...

I'm neither proud, nor ashamed of those things, it's merely me doing
what I choose to do. It's beyond his ability to understand that
because he is so totally dependant upon other people's opinions.

I am rather proud of my ability to ride the speeds and distances that
I do, but that's an entirely different issue.

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 10:21:24 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 5/26/2023 11:44 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>
> >> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
> >> of them and all that.
> >>
> >> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
> >> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
> >
> > I have no opinion about the situation for anyone east of the Atlantic,
> > but I've said before (here and elsewhere) that I think most Americans
> > would be better served with a plug in hybrid.
> >
> > I say that because most Americans do relatively short daily mileage (the
> > U.S. DOT says 37 miles average) but due to the size of our country
> > occasionally have to drive hundreds of miles. It's the latter that puts
> > range anxiety into the minds of most people.
> >
> > A plug in hybrid would be doing all electric most of the time, but would
> > allow longer trips with no worries.
> >
> > I ended up passing on the Chevy Volt (a plug in hybrid) because at least
> > weekly we do trips of 100+ miles, which the Kia handles very well but
> > the Volt would do half on gasoline. And we still use bikes for a lot of
> > local shopping or other utility trips.
> >
> The problem here is plug in anything is lack of off street parking, for I
> think 30/40% of population which means no plugging in to charge at home.
>
> Which makes life not impossible but more difficult with a EV, or plug in
> hybrid.
>
> Roger Merriman

That is one of the issues politicians don’t address up to now and still stating that after 2030 every new car should be an EV. I have my own driveway and charging point but in my direct neighborhood (1 km radius) there is no public charging point up to now and public charging is already a hassle. They better hurry up.

Lou

On Sat, 27 May 2023 09:46:56 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>>>
>>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>>
>>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>>> production line."
>>>>>
>>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>>
>>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>>> of them and all that.
>>>>
>>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don?t value
>>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>>
>>>> In short I want a big estate car that?s easy to drive that I can throw
>>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>>
>>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing
>>> people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> Well, people leap up and down and shot "Global Warming" and at the
>> same time nearly a quarter of U.S. families have 3... or more...
>> Autos.
>>
>> Just think of the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions if U.S.
>> families were limited to one car (:-)
>
>Yup, had this discussion a few times over the years with folks with new
>EV’s etc as to why I keep a old Volvo which is still clean enough for the
>various clean air zones around uk.
>
>Ie I do low miles 5/6K miles annually I don’t drive it in city often as
>well why would you? And all the energy that went into building it is now
>two decades ago!
>
>Absolutely it uses fuel and so on to run and maintenance.
>
>In short a new EV considering my usage would take years to to get to that
>sort of carbon point, if not a decade or more.
>
>Not sure financially for me a case can be made for EV I don’t do enough
>miles, for that.
>
>Roger Merrriman

Years ago a Science Fiction magazine had an editorial that asked if
all the cars in Los Angeles, California were electric what would
happen when everyone came home from work and plugged their battery
charger in.

The author had done a lot of estimating and specifying, I remember his
ideal "town car" was the size of a Volks Bug and had a 40 mile (to and
return) range. But according to his calculations there wasn't
sufficient electrical generation, at the time, in L.A. to handle the
load.

I'm neither pro or con about electric vehicles but I remember when
everyone was running up and down and clapping their hands and shouting
"Atomic Power Is The Answer!" "All our problems are solved!"
--
Cheers,

John B.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sat, 27 May 2023 10:00:44 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>>>> production line."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>>>> of them and all that.
>>>>>
>>>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don?t value
>>>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>>>
>>>>> In short I want a big estate car that?s easy to drive that I can throw
>>>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing
>>>> people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup, at least an
>>> intermediate sized one like my Nissan Frontier. When we ever go down
>>> to one vehicle it willl be a full size truck with a back seat.
>>>
>>
>> Can’t imagine much use for it for myself, I like and use that I can keep
>> stuff such as bikes under the covers so and is secured away.
>>
>> Do get pick up’s now in uk but they are stuff like the Ford Raptor and
>> you’ll only get them in towns as peacock type cars, ie no chance of them
>> getting dirty ever!
>>
>> Farmers around my folks use vans as well they always did, as that can load
>> carry plus is small enough to get places, places it can’t reach is
>> generally reached by quad bikes or foot.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> When we do go to one vehicle, it'll have to seat five, have a six foot
> long bed, tow a minimum of 5k lbs, and be capable of going long
> distances without long stops. Full size gas or diesel pickup like the
> Ford F-150 is required.
>
Certainly for myself being uk, all motorway services have chargers so long
trips are less of hassle than America which is even less universal chargers
and so on.

And realistically assuming it’s roughly on par with my car ie 400/500 miles
between fuelling then charging while I stop for a break doesn’t sound
problematic.

It’s more I’d need to go and find a charger both at home and visiting
wales, which is level of faff.

The F - 150 has EV versions which apparently is good stuff though it’s not
the type of vehicle I want or need.

Roger Merriman

On Sat, 27 May 2023 12:01:32 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 May 2023 10:00:44 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>>>>> production line."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>>>>> of them and all that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don?t value
>>>>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In short I want a big estate car that?s easy to drive that I can throw
>>>>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>>>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>>>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>>>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>>>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing
>>>>> people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup, at least an
>>>> intermediate sized one like my Nissan Frontier. When we ever go down
>>>> to one vehicle it willl be a full size truck with a back seat.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Can?t imagine much use for it for myself, I like and use that I can keep
>>> stuff such as bikes under the covers so and is secured away.
>>>
>>> Do get pick up?s now in uk but they are stuff like the Ford Raptor and
>>> you?ll only get them in towns as peacock type cars, ie no chance of them
>>> getting dirty ever!
>>>
>>> Farmers around my folks use vans as well they always did, as that can load
>>> carry plus is small enough to get places, places it can?t reach is
>>> generally reached by quad bikes or foot.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> When we do go to one vehicle, it'll have to seat five, have a six foot
>> long bed, tow a minimum of 5k lbs, and be capable of going long
>> distances without long stops. Full size gas or diesel pickup like the
>> Ford F-150 is required.
>>
>Certainly for myself being uk, all motorway services have chargers so long
>trips are less of hassle than America which is even less universal chargers
>and so on.
>
>And realistically assuming it’s roughly on par with my car ie 400/500 miles
>between fuelling then charging while I stop for a break doesn’t sound
>problematic.
>
>It’s more I’d need to go and find a charger both at home and visiting
>wales, which is level of faff.
>
>The F - 150 has EV versions which apparently is good stuff though it’s not
>the type of vehicle I want or need.

The EV F-150 is very expensive. It's range is not very good and it's
really bad if it has to carry or pull a load. Count me out on one of
them. I'll probably go diesel, because there's no possible way the
many diesel powered stuff is going to go electric.

>Roger Merriman

On 5/26/2023 7:37 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>>
>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>
>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>
>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>> production line."
>>>>
>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>
>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>> of them and all that.
>>>
>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>
>>> In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>
>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>>
>> Lou
>
> Well, people leap up and down and shot "Global Warming" and at the
> same time nearly a quarter of U.S. families have 3... or more...
> Autos.
>
> Just think of the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions if U.S.
> families were limited to one car (:-)
>
Plants love CO2 and if that's a 'pollutant' it also probably
affects world grain production which increases every year.
Where's the problem?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971