On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
> <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> When they are not in line to get to a charging station.

I am amazed at how quickly they are building Superchargers. My home town Frederick, MD had a bank of 8 chargers which would often be more than half full. Given the sharing of each charger between two "hoses", this means someone is not getting the most rapid charge rate. About 200 yards away they installed another bank of eight, 250 kW charging units.

A spot I sometimes charge on my way to the airport in Laural, MD, now has three stations of Superchargers while it used to have only one! Again, all the new ones are 250 kW with no sharing which will charge each car as quickly as possible.

It's funny to watch Larkin rage against the light. As BEVs take over transportation, when do you think Larkin will throw in the towel and acknowledge BEVs are the better solution? In many ways, they are the Jetson mobile doing everything but fly. Actually, I seem to recall the Jetson mobile leaving a trail of exhaust. I guess they weren't all that forward thinking.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...

More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors.. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers.. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?

Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.

Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:11:45 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>> >
>> > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>> >
>> > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>> >
>> > --
>> > Rich
>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
>
> Locomotives don't give a durn about "pickup speed fast". The generator/traction motor is all
> about avoiding the complication of a gearbox and clutch which is harder to do at such power
> levels with good reliability. If you've ever seen a locomotive or locomotives pull a mile
> long freight train from a dead stop, you would realize "fast" doesn't enter into the equation
> and that a clutch would be toast very quickly. Even a hydraulic clutch would need to be very
> large and dissipate a lot of heat.

Glad you read the part about needing starting torque and freight trains.

Long ago I toured general motor's EMD locomotive factory in IL. It was a fascinating plant with
largest of all machine tools. They eventually shifted new production to Kansas and Canada, then
the company got sold a bunch of times. I think the Canadian plant is gone now too. GM's
vehicles are trash, but their giant diesel engines are spot on.

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:15:48 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 4/13/2022 8:57 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
>> <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>
>> When they are not in line to get to a charging station.
>>
>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>
>> Some people enjoy alternating between max accel and max decel.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Can't recall ever lining up for one. Mostly around here they're not used
>very much, not that there's a shortage of EVs but most people charge at
>home.
>
>Businesses and public parking lots and state parks etc. often have them
>but don't tend to be able to figure out how to set the pricing on them
>or particularly care to they tend to be set at like $0 or 50 cents a
>kWh, depending, totally divorced from the price of gas or electricity
>for that matter.
>
>I think they tend to install them because they get a tax credit or
>legislation mandates it in the case of public facilities but nobody
>really understands the tech once it's installed or knows how to make any
>money off it or cares to figure out how, only Tesla's network seems to
>have accomplished that in a meaningful way.

EVs all about tax credits and climate nonsense. Absent those, there
wouldn't be any.

What happened to the Tesla semi? I'd think that truck drivers are too
smart to buy into that.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

bitrex <user@example.net> wrote in
news:5pN5K.130148$WZCa.25644@fx08.iad:

> On 4/13/2022 3:52 PM, RichD wrote:
>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>
> Biggest engine is always better than anything there's no
> replacement for displacement.
>
>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight
>> calculation?
>>
>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>
> NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT VRRRRRROOMM BRRRRRRR

There is an 8500HP funny car that launches to 100MPH in 0.8 sec.

8.2 liter displacement.

On 4/14/2022 11:29 AM, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:15:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>>> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>>> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
>>>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
>>>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
>>>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
>>>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
>>>
>>> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
>>> for niche applications e.g.
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
>>>
>>> Basically a city bus on rails.
>>>
>>> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
>>> service design it seems:
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
>> What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago.
>> They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended
>> use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train
>> standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a
>> fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive
>> a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will
>> obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia.
>>> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
>>> locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>
>> Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors
>> back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at
>> all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key?
>
> The motor turns at the RPM of the wheels. Even for an electric motor that is slow. So to get adequate torque at low speed the motor needs a large diameter. Compare to BEVs today where the motor is very compact, but turns at 9x the wheel rate which is much faster than the locomotive wheel rate. Some of the old steam engines had wheels tall as a man.
>
Those DD1s ran off about 600 volts DC, at the time the wire diameter for
the rotor & stator field coils must've been pretty large, too.

On 4/14/2022 11:22 AM, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:05:25 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>>
>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>>
>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Rich
>>>
>>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
>>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
>>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
>>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
>>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
>> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
>> for niche applications e.g.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
>>
>> Basically a city bus on rails.
>>
>> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
>> service design it seems:
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
>>
>> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
>> locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>
>
> My dad was a dispatcher on the CSX railroad and complained about the unreliable Budd cars. Seems they often broke down and the headache of a blocked track was his. They were used for commuter trains because they could be configured into different sizes easily with one driver and could even driven by one car if the others broke down, which was not uncommon according to my dad. Some failures did not allow for any operation though.
>

Maybe they were designed by bus-people, or Budd forgot a bunch of what
it learned about RDC design in the time between 1945 and 1975...

torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 17.29.05 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:15:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> > bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> > >> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > >>>
> > >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Rich
> > >>
> > >> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
> > >> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
> > >> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
> > >> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
> > >> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
> > >
> > > Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
> > > for niche applications e.g.
> > >
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
> > >
> > > Basically a city bus on rails.
> > >
> > > The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
> > > service design it seems:
> > >
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
> > What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago.
> > They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended
> > use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train
> > standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a
> > fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive
> > a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will
> > obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia.
> > > When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
> > > locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
> > >
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>
> > Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors
> > back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at
> > all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key?
> The motor turns at the RPM of the wheels. Even for an electric motor that is slow. So to get adequate torque at low speed the motor needs a large diameter. Compare to BEVs today where the motor is very compact, but turns at 9x the wheel rate which is much faster than the locomotive wheel rate. Some of the old steam engines had wheels tall as a man.
>

large wheels avoided a gear between the slow steam engine, fast spinning bearings, and large wheels also have more traction

look like this train has about a 4:1 gearing between the motor and wheels https://youtu.be/WokCyQAsh-E?t=149

On 4/13/2022 4:52 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>
>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>
>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
Yep, I put a 2hp 28V motor on a go Kart. 2HP = 1492 watts/28V = 53 amps.
But I ran it on 48v and the 250 amp meter pegged on acceleration.
48v x 250 = 12,000 watts. 12,000 / 746 = 16 HP. We could run it a full speed
40mph without any heat problems, but by the time you got to full speed
the current
had dropped way down.
                        Mikek

--
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On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ....
> > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.

Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. In a 30 minute break, charging can restore some 70-80% of the initial range. Call it 75%, so 11 hours of driving can extend to 175% of the initial range. 11 hr x 65 mph = 715 miles requires a vehicle range of over 400 miles. That's not a stretch in any way. Tesla is planning 300 and 500 mile versions. I can't tell you the weight of those batteries, but Tesla is saying they will not have to give up significantly on the payload capacity, "less than 1 ton", according to Musk.

Batteries are improving all the time. A couple of automakers are saying in three or so years they will be offering solid state batteries with better performance. There's no reason to think electric semi trucks are in any way not happening.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 2:19:02 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:15:48 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>
> >On 4/13/2022 8:57 PM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
> >> <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> >>
> >> When they are not in line to get to a charging station.
> >>
> >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >>
> >> Some people enjoy alternating between max accel and max decel.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Can't recall ever lining up for one. Mostly around here they're not used
> >very much, not that there's a shortage of EVs but most people charge at
> >home.
> >
> >Businesses and public parking lots and state parks etc. often have them
> >but don't tend to be able to figure out how to set the pricing on them
> >or particularly care to they tend to be set at like $0 or 50 cents a
> >kWh, depending, totally divorced from the price of gas or electricity
> >for that matter.
> >
> >I think they tend to install them because they get a tax credit or
> >legislation mandates it in the case of public facilities but nobody
> >really understands the tech once it's installed or knows how to make any
> >money off it or cares to figure out how, only Tesla's network seems to
> >have accomplished that in a meaningful way.
> EVs all about tax credits and climate nonsense. Absent those, there
> wouldn't be any.
>
> What happened to the Tesla semi? I'd think that truck drivers are too
> smart to buy into that.

Hucksters are particularly skilled at fooling others. Some people are uniquely good at fooling themselves. lol

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 3:29:48 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 17.29.05 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:15:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> > > bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > > On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> > > >> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Rich
> > > >>
> > > >> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
> > > >> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
> > > >> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
> > > >> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
> > > >> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
> > > >
> > > > Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
> > > > for niche applications e.g.
> > > >
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
> > > >
> > > > Basically a city bus on rails.
> > > >
> > > > The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
> > > > service design it seems:
> > > >
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
> > > What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago.
> > > They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended
> > > use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train
> > > standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a
> > > fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive
> > > a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will
> > > obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia.
> > > > When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
> > > > locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
> > > >
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>
> > > Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors
> > > back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at
> > > all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key?
> > The motor turns at the RPM of the wheels. Even for an electric motor that is slow. So to get adequate torque at low speed the motor needs a large diameter. Compare to BEVs today where the motor is very compact, but turns at 9x the wheel rate which is much faster than the locomotive wheel rate. Some of the old steam engines had wheels tall as a man.
> >
> large wheels avoided a gear between the slow steam engine, fast spinning bearings, and large wheels also have more traction
>
> look like this train has about a 4:1 gearing between the motor and wheels https://youtu.be/WokCyQAsh-E?t=149

Yeah, to make that work, the motor has to be smaller or the gears are larger than the wheels. Or you use a large motor and the connecting rod.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off.

EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:53:33 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 4:52 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> >> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >>>
> >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >>>
> >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> Yep, I put a 2hp 28V motor on a go Kart. 2HP = 1492 watts/28V = 53 amps.
> But I ran it on 48v and the 250 amp meter pegged on acceleration.
> 48v x 250 = 12,000 watts. 12,000 / 746 = 16 HP. We could run it a full speed
> 40mph without any heat problems, but by the time you got to full speed
> the current
> had dropped way down.

Many years ago some guys from a car magazine tried making a dragster out of a mail jeep and an electric motor, DC commutator I believe. They had a little trouble with the commutator I believe, but the ultimate problem was they used a cog belt drive, and kept shredding the belts! I guess no one tried doing any math to see what the forces would be.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 5:23:37 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> > > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> > > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> > > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> > Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off.
> EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day

A 45 minute break will get you a 90% charge if the supply can provide adequate current. That's a slam dunk! The EU also gives a 2 tonne weight extension for BEVs. In the US it's only 1 ton.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 2:14:28 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. In a 30 minute break, charging can restore some 70-80% of the initial range. Call it 75%, so 11 hours of driving can extend to 175% of the initial range. 11 hr x 65 mph = 715 miles requires a vehicle range of over 400 miles. That's not a stretch in any way. Tesla is planning 300 and 500 mile versions. I can't tell you the weight of those batteries, but Tesla is saying they will not have to give up significantly on the payload capacity, "less than 1 ton", according to Musk.

We can only guess. Current Tesla battery is around 1/2 ton for vehicle weight of 3 to 4 tons. A fully loaded semi could weight 20 to 25 tons. I think it would be several tons of batteries.

On 15/4/22 2:28 am, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>>>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>>>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>>>>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
>>>> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
>>> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
>> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
>
> Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.

Read the link I sent. Standard prime movers are being retrofitted (in
under a week!) with electric drive motors and quick-swap batteries. The
trucks aren't limited by the geometry or aesthetics of a passenger car,
so standardised interchangable batteries are easily achievable.

The batteries are rented, so the owner just pays for the
power+depreciation. Battery exchange/charging stations are being
installed every few 100km along major highways.

Clifford Heath

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 5:45:55 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 2:14:28 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> > > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> > > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> > > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> > Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. In a 30 minute break, charging can restore some 70-80% of the initial range. Call it 75%, so 11 hours of driving can extend to 175% of the initial range. 11 hr x 65 mph = 715 miles requires a vehicle range of over 400 miles. That's not a stretch in any way. Tesla is planning 300 and 500 mile versions. I can't tell you the weight of those batteries, but Tesla is saying they will not have to give up significantly on the payload capacity, "less than 1 ton", according to Musk.
> We can only guess. Current Tesla battery is around 1/2 ton for vehicle weight of 3 to 4 tons. A fully loaded semi could weight 20 to 25 tons. I think it would be several tons of batteries.

Lol! Sometimes you truly amaze me.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:42:19 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 15/4/22 2:28 am, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> >>> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> >>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> >>>>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> >>>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> >>>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> >>>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >>>>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> >>>>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> >>>> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> >>> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ....
> >> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> >
> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> Read the link I sent. Standard prime movers are being retrofitted (in
> under a week!) with electric drive motors and quick-swap batteries. The
> trucks aren't limited by the geometry or aesthetics of a passenger car,
> so standardised interchangable batteries are easily achievable.
>
> The batteries are rented, so the owner just pays for the
> power+depreciation. Battery exchange/charging stations are being
> installed every few 100km along major highways.

I'm interested, but not enough to read through the fluff. Can you provide the pertinent facts? Are they talking about rechargeable batteries or primary cells, like aluminum-air?

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:20:03 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:42:19 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> > On 15/4/22 2:28 am, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > >> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > >>> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > >>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > >>>>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > >>>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > >>>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > >>>>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > >>>>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > >>>> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> > >>> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> > >> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> > >
> > > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> > Read the link I sent. Standard prime movers are being retrofitted (in
> > under a week!) with electric drive motors and quick-swap batteries. The
> > trucks aren't limited by the geometry or aesthetics of a passenger car,
> > so standardised interchangable batteries are easily achievable.
> >
> > The batteries are rented, so the owner just pays for the
> > power+depreciation. Battery exchange/charging stations are being
> > installed every few 100km along major highways.
> I'm interested, but not enough to read through the fluff. Can you provide the pertinent facts? Are they talking about rechargeable batteries or primary cells, like aluminum-air?

$120,000 6 cu.m(est) 1500lbs (est) 100kwhr (guess)

They claim 300 miles range, but i really doubt it for fully loaded truck.

On 15/4/22 9:19 am, Ricky wrote:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:42:19 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
>> On 15/4/22 2:28 am, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>>>> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>>>>>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>>>>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>>>>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>>>>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>>>>>>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
>>>>>> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
>>>>> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
>>>> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
>>>
>>> Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
>> Read the link I sent. Standard prime movers are being retrofitted (in
>> under a week!) with electric drive motors and quick-swap batteries. The
>> trucks aren't limited by the geometry or aesthetics of a passenger car,
>> so standardised interchangable batteries are easily achievable.
>>
>> The batteries are rented, so the owner just pays for the
>> power+depreciation. Battery exchange/charging stations are being
>> installed every few 100km along major highways.
>
> I'm interested, but not enough to read through the fluff. Can you provide the pertinent facts? Are they talking about rechargeable batteries or primary cells, like aluminum-air?
>

Rechargable. Currently Lithium, but the module form factor is designed
to adapt to likely new chemistries. The important point is the drive
motor and battery fits into the existing motor cavity and fuel tank
locations, so there is no structural modification required.

The conversion cost is equivalent to rebuilding or replacing the diesel,
and the operating cost per kilometre a little over half, and service
costs also significantly reduced.

<https://www.januselectric.com.au/#:~:text=Interchangeable%20Parts>

CH

fredag den 15. april 2022 kl. 01.28.50 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:20:03 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:42:19 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> > > On 15/4/22 2:28 am, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > >> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > >>> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > >>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > >>>>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > >>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > >>>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal..
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > >>>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > >>>>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > >>>>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > > >>>> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> > > >>> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> > > >> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> > > >
> > > > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> > > Read the link I sent. Standard prime movers are being retrofitted (in
> > > under a week!) with electric drive motors and quick-swap batteries. The
> > > trucks aren't limited by the geometry or aesthetics of a passenger car,
> > > so standardised interchangable batteries are easily achievable.
> > >
> > > The batteries are rented, so the owner just pays for the
> > > power+depreciation. Battery exchange/charging stations are being
> > > installed every few 100km along major highways.
> > I'm interested, but not enough to read through the fluff. Can you provide the pertinent facts? Are they talking about rechargeable batteries or primary cells, like aluminum-air?
> $120,000 6 cu.m(est) 1500lbs (est) 100kwhr (guess)
>
> They claim 300 miles range, but i really doubt it for fully loaded truck.

modern 40 ton diesel trucks average something like ~4km/l
a liter of diesel is ~10kWh

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:51:14 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> fredag den 15. april 2022 kl. 01.28.50 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:20:03 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:42:19 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> > > > On 15/4/22 2:28 am, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > >> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > > >>> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > >>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz..dk wrote:
> > > > >>>>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > >>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > >>>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > >>>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > >>>>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > > >>>>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > > > >>>> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> > > > >>> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> > > > >> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> > > > >
> > > > > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> > > > Read the link I sent. Standard prime movers are being retrofitted (in
> > > > under a week!) with electric drive motors and quick-swap batteries. The
> > > > trucks aren't limited by the geometry or aesthetics of a passenger car,
> > > > so standardised interchangable batteries are easily achievable.
> > > >
> > > > The batteries are rented, so the owner just pays for the
> > > > power+depreciation. Battery exchange/charging stations are being
> > > > installed every few 100km along major highways.
> > > I'm interested, but not enough to read through the fluff. Can you provide the pertinent facts? Are they talking about rechargeable batteries or primary cells, like aluminum-air?
> > $120,000 6 cu.m(est) 1500lbs (est) 100kwhr (guess)
> >
> > They claim 300 miles range, but i really doubt it for fully loaded truck.
> modern 40 ton diesel trucks average something like ~4km/l
> a liter of diesel is ~10kWh

My tiny Leaf can do around 3 miles per kWh. I don't think a fully loaded huge truck can do the same.

On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 7:48:23 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 15/4/22 9:19 am, Ricky wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:42:19 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> >> On 15/4/22 2:28 am, Ed Lee wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> >>>>> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> >>>>>>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> >>>>>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> >>>>>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >>>>>>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> >>>>>>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> >>>>>> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> >>>>> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> >>>> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
> >>>
> >>> Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> >> Read the link I sent. Standard prime movers are being retrofitted (in
> >> under a week!) with electric drive motors and quick-swap batteries. The
> >> trucks aren't limited by the geometry or aesthetics of a passenger car,
> >> so standardised interchangable batteries are easily achievable.
> >>
> >> The batteries are rented, so the owner just pays for the
> >> power+depreciation. Battery exchange/charging stations are being
> >> installed every few 100km along major highways.
> >
> > I'm interested, but not enough to read through the fluff. Can you provide the pertinent facts? Are they talking about rechargeable batteries or primary cells, like aluminum-air?
> >
> Rechargable. Currently Lithium, but the module form factor is designed
> to adapt to likely new chemistries. The important point is the drive
> motor and battery fits into the existing motor cavity and fuel tank
> locations, so there is no structural modification required.
>
> The conversion cost is equivalent to rebuilding or replacing the diesel,
> and the operating cost per kilometre a little over half, and service
> costs also significantly reduced.
>
> <https://www.januselectric.com.au/#:~:text=Interchangeable%20Parts>

I suppose a battery swap might be more useful for a truck than for cars. But there are issues with scheduling. When a truck has a delivery, that delivery has a schedule. You arrive by the time of your dock appointment or you lose it. I would expect battery swaps to be the same way. So an appointment is made in advance and what do we do to make sure we arrive in time for appointments? We arrive early. The whole point of the battery swap is to reduce wasted time charging. So how does it help to have to arrive 15 to 30 minutes early to make sure of meeting the appointment, vs. simply spending 45 minutes to charge?

It's hard to imagine a battery swap for trucks that is so rapid that no appointment is needed. But maybe that's just the limit of my imagination.

Comparing to fueling up or charging, the battery swap is going to require trained personnel and something that may be a bit on the fancy side to swap out the battery. I don't know if that will be a significant factor in the cost of the service or not.

The main issue will likely be the company itself. You are limited to working with one outfit, serving how large an area? They can even fold.

--

Rick C.

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