On Mon, 30 May 2022 19:08:45 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 21:07:16 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:36 +0100, ke...@kjw.com <ke...@kjw.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 18:41:25 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:09:05 +0100, ke...@kjw.com <ke...@kjw.com> wrote:
>> >> > On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 10:02:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> > ...
>> >> >> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element. Batteries need to be made of something else. Preferably something that doesn't quadruple the cost of the vehicle.
>> >> > ...
>> >> >
>> >> > The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
>> >> >
>> >> > Luckily we have over 150 years worth of lithium and we will probably come up with other chemistries that don't require it.
>> >>
>> >> 150 isn't much more than 47.
>> >
>> > 150 is ~3 times 47 and in that time we can come up with alternates such as below.
>> Since the figures are estimates, you can't say 3x.
>
> I said "~3" using a tilde character to mean approximately

3 plus or minus 7.

>> >> > The other alkali metals are good candidates for use instead of lithium. Sodium in particular is plentiful and very easy to get.
>> >> >
>> >> > Many EV car companies are already using Lithium iron phosphate cathodes to avoid the need for cobalt and nickel.
>> >>
>> >> But they still need that Lithium that kills the minors.
>> >
>> > Lithium does not kill minors.
>> It does. It's very toxic to mine.
>
> You said "minors" meaning young people, nothing about mining.

OCD fuckwit. I actually spelt it like that for a laugh, making fun of our fucked up language. Anyway minors are more fun than miners.

> And most Lithium is "mined" using brine extraction, it does not involve digging holes.

https://champ4mt.com/the-dangers-of-lithium-mining-and-how-to-do-something-about-it.html

On Mon, 30 May 2022 22:42:24 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:41:25 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:09:05 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> > Many EV car companies are already using Lithium iron phosphate cathodes to avoid the need for cobalt and nickel.
>>
>> But they still need that Lithium that kills the minors.
>
> Don't be silly; the major danger to miners is the dump truck; accidents
> happen.

It's enough of a problem for VW to cover it up:

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2020/03/lithium-mining-what-you-should-know-about-the-contentious-issue.html

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:10:01 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 30 May 2022 15:38:47 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 12:08:11 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 03:46:54 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 9:17:08 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> >> >> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> > On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> > >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke....@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> > >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> >> >> > >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> >> >> > >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
> >> >> > >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
> >> >> > Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
> >> >> And to Ford Explorer owners.
> >> >
> >> > Some time back Larkin pointed out, there is a huge amount of energy in the fuel storage of autos. While some people get upset by the 50 to 100 kWh stored in a BEV battery, there are up to TEN times that much energy held in a gas or diesel tank, 1 MWh! Yeah, as much as 400 kg of TNT.
> >> If that is true, petrol cars should travel ten times further than electric.
> >
> > If you could actually get all the energy to move the car, then yeah. But the efficiency of an ICE Is so horrible, it gets maybe a quarter of the energy turned into movement.
> >
> > Do a little math and show me wrong. Use the massive gas tanks that are being discussed for the 600 mile range vehicles. You do know how to do math, right?
> If electric cars are so efficient, why do they have such a shit range?

It is hard to believe you are really so stupid. I can't imagine you aren't just trying to tweak us all off for your own amusement. No one is this stupid. Even a sixth grader can do the math.

--

Rick C.

++--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 06:44:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:10:01 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 May 2022 15:38:47 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 12:08:11 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 03:46:54 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 9:17:08 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> > On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> > >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> > >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>> >> >> > >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>> >> >> > >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>> >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
>> >> >> > >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
>> >> >> > >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
>> >> >> > Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
>> >> >> And to Ford Explorer owners.
>> >> >
>> >> > Some time back Larkin pointed out, there is a huge amount of energy in the fuel storage of autos. While some people get upset by the 50 to 100 kWh stored in a BEV battery, there are up to TEN times that much energy held in a gas or diesel tank, 1 MWh! Yeah, as much as 400 kg of TNT.
>> >> If that is true, petrol cars should travel ten times further than electric.
>> >
>> > If you could actually get all the energy to move the car, then yeah. But the efficiency of an ICE Is so horrible, it gets maybe a quarter of the energy turned into movement.
>> >
>> > Do a little math and show me wrong. Use the massive gas tanks that are being discussed for the 600 mile range vehicles. You do know how to do math, right?
>> If electric cars are so efficient, why do they have such a shit range?
>
> It is hard to believe you are really so stupid. I can't imagine you aren't just trying to tweak us all off for your own amusement. No one is this stupid. Even a sixth grader can do the math.

Can't you answer my simple question? If you think you're cleverer than me, you must know the answer. A petrol car can travel much further on its stored energy than an electric one.

On Tue, 31 May 2022 16:06:54 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 4:31:02 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2022-05-28, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:53:27 +0100, John Doe <alway...@message.header> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed
>> >>> with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year
>> >>> old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the
>> >>> world?
>> >>
>> >> I wonder if it's taking place in Germany where electric power is a little
>> >> scarce these days thanks to them giving up nuclear and now being
>> >> sanctioned by Russia.
>> >
>> > It's the rest of the world doing the sanctioning, shooting themselves in the foot.
>> >
>> >>> You do realize this is happening, and there's pretty much nothing you
>> >>> can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the
>> >>> US will be a BEV...
>> >>
>> >>> This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future,
>> >>> whether you decide to like it or not.
>> >>
>> >> Sounds like wishful thinking. Seems diesel engines are doing well now. My
>> >> next-door neighbor bought a fancy diesel pickup truck six months ago. Gets
>> >> great gas mileage.
>> >>
>> >> Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
>> >> billion small batteries...
>> >
>> > The batteries cost too much to make and there isn't enough electricity to charge them all.
>> >
>> > Why are they called BEVs? That's tautological. Of course batteries
>> > are electric. Can't we just call them electric cars?
>>
>> It differentiates them from plug-in hybrids, fuel-cell vehicles, regular
>> hybrids, and externally powered electric vehicles.
>
> Sometimes it is interesting to attempt discussion with trolls. Other times it is just tiresome. Commander Kinky is more of a tiresome type. I'm curious if you think you are actually having a conversation and how you expect him to respond. Or maybe you know full well he will simply respond as any good troll and treat your post derisively, claiming you to be wrong no matter the facts.
>
> I have not seen much evidence he is willing to accept any facts other than his own reality, particularly in this thread.

Thanks for confirming you never have anything to add to the conversation except childish insults.

On Tue, 31 May 2022 09:14:56 +0100, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

> On 2022-05-28, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:53:27 +0100, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:
>>
>>> Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed
>>>> with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year
>>>> old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the
>>>> world?
>>>
>>> I wonder if it's taking place in Germany where electric power is a little
>>> scarce these days thanks to them giving up nuclear and now being
>>> sanctioned by Russia.
>>
>> It's the rest of the world doing the sanctioning, shooting themselves in the foot.
>>
>>>> You do realize this is happening, and there's pretty much nothing you
>>>> can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the
>>>> US will be a BEV...
>>>
>>>> This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future,
>>>> whether you decide to like it or not.
>>>
>>> Sounds like wishful thinking. Seems diesel engines are doing well now. My
>>> next-door neighbor bought a fancy diesel pickup truck six months ago. Gets
>>> great gas mileage.
>>>
>>> Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
>>> billion small batteries...
>>
>> The batteries cost too much to make and there isn't enough electricity to charge them all.
>>
>> Why are they called BEVs? That's tautological. Of course batteries
>> are electric. Can't we just call them electric cars?
>
> It differentiates them from plug-in hybrids, fuel-cell vehicles, regular
> hybrids, and externally powered electric vehicles.

You mean all the shit that never took off and virtually nobody has? "Electric car" should refer to a battery powering a motor. Anything more longwinded than that like the pathetic Toyota Prius which uses more fuel than a conventional diesel should be called something else.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 2:30:47 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 06:44:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:10:01 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Mon, 30 May 2022 15:38:47 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 12:08:11 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 03:46:54 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 9:17:08 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> >> >> >> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> > On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke....@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> >> >> >> > >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> >> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
> >> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> >> > >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
> >> >> >> > >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
> >> >> >> > Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
> >> >> >> And to Ford Explorer owners.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Some time back Larkin pointed out, there is a huge amount of energy in the fuel storage of autos. While some people get upset by the 50 to 100 kWh stored in a BEV battery, there are up to TEN times that much energy held in a gas or diesel tank, 1 MWh! Yeah, as much as 400 kg of TNT.
> >> >> If that is true, petrol cars should travel ten times further than electric.
> >> >
> >> > If you could actually get all the energy to move the car, then yeah. But the efficiency of an ICE Is so horrible, it gets maybe a quarter of the energy turned into movement.
> >> >
> >> > Do a little math and show me wrong. Use the massive gas tanks that are being discussed for the 600 mile range vehicles. You do know how to do math, right?
> >> If electric cars are so efficient, why do they have such a shit range?
> >
> > It is hard to believe you are really so stupid. I can't imagine you aren't just trying to tweak us all off for your own amusement. No one is this stupid. Even a sixth grader can do the math.
> Can't you answer my simple question? If you think you're cleverer than me, you must know the answer. A petrol car can travel much further on its stored energy than an electric one.

Because the petrol car stores so much more energy in the tank. Is that not completely obvious???

You are just trolling. Either that or you are the stupidest person on the planet.

--

Rick C.

++-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tue, 31 May 2022 09:58:55 +0100, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

> On 2022-05-28, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:44:38 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>>> > On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>>>> > > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>>>> > > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>>>> > That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
>>>> >
>>>> > From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
>>>> >
>>>> > "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
>>>> > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
>>>> >
>>>> > A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
>>>> >
>>>> > kw
>>>> They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.
>>>
>>> You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.
>>>
>>> The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
>>
>> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post?
>
> UPS Airlines Flight 6, etc.

That only killed 2 people.

>> Why does the Royal Mail ban batteries in the post?
>
> they are chicken mostly.
>
> If you follow the apropriate packing and labeling rules
> you probably can send them.

Ebay has put batteries back on sale recently, and I've bought some. No labeling was used (although maybe they were meant to). The rechargeable Li battery I bought was inside a plastic tube - it was a tagged cell and could have easily shorted otherwise (long strips of metal down the side only 8mm apart at the ends). The non-rechargeable Li battery I bought just came in a plastic resealable bag in a jiffy bag. Not sure if those are so high a current or so liable to blow up.

What amused me was the copious warnings by Samsung on the rechargeable one saying this must not be installed or even used by consumers. Uh.... so who can use them? The company I bought them from said Samsung did not like them selling batteries to consumers and had a huge paragraph with some nonsense about me taking full responsibility or something and a line saying they had to put that there to shut up Samsung. For fuck's sake it's just a battery not a thermonuclear device!

On Tue, 31 May 2022 10:07:31 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 6:34:54 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>> I want one question answered. Why didn't the world end when that CO2 was in the air before that coal and oil was made?
>
> As far as oxygen-intolerant organisms were concerned, the onset of an oxygen atmosphere
> WAS the end of the world. It ended several times, in several different ways.

Exactly, so burn those fossil fuels and make it nice for the plants again, you know those things we like to eat?

On Tue, 31 May 2022 09:58:55 +0100, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

> On 2022-05-28, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:44:38 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>>> > On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>>>> > > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>>>> > > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>>>> > That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
>>>> >
>>>> > From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
>>>> >
>>>> > "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
>>>> > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
>>>> >
>>>> > A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
>>>> >
>>>> > kw
>>>> They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.
>>>
>>> You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.
>>>
>>> The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
>>
>> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post?
>
> UPS Airlines Flight 6, etc.

So presumably they'll be banning electric cars from ferries, channel tunnel etc.

On Tue, 31 May 2022 09:58:55 +0100, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

> On 2022-05-28, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:44:38 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>>> > On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>>>> > > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>>>> > > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>>>> > That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
>>>> >
>>>> > From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
>>>> >
>>>> > "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
>>>> > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
>>>> >
>>>> > A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
>>>> >
>>>> > kw
>>>> They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.
>>>
>>> You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.
>>>
>>> The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
>>
>> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post?
>
> UPS Airlines Flight 6, etc.
>
>> Why does the Royal Mail ban batteries in the post?
>
> they are chicken mostly.

You've got that right, they "destroyed" (more like stole) an aerosol I posted. How can that be dangerous? We used to spray each other with those in the changing rooms at school, with a cigarette lighter in front. A few scorched hairs was about it, no explosions.

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
<r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>
>Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>
>I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -

Elon is a hoot. He just told his employees to physically return to
work, or pretend to work somewhere else.

Reminds me of Steve Jobs.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 21:55:55 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > You said "minors" meaning young people, nothing about mining.
> OCD fuckwit. I actually spelt it like that for a laugh, making fun of our fucked up language. Anyway minors are more fun than miners.

Unusual sense of humour.

How are we supposed to know what you mean?

It could mean either in the context of the conversation.

> > And most Lithium is "mined" using brine extraction, it does not involve digging holes.
> https://champ4mt.com/the-dangers-of-lithium-mining-and-how-to-do-something-about-it.html

kw

On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 02:13:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
....
> >>> The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
> >>
> >> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post?
> >
> > UPS Airlines Flight 6, etc.
> So presumably they'll be banning electric cars from ferries, channel tunnel etc.

Conventional vehicles are more likely to catch fire than battery electric vehicles.

kw

On 06/02/2022 02:20 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 02:13:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> ...
>>>>> The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
>>>>
>>>> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post?
>>>
>>> UPS Airlines Flight 6, etc.
>> So presumably they'll be banning electric cars from ferries, channel tunnel etc.
>
> Conventional vehicles are more likely to catch fire than battery electric vehicles.
>
> kw
>

Trivia: a truckload of pristine new automobile batteries needs hazardous
materials placards. A truckload of leaking junk batteries going to LA
for recycling doesn't. This is very important if you picked the junk up
in Denver. Hazmat loads can't go through Eisenhower tunnel so you have
to take the goat trail over the pass.

On 06/02/2022 02:18 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 21:55:55 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>>> You said "minors" meaning young people, nothing about mining.
>> OCD fuckwit. I actually spelt it like that for a laugh, making fun of our fucked up language. Anyway minors are more fun than miners.
>
> Unusual sense of humour.
>
> How are we supposed to know what you mean?
>
> It could mean either in the context of the conversation.
>
>>> And most Lithium is "mined" using brine extraction, it does not involve digging holes.
>> https://champ4mt.com/the-dangers-of-lithium-mining-and-how-to-do-something-about-it.html
>
> kw
>

Then there are the minor miners:

https://allthatsinteresting.com/child-miners#27

On 3/6/22 04:09, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
> <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>
>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>
>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>
> Elon is a hoot. He just told his employees to physically return to
> work, or pretend to work somewhere else.

It's a way of downsizing without the cost of lay-offs. The company is
clearly in trouble.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 08:09:35 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 2:30:47 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 06:44:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 12:10:01 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 30 May 2022 15:38:47 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 12:08:11 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 03:46:54 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Some time back Larkin pointed out, there is a huge amount of energy in the fuel storage of autos. While some people get upset by the 50 to 100 kWh stored in a BEV battery, there are up to TEN times that much energy held in a gas or diesel tank, 1 MWh! Yeah, as much as 400 kg of TNT.
>> >> >> If that is true, petrol cars should travel ten times further than electric.
>> >> >
>> >> > If you could actually get all the energy to move the car, then yeah. But the efficiency of an ICE Is so horrible, it gets maybe a quarter of the energy turned into movement.
>> >> >
>> >> > Do a little math and show me wrong. Use the massive gas tanks that are being discussed for the 600 mile range vehicles. You do know how to do math, right?
>> >> If electric cars are so efficient, why do they have such a shit range?
>> >
>> > It is hard to believe you are really so stupid. I can't imagine you aren't just trying to tweak us all off for your own amusement. No one is this stupid. Even a sixth grader can do the math.
>> Can't you answer my simple question? If you think you're cleverer than me, you must know the answer. A petrol car can travel much further on its stored energy than an electric one.
>
> Because the petrol car stores so much more energy in the tank. Is that not completely obvious???
>
> You are just trolling. Either that or you are the stupidest person on the planet.

Thanks for admitting the battery is a useless device for storing energy.

On Fri, 03 Jun 2022 05:02:19 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On 06/02/2022 02:20 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 02:13:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> ...
>>>>>> The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
>>>>>
>>>>> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post?
>>>>
>>>> UPS Airlines Flight 6, etc.
>>> So presumably they'll be banning electric cars from ferries, channel tunnel etc.
>>
>> Conventional vehicles are more likely to catch fire than battery electric vehicles.
>
> Trivia: a truckload of pristine new automobile batteries needs hazardous
> materials placards. A truckload of leaking junk batteries going to LA
> for recycling doesn't.

Less power stored in them as they're fucked.

> This is very important if you picked the junk up
> in Denver. Hazmat loads can't go through Eisenhower tunnel so you have
> to take the goat trail over the pass.

On Thu, 02 Jun 2022 21:20:53 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 02:13:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> ...
>> >>> The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
>> >>
>> >> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post?
>> >
>> > UPS Airlines Flight 6, etc.
>> So presumably they'll be banning electric cars from ferries, channel tunnel etc.
>
> Conventional vehicles are more likely to catch fire than battery electric vehicles.

Not from what I've seen. And Lithium fires are fucking hard to put out.

On Thu, 02 Jun 2022 21:18:57 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 21:55:55 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>> > You said "minors" meaning young people, nothing about mining.
>> OCD fuckwit. I actually spelt it like that for a laugh, making fun of our fucked up language. Anyway minors are more fun than miners.
>
> Unusual sense of humour.
>
> How are we supposed to know what you mean?
>
> It could mean either in the context of the conversation.

Ewe need to learn English better. It's always obvious what word is meant to be their even if people use the wrong won.

On Fri, 03 Jun 2022 05:06:25 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On 06/02/2022 02:18 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 21:55:55 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>
>>>> You said "minors" meaning young people, nothing about mining.
>>> OCD fuckwit. I actually spelt it like that for a laugh, making fun of our fucked up language. Anyway minors are more fun than miners.
>>
>> Unusual sense of humour.
>>
>> How are we supposed to know what you mean?
>>
>> It could mean either in the context of the conversation.
>>
>>>> And most Lithium is "mined" using brine extraction, it does not involve digging holes.
>>> https://champ4mt.com/the-dangers-of-lithium-mining-and-how-to-do-something-about-it.html
>>
>> kw
>>
>
> Then there are the minor miners:
>
> https://allthatsinteresting.com/child-miners#27

Ideally suited to going into small spaces. Why did we stop using them?

In fact I would have preferred to work hard as a child and retire earlier.

On 06/03/2022 12:43 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jun 2022 05:06:25 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> On 06/02/2022 02:18 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 21:55:55 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>
>>>>> You said "minors" meaning young people, nothing about mining.
>>>> OCD fuckwit. I actually spelt it like that for a laugh, making fun
>>>> of our fucked up language. Anyway minors are more fun than miners.
>>>
>>> Unusual sense of humour.
>>>
>>> How are we supposed to know what you mean?
>>>
>>> It could mean either in the context of the conversation.
>>>
>>>>> And most Lithium is "mined" using brine extraction, it does not
>>>>> involve digging holes.
>>>> https://champ4mt.com/the-dangers-of-lithium-mining-and-how-to-do-something-about-it.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> kw
>>>
>>
>> Then there are the minor miners:
>>
>> https://allthatsinteresting.com/child-miners#27
>
> Ideally suited to going into small spaces. Why did we stop using them?
>
> In fact I would have preferred to work hard as a child and retire earlier.

With black lung there wasn't need for a complex retirement plan.

https://poets.org/poem/chimney-sweeper

"When my mother died I was very young,
And my father sold me while yet my tongue
Could scarcely cry 'Weep! weep! weep! weep!'
So your chimneys I sweep, and in soot I sleep."

William Blake

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_sweeps%27_carcinoma

Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 3/6/22 04:09, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
>> <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>
>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>> that this would be the case?  Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>
>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>
>> Elon is a hoot. He just told his employees to physically return to
>> work, or pretend to work somewhere else.
>
> It's a way of downsizing without the cost of lay-offs. The company is
> clearly in trouble.

The letters were addressed to the execs, not the rank-and-file.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:32:49 AM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Clifford Heath wrote:
> > On 3/6/22 04:09, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
> >> <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >>>
> >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >>>
> >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >>
> >> Elon is a hoot. He just told his employees to physically return to
> >> work, or pretend to work somewhere else.
> >
> > It's a way of downsizing without the cost of lay-offs. The company is
> > clearly in trouble.
> The letters were addressed to the execs, not the rank-and-file.

Don't bother him with the facts!

--

Rick C.

++-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209