On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:48:52 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:44:38 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> >> > On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> >> > > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> >> > > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> >> > That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
> >> >
> >> > From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
> >> >
> >> > "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
> >> > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
> >> >
> >> > A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
> >> >
> >> > kw
> >> They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.
> >
> > You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.
> >
> > The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
>
> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post? Why does the Royal Mail ban batteries in the post?

You can't send petrol or propane either.

You are allowed to send lithium batteries when they are inside an electronic device.

kw

On Sat, 28 May 2022 23:55:13 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:42:16 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 May 2022 22:49:29 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 13:32:53 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:02:02 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>> >> > On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 09:02:01 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> > ...
>> >> >> > there's no reason why they can't last like an ICE. The batteries in most BEVs are warrantied for 100,000 or more miles. Do you believe they are going to drop out of the car shortly after that?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You won't get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
>> >> >
>> >> > I guess my 4 1/2 year old Tesla is going to expire soon then.
>> >>
>> >> Most likely. The chemistry only allows a handful of years or 1000 charges.
>> >
>> > Sigh...
>> >
>> > Tesla actually claim 1500 cycles
>> So fuck all.
>> > and warranties them for 8 years.
>> My petrol car is still running after 20 years. So two battery changes would have cost....
>> > The latest batteries promise even longer lives.
>> I see vague promises all the time about batteries.
>> > 1500 cycles for the Model 3 (358miles EPA rated) is over 500,000 miles.
>> Do you really think you'll get that 358 miles?
>> > I need to tell my friend with a 9 year old Tesla that his shouldn't be working any more and it is his imagination that lets him keep driving it.
>> And how much did this Tesla cost? Tesla are not affordable cars for the majority. Compare with a petrol car of the same value, oh wait, they don't make battery cars that cheap.
>
> A BMW 3 series is very comparable to the Tesla Model 3 in features and costs about the same. The Tesla is higher performance.

A BMW is overpriced shit, now look at a VW.

>> > The 8 year old battery in my MacBook with 94% capacity is also dead then, that's funny - I'm using it right now, so if you don't get this post it is because the battery died...
>> You hardly use collossal amounts of power from that. Now try running a science program like Boinc or Folding on it using the battery.
>> >> >> And I bet that "warranty" only covers the first user.
>> >> >
>> >> > No - it's transferable.
>> >>
>> >> Tesla don't even transfer the optional extras. They STEAL them back.
>> >
>> > There is a grain of truth in that
>> It's either true or it isn't. If you buy a new Tesla, get all the extras, then sell it to me 3 years later, what happens?
>
> I see that you clipped my full response. Here it is again if you missed it first time:

I only trim things over 5 levels deep when it's getting ridiculous.

> kw>There is a grain of truth in that but the only "optional extra" that is in question is the "Full Self-Driving" and kw>that is transferable through private sellers provided it was originally purchased with the car when new.
>
> kw>It may or may not be transferable through a dealer.
>
> So yes, if I buy a Tesla and sell it to you 3 years later you get everything I had.

Not what someone else said in here. Or it may have been in the Einstein forum. Everything - AC, extra acceleration, etc, etc can all be switched off at the factory remotely, and is every time it's resold.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>> >
>> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
>>
>> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
>
> No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.

So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.

> Only Tesla and Rivian use small cells. All other EV manufacturers uses large cells typically of 20Ah to 60Ah.

Why this difference between manufacturers?

On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:10:45 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:48:52 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:44:38 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> >> > On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>> >> > > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>> >> > > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>> >> > That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
>> >> >
>> >> > From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
>> >> >
>> >> > "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
>> >> > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
>> >> >
>> >> > A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
>> >> >
>> >> > kw
>> >> They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.
>> >
>> > You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.
>> >
>> > The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
>>
>> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post? Why does the Royal Mail ban batteries in the post?
>
> You can't send petrol or propane either.
>
> You are allowed to send lithium batteries when they are inside an electronic device.

Why would that make them any safer? In fact I'd say it's more likely they could short. I bought some 18650 tagged cells in the post, they put them in nice little plastic tubes, no possibility of shorting. They came by Royal Mail, not sure if they had an agreement with them or they just lied about the contents. They do check things that seem odd, like when I sent some aerosol cans in the post, you could hear they were aerosols when you shook the parcel. The bastards "destroyed" them, more likely the workforce took them home and kept them.

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> >> >
> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
> >>
> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
> >
> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.

In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.

I expect Rivian has a similar feature.

What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
> > Only Tesla and Rivian use small cells. All other EV manufacturers uses large cells typically of 20Ah to 60Ah.
> Why this difference between manufacturers?

Each manufacturer has their own ideas about how to optimize cost, space, weight etc.

Tesla started out by exploiting the fact that 18650 cells were the most common mass production cells. The manufacturing processes and equipment were optimized to make those at lowest cost.

Larger format cells have the potential advantage of less material used to package the cell with a possibility of improving energy to weight ratio.

Tesla cells have gradually been increasing in size while keeping a similar style. The original 18650 has progressed to 2170 and next to 4680. The cell numbering system is the diameter in mm followed by the height in tenths of a mm so an 18650 is 18mm die by 65.0mm tall.

WIth these changes (and others) Tesla claims to have improved cost, energy density and power density and as well as reductions in use of raw materials while expecting greatly improved lifetime.

kw

On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>> >> >
>> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
>> >>
>> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
>> >
>> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
>> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
>
> In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
>
> I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
>
> What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.

Tell that to Rochard Hammond.

>> > Only Tesla and Rivian use small cells. All other EV manufacturers uses large cells typically of 20Ah to 60Ah.
>> Why this difference between manufacturers?
>
> Each manufacturer has their own ideas about how to optimize cost, space, weight etc.
>
> Tesla started out by exploiting the fact that 18650 cells were the most common mass production cells. The manufacturing processes and equipment were optimized to make those at lowest cost.

They used to be cheap until cars started using them, now I have to pay three times as much to power my fucking torch.

> Larger format cells have the potential advantage of less material used to package the cell with a possibility of improving energy to weight ratio.

Until something better than Lithium Ion is invented, they just aren't powerful enough for a car. Lithium is for laptops, or maybe a golf cart.

> Tesla cells have gradually been increasing in size while keeping a similar style. The original 18650 has progressed to 2170 and next to 4680. The cell numbering system is the diameter in mm followed by the height in tenths of a mm so an 18650 is 18mm die by 65.0mm tall.

Which would make a 2170 only 21mm wide and 7mm tall. So a coin cell?

> WIth these changes (and others) Tesla claims to have improved cost, energy density and power density and as well as reductions in use of raw materials while expecting greatly improved lifetime.

And yet they still rip people off with absurdly expensive cars much like Apple rip off people with their overpriced computers. One born every minute.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:47:11 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:35:25 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>> >The only way to make a finding of 90 million tons is to ignore every rock that hasn't
>> >been declared part of a current Lithium mining claim, i.e. assume only today's lithium mines
>> >contain all the Earth's lithium element. That's a world-size error.
>
>> The problem isn't abundance, it's concentration.
>>
>> There's lots of lithium in the ocean, 0.2 PPM, too expensive to
>> extract.
>
> Yeah, the ocean is a dilute ore for lots of things. There's lots of ancient dead seas, though,
> where lots of concentration happened, for free, eons ago. The 'economic' place is always the
> closest to mass transport and cheapest to extract. Other sites for mining that
> aren't worth developing this year, will be ready when mine #1 empties.
> Next year, a few dollars per ton of price hike won't bankrupt anyone.

Electric cars are too expensive as it is. Fuck that I'm using petrol.

On 05/28/2022 04:45 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> Or why not stop acronyms altogether? For example what is ICE?
> Apparently it now means internal combustion engine, but when all cars
> had engines, it meant in car entertainment (it has a decent stereo).

Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
> >> >>
> >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
> >> >
> >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
> >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
> >
> > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
> >
> > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
> >
> > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
> Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
> >> > Only Tesla and Rivian use small cells. All other EV manufacturers uses large cells typically of 20Ah to 60Ah.
> >> Why this difference between manufacturers?
> >
> > Each manufacturer has their own ideas about how to optimize cost, space, weight etc.
> >
> > Tesla started out by exploiting the fact that 18650 cells were the most common mass production cells. The manufacturing processes and equipment were optimized to make those at lowest cost.
> They used to be cheap until cars started using them, now I have to pay three times as much to power my fucking torch.
> > Larger format cells have the potential advantage of less material used to package the cell with a possibility of improving energy to weight ratio.
> Until something better than Lithium Ion is invented, they just aren't powerful enough for a car. Lithium is for laptops, or maybe a golf cart.
> > Tesla cells have gradually been increasing in size while keeping a similar style. The original 18650 has progressed to 2170 and next to 4680. The cell numbering system is the diameter in mm followed by the height in tenths of a mm so an 18650 is 18mm die by 65.0mm tall.
> Which would make a 2170 only 21mm wide and 7mm tall. So a coin cell?

Sorry about that, it is common to drop the trailing zero on the larger sizes. A 2170 is 21mm x 70mm, a 4680 is 46mm x 80mm.

> > WIth these changes (and others) Tesla claims to have improved cost, energy density and power density and as well as reductions in use of raw materials while expecting greatly improved lifetime.
> And yet they still rip people off with absurdly expensive cars much like Apple rip off people with their overpriced computers. One born every minute..

It's not a rip off of the customer is willing to pay and consider the price competitive with others in the marketplace.

We can't all be as enlightened as you.

kw

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:51:06 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:47:11 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:35:25 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> >The only way to make a finding of 90 million tons is to ignore every rock that hasn't
> >> >been declared part of a current Lithium mining claim, i.e. assume only today's lithium mines
> >> >contain all the Earth's lithium element. That's a world-size error.
> >
> >> The problem isn't abundance, it's concentration.
> >>
> >> There's lots of lithium in the ocean, 0.2 PPM, too expensive to
> >> extract.
> >
> > Yeah, the ocean is a dilute ore for lots of things. There's lots of ancient dead seas, though,
> > where lots of concentration happened, for free, eons ago. The 'economic' place is always the
> > closest to mass transport and cheapest to extract. Other sites for mining that
> > aren't worth developing this year, will be ready when mine #1 empties.
> > Next year, a few dollars per ton of price hike won't bankrupt anyone.
>
> Electric cars are too expensive as it is. Fuck that I'm using petrol.

You choice.

kw

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
> >> >>
> >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
> >> >
> >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
> >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
> >
> > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
> >
> > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
> >
> > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
> Tell that to Rochard Hammond.

And to Ford Explorer owners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30AbH74uxdU

> >> > Only Tesla and Rivian use small cells. All other EV manufacturers uses large cells typically of 20Ah to 60Ah.
> >> Why this difference between manufacturers?
> >
> > Each manufacturer has their own ideas about how to optimize cost, space, weight etc.
> >
> > Tesla started out by exploiting the fact that 18650 cells were the most common mass production cells. The manufacturing processes and equipment were optimized to make those at lowest cost.
> They used to be cheap until cars started using them, now I have to pay three times as much to power my fucking torch.
> > Larger format cells have the potential advantage of less material used to package the cell with a possibility of improving energy to weight ratio.
> Until something better than Lithium Ion is invented, they just aren't powerful enough for a car. Lithium is for laptops, or maybe a golf cart.
> > Tesla cells have gradually been increasing in size while keeping a similar style. The original 18650 has progressed to 2170 and next to 4680. The cell numbering system is the diameter in mm followed by the height in tenths of a mm so an 18650 is 18mm die by 65.0mm tall.
> Which would make a 2170 only 21mm wide and 7mm tall. So a coin cell?
> > WIth these changes (and others) Tesla claims to have improved cost, energy density and power density and as well as reductions in use of raw materials while expecting greatly improved lifetime.
> And yet they still rip people off with absurdly expensive cars much like Apple rip off people with their overpriced computers. One born every minute..

On Sun, 29 May 2022 02:01:55 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On 05/28/2022 04:45 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> Or why not stop acronyms altogether? For example what is ICE?
>> Apparently it now means internal combustion engine, but when all cars
>> had engines, it meant in car entertainment (it has a decent stereo).
>
> Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

No, it's an In-Circuit Emulator.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 02:02:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>> >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>> >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
>> >> >
>> >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
>> >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
>> >
>> > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
>> >
>> > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
>> >
>> > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
>> Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
>> >> > Only Tesla and Rivian use small cells. All other EV manufacturers uses large cells typically of 20Ah to 60Ah.
>> >> Why this difference between manufacturers?
>> >
>> > Each manufacturer has their own ideas about how to optimize cost, space, weight etc.
>> >
>> > Tesla started out by exploiting the fact that 18650 cells were the most common mass production cells. The manufacturing processes and equipment were optimized to make those at lowest cost.
>> They used to be cheap until cars started using them, now I have to pay three times as much to power my fucking torch.
>> > Larger format cells have the potential advantage of less material used to package the cell with a possibility of improving energy to weight ratio.
>> Until something better than Lithium Ion is invented, they just aren't powerful enough for a car. Lithium is for laptops, or maybe a golf cart.
>> > Tesla cells have gradually been increasing in size while keeping a similar style. The original 18650 has progressed to 2170 and next to 4680. The cell numbering system is the diameter in mm followed by the height in tenths of a mm so an 18650 is 18mm die by 65.0mm tall.
>> Which would make a 2170 only 21mm wide and 7mm tall. So a coin cell?
>
> Sorry about that, it is common to drop the trailing zero on the larger sizes.

Because the fuckwit that came up with convention thought the length should be 10 times as accurate as the width.

> A 2170 is 21mm x 70mm, a 4680 is 46mm x 80mm.
>
>> > WIth these changes (and others) Tesla claims to have improved cost, energy density and power density and as well as reductions in use of raw materials while expecting greatly improved lifetime.
>> And yet they still rip people off with absurdly expensive cars much like Apple rip off people with their overpriced computers. One born every minute.
>
> It's not a rip off of the customer is willing to pay and consider the price competitive with others in the marketplace.
>
> We can't all be as enlightened as you.

I do like morons that pay over the odds for stuff, it makes second hand stuff cheaper.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 02:02:50 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:51:06 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:47:11 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:35:25 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >The only way to make a finding of 90 million tons is to ignore every rock that hasn't
>> >> >been declared part of a current Lithium mining claim, i.e. assume only today's lithium mines
>> >> >contain all the Earth's lithium element. That's a world-size error.
>> >
>> >> The problem isn't abundance, it's concentration.
>> >>
>> >> There's lots of lithium in the ocean, 0.2 PPM, too expensive to
>> >> extract.
>> >
>> > Yeah, the ocean is a dilute ore for lots of things. There's lots of ancient dead seas, though,
>> > where lots of concentration happened, for free, eons ago. The 'economic' place is always the
>> > closest to mass transport and cheapest to extract. Other sites for mining that
>> > aren't worth developing this year, will be ready when mine #1 empties.
>> > Next year, a few dollars per ton of price hike won't bankrupt anyone.
>>
>> Electric cars are too expensive as it is. Fuck that I'm using petrol.
>
> You choice.

I buy the car which cost the least overall. If the cost of buying it is more than the fuel saving, then it was pointless.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 02:17:03 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>> >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>> >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
>> >> >
>> >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
>> >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
>> >
>> > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
>> >
>> > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
>> >
>> > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
>> Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
>
> And to Ford Explorer owners.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30AbH74uxdU

Excellent design feature - sound the horn to warn of the fire.

A 4WD powered by batteries? WTF? Way too heavy.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:09:05 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 10:02:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> ...
>> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element. Batteries need to be made of something else. Preferably something that doesn't quadruple the cost of the vehicle.
> ...
>
> The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
>
> Luckily we have over 150 years worth of lithium and we will probably come up with other chemistries that don't require it.

150 isn't much more than 47.

> The other alkali metals are good candidates for use instead of lithium. Sodium in particular is plentiful and very easy to get.
>
> Many EV car companies are already using Lithium iron phosphate cathodes to avoid the need for cobalt and nickel.

But they still need that Lithium that kills the minors.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 9:17:08 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> > >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> > >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
> > >> >
> > >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
> > >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
> > >
> > > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
> > >
> > > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
> > >
> > > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
> > Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
> And to Ford Explorer owners.

Some time back Larkin pointed out, there is a huge amount of energy in the fuel storage of autos. While some people get upset by the 50 to 100 kWh stored in a BEV battery, there are up to TEN times that much energy held in a gas or diesel tank, 1 MWh! Yeah, as much as 400 kg of TNT.

I know they used gasoline to make Napalm. It can be used to make thermobaric weapons and of course, the ubiquitous Molotov cocktail. Great stuff that gasoline!

--

Rick C.

+-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 18:41:25 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:09:05 +0100, ke...@kjw.com <ke...@kjw.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 10:02:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > ...
> >> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element. Batteries need to be made of something else. Preferably something that doesn't quadruple the cost of the vehicle.
> > ...
> >
> > The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
> >
> > Luckily we have over 150 years worth of lithium and we will probably come up with other chemistries that don't require it.
>
> 150 isn't much more than 47.

150 is ~3 times 47 and in that time we can come up with alternates such as below.
>
> > The other alkali metals are good candidates for use instead of lithium. Sodium in particular is plentiful and very easy to get.
> >
> > Many EV car companies are already using Lithium iron phosphate cathodes to avoid the need for cobalt and nickel.
>
> But they still need that Lithium that kills the minors.

Lithium does not kill minors.

You are probably referring to cobalt mining.

Recent chemistry changes for lithium batteries either use less cobalt or in the case of Tesla half of the cars don't use any cobalt at all. Other manufacturers are making similar changes.

Oil mining is not danger free and thousands die in oil extraction and millions due to pollution.

kw

On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 18:37:33 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 29 May 2022 02:02:50 +0100, ke...@kjw.com <ke...@kjw.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:51:06 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:47:11 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:35:25 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> >The only way to make a finding of 90 million tons is to ignore every rock that hasn't
> >> >> >been declared part of a current Lithium mining claim, i.e. assume only today's lithium mines
> >> >> >contain all the Earth's lithium element. That's a world-size error.
> >> >
> >> >> The problem isn't abundance, it's concentration.
> >> >>
> >> >> There's lots of lithium in the ocean, 0.2 PPM, too expensive to
> >> >> extract.
> >> >
> >> > Yeah, the ocean is a dilute ore for lots of things. There's lots of ancient dead seas, though,
> >> > where lots of concentration happened, for free, eons ago. The 'economic' place is always the
> >> > closest to mass transport and cheapest to extract. Other sites for mining that
> >> > aren't worth developing this year, will be ready when mine #1 empties.
> >> > Next year, a few dollars per ton of price hike won't bankrupt anyone.
> >>
> >> Electric cars are too expensive as it is. Fuck that I'm using petrol.
> >
> > Your choice.
> I buy the car which cost the least overall. If the cost of buying it is more than the fuel saving, then it was pointless.

For many people the total cost of ownership of an electric vehicle is significantly less than that of a conventional car - even a mundane Toyota Camry.

kw

On Sun, 22 May 2022 17:03:20 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:48:30 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 20:21:14 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >>
>> > >The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
>> > But "proven reserves" have been increasing linearly for about 100
>> > years now. And lots of places haven't been explored.
>> ...
>>
>> This hardly looks linear:
>>
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/236657/global-crude-oil-reserves-since-1990/
>>
>> It seems that it saturated in 2010.
>
> Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more oil reserve now.

The price of oil is illogical. It seems to be set by some international committee. The British companies drilling for oil are making a massive profit.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:06:28 +0100, Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

> On 2022-05-22 19:02, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 09:50:38 UTC-7,
>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: ...
>>>> Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn
>>>> when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more
>>>> oil reserve now.
>>> There's a lot of area and depth left to explore. --
>> ...
>>
>> Yes, but the same arguments apply to the reserves of Lithium as there
>> are at least a few hundred billion tons either as deposits or in the
>> oceans.
>>
>> As the technology of cars and mining evolves and the financial
>> incentives stimulate exploration and development more is likely to be
>> discovered or alternatives found. Probably enough for billions of
>> cars.
>>
>> kw
>
> Billions of cars, ah yes. We have to provide for all these driverless
> cars that will soon clog our roads.

Since driverless cars don't make mistakes, they ought to have a higher speed limit. Then the roads would be clearer.

On Mon, 23 May 2022 03:14:03 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On 05/22/2022 11:02 AM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 09:50:38 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> ...
>>>> Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more oil reserve now.
>>> There's a lot of area and depth left to explore.
>>> --
>> ...
>>
>> Yes, but the same arguments apply to the reserves of Lithium as there are at least a few hundred billion tons either as deposits or in the oceans.
>>
>> As the technology of cars and mining evolves and the financial incentives stimulate exploration and development more is likely to be discovered or alternatives found. Probably enough for billions of cars.
>>
>> kw
>>
>
> Will there be oil enough for billions of tires or to create the
> plastics that are a large component of modern cars? Or are you trying to
> put bandaids on an unsustainable system to eke out a few more decades?

Who cares, it'll be fun when we go back to riding on horseback.

On Tue, 24 May 2022 05:52:45 +0100, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

> On 2022-05-21, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 18:35:10 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> lørdag den 21. maj 2022 kl. 19.02.46 UTC+2 skrev Commander Kinsey:
>>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:26:37 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 05/21/2022 08:15 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> >> On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky
>>>> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> >>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >> As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment
>>>> >>>> opportunity won't tell
>>>> >>>> > you that.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried
>>>> >>>> salts have useful
>>>> >>>> > concentrations of that element There's lots of those, and the most
>>>> >>>> economic are being
>>>> >>>> > mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade.
>>>> >>>> The metal isn't
>>>> >>>> > rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a
>>>> >>>> big premium.
>>>> >>>> I quote er.... you, with "the most economic are being mined now" -
>>>> >>>> it's gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out,
>>>> >>> I think he took the ration of a hundred others.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Whoosh! So again.... "the most economic are being mined now", so what
>>>> >> does that make the others..... er.... let me see.... LESS economic.
>>>> >
>>>> > The question is how less economic.
>>>> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element.
>>>
>>> Lithium is not a rare element ....
>>
>> The approximate amount of lithium on earth is between 30 and 90 million tons.
>>
>> Cars require 20 million tons. Rather close.... so can we really mine two thirds of it, and then recycle 100% of that forever more?
>
> The sea is 0.2ppm lithium and weighs over 10^18 tonnes,
> so there's more than a thousand times more lithium on Earth than that
> just in the sea water.

Now explain the science behind, and the costs involved, in extracting all that.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 02:10:55 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On 05/24/2022 02:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 03:55:22 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/16/2022 11:58 AM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 22:25:13 UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
>>>>> On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kwdes...com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a
>>>>> battery is
>>>>> going to last 36 years?
>>>>
>>>> Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don't
>>>> last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is
>>>> about 15 years.
>>>>
>>>> Accident damage or some major failure (such as engine!) often results
>>>> in a costly repair that causes it to be scrapped.
>>>>
>>>> My last BMW was a great car until it was about 8 years old when
>>>> failures started to become annoying and expensive.
>>>>
>>>> kw
>>>>
>>>
>>> My Audi became annoying long before that. Admittedly it was a 100LS and
>>> Volkswagen hadn't figured out front engine, front wheel drive, water
>>> cooled vehicles yet.
>>
>> I have found nothing but good things to say about Audis. Although they
>> are just VWs with a higher price tag.
>
>
> One annoyance was the plug wires. At around 15k miles the car wouldn't
> start. It didn't run rough or exhibit any problems until the day it
> wouldn't go. I assumed an over zealous computer decided the wires were
> out of spec. I always carried spares.
>
> Then there was the day the wipers wouldn't turn off. I was in the middle
> of nowhere and had to call the shop to find which relay to pull.
>
> The finish had problems and the transaxles had problems eventually. My
> wife got the Audi when we split and she traded it in on a Rabbit and got
> almost nothing for it.
>
> It certainly wasn't the car's fault but it wasn't geared to cruise at 55
> when yet another idiot president passed a national speed limit.

Please don't tell me you agree with speed limits.

On Fri, 20 May 2022 03:28:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 5:50:58 PM UTC-4, RichD wrote:
>> On May 13, Flyguy wrote:
>> > And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their
>> > love affair with electric cars will wain.
>> > And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.
>>
>> They want to cover the Mojave desert with solar panels.
>>
>> um, how's that going to affect the earth's albedo?
>> The solar energy currently bounced out to Mars, is going to stay
>> earthbound.... drive your car and coffeemaker... and at the end of
>> the day... global warming, hello!
>>
>> The fourth law of thermodynamics: in the long run, energy efficiency
>> is zero, everything thermalizes -
>
>
> Who exactly is "they"? Where did you see this about covering the Mojave desert with solar panels?
>
> I will say that it is clear you don't understand what global warming is about. It has nothing to do with the efficiency of the energy conversions required to provide power. It is about the CO2 released in the process.

It's about a fake religion. Who fucking cares if the temperature changes a bit? Who fucking cares if the CO2 goes back where it belongs, where it was before oil and coal and gas were created?