No thanks, I know the meaning of "perhaps".

🙂

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 3:49:29 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> No thanks, I know the meaning of "perhaps".
>
> 🙂

Perhaps.

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 3:49:29 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> No thanks, I know the meaning of "perhaps".
>
>
That's just a 'fantasy."

On 2022-06-10 9:16 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> You seem to have missed the point, George.
>
> Here's what the Wikipedia article said:
>
> "Inspirations
> There are many parallels between Hornblower and real naval officers of the period, notably Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir George Cockburn, Lord Cochrane, Sir Edward Pellew, Jeremiah Coghlan, Sir James Gordon and Sir William Hoste."
>
> IOW: Hornblower was *inspired by* Nelson and many of his peers.
>

No, the article says "there are many parallels" between Hornblower and
Nelson and the other 6 (Nelson +6).

"Many parallels (between A and B) ≠ A was "inspired" by B

The one-way relation is probably true:
A was inspired by B -> many parallels between A and B

but it isn't valid to conclude:
many parallels between A and B -> A was inspired by B

> He was not *based on* Nelson as both of the Splooges have claimed.
>
> "Inspired by" ≠ "based on."
>

Fair enough; but no one's claiming that "inspired by" = "based on".

OTOH, it's also true that "inspired by" ≠ "not based on"; so all we get
from the semantics is: maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

> Words matter.

Sure they do, in helping us discuss matters of fact. But word meanings
do not determine matters of fact.
>
>> "One of Nelson’s most interesting legacies is that he was the obvious
>> model for Horatio Hornblower, the navy officer in a series of
>> best-selling early 20th century novels by C. S. Forester. In turn, the
>> protagonist of the Forester novels was the source of Gene Roddenberry‘s
>> inspiration when he created his famous starship captains James T. Kirk
>> and Jean-Luc Picard."
>> http://www.kyrackramer.com/2018/09/29/horatio-nelson-hornblower-prototype-and-hero-of-trafalgar/
>>
>> Kramer doesn't get into the similarities, but one that I noticed from
>> her article is that Nelson got seasick. According to the Wikipedia
>> article on Hornblower, that was a recurring motif in the novels:
>> Hornblower "suffers from seasickness at the start of each of his voyages."
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Hornblower#Inspirations
>

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-06-10 9:16 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> You seem to have missed the point, George.
>>
>> Here's what the Wikipedia article said:
>>
>> "Inspirations
>> There are many parallels between Hornblower and real naval officers of the period, notably Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir George Cockburn, Lord Cochrane, Sir Edward Pellew, Jeremiah Coghlan, Sir James Gordon and Sir William Hoste."
>>
>> IOW: Hornblower was *inspired by* Nelson and many of his peers.
>>

> No, the article says "there are many parallels" between Hornblower and
> Nelson and the other 6 (Nelson +6).

> "Many parallels (between A and B) ≠ A was "inspired" by B

> The one-way relation is probably true:
> A was inspired by B -> many parallels between A and B

> but it isn't valid to conclude:
> many parallels between A and B -> A was inspired by B

>> He was not *based on* Nelson as both of the Splooges have claimed.
>>
>> "Inspired by" ≠ "based on."
>>

> Fair enough; but no one's claiming that "inspired by" = "based on".

> OTOH, it's also true that "inspired by" ≠ "not based on"; so all we get
> from the semantics is: maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

>> Words matter.

> Sure they do, in helping us discuss matters of fact. But word meanings
> do not determine matters of fact.
>>
>>> "One of Nelson’s most interesting legacies is that he was the obvious
>>> model for Horatio Hornblower, the navy officer in a series of
>>> best-selling early 20th century novels by C. S. Forester. In turn, the
>>> protagonist of the Forester novels was the source of Gene Roddenberry‘s
>>> inspiration when he created his famous starship captains James T. Kirk
>>> and Jean-Luc Picard."
>>> http://www.kyrackramer.com/2018/09/29/horatio-nelson-hornblower-prototype-and-hero-of-trafalgar/
>>>
>>> Kramer doesn't get into the similarities, but one that I noticed from
>>> her article is that Nelson got seasick. According to the Wikipedia
>>> article on Hornblower, that was a recurring motif in the novels:
>>> Hornblower "suffers from seasickness at the start of each of his voyages."
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Hornblower#Inspirations
>>

Well put, G.D.

On 2022-06-10 9:49 a.m., NancyGene wrote:
> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 1:16:50 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:48:48 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-09 8:52 p.m., W-Dockery wrote:
>>>> I know more about Horatio Hornblower's influence on Star Trek than I do
>>>> Horatio Nelson's influence on the Hornblower character, but from what
>>>> I've just read on Google, Horatio Hornblower was indeed based partially
>>>> on Horatio Nelson.
>>>> HTH and HAND.
>>> I see "Professor NancyGene" has returned to challenge your claim. So,
>>> while I'm not all that interested in Hornblower and Nelson, I was
>>> interested enough to do my own googling.
>>>
>>> Here's a website I found by Kyra Cornelius Kramer. She's not a literary
>>> expert; according to her bio, she's
>>>
>>> "an author and freelance medical anthropologist. She had BS degrees in
>>> both biology and anthropology from the University of Kentucky, as well
>>> as a MA in medical anthropology from Southern Methodist University."
> Which certainly makes her a go-to source for expert opinions on British Naval history.
>
>>>
>>> So she's just an amateur who knows something of the subject. How much, I
>>> can't say;
> Then why bring her up if she is not a credible source?
>
>>> but then, I can't say how much if anything Prof. NG knows
>>> about it either. So Kramer's opinion at least balances that off.
>> Well, no... she doesn't.
>
> No, she doesn't. It sounds like Ms. Kramer read shallowly of Nelson.

>>
>> You seem to have missed the point, George.
>>
>> Here's what the Wikipedia article said:
>>
>> "Inspirations
>> There are many parallels between Hornblower and real naval officers of the period, notably Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir George Cockburn, Lord Cochrane, Sir Edward Pellew, Jeremiah Coghlan, Sir James Gordon and Sir William Hoste."
>>
>> IOW: Hornblower was *inspired by* Nelson and many of his peers.
>>
>> He was not *based on* Nelson as both of the Splooges have claimed.
>>
>> "Inspired by" ≠ "based on."
>>
>> Words matter.
> George Dance skipped that part, as it was inconvenient to his argument.
>
OTC: I just replied to it. I was going to snip the whole discussion
here, but your comment inspired me to leave it in.
>>> "One of Nelson’s most interesting legacies is that he was the obvious
>>> model for Horatio Hornblower, the navy officer in a series of
>>> best-selling early 20th century novels by C. S. Forester. In turn, the
>>> protagonist of the Forester novels was the source of Gene Roddenberry‘s
>>> inspiration when he created his famous starship captains James T. Kirk
>>> and Jean-Luc Picard."
>>> http://www.kyrackramer.com/2018/09/29/horatio-nelson-hornblower-prototype-and-hero-of-trafalgar/
>>>
> "Obvious" is sometimes wrong.
Obviously. :)
> See below.
>
>>> Kramer doesn't get into the similarities, but one that I noticed from
>>> her article is that Nelson got seasick. According to the Wikipedia
>>> article on Hornblower, that was a recurring motif in the novels:
>>> Hornblower "suffers from seasickness at the start of each of his voyages."
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Hornblower#Inspirations
>
> So what? One in three people get seasick. Are they all emulating Nelson and Hornblower? We once spent a grueling half-day ocean fishing trip in the waters off San Diego. We were below deck puking the entire time. The rest of the passengers did not say, "Oh, they're just like Nelson and Hornblower!"
Did they have any reason to think you were both 19th-century British
midshipmen or Admirals? "Seasickness" is not the the only similarity in
Hornblower to Nelson.
> If George Dance is going to do research, he should go to primary sources. Who is more primary than C. S. Forester for the name of his character and the influences? From "The Hornblower Companion" – C. S. Forester (1964) p. 90:
>
> “One final point, before the Margaret Johnson sighted the Bishop Light and we entered the English Channel. This odd character had to have a name – so far he had been merely ‘he’ in my discussions with myself. He had to have a name which the readers would remember easily, which would stand out on the page, and which would not be confused with any other name. […] It would be desirable, but not entirely necessary for ‘him’ to have a slightly grotesque name – something more for his absurd self-consciousness to be disturbed about. The consideration of least weight – the merest milligram – was that ‘he’ was a slightly grotesque character, too. ‘Horatio’ came first to mind, and oddly enough not because of Nelson but because of Hamlet; but it met an essential requirement because it was a name with contemporary associations. Nelson was by no means the only Horatio in late Georgian times. Then, from Horatio, it seemed a natural and easy step to Hornblower. At one moment he was ‘he’; at the next, ‘Horatio’; and yet a moment later he was ‘Captain Horatio Hornblower of His Britannic Majesty’s Navy,’ and the last awkward corner was turned and the novel practically ready to be written, and there was England fully in sight on the port bow.”
> ----------
>
I have two thoughts simultaneously on that. Let me lead with the most
complimentary one:
(1) You deserve credit for finding this primary source. We're discussing
what Forester was thinking, so what he says he was thinking is a go-to
source and presumptively true. That's an expensive book, but I see it's
available on Open Library; if this discussion continues, I'll have to
see if I can borrow it.
(2) I think you've misread that paragraph; all that Forester is saying
is that his character was not *named after" Nelson. To use the logical
symbolism that Michael introduced:
"named after" ≠ "based on"


> "Thank God I have done my duty." - NG and "somebody else"

On 2022-06-14 12:36 a.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 11:55:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 5:50:16 PM UTC-4, Rocky Stoneberg wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/entertainment/books/1994/12/25/for-the-love-of-a-sailor/87290743-d0da-4780-8d5e-afa14bd9be86/
>>>
>>> *************Nelson was used by C.S. Forester as inspiration and model for Horatio Hornblower, the fictional seaman who in the course of a dozen novels rises through the Royal Navy from midshipman to lord admiral, along the way fighting a number of engagements notably similar to Nelson's.*******************
>> Yes, perhaps Forester changed his mind.
>
> No because that quote is not attributed to Forrester, don't you understand, or are you trying to rewrite what Forrester already wrote about the character HH's origin, like people are trying to write the Holocaust out of the history books?

The only quote from Forester that I've seen so far is the one NG posted,
of Forester saying that Horatio Hornblower was not *named after* Horatio
Nelson. Is that the one you mean?

>

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-06-10 9:49 a.m., NancyGene wrote:
>> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 1:16:50 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:48:48 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>> On 2022-06-09 8:52 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>
>>>>> I know more about Horatio Hornblower's influence on Star Trek than I do
>>>>> Horatio Nelson's influence on the Hornblower character, but from what
>>>>> I've just read on Google, Horatio Hornblower was indeed based partially
>>>>> on Horatio Nelson.
>>>>> HTH and HAND.
>>>> I see "Professor NancyGene" has returned to challenge your claim. So,
>>>> while I'm not all that interested in Hornblower and Nelson, I was
>>>> interested enough to do my own googling.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a website I found by Kyra Cornelius Kramer. She's not a literary
>>>> expert; according to her bio, she's
>>>>
>>>> "an author and freelance medical anthropologist. She had BS degrees in
>>>> both biology and anthropology from the University of Kentucky, as well
>>>> as a MA in medical anthropology from Southern Methodist University."
>> Which certainly makes her a go-to source for expert opinions on British Naval history.
>>
>>>>
>>>> So she's just an amateur who knows something of the subject. How much, I
>>>> can't say;
>> Then why bring her up if she is not a credible source?
>>
>>>> but then, I can't say how much if anything Prof. NG knows
>>>> about it either. So Kramer's opinion at least balances that off.
>>> Well, no... she doesn't.
>>
>> No, she doesn't. It sounds like Ms. Kramer read shallowly of Nelson.

>>>
>>> You seem to have missed the point, George.
>>>
>>> Here's what the Wikipedia article said:
>>>
>>> "Inspirations
>>> There are many parallels between Hornblower and real naval officers of the period, notably Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir George Cockburn, Lord Cochrane, Sir Edward Pellew, Jeremiah Coghlan, Sir James Gordon and Sir William Hoste."
>>>
>>> IOW: Hornblower was *inspired by* Nelson and many of his peers.
>>>
>>> He was not *based on* Nelson as both of the Splooges have claimed.
>>>
>>> "Inspired by" ≠ "based on."
>>>
>>> Words matter.
>> George Dance skipped that part, as it was inconvenient to his argument.
>>

> OTC: I just replied to it. I was going to snip the whole discussion
> here, but your comment inspired me to leave it in.

>>>> "One of Nelson’s most interesting legacies is that he was the obvious
>>>> model for Horatio Hornblower, the navy officer in a series of
>>>> best-selling early 20th century novels by C. S. Forester. In turn, the
>>>> protagonist of the Forester novels was the source of Gene Roddenberry‘s
>>>> inspiration when he created his famous starship captains James T. Kirk
>>>> and Jean-Luc Picard."
>>>> http://www.kyrackramer.com/2018/09/29/horatio-nelson-hornblower-prototype-and-hero-of-trafalgar/
>>>>
>> "Obvious" is sometimes wrong.

> Obviously. :)

>> See below.
>>
>>>> Kramer doesn't get into the similarities, but one that I noticed from
>>>> her article is that Nelson got seasick. According to the Wikipedia
>>>> article on Hornblower, that was a recurring motif in the novels:
>>>> Hornblower "suffers from seasickness at the start of each of his voyages."
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Hornblower#Inspirations
>>
>> So what? One in three people get seasick. Are they all emulating Nelson and Hornblower? We once spent a grueling half-day ocean fishing trip in the waters off San Diego. We were below deck puking the entire time. The rest of the passengers did not say, "Oh, they're just like Nelson and Hornblower!"

> Did they have any reason to think you were both 19th-century British
> midshipmen or Admirals? "Seasickness" is not the the only similarity in
> Hornblower to Nelson.

>> If George Dance is going to do research, he should go to primary sources. Who is more primary than C. S. Forester for the name of his character and the influences? From "The Hornblower Companion" – C. S. Forester (1964) p. 90:
>>
>> “One final point, before the Margaret Johnson sighted the Bishop Light and we entered the English Channel. This odd character had to have a name – so far he had been merely ‘he’ in my discussions with myself. He had to have a name which the readers would remember easily, which would stand out on the page, and which would not be confused with any other name. […] It would be desirable, but not entirely necessary for ‘him’ to have a slightly grotesque name – something more for his absurd self-consciousness to be disturbed about. The consideration of least weight – the merest milligram – was that ‘he’ was a slightly grotesque character, too. ‘Horatio’ came first to mind, and oddly enough not because of Nelson but because of Hamlet; but it met an essential requirement because it was a name with contemporary associations. Nelson was by no means the only Horatio in late Georgian times. Then, from Horatio, it seemed a natural and easy step to Hornblower. At one moment he was ‘he’; at the next, ‘Horatio’; and yet a moment later he was ‘Captain Horatio Hornblower of His Britannic Majesty’s Navy,’ and the last awkward corner was turned and the novel practically ready to be written, and there was England fully in sight on the port bow.”
>> ----------
>>

> I have two thoughts simultaneously on that. Let me lead with the most
> complimentary one:

> (1) You deserve credit for finding this primary source. We're discussing
> what Forester was thinking, so what he says he was thinking is a go-to
> source and presumptively true. That's an expensive book, but I see it's
> available on Open Library; if this discussion continues, I'll have to
> see if I can borrow it.

> (2) I think you've misread that paragraph; all that Forester is saying
> is that his character was not *named after" Nelson. To use the logical
> symbolism that Michael introduced:

> "named after" ≠ "based on"

>> "Thank God I have done my duty." - NG and "somebody else"

Quite a good read G.D. I thank you....

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 4:45:14 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-06-14 12:36 a.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 11:55:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 5:50:16 PM UTC-4, Rocky Stoneberg wrote:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/entertainment/books/1994/12/25/for-the-love-of-a-sailor/87290743-d0da-4780-8d5e-afa14bd9be86/
> >>>
> >>> *************Nelson was used by C.S. Forester as inspiration and model for Horatio Hornblower, the fictional seaman who in the course of a dozen novels rises through the Royal Navy from midshipman to lord admiral, along the way fighting a number of engagements notably similar to Nelson's.*******************
> >> Yes, perhaps Forester changed his mind.
> >
> > No because that quote is not attributed to Forrester, don't you understand, or are you trying to rewrite what Forrester already wrote about the character HH's origin, like people are trying to write the Holocaust out of the history books?
>
> The only quote from Forester that I've seen so far is the one NG posted,
> of Forester saying that Horatio Hornblower was not *named after* Horatio
> Nelson. Is that the one you mean?

Good catch, George

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 4:25:10 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-06-10 9:16 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > You seem to have missed the point, George.
> >
> > Here's what the Wikipedia article said:
> >
> > "Inspirations
> > There are many parallels between Hornblower and real naval officers of the period, notably Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir George Cockburn, Lord Cochrane, Sir Edward Pellew, Jeremiah Coghlan, Sir James Gordon and Sir William Hoste."
> >
> > IOW: Hornblower was *inspired by* Nelson and many of his peers.
> >
>
> No, the article says "there are many parallels" between Hornblower and
> Nelson and the other 6 (Nelson +6).
>
> "Many parallels (between A and B) ≠ A was "inspired" by B
>
> The one-way relation is probably true:
> A was inspired by B -> many parallels between A and B
>
> but it isn't valid to conclude:
> many parallels between A and B -> A was inspired by B
>
> > He was not *based on* Nelson as both of the Splooges have claimed.
> >
> > "Inspired by" ≠ "based on."
> >
>
> Fair enough; but no one's claiming that "inspired by" = "based on".

I suggest you scroll up a bit and reread.

WD: Horatio Hornblower was indeed based partially on Horatio Nelson.

> OTOH, it's also true that "inspired by" ≠ "not based on"; so all we get
> from the semantics is: maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

No one is saying that "inspired by" = "not based on."

"Inspired by" and "based on" mean different things.

Based on would be either a fictionalized biography, or, in this case, a biography a clef.

Inspired by means that the character/events bear some resemblance to the real life model, but the story is entirely fictional.

> > Words matter.
>
> Sure they do, in helping us discuss matters of fact. But word meanings
> do not determine matters of fact.

Where are you getting that from? No one has even hinted that the word choice between "inspired by" and "based on" will change the actual facts.

However, "inspired by" correctly describes the facts (the character was partially inspired by Nelson), whereas "based on" provides an untrue description.

> >> "One of Nelson’s most interesting legacies is that he was the obvious
> >> model for Horatio Hornblower, the navy officer in a series of
> >> best-selling early 20th century novels by C. S. Forester. In turn, the
> >> protagonist of the Forester novels was the source of Gene Roddenberry‘s
> >> inspiration when he created his famous starship captains James T. Kirk
> >> and Jean-Luc Picard."
> >> http://www.kyrackramer.com/2018/09/29/horatio-nelson-hornblower-prototype-and-hero-of-trafalgar/
> >>
> >> Kramer doesn't get into the similarities, but one that I noticed from
> >> her article is that Nelson got seasick. According to the Wikipedia
> >> article on Hornblower, that was a recurring motif in the novels:
> >> Hornblower "suffers from seasickness at the start of each of his voyages."
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Hornblower#Inspirations
> >

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 4:25:10 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-06-10 9:16 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >
>> > You seem to have missed the point, George.
>> >
>> > Here's what the Wikipedia article said:
>> >
>> > "Inspirations
>> > There are many parallels between Hornblower and real naval officers of the period, notably Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir George Cockburn, Lord Cochrane, Sir Edward Pellew, Jeremiah Coghlan, Sir James Gordon and Sir William Hoste."
>> >
>> > IOW: Hornblower was *inspired by* Nelson and many of his peers.
>> >
>>
>> No, the article says "there are many parallels" between Hornblower and
>> Nelson and the other 6 (Nelson +6).
>>
>> "Many parallels (between A and B) ≠ A was "inspired" by B
>>
>> The one-way relation is probably true:
>> A was inspired by B -> many parallels between A and B
>>
>> but it isn't valid to conclude:
>> many parallels between A and B -> A was inspired by B
>>
>> > He was not *based on* Nelson as both of the Splooges have claimed.
>> >
>> > "Inspired by" ≠ "based on."
>> >
>>
>> Fair enough; but no one's claiming that "inspired by" = "based on".

> I suggest you scroll up a bit and reread.

> WD: Horatio Hornblower was indeed based partially on Horatio Nelson.

>> OTOH, it's also true that "inspired by" ≠ "not based on"; so all we get
>> from the semantics is: maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

> No one is saying that "inspired by" = "not based on."

> "Inspired by" and "based on" mean different things.

> Based on would be either a fictionalized biography, or, in this case, a biography a clef.

> Inspired by means that the character/events bear some resemblance to the real life model, but the story is entirely fictional.

>> > Words matter.
>>
>> Sure they do, in helping us discuss matters of fact. But word meanings
>> do not determine matters of fact.

> Where are you getting that from? No one has even hinted that the word choice between "inspired by" and "based on" will change the actual facts.

> However, "inspired by" correctly describes the facts (the character was partially inspired by Nelson),

The author, C.S. Forester, apparently denied this, according to research by Nancy Gene.

whereas "based on" provides an untrue description.

>> >> "One of Nelson’s most interesting legacies is that he was the obvious
>> >> model for Horatio Hornblower, the navy officer in a series of
>> >> best-selling early 20th century novels by C. S. Forester. In turn, the
>> >> protagonist of the Forester novels was the source of Gene Roddenberry‘s
>> >> inspiration when he created his famous starship captains James T. Kirk
>> >> and Jean-Luc Picard."
>> >> http://www.kyrackramer.com/2018/09/29/horatio-nelson-hornblower-prototype-and-hero-of-trafalgar/
>> >>
>> >> Kramer doesn't get into the similarities, but one that I noticed from
>> >> her article is that Nelson got seasick. According to the Wikipedia
>> >> article on Hornblower, that was a recurring motif in the novels:
>> >> Hornblower "suffers from seasickness at the start of each of his voyages."
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Hornblower#Inspirations
>> >

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 11:05:16 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 4:25:10 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-06-10 9:16 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> >
> >> > You seem to have missed the point, George.
> >> >
> >> > Here's what the Wikipedia article said:
> >> >
> >> > "Inspirations
> >> > There are many parallels between Hornblower and real naval officers of the period, notably Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir George Cockburn, Lord Cochrane, Sir Edward Pellew, Jeremiah Coghlan, Sir James Gordon and Sir William Hoste."
> >> >
> >> > IOW: Hornblower was *inspired by* Nelson and many of his peers.
> >> >
> >>
> >> No, the article says "there are many parallels" between Hornblower and
> >> Nelson and the other 6 (Nelson +6).
> >>
> >> "Many parallels (between A and B) ≠ A was "inspired" by B
> >>
> >> The one-way relation is probably true:
> >> A was inspired by B -> many parallels between A and B
> >>
> >> but it isn't valid to conclude:
> >> many parallels between A and B -> A was inspired by B
> >>
> >> > He was not *based on* Nelson as both of the Splooges have claimed.
> >> >
> >> > "Inspired by" ≠ "based on."
> >> >
> >>
> >> Fair enough; but no one's claiming that "inspired by" = "based on".
>
> > I suggest you scroll up a bit and reread.
>
> > WD: Horatio Hornblower was indeed based partially on Horatio Nelson.
>
> >> OTOH, it's also true that "inspired by" ≠ "not based on"; so all we get
> >> from the semantics is: maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
>
> > No one is saying that "inspired by" = "not based on."
>
> > "Inspired by" and "based on" mean different things.
>
> > Based on would be either a fictionalized biography, or, in this case, a biography a clef.
>
> > Inspired by means that the character/events bear some resemblance to the real life model, but the story is entirely fictional.
>
>
> >> > Words matter.
> >>
> >> Sure they do, in helping us discuss matters of fact. But word meanings
> >> do not determine matters of fact.
>
> > Where are you getting that from? No one has even hinted that the word choice between "inspired by" and "based on" will change the actual facts.
>
> > However, "inspired by" correctly describes the facts (the character was partially inspired by Nelson),
> The author, C.S. Forester, apparently denied this, according to research by Nancy Gene.
> whereas "based on" provides an untrue description.

I'm not interested in debating what Forester may or may not have done, Donkey.

I'm only interested in the WORDS we use to discuss it.

You had originally used "based on" incorrectly.

I corrected you, and you uncharacteristically accepted my correction and amended your statement.

You would do best to leave it there. "Partially inspired by" is extremely difficult to disprove -- even for someone as knowledgeable as NancyGene.

And, I strongly suspect that Hornblower was partially inspired by Nelson. Hornblower was intended to be a mixture of many officers in the British Navy at that time. Forester must have realized that naming his character "Horatio" would cause many readers to suspect that he might be based on Nelson. He chose to stay with the name, so he apparently had no problem with any confusion it might cause.

Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> I strongly suspect that Hornblower was partially inspired by Nelson. Hornblower was intended to be a mixture of many officers in the British Navy at that time. Forester must have realized that naming his character "Horatio" would cause many readers to suspect that he might be based on Nelson. He chose to stay with the name, so he apparently had no problem with any confusion it might cause.

I'm good with this, Pendragon, since I basically agree with what you're saying about the Horatio Hornblower character was partially inspired by Horatio Nelson.

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 4:03:01 PM UTC-4, Family Guy wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 3:49:29 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > No thanks, I know the meaning of "perhaps".
> >
> >
> That's just a 'fantasy."

Not really.

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:26:23 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-4, HC wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 1:47:30 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 1:17:56 PM UTC-4, HC wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:42:49 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > Again, what is in my opinion, an example of Michael Pendragon's ignorant fantasies of book burning:
> > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/49a7-W02I0E/ydzf1mrlCgAJ
> > > > >
> > > > > > Speaking of mind-boggling ignorance, Michael Pendragon has plenty of it to spare:
> > > > >
> > > > > "I'd simply burn the garbage churned out by no-talent phonies like Bukowski, Kerouac and Ginsberg." -Michael Pendragon
> > > > > I'd call that a mind-boggling, ignorant fantasy from Michael Pendragon.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll let others decide for themselves.
> > > > >
> > > > > HTH and HAND.
> > > > I'd call it hyperbolic nincompoopery,
> > > > if nincompoopery was a real word, and
> > > > I wanted to challenge Michael's assertion.
> > > Will can't handle two-syllable words, much less five-syllable ones.
> > I'm not trying to tell him what to say, or argue with you, but
> > I think "Hyperbolic nincompoopery" would sound very funny
> > coming from someone with no discernable sense of humor.
> I agree. It's a wonderfully quaint and highly inventive phrase that adequately sums up the tongue-in-cheek style of many of my posts.
>
> BTW: it would make a great subtitle for a book of light verse:
>
> JESUS TOLD A FART JOKE
> The Hyperbolic Noncompoopery of
> J. Corey Hieronymous Connor
>
> or
>
> JESUS TOLD A FART JOKE
> And Other Hyperbolic Noncompoopery
> J. Corey Hieronymous Connor

FYI, anybody can spout nincompoopery, but noncompoopery is restricted to enlisted personnel only.

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:17:24 AM UTC, HC wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:26:23 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-4, HC wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 1:47:30 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 1:17:56 PM UTC-4, HC wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:42:49 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > Again, what is in my opinion, an example of Michael Pendragon's ignorant fantasies of book burning:
> > > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/49a7-W02I0E/ydzf1mrlCgAJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speaking of mind-boggling ignorance, Michael Pendragon has plenty of it to spare:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "I'd simply burn the garbage churned out by no-talent phonies like Bukowski, Kerouac and Ginsberg." -Michael Pendragon
> > > > > > I'd call that a mind-boggling, ignorant fantasy from Michael Pendragon.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll let others decide for themselves.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > HTH and HAND.
> > > > > I'd call it hyperbolic nincompoopery,
> > > > > if nincompoopery was a real word, and
> > > > > I wanted to challenge Michael's assertion.
> > > > Will can't handle two-syllable words, much less five-syllable ones.
> > > I'm not trying to tell him what to say, or argue with you, but
> > > I think "Hyperbolic nincompoopery" would sound very funny
> > > coming from someone with no discernable sense of humor.
> > I agree. It's a wonderfully quaint and highly inventive phrase that adequately sums up the tongue-in-cheek style of many of my posts.
> >
> > BTW: it would make a great subtitle for a book of light verse:
> >
> > JESUS TOLD A FART JOKE
> > The Hyperbolic Noncompoopery of
> > J. Corey Hieronymous Connor
> >
> > or
> >
> > JESUS TOLD A FART JOKE
> > And Other Hyperbolic Noncompoopery
> > J. Corey Hieronymous Connor
> FYI, anybody can spout nincompoopery, but noncompoopery is restricted to enlisted personnel only.
Would nuncompoopery become a habit?

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-06-14 12:36 a.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 11:55:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 5:50:16 PM UTC-4, Rocky Stoneberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/entertainment/books/1994/12/25/for-the-love-of-a-sailor/87290743-d0da-4780-8d5e-afa14bd9be86/
>>>>
>>>> *************Nelson was used by C.S. Forester as inspiration and model for Horatio Hornblower, the fictional seaman who in the course of a dozen novels rises through the Royal Navy from midshipman to lord admiral, along the way fighting a number of engagements notably similar to Nelson's.*******************
>>> Yes, perhaps Forester changed his mind.
>>
>> No because that quote is not attributed to Forrester, don't you understand, or are you trying to rewrite what Forrester already wrote about the character HH's origin, like people are trying to write the Holocaust out of the history books?

> The only quote from Forester that I've seen so far is the one NG posted,
> of Forester saying that Horatio Hornblower was not *named after* Horatio
> Nelson. Is that the one you mean?

"Inspired by" is looking likely.

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 10:28:12 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:17:24 AM UTC, HC wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:26:23 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-4, HC wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 1:47:30 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 1:17:56 PM UTC-4, HC wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:42:49 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > Again, what is in my opinion, an example of Michael Pendragon's ignorant fantasies of book burning:
> > > > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/49a7-W02I0E/ydzf1mrlCgAJ
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Speaking of mind-boggling ignorance, Michael Pendragon has plenty of it to spare:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "I'd simply burn the garbage churned out by no-talent phonies like Bukowski, Kerouac and Ginsberg." -Michael Pendragon
> > > > > > > I'd call that a mind-boggling, ignorant fantasy from Michael Pendragon.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll let others decide for themselves.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > HTH and HAND.
> > > > > > I'd call it hyperbolic nincompoopery,
> > > > > > if nincompoopery was a real word, and
> > > > > > I wanted to challenge Michael's assertion.
> > > > > Will can't handle two-syllable words, much less five-syllable ones.
> > > > I'm not trying to tell him what to say, or argue with you, but
> > > > I think "Hyperbolic nincompoopery" would sound very funny
> > > > coming from someone with no discernable sense of humor.
> > > I agree. It's a wonderfully quaint and highly inventive phrase that adequately sums up the tongue-in-cheek style of many of my posts.
> > >
> > > BTW: it would make a great subtitle for a book of light verse:
> > >
> > > JESUS TOLD A FART JOKE
> > > The Hyperbolic Noncompoopery of
> > > J. Corey Hieronymous Connor
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > > JESUS TOLD A FART JOKE
> > > And Other Hyperbolic Noncompoopery
> > > J. Corey Hieronymous Connor
> > FYI, anybody can spout nincompoopery, but noncompoopery is restricted to enlisted personnel only.
> Would nuncompoopery become a habit?

Nuncompoopery can be an unbecoming habit.

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:11:17 PM UTC-4, Family Guy wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:00:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Your quote is about burning poetry, Pendragon.
> >
> > I suspect more than two people would call that fantasy of yours ignorant.
> >
> > HTH and HAND.
> I didn't think

That's believable.

🙂

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 4:08:18 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:11:17 PM UTC-4, Family Guy wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:00:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > Your quote is about burning poetry, Pendragon.
> > >
> > > I suspect more than two people would call that fantasy of yours ignorant.
> > >
> > > HTH and HAND.
> > I didn't think
>
> That's believable.
>
> 🙂

Perhaps.

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:16:51 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:12:53 AM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 9:49:29 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > I stand humbled yet again-- Devil, you infernal scoundrel why do you mock me so!
> > >
> > > Dirge
> > > On the Death of Lord Nelson
> > > Anon
> > > The Morning Chronicle (November 8, 1805)
> > >
> > > Why o'er the dark and troubled deep
> > > Is heard at times a mournful noise;
> > > While Victors midst their triumphs weep,
> > > The vanquish'd in their fall rejoice!
> > >
> > > Why burst the sobs of yonder Tars,
> > > But now triumphant o'er the foe;
> > > Unmindful of their gory scars,
> > > Their tears that now first learn to flow?
> > >
> > > For NELSON'S death their tears are shed,
> > > And grief alone their thoughts employs;
> > > Ev'n Vict'ry's self reclines her head,
> > > And weeping checks her wonted joys.
> > >
> > > Thy deeds, great Chief, shall be the theme,
> > > Afar on Ganges' hallow'd shores;
> > > While Niagara's lightening stream,
> > > Thy dreaded name in thunder roars.
> > >
> > > Stern MARS, as 'midst the fight he raves,
> > > Shall ev'ry dreadful peal prolong;
> > > And NEPTUNE roll his gory waves,
> > > To sound their fav'rite's fun'ral song.
> > >
> > > And while on high her Warrior's tomb
> > > Thy weeping country grateful rears;
> > > Thy laurels o'er it e'er shall bloom,
> > > Still water'd by a Nation's tears.
> > >
> > > from Romantic Circles https://romantic-circles.org/editions/warpoetry/1805/1805_8.html
> > >
> > > Anon may be the greatest, so many works in their name!
> > > and Anon says that they have aged quite graciously
> >
> > Oh the Woe! the Shame! the Ignominy! I was told to be here for the Poetry, but we see He that told us so is not so interested in poetry we bring to He.
> >
> > The Battle of Trafalgar, A Heroic Poem.
> > By William Hamilton Drummond
> > (Belfast: Smyth and Lyons, 1806)
> > Bibliography of Nineteenth-Century Irish Literature
> > at Dalhousie University (http://irish-literature.english.dal.ca/texts/trafalgar-bk1.htm)" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://irish-literature.english.dal.ca/texts/trafalgar-bk1.htm)
> >
> > Lord Admiral Nelson in the Victory, leading one column of ships: the Temeraire, the Neptune, the Conqueror, the Leviathan, the Ajax, the Orion, the Agamemnon, the Minotaur, the Spartiate, the Britannia and the Africa. Also with him was the second column led by Admiral Collingwood in the Royal Sovereign, followed by the Mars, the Belleisle, the Tonnant, the Bellerophon, the Colossus, the Achilles, the Polypheme, the Revenge, the Swiftsure, the Defence, the Thunderer, the Defiance, the Prince and the Dreadnought to penetrate the line of the French and Spanish fleets that outnumbered and outgunned his fleet. Such names!
> > The signal "England confides that every man will do his duty*" was given and so the battle begun.
> > And in celebration and mourning of the victory it was written:
> >
> > WHAT flags low-streaming o'er the murmuring deep,
> > In mournful triumph, bid Britannia weep?
> > What sounds of sorrow reach the listening shore?
> > "Mourn, Albion, mourn, thy Nelson is no more!"
> > While grief and joy their tides alternate roll,
> > In rapid eddies, o'er thy troubled soul;
> > With tearful smiles, thy blushing laurels view,
> > Bedropped with blood, and twined with funeral yew;
> > The hard-earned trophies from Iberia won,
> > Or torn from Gallia, by thy bravest son.
> >
> > Let Caledonia robed in sable vest,
> > Her locks loose-floating o'er her throbbing breast,
> > In all the sweet solemnity of woe,
> > Bid the sad dirge in weeping numbers flow;
> > ‘Till hill, and vale, and rock, and echoing dell
> > Resound the wild-notes of the deep-toned shell,
> > In hollow cadence to thy wild-wave's roar,
> > "Mourn, Britain, mourn! thy Nelson is no more!"
> >
> > Thou too, green Erin! join the plaintive lay,
> > And mourn, with me, Trafalgar's fatal day:
> > Touched with the sacred sympathy of song,
> > High on thy bleeting cliffs the dirge prolong;
> > Pour thy lorn sorrows on the sighing gale,
> > And let thy thrilling harp repeat the tale;
> > While tears, fast-gushing from their copious springs,
> > In trembling radiance glisten on the strings;
> > Waft the sad strain around thy emerald shore,
> > "Nelson the brave, the mighty is no more!"
> >
> > But ye, proud foes of Britain! loud rejoice,
> > Rise from defeat, and lift th' exulting voice:
> > The prince of ocean, Albion's brightest star,
> > Bronte's dread lord, that thunderbolt of war,
> > Whose haughty ship, with blazing flag unfurled,
> > Bore Britain's glory round the subject world,
> > With storm and battle shook each hostile shore;
> > Nelson, your scourge, your terror is no more!
> >
> >
> > Another interesting subject brought up in Note 4:
> >
> > "It may be difficult to mark the exact boundary of what should be termed plagiarism: where the sentiment and expression are both borrowed without due acknowledgement, there can be no doubt:--single words, on the contrary, taken from other authors, cannot convict a writer of plagiarism: they are lawful game, wild by nature; the property of all who can capture them--and, perhaps, a few common flowers of speech may be gathered as we pass our neighbour's inclosure, without stigmatizing us with the title of thieves but we must not therefore plunder his cultivated fruit."
> > ~~ DARWIN
> > also from :
> > http://irish-literature.english.dal.ca/texts/trafalgar-bk1.htm
> >
> > * and so will the battle over that will begin...
> Interesting finds, Ash.

About time, I hope my efforts were worth people's consideration-- so much to be inspired by.

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 4:58:59 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:16:51 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 2:12:53 AM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
>
> > > > I stand humbled yet again-- Devil, you infernal scoundrel why do you mock me so!
> > > >
> > > > Dirge
> > > > On the Death of Lord Nelson
> > > > Anon
> > > > The Morning Chronicle (November 8, 1805)
> > > >
> > > > Why o'er the dark and troubled deep
> > > > Is heard at times a mournful noise;
> > > > While Victors midst their triumphs weep,
> > > > The vanquish'd in their fall rejoice!
> > > >
> > > > Why burst the sobs of yonder Tars,
> > > > But now triumphant o'er the foe;
> > > > Unmindful of their gory scars,
> > > > Their tears that now first learn to flow?
> > > >
> > > > For NELSON'S death their tears are shed,
> > > > And grief alone their thoughts employs;
> > > > Ev'n Vict'ry's self reclines her head,
> > > > And weeping checks her wonted joys.
> > > >
> > > > Thy deeds, great Chief, shall be the theme,
> > > > Afar on Ganges' hallow'd shores;
> > > > While Niagara's lightening stream,
> > > > Thy dreaded name in thunder roars.
> > > >
> > > > Stern MARS, as 'midst the fight he raves,
> > > > Shall ev'ry dreadful peal prolong;
> > > > And NEPTUNE roll his gory waves,
> > > > To sound their fav'rite's fun'ral song.
> > > >
> > > > And while on high her Warrior's tomb
> > > > Thy weeping country grateful rears;
> > > > Thy laurels o'er it e'er shall bloom,
> > > > Still water'd by a Nation's tears.
> > > >
> > > > from Romantic Circles https://romantic-circles.org/editions/warpoetry/1805/1805_8.html
> > > >
> > > > Anon may be the greatest, so many works in their name!
> > > > and Anon says that they have aged quite graciously
> > >
> > > Oh the Woe! the Shame! the Ignominy! I was told to be here for the Poetry, but we see He that told us so is not so interested in poetry we bring to He.
> > >
> > > The Battle of Trafalgar, A Heroic Poem.
> > > By William Hamilton Drummond
> > > (Belfast: Smyth and Lyons, 1806)
> > > Bibliography of Nineteenth-Century Irish Literature
> > > at Dalhousie University (http://irish-literature.english.dal.ca/texts/trafalgar-bk1.htm)" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://irish-literature.english.dal.ca/texts/trafalgar-bk1.htm)
> > >
> > > Lord Admiral Nelson in the Victory, leading one column of ships: the Temeraire, the Neptune, the Conqueror, the Leviathan, the Ajax, the Orion, the Agamemnon, the Minotaur, the Spartiate, the Britannia and the Africa. Also with him was the second column led by Admiral Collingwood in the Royal Sovereign, followed by the Mars, the Belleisle, the Tonnant, the Bellerophon, the Colossus, the Achilles, the Polypheme, the Revenge, the Swiftsure, the Defence, the Thunderer, the Defiance, the Prince and the Dreadnought to penetrate the line of the French and Spanish fleets that outnumbered and outgunned his fleet. Such names!
> > > The signal "England confides that every man will do his duty*" was given and so the battle begun.
> > > And in celebration and mourning of the victory it was written:
> > >
> > > WHAT flags low-streaming o'er the murmuring deep,
> > > In mournful triumph, bid Britannia weep?
> > > What sounds of sorrow reach the listening shore?
> > > "Mourn, Albion, mourn, thy Nelson is no more!"
> > > While grief and joy their tides alternate roll,
> > > In rapid eddies, o'er thy troubled soul;
> > > With tearful smiles, thy blushing laurels view,
> > > Bedropped with blood, and twined with funeral yew;
> > > The hard-earned trophies from Iberia won,
> > > Or torn from Gallia, by thy bravest son.
> > >
> > > Let Caledonia robed in sable vest,
> > > Her locks loose-floating o'er her throbbing breast,
> > > In all the sweet solemnity of woe,
> > > Bid the sad dirge in weeping numbers flow;
> > > ‘Till hill, and vale, and rock, and echoing dell
> > > Resound the wild-notes of the deep-toned shell,
> > > In hollow cadence to thy wild-wave's roar,
> > > "Mourn, Britain, mourn! thy Nelson is no more!"
> > >
> > > Thou too, green Erin! join the plaintive lay,
> > > And mourn, with me, Trafalgar's fatal day:
> > > Touched with the sacred sympathy of song,
> > > High on thy bleeting cliffs the dirge prolong;
> > > Pour thy lorn sorrows on the sighing gale,
> > > And let thy thrilling harp repeat the tale;
> > > While tears, fast-gushing from their copious springs,
> > > In trembling radiance glisten on the strings;
> > > Waft the sad strain around thy emerald shore,
> > > "Nelson the brave, the mighty is no more!"
> > >
> > > But ye, proud foes of Britain! loud rejoice,
> > > Rise from defeat, and lift th' exulting voice:
> > > The prince of ocean, Albion's brightest star,
> > > Bronte's dread lord, that thunderbolt of war,
> > > Whose haughty ship, with blazing flag unfurled,
> > > Bore Britain's glory round the subject world,
> > > With storm and battle shook each hostile shore;
> > > Nelson, your scourge, your terror is no more!
> > >
> > >
> > > Another interesting subject brought up in Note 4:
> > >
> > > "It may be difficult to mark the exact boundary of what should be termed plagiarism: where the sentiment and expression are both borrowed without due acknowledgement, there can be no doubt:--single words, on the contrary, taken from other authors, cannot convict a writer of plagiarism: they are lawful game, wild by nature; the property of all who can capture them--and, perhaps, a few common flowers of speech may be gathered as we pass our neighbour's inclosure, without stigmatizing us with the title of thieves but we must not therefore plunder his cultivated fruit."
> > > ~~ DARWIN
> > > also from :
> > > http://irish-literature.english.dal.ca/texts/trafalgar-bk1.htm
> > >
> > > * and so will the battle over that will begin...
> > Interesting finds, Ash.
>
> About time, I hope my efforts were worth people's consideration-- so much to be inspired by.

Agreed and seconded....

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 11:28:32 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> No, this statement of yours is definitely ignorant, Pendragon:
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/49a7-W02I0E/ydzf1mrlCgAJ
>
> > Speaking of mind-boggling ignorance, Michael Pendragon has plenty of it to spare:
>
> "I'd simply burn the garbage churned out by no-talent phonies like Bukowski, Kerouac and Ginsberg." -Michael Pendragon

Speaking of mind-boggling ignorance, Will Dockery has plenty of it to spare, let us not forget:

"Yes, the package looked good, your poetry is mostly garbage, as usual, Corey. Sad but true."
Will Dockery, November 26, 2021 at 3:56:54 PM UTC-5
"New Look" thread by HC
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/8RlRmu_B-XU/m/rqxACRojBQAJ

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-06-10 9:16 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> You seem to have missed the point, George.
>>
>> Here's what the Wikipedia article said:
>>
>> "Inspirations
>> There are many parallels between Hornblower and real naval officers of the period, notably Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson, Sir George Cockburn, Lord Cochrane, Sir Edward Pellew, Jeremiah Coghlan, Sir James Gordon and Sir William Hoste."
>>
>> IOW: Hornblower was *inspired by* Nelson and many of his peers.
>>

> No, the article says "there are many parallels" between Hornblower and
> Nelson and the other 6 (Nelson +6).

> "Many parallels (between A and B) ≠ A was "inspired" by B

> The one-way relation is probably true:
> A was inspired by B -> many parallels between A and B

> but it isn't valid to conclude:
> many parallels between A and B -> A was inspired by B

>> He was not *based on* Nelson as both of the Splooges have claimed.
>>
>> "Inspired by" ≠ "based on."
>>

> Fair enough; but no one's claiming that "inspired by" = "based on".

> OTOH, it's also true that "inspired by" ≠ "not based on"; so all we get
> from the semantics is: maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

>> Words matter.

> Sure they do, in helping us discuss matters of fact. But word meanings
> do not determine matters of fact.
>>
>>> "One of Nelson’s most interesting legacies is that he was the obvious
>>> model for Horatio Hornblower, the navy officer in a series of
>>> best-selling early 20th century novels by C. S. Forester. In turn, the
>>> protagonist of the Forester novels was the source of Gene Roddenberry‘s
>>> inspiration when he created his famous starship captains James T. Kirk
>>> and Jean-Luc Picard."
>>> http://www.kyrackramer.com/2018/09/29/horatio-nelson-hornblower-prototype-and-hero-of-trafalgar/
>>>
>>> Kramer doesn't get into the similarities, but one that I noticed from
>>> her article is that Nelson got seasick. According to the Wikipedia
>>> article on Hornblower, that was a recurring motif in the novels:
>>> Hornblower "suffers from seasickness at the start of each of his voyages."
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Hornblower#Inspirations
>>

Quite interesting....

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 11:28:32 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > No, this statement of yours is definitely ignorant, Pendragon:
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/49a7-W02I0E/ydzf1mrlCgAJ
> >
> > > Speaking of mind-boggling ignorance, Michael Pendragon has plenty of it to spare:
> >
> > "I'd simply burn the garbage churned out by no-talent phonies like Bukowski, Kerouac and Ginsberg." -Michael Pendragon
> Speaking of mind-boggling ignorance, Will Dockery has plenty of it

to spare, let us not forget:
>
> "Yes, the package looked good, your poetry is mostly garbage, as usual, Corey. Sad but true."

No fantasies of book burning, though.

🙂

> Will Dockery, November 26, 2021 at 3:56:54 PM UTC-5
> "New Look" thread by HC
> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/8RlRmu_B-XU/m/rqxACRojBQAJ