On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 6:22:04 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> >>>
> >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> >>> But they, while their companions slept,
> >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> >>>
> >>
> >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> >>
> >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> >>
> >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> >
> > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> > poem.
>
> No biggie. I was able to find one on a reputable site easily enough. I
> can post it in here:
> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44636/the-ladder-of-st-augustine

Good one, thanks George.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:06:09 AM UTC-5, blackpo...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > > > > On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> > > > > > > > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> > > > > > > >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> > > > > > > >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> > > > > > > >>> But they, while their companions slept,
> > > > > > > >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> > > > > > > > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> > > > > > > > poem.
> > > > > > > Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> > > > > > > In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
> > > > > > > with every poem or quotation you post.
> > > > > > I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
> > > > > > is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
> > > > > > is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
> > > > > > readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
> > > > > I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
> > > > >
> > > > > You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
> > > > >
> > > > > "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
> > > > > intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
> > > > > theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
> > > > >
> > > > > I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
> > > > I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
> > > > and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
> > > > FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
> > > > think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
> > > > you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
> > > Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
> > The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
> > it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
> > it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.
> So now Michael is your target for asking some kind of structure.
>
> You post on everything...now I see you at AYoS with a "plonk" comment.
>
> Your 'courtesy' is overrated.

Good morning, Jim. My comment was on the elusive nature of common courtesy,
not Michael. If it isn’t fully apparent in the tone of my commentary, bad on me for
being an incompetent writer. I thoroughly enjoy reading Michael. You also, for that
matter. I’m here because I enjoy myself, as well as the people I come here to read.
I’m not here to complain about things I can’t change, or people who aren’t worth it.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:14:46 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:06:09 AM UTC-5, blackpo...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> > > > > > > > > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> > > > > > > > >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> > > > > > > > >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> > > > > > > > >>> But they, while their companions slept,
> > > > > > > > >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> > > > > > > > > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> > > > > > > > > poem.
> > > > > > > > Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> > > > > > > > In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
> > > > > > > > with every poem or quotation you post.
> > > > > > > I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
> > > > > > > is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
> > > > > > > is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
> > > > > > > readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
> > > > > > I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
> > > > > > intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
> > > > > > theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
> > > > > I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
> > > > > and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
> > > > > FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
> > > > > think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
> > > > > you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
> > > > Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
> > > The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
> > > it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
> > > it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.
> > So now Michael is your target for asking some kind of structure.
> >
> > You post on everything...now I see you at AYoS with a "plonk" comment.
> >
> > Your 'courtesy' is overrated.
> Good morning, Jim. My comment was on the elusive nature of common courtesy,
> not Michael. If it isn’t fully apparent in the tone of my commentary, bad on me for
> being an incompetent writer. I thoroughly enjoy reading Michael. You also, for that
> matter. I’m here because I enjoy myself, as well as the people I come here to read.
> I’m not here to complain about things I can’t change, or people who aren’t worth it.

Good morning back.

I'd like to ask you to not bring your courtesy to the AYoS in the form of "plonk" comment.

Please post poetry in the last place we can without nonsense.

Thanks

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo..ca wrote:
> > > > > > On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> > > > > > > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> > > > > > >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> > > > > > >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> > > > > > >>> But they, while their companions slept,
> > > > > > >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> > > > > > > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> > > > > > > poem.
> > > > > > Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> > > > > > In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
> > > > > > with every poem or quotation you post.
> > > > > I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
> > > > > is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
> > > > > is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
> > > > > readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
> > > > I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
> > > >
> > > > You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
> > > >
> > > > "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
> > > > intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
> > > > theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
> > > >
> > > > I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
> > > >
> > > > Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
> > > I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
> > > and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
> > > FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
> > > think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
> > > you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
> > Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
> The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
> it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
> it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.

I disagree.

I think that most of us are naturally courteous, and that we prefer civil discussions to flame wars.

When dealing with trolls (and we are dealing with trolls), we need to make a concerted effort to maintain courtesy amongst ourselves, and to strive for some semblance of structure amidst the chaos trolls create.

It is at such times that Guidelines become essential. If we can adhere to the Guidelines in spite of the trolls, they become nothing more than an annoyance -- that can be reported, blocked, and ignored. AAPC continues to function as a forum in which poets can post original poetry and discuss one another's work *in spite of the trolls.*

I plan on remaining courteous to others (trolls excepted), and don't care how silly it makes me appear.

Will Dockery wrote:

> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 6:22:04 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
>> > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
>> >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
>> >>>
>> >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
>> >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
>> >>> But they, while their companions slept,
>> >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
>> >>
>> >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
>> >>
>> >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
>> >
>> > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
>> > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
>> > poem.
>>
>> No biggie. I was able to find one on a reputable site easily enough. I
>> can post it in here:
>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
>> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44636/the-ladder-of-st-augustine

> Good one, thanks George.

Seconded...

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:02:55 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-13 2:27 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:23:17 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:21:44 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 4:19:21 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:32:31 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
> >>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 1:19:21 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:59:39 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
> >>>>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 AM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:51 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
> >>>>>>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 1:09:19 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> >>>>>>>>>>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> >>>>>>>>>>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> >>>>>>>>>>> But they, while their companions slept,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Mack.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Please see 8) in our Guidelines, below:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> AAPC OFFICIAL GUIDELINES & FAQS
> >>>>>>>>> Please feel free to kill file me, but your group is too undisciplined
> >>>>>>>>> to have rules. What percentage of the group's posts are flames? This
> >>>>>>>>> is why I haven't been here too much. You need to crack down on
> >>>>>>>>> trouble makers.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately, you are choosing to make yourself one of the troublemakers.
> >>>>>>> Then you will miss what I have to offer, won't you?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Unfortunately, one cannot miss posts. One can only block them after the fact.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I mentioned to another group that I post what makes me feel good. I
> >>>>>>> avoid flaming, and that is to say you can take it or leave it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is a *discussion* group. If you want to post poetry by well known authors, you should do so at rec.arts.poems. That is what that group was created for.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you continue to post such poetry here without comments, you *are* flaming the group -- and shall be treated like a troll for doing so.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Your choice.
> >>>>> How many posts in this group get 29 replies? Granted, a few of the
> >>>>> posts are mine.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You will miss the train because you are arguing with the tricket
> >>>>> master (for this thread). Open your eyes, ears and most of all your
> >>>>> mind.
> >>>> Well put.
> >>> What's "well put,
> >> Mack's post.
> >
> > Mack's whacked. What's a "tricket" and how does one master it?
>
>
> If you find a word you don't understand, Michael, try to read it in
> context.
>
> In this case, he's using using a metaphor: comparing your overlooking
> the poem to argue with him, to missing a train because you were arguing
> with the *tricket* master.
>
> Now use context. What do you need to do when you board a train? Why, buy
> a "ticket". And from whom do you purchase the ticket? Why from the
> "ticket-master."
>
> Had you been able to do that, you would have realised that "tricket" was
> just a typo for "ticket." Not being able to read in context, you got
> confused and couldn't understand the sentence due to a simple typo,
> something you've done repeatedly in the past.
>
> I hope this advice helps you avoid similar goofs in the future.

Pendragon can't help but attempt to be a know-it-all smartass, as you know.

HTH and HAND.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:18:57 AM UTC-5, blackpo...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:14:46 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:06:09 AM UTC-5, blackpo...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> > > > > > > > > > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> > > > > > > > > >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> > > > > > > > > >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> > > > > > > > > >>> But they, while their companions slept,
> > > > > > > > > >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> > > > > > > > > > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> > > > > > > > > > poem.
> > > > > > > > > Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> > > > > > > > > In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
> > > > > > > > > with every poem or quotation you post.
> > > > > > > > I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
> > > > > > > > is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
> > > > > > > > is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
> > > > > > > > readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
> > > > > > > I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
> > > > > > > intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
> > > > > > > theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
> > > > > > I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
> > > > > > and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
> > > > > > FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
> > > > > > think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
> > > > > > you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
> > > > > Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
> > > > The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
> > > > it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
> > > > it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.
> > > So now Michael is your target for asking some kind of structure.
> > >
> > > You post on everything...now I see you at AYoS with a "plonk" comment..
> > >
> > > Your 'courtesy' is overrated.
> > Good morning, Jim. My comment was on the elusive nature of common courtesy,
> > not Michael. If it isn’t fully apparent in the tone of my commentary, bad on me for
> > being an incompetent writer. I thoroughly enjoy reading Michael. You also, for that
> > matter. I’m here because I enjoy myself, as well as the people I come here to read.
> > I’m not here to complain about things I can’t change, or people who aren’t worth it.
> Good morning back.
>
> I'd like to ask you to not bring your courtesy to the AYoS in the form of "plonk" comment.
>
> Please post poetry in the last place we can without nonsense.
>
> Thanks

You can ask, I suppose. I don't suppose it will do you any good, and
it would probably be a complete waste of our time, but you can ask.

That's what I meant.

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:02:55 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-13 2:27 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:23:17 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:21:44 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 4:19:21 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:32:31 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
> >>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 1:19:21 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:59:39 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
> >>>>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 AM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:51 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
> >>>>>>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 1:09:19 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> >>>>>>>>>>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> >>>>>>>>>>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> >>>>>>>>>>> But they, while their companions slept,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Mack.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Please see 8) in our Guidelines, below:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> AAPC OFFICIAL GUIDELINES & FAQS
> >>>>>>>>> Please feel free to kill file me, but your group is too undisciplined
> >>>>>>>>> to have rules. What percentage of the group's posts are flames? This
> >>>>>>>>> is why I haven't been here too much. You need to crack down on
> >>>>>>>>> trouble makers.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately, you are choosing to make yourself one of the troublemakers.
> >>>>>>> Then you will miss what I have to offer, won't you?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Unfortunately, one cannot miss posts. One can only block them after the fact.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I mentioned to another group that I post what makes me feel good. I
> >>>>>>> avoid flaming, and that is to say you can take it or leave it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is a *discussion* group. If you want to post poetry by well known authors, you should do so at rec.arts.poems. That is what that group was created for.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you continue to post such poetry here without comments, you *are* flaming the group -- and shall be treated like a troll for doing so.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Your choice.
> >>>>> How many posts in this group get 29 replies? Granted, a few of the
> >>>>> posts are mine.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You will miss the train because you are arguing with the tricket
> >>>>> master (for this thread). Open your eyes, ears and most of all your
> >>>>> mind.
> >>>> Well put.
> >>> What's "well put,
> >> Mack's post.
> >
> > Mack's whacked. What's a "tricket" and how does one master it?
>
>
> If you find a word you don't understand, Michael, try to read it in
> context.
>
> In this case, he's using using a metaphor: comparing your overlooking
> the poem to argue with him, to missing a train because you were arguing
> with the *tricket* master.
>
> Now use context. What do you need to do when you board a train? Why, buy
> a "ticket". And from whom do you purchase the ticket? Why from the
> "ticket-master."
>
> Had you been able to do that, you would have realised that "tricket" was
> just a typo for "ticket." Not being able to read in context, you got
> confused and couldn't understand the sentence due to a simple typo,
> something you've done repeatedly in the past.
>
> I hope this advice helps you avoid similar goofs in the future.

The only "goof" in question (since I'm not ignoring you) would be Mack's spelling error.

And, since Mack is, IMHO, a troll, you can rest assured that I shall continue to mock Mack until he cracks (beyond his normal state of being crackers).

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> >>>
> >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> >>> But they, while their companions slept,
> >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> >>>
> >>
> >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> >>
> >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> >>
> >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> >
> > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> > poem.
> Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
>
>
> He's been asking (and now demanding)

And often whining.

that you post "original commentary"
> with every poem or quotation you post.

....

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:43:52 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > > > > On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> > > > > > > > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> > > > > > > >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> > > > > > > >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> > > > > > > >>> But they, while their companions slept,
> > > > > > > >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> > > > > > > > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> > > > > > > > poem.
> > > > > > > Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> > > > > > > In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
> > > > > > > with every poem or quotation you post.
> > > > > > I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
> > > > > > is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
> > > > > > is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
> > > > > > readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
> > > > > I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
> > > > >
> > > > > You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
> > > > >
> > > > > "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
> > > > > intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
> > > > > theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
> > > > >
> > > > > I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
> > > > I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
> > > > and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
> > > > FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
> > > > think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
> > > > you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
> > > Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
> > The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
> > it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
> > it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.
> I disagree.
>
> I think that most of us are naturally courteous, and that we prefer civil discussions to flame wars.
>
> When dealing with trolls (and we are dealing with trolls), we need to make a concerted effort to maintain courtesy amongst ourselves, and to strive for some semblance of structure amidst the chaos trolls create.
>
> It is at such times that Guidelines become essential. If we can adhere to the Guidelines in spite of the trolls, they become nothing more than an annoyance -- that can be reported, blocked, and ignored. AAPC continues to function as a forum in which poets can post original poetry and discuss one another's work *in spite of the trolls.*
>
> I plan on remaining courteous to others (trolls excepted), and don't care how silly it makes me appear.

If you’re trying to disagree with me, you’re not doing it very well.
Of course most of us are naturally courteous, and prefer civility.
My comment concerns our actions in light of others incivility.

The structure you seek is in the maintenance of, and focus on
interpersonal relationships, like yours and mine, that demonstrate
their value on this platform, in this type of written communication.

Calling people trolls is an ineffective method of influencing behavior.
People will change their behavior when they hurt themselves, or when
you demonstrate a better, more effective way of communicating.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:43:52 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> > > > > > > > > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> > > > > > > > >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> > > > > > > > >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> > > > > > > > >>> But they, while their companions slept,
> > > > > > > > >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> > > > > > > > > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> > > > > > > > > poem.
> > > > > > > > Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> > > > > > > > In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
> > > > > > > > with every poem or quotation you post.
> > > > > > > I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
> > > > > > > is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
> > > > > > > is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
> > > > > > > readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
> > > > > > I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
> > > > > > intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
> > > > > > theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
> > > > > I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
> > > > > and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
> > > > > FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
> > > > > think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
> > > > > you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
> > > > Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
> > > The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
> > > it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
> > > it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.
> > I disagree.
> >
> > I think that most of us are naturally courteous, and that we prefer civil discussions to flame wars.
> >
> > When dealing with trolls (and we are dealing with trolls), we need to make a concerted effort to maintain courtesy amongst ourselves, and to strive for some semblance of structure amidst the chaos trolls create.
> >
> > It is at such times that Guidelines become essential. If we can adhere to the Guidelines in spite of the trolls, they become nothing more than an annoyance -- that can be reported, blocked, and ignored. AAPC continues to function as a forum in which poets can post original poetry and discuss one another's work *in spite of the trolls.*
> >
> > I plan on remaining courteous to others (trolls excepted), and don't care how silly it makes me appear.
> If you’re trying to disagree with me, you’re not doing it very well.
> Of course most of us are naturally courteous, and prefer civility.
> My comment concerns our actions in light of others incivility.
>
> The structure you seek is in the maintenance of, and focus on
> interpersonal relationships, like yours and mine, that demonstrate
> their value on this platform, in this type of written communication.
>
> Calling people trolls is an ineffective method of influencing behavior.
> People will change their behavior when they hurt themselves, or when
> you demonstrate a better, more effective way of communicating.

You're assuming that we are dealing with people.

At this point, I no longer believe that "Team Donkey" (a.k.a., George Dance, Will Donkey, General Stink, and Jordy's Pervy Uncle) has any desire to have AAPC function as intended. George Dance wants to use it as an ad for his blog; Will Donkey wants to use it as his personal message board (and general self-aggrandizement), and the General and Uncle Isaac just want to slurp the Donkey's ego.

I don't expect any of them to change their behavior -- regardless of what we do.

They are here to stay, and they will continue to disrupt the group, incite flame wars, and make general nuisances of themselves.

That leaves the rest of us with three options:

1) create/relocate to another group,
2) ignore the trolls and attempt to maintain our group within the midst of their "controlled chaos,"
3) raise the cash for a hit man via Go Fund Me, and have them removed for good.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:30:01 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:02:55 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On 2022-11-13 2:27 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:23:17 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:21:44 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 4:19:21 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > >>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:32:31 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
> > >>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 1:19:21 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:59:39 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
> > >>>>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 AM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:51 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
> > >>>>>>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 1:09:19 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> But they, while their companions slept,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Mack.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Please see 8) in our Guidelines, below:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> AAPC OFFICIAL GUIDELINES & FAQS
> > >>>>>>>>> Please feel free to kill file me, but your group is too undisciplined
> > >>>>>>>>> to have rules. What percentage of the group's posts are flames? This
> > >>>>>>>>> is why I haven't been here too much. You need to crack down on
> > >>>>>>>>> trouble makers.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Unfortunately, you are choosing to make yourself one of the troublemakers.
> > >>>>>>> Then you will miss what I have to offer, won't you?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Unfortunately, one cannot miss posts. One can only block them after the fact.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I mentioned to another group that I post what makes me feel good. I
> > >>>>>>> avoid flaming, and that is to say you can take it or leave it.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> This is a *discussion* group. If you want to post poetry by well known authors, you should do so at rec.arts.poems. That is what that group was created for.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> If you continue to post such poetry here without comments, you *are* flaming the group -- and shall be treated like a troll for doing so.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Your choice.
> > >>>>> How many posts in this group get 29 replies? Granted, a few of the
> > >>>>> posts are mine.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You will miss the train because you are arguing with the tricket
> > >>>>> master (for this thread). Open your eyes, ears and most of all your
> > >>>>> mind.
> > >>>> Well put.
> > >>> What's "well put,
> > >> Mack's post.
> > >
> > > Mack's whacked. What's a "tricket" and how does one master it?
> >
> >
> > If you find a word you don't understand, Michael, try to read it in
> > context.
> >
> > In this case, he's using using a metaphor: comparing your overlooking
> > the poem to argue with him, to missing a train because you were arguing
> > with the *tricket* master.
> >
> > Now use context. What do you need to do when you board a train? Why, buy
> > a "ticket". And from whom do you purchase the ticket? Why from the
> > "ticket-master."
> >
> > Had you been able to do that, you would have realised that "tricket" was
> > just a typo for "ticket." Not being able to read in context, you got
> > confused and couldn't understand the sentence due to a simple typo,
> > something you've done repeatedly in the past.
> >
> > I hope this advice helps you avoid similar goofs in the future.
> The only "goof" in question (since I'm not ignoring you) would be Mack's spelling error.
>
> And, since Mack is, IMHO, a troll,

Says Michael Pendragon, the biggest troll on the newsgroup.

HTH and HAND.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:05:10 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:43:52 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> > > > > > > > > > <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> > > > > > > > > >>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> > > > > > > > > >>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> > > > > > > > > >>> But they, while their companions slept,
> > > > > > > > > >>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> > > > > > > > > > (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> > > > > > > > > > poem.
> > > > > > > > > Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> > > > > > > > > In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
> > > > > > > > > with every poem or quotation you post.
> > > > > > > > I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
> > > > > > > > is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
> > > > > > > > is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
> > > > > > > > readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
> > > > > > > I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
> > > > > > > intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
> > > > > > > theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
> > > > > > I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
> > > > > > and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
> > > > > > FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
> > > > > > think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
> > > > > > you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
> > > > > Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
> > > > The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
> > > > it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
> > > > it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.
> > > I disagree.
> > >
> > > I think that most of us are naturally courteous, and that we prefer civil discussions to flame wars.
> > >
> > > When dealing with trolls (and we are dealing with trolls), we need to make a concerted effort to maintain courtesy amongst ourselves, and to strive for some semblance of structure amidst the chaos trolls create.
> > >
> > > It is at such times that Guidelines become essential. If we can adhere to the Guidelines in spite of the trolls, they become nothing more than an annoyance -- that can be reported, blocked, and ignored. AAPC continues to function as a forum in which poets can post original poetry and discuss one another's work *in spite of the trolls.*
> > >
> > > I plan on remaining courteous to others (trolls excepted), and don't care how silly it makes me appear.
> > If you’re trying to disagree with me, you’re not doing it very well.
> > Of course most of us are naturally courteous, and prefer civility.
> > My comment concerns our actions in light of others incivility.
> >
> > The structure you seek is in the maintenance of, and focus on
> > interpersonal relationships, like yours and mine, that demonstrate
> > their value on this platform, in this type of written communication.
> >
> > Calling people trolls is an ineffective method of influencing behavior.
> > People will change their behavior when they hurt themselves, or when
> > you demonstrate a better, more effective way of communicating.
> You're assuming that we are dealing with people.
>
> At this point, I no longer believe that "Team Donkey" (a.k.a., George Dance, Will Donkey, General Stink, and Jordy's Pervy Uncle) has any desire to have AAPC function as intended. George Dance wants to use it as an ad for his blog; Will Donkey wants to use it as his personal message board (and general self-aggrandizement), and the General and Uncle Isaac just want to slurp the Donkey's ego.
>
> I don't expect any of them to change their behavior -- regardless of what we do.
>
> They are here to stay, and they will continue to disrupt the group, incite flame wars, and make general nuisances of themselves.
>
> That leaves the rest of us with three options:
>
> 1) create/relocate to another group,
> 2) ignore the trolls and attempt to maintain our group within the midst of their "controlled chaos,"
> 3) raise the cash for a hit man via Go Fund Me, and have them removed for good.

My assumption is that I’m dealing with you,
and that others might read my comments.
I’ve chosen to mark hundreds of threads as
spam, because I’ve determined that my ego
is much bigger than everyone else’s in the
group combined. My time is more valuable.

Will Dockery wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:30:01 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:02:55 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> > On 2022-11-13 2:27 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:23:17 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > >> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:21:44 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >>> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:17:22 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > >>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 4:19:21 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> > >>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:32:31 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
>> > >>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 1:19:21 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:59:39 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
>> > >>>>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 AM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:51 -0800 (PST), Michael Pendragon
>> > >>>>>>>>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 1:09:19 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> But they, while their companions slept,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Were toiling upward in the night."
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Mack.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Please see 8) in our Guidelines, below:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> AAPC OFFICIAL GUIDELINES & FAQS
>> > >>>>>>>>> Please feel free to kill file me, but your group is too undisciplined
>> > >>>>>>>>> to have rules. What percentage of the group's posts are flames? This
>> > >>>>>>>>> is why I haven't been here too much. You need to crack down on
>> > >>>>>>>>> trouble makers.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> Unfortunately, you are choosing to make yourself one of the troublemakers.
>> > >>>>>>> Then you will miss what I have to offer, won't you?
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Unfortunately, one cannot miss posts. One can only block them after the fact.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> I mentioned to another group that I post what makes me feel good. I
>> > >>>>>>> avoid flaming, and that is to say you can take it or leave it.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> This is a *discussion* group. If you want to post poetry by well known authors, you should do so at rec.arts.poems. That is what that group was created for.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> If you continue to post such poetry here without comments, you *are* flaming the group -- and shall be treated like a troll for doing so.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Your choice.
>> > >>>>> How many posts in this group get 29 replies? Granted, a few of the
>> > >>>>> posts are mine.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> You will miss the train because you are arguing with the tricket
>> > >>>>> master (for this thread). Open your eyes, ears and most of all your
>> > >>>>> mind.
>> > >>>> Well put.
>> > >>> What's "well put,
>> > >> Mack's post.
>> > >
>> > > Mack's whacked. What's a "tricket" and how does one master it?
>> >
>> >
>> > If you find a word you don't understand, Michael, try to read it in
>> > context.
>> >
>> > In this case, he's using using a metaphor: comparing your overlooking
>> > the poem to argue with him, to missing a train because you were arguing
>> > with the *tricket* master.
>> >
>> > Now use context. What do you need to do when you board a train? Why, buy
>> > a "ticket". And from whom do you purchase the ticket? Why from the
>> > "ticket-master."
>> >
>> > Had you been able to do that, you would have realised that "tricket" was
>> > just a typo for "ticket." Not being able to read in context, you got
>> > confused and couldn't understand the sentence due to a simple typo,
>> > something you've done repeatedly in the past.
>> >
>> > I hope this advice helps you avoid similar goofs in the future.
>> The only "goof" in question (since I'm not ignoring you) would be Mack's spelling error.
>>
>> And, since Mack is, IMHO, a troll,

> Says Michael Pendragon, the biggest troll on the newsgroup.

> HTH and HAND.

Only Dink is possibly a bigger troll...

NancyGene wrote:

>

> He hasn't acclimated well to a poetry environment.

In your opinion, I think Mack is doing fine.

HTH and HAND.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:38:35 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> NancyGene wrote:
>
> >
>
> > He hasn't acclimated well to a poetry environment.
> In your opinion, I think Mack is doing fine.

Welcome to Team Donkey, Mack!

You're a match made in Heaven.

On 2022-11-15 12:13 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:38:35 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> NancyGene wrote:
>>
>>> He hasn't acclimated well to a poetry environment.
>> In your opinion, I think Mack is doing fine.
>
> Welcome to Team Donkey, Mack!
>

Don't be so dishonest, Michael. Your Team Monkey has been calling Mack a
"plant" for "Team Donkey" since the first time he showed up here.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:44:58 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-15 12:13 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:38:35 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> NancyGene wrote:
> >>
> >>> He hasn't acclimated well to a poetry environment.
> >> In your opinion, I think Mack is doing fine.
> >
> > Welcome to Team Donkey, Mack!
> >
> Don't be so dishonest, Michael. Your Team Monkey has been calling Mack a
> "plant" for "Team Donkey" since the first time he showed up here.

I never said that Mack wasn't suspected of being a plant, George.

I merely noted which "team" he has now *officially* been assigned to.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:44:58 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-11-15 12:13 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:38:35 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> NancyGene wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> He hasn't acclimated well to a poetry environment.
>> >> In your opinion, I think Mack is doing fine.
>> >
>> > Welcome to Team Donkey, Mack!
>> >
>> Don't be so dishonest, Michael. Your Team Monkey has been calling Mack a
>> "plant" for "Team Donkey" since the first time he showed up here.

> I never said that Mack wasn't suspected of being a plant, George.

Which, as far as I know, bullshit.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:56:52 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:44:58 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On 2022-11-15 12:13 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:38:35 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> NancyGene wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> He hasn't acclimated well to a poetry environment.
> > >> In your opinion, I think Mack is doing fine.
> > >
> > > Welcome to Team Donkey, Mack!
> > >
> > Don't be so dishonest, Michael. Your Team Monkey has been calling Mack a
> > "plant" for "Team Donkey" since the first time he showed up here.
> I never said that Mack wasn't suspected of being a plant, George.
>
> I merely noted which "team" he has now *officially* been assigned to.

George Plant was a member of the IRA, executed by the Irish
government in 1942. Therefore, Mack is not George Plant, Mike.
Mike Plant circumnavigated the globe all by himself on a sailboat.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 2:09:22 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:56:52 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:44:58 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > On 2022-11-15 12:13 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:38:35 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >> NancyGene wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> He hasn't acclimated well to a poetry environment.
> > > >> In your opinion, I think Mack is doing fine.
> > > >
> > > > Welcome to Team Donkey, Mack!
> > > >
> > > Don't be so dishonest, Michael. Your Team Monkey has been calling Mack a
> > > "plant" for "Team Donkey" since the first time he showed up here.
> > I never said that Mack wasn't suspected of being a plant, George.
> >
> > I merely noted which "team" he has now *officially* been assigned to.
> George Plant was a member of the IRA, executed by the Irish
> government in 1942. Therefore, Mack is not George Plant, Mike.
> Mike Plant circumnavigated the globe all by himself on a sailboat.

Robert Plant?
https://youtu.be/y8OtzJtp-EM

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 2:12:56 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 2:09:22 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:56:52 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:44:58 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > On 2022-11-15 12:13 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:38:35 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > >> NancyGene wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> He hasn't acclimated well to a poetry environment.
> > > > >> In your opinion, I think Mack is doing fine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Welcome to Team Donkey, Mack!
> > > > >
> > > > Don't be so dishonest, Michael. Your Team Monkey has been calling Mack a
> > > > "plant" for "Team Donkey" since the first time he showed up here.
> > > I never said that Mack wasn't suspected of being a plant, George.
> > >
> > > I merely noted which "team" he has now *officially* been assigned to.
> > George Plant was a member of the IRA, executed by the Irish
> > government in 1942. Therefore, Mack is not George Plant, Mike.
> > Mike Plant circumnavigated the globe all by himself on a sailboat.
> Robert Plant?
> https://youtu.be/y8OtzJtp-EM

Sticky Willy Plant
https://www.wildsociety.org/plant-stories-sticky-willy/

On 2022-11-15 11:05 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:43:52 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
>>>>>>>>>> <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
>>>>>>>>>>>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
>>>>>>>>>>>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
>>>>>>>>>>>> But they, while their companions slept,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Were toiling upward in the night."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
>>>>>>>>>> (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
>>>>>>>>>> poem.
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
>>>>>>>>> In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
>>>>>>>>> with every poem or quotation you post.
>>>>>>>> I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
>>>>>>>> is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
>>>>>>>> is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
>>>>>>>> readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
>>>>>>> I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
>>>>>>> intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
>>>>>>> theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
>>>>>> I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
>>>>>> and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
>>>>>> FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
>>>>>> think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
>>>>>> you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
>>>>> Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
>>>> The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
>>>> it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
>>>> it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.
>>> I disagree.
>>>
>>> I think that most of us are naturally courteous, and that we prefer civil discussions to flame wars.
>>>
>>> When dealing with trolls (and we are dealing with trolls), we need to make a concerted effort to maintain courtesy amongst ourselves, and to strive for some semblance of structure amidst the chaos trolls create.
>>>
>>> It is at such times that Guidelines become essential. If we can adhere to the Guidelines in spite of the trolls, they become nothing more than an annoyance -- that can be reported, blocked, and ignored. AAPC continues to function as a forum in which poets can post original poetry and discuss one another's work *in spite of the trolls.*
>>>
>>> I plan on remaining courteous to others (trolls excepted), and don't care how silly it makes me appear.
>> If you’re trying to disagree with me, you’re not doing it very well.
>> Of course most of us are naturally courteous, and prefer civility.
>> My comment concerns our actions in light of others incivility.
>>
>> The structure you seek is in the maintenance of, and focus on
>> interpersonal relationships, like yours and mine, that demonstrate
>> their value on this platform, in this type of written communication.
>>
>> Calling people trolls is an ineffective method of influencing behavior.
>> People will change their behavior when they hurt themselves, or when
>> you demonstrate a better, more effective way of communicating.
>
> You're assuming that we are dealing with people.
>
> At this point, I no longer believe that "Team Donkey" (a.k.a., George Dance, Will Donkey, General Stink, and Jordy's Pervy Uncle) has any desire to have AAPC function as intended. George Dance wants to use it as an ad for his blog; Will Donkey wants to use it as his personal message board (and general self-aggrandizement), and the General and Uncle Isaac just want to slurp the Donkey's ego.
>

You're correct that I've given up trying to have AAPC function, Michael.
I gave up trying that when you and Team Monkey (NancyGene, Jim
Senetto, Ash Wurthing, and ME) drove out all the people I'd invited
here. Now we're just playing your troll game.

Of course, you had to add in some lies about what we're "here for."
Remember that Mack came here with a question, and that it was Team
Donkey (Will and I) who answered it for him.

> I don't expect any of them to change their behavior -- regardless of what we do.

The one thing Team Monkey won't do, of course, is to stop trolling and
lying about "Team Donkey".

> They are here to stay, and they will continue to disrupt the group, incite flame wars, and make general nuisances of themselves.
>

As Mack can see, you're the one inciting yet another flame war by
trolling the rival team.

> That leaves the rest of us with three options:
>
> 1) create/relocate to another group,
> 2) ignore the trolls and attempt to maintain our group within the midst of their "controlled chaos,"
> 3) raise the cash for a hit man via Go Fund Me, and have them removed for good.

Your option (1), leaving aapc -- sounds like the best option, given that
my preference -- that you simply stop trolling everyone who doesn't
"comply" with Team Monkey's demands -- is one you're incapable of.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 2:35:20 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-15 11:05 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:43:52 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> >>>>>>>>>> <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But they, while their companions slept,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> >>>>>>>>>> (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> >>>>>>>>>> poem.
> >>>>>>>>> Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> >>>>>>>>> In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
> >>>>>>>>> with every poem or quotation you post.
> >>>>>>>> I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
> >>>>>>>> is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
> >>>>>>>> is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
> >>>>>>>> readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
> >>>>>>> I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
> >>>>>>> intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
> >>>>>>> theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
> >>>>>> I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
> >>>>>> and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
> >>>>>> FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
> >>>>>> think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
> >>>>>> you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
> >>>>> Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
> >>>> The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
> >>>> it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
> >>>> it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.
> >>> I disagree.
> >>>
> >>> I think that most of us are naturally courteous, and that we prefer civil discussions to flame wars.
> >>>
> >>> When dealing with trolls (and we are dealing with trolls), we need to make a concerted effort to maintain courtesy amongst ourselves, and to strive for some semblance of structure amidst the chaos trolls create.
> >>>
> >>> It is at such times that Guidelines become essential. If we can adhere to the Guidelines in spite of the trolls, they become nothing more than an annoyance -- that can be reported, blocked, and ignored. AAPC continues to function as a forum in which poets can post original poetry and discuss one another's work *in spite of the trolls.*
> >>>
> >>> I plan on remaining courteous to others (trolls excepted), and don't care how silly it makes me appear.
> >> If you’re trying to disagree with me, you’re not doing it very well.
> >> Of course most of us are naturally courteous, and prefer civility.
> >> My comment concerns our actions in light of others incivility.
> >>
> >> The structure you seek is in the maintenance of, and focus on
> >> interpersonal relationships, like yours and mine, that demonstrate
> >> their value on this platform, in this type of written communication.
> >>
> >> Calling people trolls is an ineffective method of influencing behavior..
> >> People will change their behavior when they hurt themselves, or when
> >> you demonstrate a better, more effective way of communicating.
> >
> > You're assuming that we are dealing with people.
> >
> > At this point, I no longer believe that "Team Donkey" (a.k.a., George Dance, Will Donkey, General Stink, and Jordy's Pervy Uncle) has any desire to have AAPC function as intended. George Dance wants to use it as an ad for his blog; Will Donkey wants to use it as his personal message board (and general self-aggrandizement), and the General and Uncle Isaac just want to slurp the Donkey's ego.
> >
> You're correct that I've given up trying to have AAPC function, Michael.
> I gave up trying that when you and Team Monkey (NancyGene, Jim
> Senetto, Ash Wurthing, and ME) drove out all the people I'd invited
> here. Now we're just playing your troll game.

1) No one drove out Karen. She still joins in a conversation now and then (and we all wish she would do so more often).
2) I don't recall who else you invited... but then again, I don't recall any recent members who made any impression, and/or are missed.

If you want AAPC to function properly, you need to use your influence with Team Donkey to get them to stop their flaming and start following the GLs.

> Of course, you had to add in some lies about what we're "here for."

Your actions make your agenda crystal clear.

> Remember that Mack came here with a question, and that it was Team
> Donkey (Will and I) who answered it for him.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 2:35:20 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-15 11:05 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:43:52 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 8:38:57 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:46:37 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:19:18 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:26:11 PM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:07:11 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 2022-11-12 1:12 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:37:41 -0500, "George J. Dance"
> >>>>>>>>>> <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-11-10 1:09 p.m., Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "The Ladder of St. Augustine"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "The heights by great men reached and kept
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Were not attained by sudden flight,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But they, while their companions slept,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Were toiling upward in the night."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Looks like a Longfellow poem I haven't read, and one worth reading.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'll go look for it, but I'd ask you to give me a link next time.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That's not a "GL" either, just a suggestion.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> It was a verse that struck me and has stayed with me for many decades
> >>>>>>>>>> (since the 1980s). Yes, I should have posted a link to the entire
> >>>>>>>>>> poem.
> >>>>>>>>> Sorry to intervene, Mack, but Michael is not asking you to post links.
> >>>>>>>>> In his view, links are bad, as they "lure" people away from the group.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> He's been asking (and now demanding) that you post "original commentary"
> >>>>>>>>> with every poem or quotation you post.
> >>>>>>>> I think Michael took an unnecessarily harsh tack, and that what he was trying to convey
> >>>>>>>> is that the preferred method of interpersonal exchange here in this text based medium
> >>>>>>>> is text. I don’t think anybody particularly objects to links except that they don’t afford
> >>>>>>>> readers the opportunity to do what they come here to do, which is obviously to read.
> >>>>>>> I feel that I have been patient with Mack long enough.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You may have forgotten his behavior when I asked him why one should presuppose a split brain existed, when the so-called "evidence" for it (numinous experiences) still occurs today as a result of the separation of conscious and unconscious minds. Here's how Mack responded:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "You haven't read the book, and that says volumes about your lack of
> >>>>>>> intellect. Your questions and criticisms have no relevance to Jaynes'
> >>>>>>> theory. Good bye. I am not going to argue with a dining room table."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I excused his unwarranted tirade at the time... however, when taken in conjunction with his recent announcement that he shall not follow any Guidelines, I can only believe him to be another loony sock puppet that George and his Donkey invited from the Beatles or the Dylan group.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Mack is now on my troll-list, and shall be treated like his fellow trolls.
> >>>>>> I’m not concerned with your feelings, Michael. You may feel that you have been patient,
> >>>>>> and by your standards maybe you have been, but you’re really not a very patient person.
> >>>>>> FYI, I don’t follow the guidelines either. I just don’t make a big deal about it. In fact, I don’t
> >>>>>> think I’ve ever read your guidelines or FAQ all the way through, but I appreciate the effort
> >>>>>> you put into them. They simply don’t apply to me. No offense intended. Keep up the great work.
> >>>>> Since the GLs ask only for common courtesy (netiquette), like most of us you follow them without trying.
> >>>> The nature of common courtesy is that as soon as you demand
> >>>> it of others, especially in an unmoderated environment like this,
> >>>> it either disappears from you, or makes you look silly for asking.
> >>> I disagree.
> >>>
> >>> I think that most of us are naturally courteous, and that we prefer civil discussions to flame wars.
> >>>
> >>> When dealing with trolls (and we are dealing with trolls), we need to make a concerted effort to maintain courtesy amongst ourselves, and to strive for some semblance of structure amidst the chaos trolls create.
> >>>
> >>> It is at such times that Guidelines become essential. If we can adhere to the Guidelines in spite of the trolls, they become nothing more than an annoyance -- that can be reported, blocked, and ignored. AAPC continues to function as a forum in which poets can post original poetry and discuss one another's work *in spite of the trolls.*
> >>>
> >>> I plan on remaining courteous to others (trolls excepted), and don't care how silly it makes me appear.
> >> If you’re trying to disagree with me, you’re not doing it very well.
> >> Of course most of us are naturally courteous, and prefer civility.
> >> My comment concerns our actions in light of others incivility.
> >>
> >> The structure you seek is in the maintenance of, and focus on
> >> interpersonal relationships, like yours and mine, that demonstrate
> >> their value on this platform, in this type of written communication.
> >>
> >> Calling people trolls is an ineffective method of influencing behavior..
> >> People will change their behavior when they hurt themselves, or when
> >> you demonstrate a better, more effective way of communicating.
> >
> > You're assuming that we are dealing with people.
> >
> > At this point, I no longer believe that "Team Donkey" (a.k.a., George Dance, Will Donkey, General Stink, and Jordy's Pervy Uncle) has any desire to have AAPC function as intended. George Dance wants to use it as an ad for his blog; Will Donkey wants to use it as his personal message board (and general self-aggrandizement), and the General and Uncle Isaac just want to slurp the Donkey's ego.
> >
> You're correct that I've given up trying to have AAPC function, Michael.
> I gave up trying that when you and Team Monkey (NancyGene, Jim
> Senetto, Ash Wurthing, and ME) drove out all the people I'd invited
> here. Now we're just playing your troll game.
>
> Of course, you had to add in some lies about what we're "here for."
> Remember that Mack came here with a question, and that it was Team
> Donkey (Will and I) who answered it for him.
> > I don't expect any of them to change their behavior -- regardless of what we do.
> The one thing Team Monkey won't do, of course, is to stop trolling and
> lying about "Team Donkey".
> > They are here to stay, and they will continue to disrupt the group, incite flame wars, and make general nuisances of themselves.
> >
> As Mack can see, you're the one inciting yet another flame war by
> trolling the rival team.
> > That leaves the rest of us with three options:
> >
> > 1) create/relocate to another group,
> > 2) ignore the trolls and attempt to maintain our group within the midst of their "controlled chaos,"
> > 3) raise the cash for a hit man via Go Fund Me, and have them removed for good.
> Your option (1), leaving aapc -- sounds like the best option, given that
> my preference -- that you simply stop trolling everyone who doesn't
> "comply" with Team Monkey's demands -- is one you're incapable of.