On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 18:27:31 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>news:ih6scgh350t28mq13a13l4jvjb1o5llmgq@4ax.com:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 18:18:52 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 1:49:29 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>>>Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>> Alan Baker <notony...@no.no.no.no> wrote in
>>>> news:saim7e$rt3$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>> > On 2021-06-18 9:59 a.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >> "edstas...@gmail.com" <edstas...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> >> news:4c5034ad-bc9b-4c2c...@googlegroups.com:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>> Alan Baker
>>>> >>>>> Lynn McGuire
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Texas is now the 21st Constitutional Carry State.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Let the carnage commence.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> We’ve been hearing the same thing ever since Florida
>>>> >>> introduce “shall issue” concealed carry back in 1987, yet
>>>> >>> the U.S. murder rate continues to go down despite over 19
>>>> >>> million Americans now carrying a concealed handgun.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Except in places like New York City, where Democrats are in
>>>> >> charge, and wipe their ass with the Contitution, especially
>>>> >> the 2nd Amendment.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> There's shootings are up 70% since the pandemic started.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Not that you'll ever offer proof of that...
>>>> >
>>>> It's in the news every day. And you have *never* admitted when
>>>> proof has been offered. You *always* lie, literally *every*
>>>> *single* *time*.
>>>>
>>>> Go play your insane, childish games with somebody as stupid as
>>>> you are, retard. Your stance advocating for more violent crime
>>>> makes you, like Quaddie, literally a subhuman animal who
>>>> should be put down as a matter of public safety.
>>>
>>>Much as I hold my nose to support Terry, the stats are there.
>>>
>>>Shootings in NYC
>>>
>>>May 2018: 77
>>>May 2019: 61
>>>May 2020: 100
>>>May 2021: 173
>>>
>>>Sources:
>>>
>>>https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0604b/city-achieves-new-reco
>>>rd-low-may-murder-shooting-incident-categories#/0
>>>
>>>https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/pr0603/nypd-citywide-crime-st
>>>atistics-may-2021
>>
>> But does this correlate to new Gun Laws?
>>
>> Or is it possible that /something else/ is causing this?
>>
>> Cabin fever from the pandemic, perhaps?
>
>No, it correlates to the stress of the pandemic feeding the general
>lawlessness of the BLM and Antifa insurgents, who are openly
>supported and protected by the Demorats who run NYC. While the
>latter are not, technically speaking, new gun laws (why on earth
>would you feel the need to capitalize that? do you literally
>worhsip unconstitutional, murderous gun laws?), they are the same
>thing, brought on by the same fascist ideology, which *must* break
>down social order and the rule of law before they can seize power.

Violent as the Anarchists, currently trying (and succeeding, sad to
say) in disguising themselves as "Antifa" may be, they are /not/
insurgents. Nor are the BLM protestors. Who, BTW, have
/Constitutional/ right to assemble.

Neither of /those/ groups stormed the Capitol on 1/6/21 to overthrow
the government by preventing the certification of the election.

But just keep believing the two are comparable. The Anarchists, at
least, could /use/ some Law Enforcement attention.

Oh, I sometimes Capitalize for Emphasis. Worship has nothing to do
with it.

>If you remove the name, the recent history of the left and the
>history of the rise of power of the Nazi party in Germany in the
>20s is identical. Largely, I expect, because they're using that
>history as a textbook.

Nice projection.

It is Trump and the Republican base, however, who are engaged in
insurrection.

But that's all right. The further their legislatures move to the
Right, the more voters they will alienate.

And not just "them". A Republican operative got the voting info under
the FOIA (or local equivalent) from the county whose ballots are
currently being checked for watermarks and bamboo fibers in Arizona
and found that /Biden won because a lot of Republicans voted for him/.
They were identified as Republicans because, other than Biden, they
voted a straight Republican ticket. So, there may be a lot of
anti-RINO Republicans out there, who can say?

And, since this guy's report has been published, it can be used to
check the results of the "audit", if results are ever produced.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 14:18:42 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
wrote:

>On 2021 Jun 19, J. Clarke wrote
>(in article<6a9scgd8qtfq244pvcfdacko5g2bf285d8@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 09:36:55 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob<kevrob@my-deja.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 12:16:03 PM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> > > On Friday, 18 June 2021 at 15:31:05 UTC+1, Alan Baker wrote:
>> >
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> > > > ...and then the trigger-happy police show up.
>> > > Kind of like this story.
>> > >
>> > > <https://notalwaysright.com/loyalty-thy-name-is-dog/237505/>
>> > >
>> > > Local police collect a student from school and take him
>> > > to his home. It turns out that a burglar got chased up a
>> > > tree in the yard by the family dog - on his way /out/ of
>> > > the house, so, good dog, but...
>> > >
>> > > The neighbour has called the police, and one officer goes
>> > > to arrest the guy in the tree. The dog isn't on the same
>> > > page and he chases the officer up the tree.
>> > >
>> > > The student is brought in just in time to prevent another
>> > > police officer from shooting his dog.
>> > >
>> > > Tagged "Funny".
>> >
>> > Wow. In a larger town, the cops would have shot the dog.
>>
>> And if they were feds they'd have shot the kid too.
>
>only if the kid was black.

The kid at Ruby Ridge was white.

Your Federal Marshalls at work!

Interestingly, there appears to be a Federal Judge who is going to try
some of them for contempt because they will not state whether they
have been vaccinated or not. The fun continues!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 18:38:32 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote in
>news:ij6r85FervdU1@mid.individual.net:
>
>> We may live to see the end of this thread.
>
>I suspect it would be possible to work out a mathematical proof that
>that is, in fact, impossible.

Hey, even "The Thread That Would Not Die", AKA "Jesus Hold the Atoms
Together", eventually ended.

Took a while, though.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:m6sucgh55qrhan6cgd0b973puvik65961l@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 18:30:16 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>news:d16scgl9js7as1hhe1rahubhkf0d7j0oei@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 10:15:34 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>>> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>news:qnvmcghu36v1eicpcfhjbv5lv0hji2rbao@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>>>> And now it is being investigated as a criminal organization,
>>>>> and gives off all the classic signs of an organization run
>>>>> for the benefit of the leaders.
>>>>>
>>>>Or so claims the political appointee with a very overt agenda
>>>>in New York State. If he claimed there are seven days in the
>>>>week, I'd toss all my calandars under the assumption they're
>>>>liberal propaganda.
>>>
>>> It is my impression that a certain Bankruptcy Court judge in
>>> Texas reached much the same conclusion when the NRA tried to
>>> declare bankruptcy there to hide assets from the guy in New
>>> York.
>>
>>When the government ignores the law, their intended victims tend
>>to do the same, yes.
>
> The government appears to be /enforcing/ the law.

Only to the deluded sheep like yourself, "appears" being the key
word there. The laws you refer to are blatantly unconstitutional,
and more and more overtly so. Ergo, the act of passing them is
ignoring the highest law of the land, the Constitution.

> But we shall
> see what we shall see when all the NRA handwavium stops and they
> have to actually respond to the alleged allegations.
>
>>> BTW, I think the NRA /should/ relocate to Texas. It would be a
>>> much better fit for them than New York.
>>
>>Texas is a much better for for living a decent life, certainly.
>>Other than the heat, of course.
>
> Unless the Electric Company decides to adjust your thermostat
> for you. Then you broil.

Texas has only itself to blame for its independent electrical grid.
But to many, and the number is growing, literally living in Hell
would be preferabe to New York.
>
>>> Well, provided some part of it survives the current storm,
>>> anyway.
>>
>>Which storm is that? The complete, utter lack of any increase in
>>violent crime? That storm? I doubt they're worried.
>
> Their pending impoverishment by New York State, of course.
> Insurance fraud is a serious offense. If that actually happened,
> of course.

Hold your breath on that. Blue is your color.
>
> And the imprisonment of their leader for looting the tresury to
> support his lifestyle. Since even Oliver North, who lied to
> Congress, found it so blatant that he called him on it.

All based on "news" reports by organizations that don't even
pretend to not be propaganda outlets, relaying the claims of
someone who has an admitted political agenda. And you gobble it
down.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:khsucg1eolej5fk4pjvt3l77ac3sv73il8@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 18:22:33 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>news:md6scg5h7ab8j6e22k7hr042cie2dgcdob@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 09:57:23 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>>> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Jonathan <LSA@UMich.edu> wrote in
>>>>news:np-dnfBIVeorXlb9nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/17/2021 12:55 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 17:42:17 -0400, Jonathan
>>>>>> <LSA@UMich.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Second Amendment is written in stone and it
>>>>>>> gives us the right to bear arms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is /not/ "written in stone". Prohibition was reversed,
>>>>>> and so could this one be, at least in theory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And it might be, not reversed, but amended in turn, to
>>>>>> "clarify" it, if that appears to be needed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "...shall not be infringed" isn't ambiguous in the
>>>>> slightest.
>>>>>
>>>>Neither the Supreme Court's authority to interpret the
>>>>Constitution and its amendments.
>>>>
>>>>At this point, dumbass, Alan Baker is making you look stupid.
>>>
>>> Sadly, that is a low bar.
>>
>>So you're claiming Baker is very smart, thus meaning that
>>looking stupider than him is easy? That *is* what you're
>>implying here.
>
> Yes, I do appear to have expressed my thought badly.

You abuse the word "thought." That is something you are not
capable of doing.
>
> Imagine the level of your target's stupidity.
>
> Add a miniscule amount to it.
>
> /That/ is the low bar I was referring to.

Only if the level of stupidity is low to begin with. Otherwise,
literally every world record set is a "low bar." Moron.
>
> Exceeding it is, I suggest, not much of an achievement.
>
> <snippo botspeak>

You're in the running, too.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:8vsucgh0hfthllgf5a6ci2nc3eh36pcaml@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 18:27:31 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>news:ih6scgh350t28mq13a13l4jvjb1o5llmgq@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 18:18:52 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 1:49:29 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>>>>Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>> Alan Baker <notony...@no.no.no.no> wrote in
>>>>> news:saim7e$rt3$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>> > On 2021-06-18 9:59 a.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >> "edstas...@gmail.com" <edstas...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> >> news:4c5034ad-bc9b-4c2c...@googlegroups.com:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>>> Alan Baker
>>>>> >>>>> Lynn McGuire
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Texas is now the 21st Constitutional Carry State.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Let the carnage commence.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> We�ve been hearing the same thing ever since Florida
>>>>> >>> introduce �shall issue� concealed carry back in 1987,
>>>>> >>> yet the U.S. murder rate continues to go down despite
>>>>> >>> over 19 million Americans now carrying a concealed
>>>>> >>> handgun.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Except in places like New York City, where Democrats are
>>>>> >> in charge, and wipe their ass with the Contitution,
>>>>> >> especially the 2nd Amendment.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> There's shootings are up 70% since the pandemic started.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Not that you'll ever offer proof of that...
>>>>> >
>>>>> It's in the news every day. And you have *never* admitted
>>>>> when proof has been offered. You *always* lie, literally
>>>>> *every* *single* *time*.
>>>>>
>>>>> Go play your insane, childish games with somebody as stupid
>>>>> as you are, retard. Your stance advocating for more violent
>>>>> crime makes you, like Quaddie, literally a subhuman animal
>>>>> who should be put down as a matter of public safety.
>>>>
>>>>Much as I hold my nose to support Terry, the stats are there.
>>>>
>>>>Shootings in NYC
>>>>
>>>>May 2018: 77
>>>>May 2019: 61
>>>>May 2020: 100
>>>>May 2021: 173
>>>>
>>>>Sources:
>>>>
>>>>https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0604b/city-achieves-new-re
>>>>co rd-low-may-murder-shooting-incident-categories#/0
>>>>
>>>>https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/pr0603/nypd-citywide-crime-
>>>>st atistics-may-2021
>>>
>>> But does this correlate to new Gun Laws?
>>>
>>> Or is it possible that /something else/ is causing this?
>>>
>>> Cabin fever from the pandemic, perhaps?
>>
>>No, it correlates to the stress of the pandemic feeding the
>>general lawlessness of the BLM and Antifa insurgents, who are
>>openly supported and protected by the Demorats who run NYC.
>>While the latter are not, technically speaking, new gun laws
>>(why on earth would you feel the need to capitalize that? do you
>>literally worhsip unconstitutional, murderous gun laws?), they
>>are the same thing, brought on by the same fascist ideology,
>>which *must* break down social order and the rule of law before
>>they can seize power.
>
> Violent as the Anarchists, currently trying (and succeeding, sad
> to say) in disguising themselves as "Antifa" may be,

Antifa was organized, and always run, by violent insurgents.

> they are
> /not/ insurgents. Nor are the BLM protestors. Who, BTW, have
> /Constitutional/ right to assemble.

Only a liberal would consider organizing deliberate attacks on
government office with the specific goal of _burning them down_ to
be "peaceful protest." That is to say, only an active supporter of
the violent insurgency.
>
> Neither of /those/ groups stormed the Capitol on 1/6/21 to
> overthrow the government by preventing the certification of the
> election.

But they certainly have done so with many other government
buildings all over the country for the specific purpose of
destroying the ability of the police to enforce the law. They are
*literally* making war on the United States, which is the
constitutional definition of treason.
>
> But just keep believing the two are comparable. The Anarchists,
> at least, could /use/ some Law Enforcement attention.

They are not comparable. Antifa and BLM are insurgents making war
on the US. The capitol riot was just that - a riot. Not comprable
at all.
>
> Oh, I sometimes Capitalize for Emphasis. Worship has nothing to
> do with it.

Or you're an idiot.
>
>>If you remove the name, the recent history of the left and the
>>history of the rise of power of the Nazi party in Germany in the
>>20s is identical. Largely, I expect, because they're using that
>>history as a textbook.
>
> Nice projection.

Historical fact.
>
> It is Trump and the Republican base, however, who are engaged in
> insurrection.

Only in your diseased imagination.
>
> But that's all right. The further their legislatures move to the
> Right, the more voters they will alienate.

Next year's congressional elections will be interesting. Even
California is getting tired of of the left's incompetent
corruption.
>
> And not just "them". A Republican operative got the voting info
> under the FOIA (or local equivalent) from the county whose
> ballots are currently being checked for watermarks and bamboo
> fibers in Arizona and found that /Biden won because a lot of
> Republicans voted for him/. They were identified as Republicans
> because, other than Biden, they voted a straight Republican
> ticket. So, there may be a lot of anti-RINO Republicans out
> there, who can say?
>
> And, since this guy's report has been published, it can be used
> to check the results of the "audit", if results are ever
> produced.

And now we have Biden in the White House, and the left are being
even *more* overt in their coup plans. When the obscene tax hikes
hit the majority of the population, things will not be pretty. The
left is showing its true colors, and they're the colors of
fascists.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:5ptucg1t00tapmredk13jjmou2o1cib17u@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 18:38:32 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote in
>>news:ij6r85FervdU1@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> We may live to see the end of this thread.
>>
>>I suspect it would be possible to work out a mathematical proof
>>that that is, in fact, impossible.
>
> Hey, even "The Thread That Would Not Die", AKA "Jesus Hold the
> Atoms Together", eventually ended.
>
> Took a while, though.

The subject line may change, but retarded idiots who have no idea
what they're jibbering about calling each other names in the name of
gun control is a thread that's been ongoing since before I got here,
and will never, ever end.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:44:54 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:

> On 20/06/2021 06:59, Magewolf wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 23:38:51 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/06/2021 19:22, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 13:58:42 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
>>>> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 19/06/2021 04:55, Wolffan wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021 Jun 18, Quadibloc wrote (in
>>>>>> article<ac6cb5d8-8afc-4121-88a9-e9a0a25ebb46n@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-6, Alan Baker wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-17 2:18 p.m., edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If guns were the problem then the murder rate would be more or
>>>>>>>>> less the same across the country, instead of being concentrated
>>>>>>>>> in the same inner cities year after year and ought to be
>>>>>>>>> astronomically higher today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope. That doesn't follow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, it _does_ follow. Guns aren't "the problem". If peaceful
>>>>>>> law-abiding citizens owned guns in greater numbers, this would not
>>>>>>> greatly increase crime using guns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The principal cause of crime is, after all, criminals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The case for gun control is a bit more difficult to make.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gun control Will Not Bloody Work. It’s not just my opinion, it’s
>>>>>> demonstrable.
>>>>>>
>>>>> [SNIP]
>>>>> Worked perfectly well here in Oz.
>>>>
>>>> The same way my can of elephant repellant works in Connecticut.
>>>> Since I got my elephant repellant I haven't seen a single elepehant,
>>>> so that solved the elephant problem real good.
>>>>>
>>>>> Violent crimes committed with guns are down, with no increase in
>>>>> knife/brick/hand grenade usage.
>>>>
>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>
>>>>> Domestic violence using guns is down. (But, sadly, DV is on the
>>>>> increase, although some of the rozzers I know put some/a lot of that
>>>>> down to them taking it more seriously, and being *trained* in what
>>>>> to do, so it gets reported more often. And COVID-19.)
>>>>
>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>
>>>>> The suicide rate of farmers, in general, is down, and noticeably the
>>>>> number where a gun is used are down.
>>>>
>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>
>>>>> And we haven't had a three year-old kill a family member with an
>>>>> unsecured firearm in, oh, forever.
>>>>
>>>> So how many did you have per year before your gun laws?
>>>>
>>>>> Of course, Australians aren't barbarian morons who need a gun to
>>>>> compensate for their general uselessness. [OBSF - Wizards and
>>>>> Swords.]
>>>>
>>>> If they aren't barbarian morons then why can't they be trusted with
>>>> weapons?
>>>>
>>> Here's a general answer:
>>> <https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases/2018/october/tough-laws-prevent-
>> gun-deaths>
>>> - "“In Australia we went from 614 firearm deaths in 1990 to 274 in
>>> 2016".
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Gary B-)
>> Not being a US citizen I must assume that you are unaware that the US
>> also saw a huge drop in firearm deaths over the same period,while
>> drowning in guns.
>>
> Really? Data, please?
>
> Cheers,
> Gary B-)

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-
down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:42:00 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:

> On 19/06/2021 23:55, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 23:38:51 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
>> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/06/2021 19:22, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 13:58:42 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
>>>> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 19/06/2021 04:55, Wolffan wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021 Jun 18, Quadibloc wrote (in
>>>>>> article<ac6cb5d8-8afc-4121-88a9-e9a0a25ebb46n@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-6, Alan Baker wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-17 2:18 p.m., edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If guns were the problem then the murder rate would be more or
>>>>>>>>> less the same across the country, instead of being concentrated
>>>>>>>>> in the same inner cities year after year and ought to be
>>>>>>>>> astronomically higher today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope. That doesn't follow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, it _does_ follow. Guns aren't "the problem". If peaceful
>>>>>>> law-abiding citizens owned guns in greater numbers, this would not
>>>>>>> greatly increase crime using guns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The principal cause of crime is, after all, criminals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The case for gun control is a bit more difficult to make.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gun control Will Not Bloody Work. It’s not just my opinion, it’s
>>>>>> demonstrable.
>>>>>>
>>>>> [SNIP]
>>>>> Worked perfectly well here in Oz.
>>>>
>>>> The same way my can of elephant repellant works in Connecticut.
>>>> Since I got my elephant repellant I haven't seen a single elepehant,
>>>> so that solved the elephant problem real good.
>>>>>
>>>>> Violent crimes committed with guns are down, with no increase in
>>>>> knife/brick/hand grenade usage.
>>>>
>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>
>>>>> Domestic violence using guns is down. (But, sadly, DV is on the
>>>>> increase, although some of the rozzers I know put some/a lot of that
>>>>> down to them taking it more seriously, and being *trained* in what
>>>>> to do, so it gets reported more often. And COVID-19.)
>>>>
>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>
>>>>> The suicide rate of farmers, in general, is down, and noticeably the
>>>>> number where a gun is used are down.
>>>>
>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>
>>>>> And we haven't had a three year-old kill a family member with an
>>>>> unsecured firearm in, oh, forever.
>>>>
>>>> So how many did you have per year before your gun laws?
>>>>
>>>>> Of course, Australians aren't barbarian morons who need a gun to
>>>>> compensate for their general uselessness. [OBSF - Wizards and
>>>>> Swords.]
>>>>
>>>> If they aren't barbarian morons then why can't they be trusted with
>>>> weapons?
>>>>
>>> Here's a general answer:
>>> <https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases/2018/october/tough-laws-prevent-
gun-deaths>
>>> - "“In Australia we went from 614 firearm deaths in 1990 to 274 in
>>> 2016".
>>
>> In other words you went from nothing to nothing. You didn't have a
>> problem that needed to be fixed but you fixed it anyway.
>>
> That. Is . Just. Disgusting.
>
> And proof, if we needed any more, that in the USA, it is true that no
> lives matter.
>
> And although I rarely publicise it, this piece of trash is now in the
> permanent kill file.
>
> Cheers,
> Gary B-)

That is a drop of less than 400 people a year. More people die from
faulty ladders per year in the US than that and yet I do not see an
entire industry thriving on attacking the evil ladder companies and the
people who buy them. I wonder why?

On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 20:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Magewolf
<Magewolf@nc.rr.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:44:54 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>
>> On 20/06/2021 06:59, Magewolf wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 23:38:51 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/06/2021 19:22, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 13:58:42 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
>>>>> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19/06/2021 04:55, Wolffan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021 Jun 18, Quadibloc wrote (in
>>>>>>> article<ac6cb5d8-8afc-4121-88a9-e9a0a25ebb46n@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-6, Alan Baker wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-17 2:18 p.m., edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If guns were the problem then the murder rate would be more or
>>>>>>>>>> less the same across the country, instead of being concentrated
>>>>>>>>>> in the same inner cities year after year and ought to be
>>>>>>>>>> astronomically higher today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope. That doesn't follow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, it _does_ follow. Guns aren't "the problem". If peaceful
>>>>>>>> law-abiding citizens owned guns in greater numbers, this would not
>>>>>>>> greatly increase crime using guns.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The principal cause of crime is, after all, criminals.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The case for gun control is a bit more difficult to make.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gun control Will Not Bloody Work. It’s not just my opinion, it’s
>>>>>>> demonstrable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [SNIP]
>>>>>> Worked perfectly well here in Oz.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same way my can of elephant repellant works in Connecticut.
>>>>> Since I got my elephant repellant I haven't seen a single elepehant,
>>>>> so that solved the elephant problem real good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Violent crimes committed with guns are down, with no increase in
>>>>>> knife/brick/hand grenade usage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Domestic violence using guns is down. (But, sadly, DV is on the
>>>>>> increase, although some of the rozzers I know put some/a lot of that
>>>>>> down to them taking it more seriously, and being *trained* in what
>>>>>> to do, so it gets reported more often. And COVID-19.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>>
>>>>>> The suicide rate of farmers, in general, is down, and noticeably the
>>>>>> number where a gun is used are down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>>
>>>>>> And we haven't had a three year-old kill a family member with an
>>>>>> unsecured firearm in, oh, forever.
>>>>>
>>>>> So how many did you have per year before your gun laws?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, Australians aren't barbarian morons who need a gun to
>>>>>> compensate for their general uselessness. [OBSF - Wizards and
>>>>>> Swords.]
>>>>>
>>>>> If they aren't barbarian morons then why can't they be trusted with
>>>>> weapons?
>>>>>
>>>> Here's a general answer:
>>>> <https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases/2018/october/tough-laws-prevent-
>>> gun-deaths>
>>>> - "“In Australia we went from 614 firearm deaths in 1990 to 274 in
>>>> 2016".
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Gary B-)
>>> Not being a US citizen I must assume that you are unaware that the US
>>> also saw a huge drop in firearm deaths over the same period,while
>>> drowning in guns.
>>>
>> Really? Data, please?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Gary B-)
>
>https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-
>down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

Note that this was masked by a population increase that did not occur
in Australia.

> Dimensional Traveler
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > Are you claiming that this "invisible uniform" (however you define that)
> > is WORSE TODAY in the U.S. then it was when Black folks were subjected
> > to open and institutionalized racism on a daily basis and trapped under
> > an economic glass ceiling prior to the 1960s?
>
> An openly "subjected" people will generally try to keep their heads down
> to avoid triggering severe punishment for petty slights.
>
> A people that have been told officially that they are treated equally
> and have the same opportunities as the rest of the population but don't
> see that happening WILL start "acting out" in frustration in a variety
> of ways. More violence in general is one way. Rejection of the larger
> culture is another. Killing "their own" who "sell out" by succeeding in
> the larger culture is another. Lashing out at the larger society for
> not doing as well because one rejected it is another. Violent reaction
> to being beaten down by people telling you they aren't beating you down
> for being different is common. More common than violent reaction to
> being beaten down by those who openly subjugate you.
>
> Its not so much that their situation is worse today as the unfulfilled
> promise that they are and will be treated as equals makes them more
> willing to use violence to force the promise to be fulfilled, INSTANTLY.
> (Which simply isn't possible since there is at least a small portion
> of meritocracy involved in advancing in our society. It takes time to
> build the education, experience and social connections to advance.) But
> by our nature as humans we are not all that good as a species at
> specifically targeted violence. General mayhem at targets of
> opportunity is more our thing.

So back to the unsubstantiated standardized “it’s White people’s fault!”
excuse, which can’t be countered as there is nothing concrete to address,
one must simply accept it as fact or be labeled a racist. Got it.

> Paul S Person
> > J. Clarke
> >
> > Evething is disgusting to liberals. Except more and more and
> > more government control.
>
> And yet it is in /Texas/, hardly a liberal State whose Guv touts
> individual freedom, that people with "smart" thermostats are
> having them adjusted by the power company to save energy.

That's not unique to Texas.

Back when I bought my first house, I got suckered by electric
company here in Michigan into signing up for their interruptible
AC service with the claim that I'd be saving all kinda money.

I quickly discovered that the "savings" came from my AC being
turned off for most of the day, which resulted in my house being
900* when I came home from work and the AC not turning back
on until I went to bed, then running all night long to try and cool
down the house.

Meanwhile, commercial properties had their AC turned down to
60* and the girls in the office at work were wearing sweaters...

Needless to say, I called and bitched up a storm, demanding that
this useless service be disconnected and was told I was shit out'a
luck and committed to it for an entire year.

Luckily, my nextdoor neighbor worked for the gas company and
had experience with AC systems, so he came over with the special
key needed to unlock the interruptible control box and disabled it.

Never Never NEVER sign up for an interruptible "smart" thermostat
program from the electric company, they'll fuck you every time.

> Paul S Person
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > The statistics show that NYC’s strict anti-gun laws, which were imposed
> > back in the late 1800s, have had no observable effect on crime.
> >
> > https://ibb.co/RcxwHmL
>
> I wasn't aware that 2018 was "in the late 1800s".
>
> And the argument is that gun-control /increases/ gun deaths.
>
> So, unless NYC put /new/ control measures into effect, the data does
> /not/ support the argument, as the number of shootings is rising while
> the gun-control laws remain the same.

You seem to be missing the point: the murder rates in NYC went up and
down REGARDLESS of the existing and draconian gun control laws.

Guns are not and have never been the problem.

> Paul S Person
> > Ninapenda Jibini
> >
> > If you remove the name, the recent history of the left and the
> > history of the rise of power of the Nazi party in Germany in the
> > 20s is identical. Largely, I expect, because they're using that
> > history as a textbook.
>
> It is Trump and the Republican base, however, who are engaged
> in insurrection.

https://trendingpolitics.com/blm-blames-biden-for-terrorizing-black-communities-says-he-is-worse-than-trump-knab/

"Property insurance data estimates that 140 of the Black Lives Matter
protests in 2020 cost communities between $1 billion and $2 billion in
damages. Hundreds of police officers were injured in BLM protests in
2020, two of them killed. BLM was linked to over 91% of riots in a three
month period last year, which gave rise to numerous innocent civilians'
deaths. One particularly tumultuous period led to at least 19 deaths."

On 6/20/2021 2:50 PM, edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler
>>> Ed Stasiak
>>>
>>> Are you claiming that this "invisible uniform" (however you define that)
>>> is WORSE TODAY in the U.S. then it was when Black folks were subjected
>>> to open and institutionalized racism on a daily basis and trapped under
>>> an economic glass ceiling prior to the 1960s?
>>
>> An openly "subjected" people will generally try to keep their heads down
>> to avoid triggering severe punishment for petty slights.
>>
>> A people that have been told officially that they are treated equally
>> and have the same opportunities as the rest of the population but don't
>> see that happening WILL start "acting out" in frustration in a variety
>> of ways. More violence in general is one way. Rejection of the larger
>> culture is another. Killing "their own" who "sell out" by succeeding in
>> the larger culture is another. Lashing out at the larger society for
>> not doing as well because one rejected it is another. Violent reaction
>> to being beaten down by people telling you they aren't beating you down
>> for being different is common. More common than violent reaction to
>> being beaten down by those who openly subjugate you.
>>
>> Its not so much that their situation is worse today as the unfulfilled
>> promise that they are and will be treated as equals makes them more
>> willing to use violence to force the promise to be fulfilled, INSTANTLY.
>> (Which simply isn't possible since there is at least a small portion
>> of meritocracy involved in advancing in our society. It takes time to
>> build the education, experience and social connections to advance.) But
>> by our nature as humans we are not all that good as a species at
>> specifically targeted violence. General mayhem at targets of
>> opportunity is more our thing.
>
> So back to the unsubstantiated standardized “it’s White people’s fault!”
> excuse, which can’t be countered as there is nothing concrete to address,
> one must simply accept it as fact or be labeled a racist. Got it.
>
Not what I said. It is much more complex than any simple "Its THEIR
fault!".

--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.

On 2021-06-20 1:18 p.m., Magewolf wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:44:54 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>
>> On 20/06/2021 06:59, Magewolf wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 23:38:51 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/06/2021 19:22, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 13:58:42 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
>>>>> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19/06/2021 04:55, Wolffan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021 Jun 18, Quadibloc wrote (in
>>>>>>> article<ac6cb5d8-8afc-4121-88a9-e9a0a25ebb46n@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-6, Alan Baker wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-17 2:18 p.m., edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If guns were the problem then the murder rate would be more or
>>>>>>>>>> less the same across the country, instead of being concentrated
>>>>>>>>>> in the same inner cities year after year and ought to be
>>>>>>>>>> astronomically higher today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope. That doesn't follow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, it _does_ follow. Guns aren't "the problem". If peaceful
>>>>>>>> law-abiding citizens owned guns in greater numbers, this would not
>>>>>>>> greatly increase crime using guns.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The principal cause of crime is, after all, criminals.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The case for gun control is a bit more difficult to make.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gun control Will Not Bloody Work. It’s not just my opinion, it’s
>>>>>>> demonstrable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [SNIP]
>>>>>> Worked perfectly well here in Oz.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same way my can of elephant repellant works in Connecticut.
>>>>> Since I got my elephant repellant I haven't seen a single elepehant,
>>>>> so that solved the elephant problem real good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Violent crimes committed with guns are down, with no increase in
>>>>>> knife/brick/hand grenade usage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Domestic violence using guns is down. (But, sadly, DV is on the
>>>>>> increase, although some of the rozzers I know put some/a lot of that
>>>>>> down to them taking it more seriously, and being *trained* in what
>>>>>> to do, so it gets reported more often. And COVID-19.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>>
>>>>>> The suicide rate of farmers, in general, is down, and noticeably the
>>>>>> number where a gun is used are down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>>
>>>>>> And we haven't had a three year-old kill a family member with an
>>>>>> unsecured firearm in, oh, forever.
>>>>>
>>>>> So how many did you have per year before your gun laws?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, Australians aren't barbarian morons who need a gun to
>>>>>> compensate for their general uselessness. [OBSF - Wizards and
>>>>>> Swords.]
>>>>>
>>>>> If they aren't barbarian morons then why can't they be trusted with
>>>>> weapons?
>>>>>
>>>> Here's a general answer:
>>>> <https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases/2018/october/tough-laws-prevent-
>>> gun-deaths>
>>>> - "“In Australia we went from 614 firearm deaths in 1990 to 274 in
>>>> 2016".
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Gary B-)
>>> Not being a US citizen I must assume that you are unaware that the US
>>> also saw a huge drop in firearm deaths over the same period,while
>>> drowning in guns.
>>>
>> Really? Data, please?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Gary B-)
>
> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-
> down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/
>

Except that's a peak in 1993, not 1990.

How does that drop look for the same time period as Australia?

Answer: not nearly as good.

On 2021-06-20 1:27 p.m., Magewolf wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:42:00 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>
>> On 19/06/2021 23:55, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 23:38:51 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
>>> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/06/2021 19:22, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 13:58:42 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
>>>>> <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19/06/2021 04:55, Wolffan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021 Jun 18, Quadibloc wrote (in
>>>>>>> article<ac6cb5d8-8afc-4121-88a9-e9a0a25ebb46n@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-6, Alan Baker wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-17 2:18 p.m., edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If guns were the problem then the murder rate would be more or
>>>>>>>>>> less the same across the country, instead of being concentrated
>>>>>>>>>> in the same inner cities year after year and ought to be
>>>>>>>>>> astronomically higher today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope. That doesn't follow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, it _does_ follow. Guns aren't "the problem". If peaceful
>>>>>>>> law-abiding citizens owned guns in greater numbers, this would not
>>>>>>>> greatly increase crime using guns.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The principal cause of crime is, after all, criminals.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The case for gun control is a bit more difficult to make.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gun control Will Not Bloody Work. It’s not just my opinion, it’s
>>>>>>> demonstrable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [SNIP]
>>>>>> Worked perfectly well here in Oz.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same way my can of elephant repellant works in Connecticut.
>>>>> Since I got my elephant repellant I haven't seen a single elepehant,
>>>>> so that solved the elephant problem real good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Violent crimes committed with guns are down, with no increase in
>>>>>> knife/brick/hand grenade usage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Domestic violence using guns is down. (But, sadly, DV is on the
>>>>>> increase, although some of the rozzers I know put some/a lot of that
>>>>>> down to them taking it more seriously, and being *trained* in what
>>>>>> to do, so it gets reported more often. And COVID-19.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>>
>>>>>> The suicide rate of farmers, in general, is down, and noticeably the
>>>>>> number where a gun is used are down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Down from what to what?
>>>>>
>>>>>> And we haven't had a three year-old kill a family member with an
>>>>>> unsecured firearm in, oh, forever.
>>>>>
>>>>> So how many did you have per year before your gun laws?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, Australians aren't barbarian morons who need a gun to
>>>>>> compensate for their general uselessness. [OBSF - Wizards and
>>>>>> Swords.]
>>>>>
>>>>> If they aren't barbarian morons then why can't they be trusted with
>>>>> weapons?
>>>>>
>>>> Here's a general answer:
>>>> <https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases/2018/october/tough-laws-prevent-
> gun-deaths>
>>>> - "“In Australia we went from 614 firearm deaths in 1990 to 274 in
>>>> 2016".
>>>
>>> In other words you went from nothing to nothing. You didn't have a
>>> problem that needed to be fixed but you fixed it anyway.
>>>
>> That. Is . Just. Disgusting.
>>
>> And proof, if we needed any more, that in the USA, it is true that no
>> lives matter.
>>
>> And although I rarely publicise it, this piece of trash is now in the
>> permanent kill file.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Gary B-)
>
> That is a drop of less than 400 people a year. More people die from
> faulty ladders per year in the US than that and yet I do not see an
> entire industry thriving on attacking the evil ladder companies and the
> people who buy them. I wonder why?
>

It couldn't be relative population...

....could it?

Or are you really too thick not to consider proportionality.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 16:45:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 6/20/2021 2:50 PM, edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler
>>>> Ed Stasiak
>>>>
>>>> Are you claiming that this "invisible uniform" (however you define that)
>>>> is WORSE TODAY in the U.S. then it was when Black folks were subjected
>>>> to open and institutionalized racism on a daily basis and trapped under
>>>> an economic glass ceiling prior to the 1960s?
>>>
>>> An openly "subjected" people will generally try to keep their heads down
>>> to avoid triggering severe punishment for petty slights.
>>>
>>> A people that have been told officially that they are treated equally
>>> and have the same opportunities as the rest of the population but don't
>>> see that happening WILL start "acting out" in frustration in a variety
>>> of ways. More violence in general is one way. Rejection of the larger
>>> culture is another. Killing "their own" who "sell out" by succeeding in
>>> the larger culture is another. Lashing out at the larger society for
>>> not doing as well because one rejected it is another. Violent reaction
>>> to being beaten down by people telling you they aren't beating you down
>>> for being different is common. More common than violent reaction to
>>> being beaten down by those who openly subjugate you.
>>>
>>> Its not so much that their situation is worse today as the unfulfilled
>>> promise that they are and will be treated as equals makes them more
>>> willing to use violence to force the promise to be fulfilled, INSTANTLY.
>>> (Which simply isn't possible since there is at least a small portion
>>> of meritocracy involved in advancing in our society. It takes time to
>>> build the education, experience and social connections to advance.) But
>>> by our nature as humans we are not all that good as a species at
>>> specifically targeted violence. General mayhem at targets of
>>> opportunity is more our thing.
>>
>> So back to the unsubstantiated standardized “it’s White people’s fault!”
>> excuse, which can’t be countered as there is nothing concrete to address,
>> one must simply accept it as fact or be labeled a racist. Got it.
>>
>Not what I said. It is much more complex than any simple "Its THEIR
>fault!".

This whole business of "fault" is part of the problem. I used to work
for a little tiny company. Whenever anything went wrong, the boss
wanted to know whose fault it was. Now I work for a great big
company. Whenever anything goes wrong, the boss wants to know how we
change the system so it doesn't happen again. (note that I've worked
for great big companies where blame is the game too--where I work now
is exceptional).

On Sunday, June 20, 2021 at 12:58:12 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 15:20:56 -0700 (PDT), "edstas...@gmail.com"
> <edstas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Paul S Person
> >> > Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
> >> >
> >> >Shootings in NYC
> >> >
> >> >May 2018: 77
> >> >May 2019: 61
> >> >May 2020: 100
> >> >May 2021: 173
> >>
> >> But does this correlate to new Gun Laws?
> >>
> >> Or is it possible that /something else/ is causing this?
> >>
> >> Cabin fever from the pandemic, perhaps?
> >
> >The statistics show that NYC’s strict anti-gun laws, which were imposed back
> >in the late 1800s, have had no observable effect on crime.
> I wasn't aware that 2018 was "in the late 1800s".
>

He seems to be off by 20 years or less.

1911 is when the Sullivan law was passed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_Act

> And the argument is that gun-control /increases/ gun deaths.
>
> So, unless NYC put /new/ control measures into effect, the data does
> /not/ support the argument, as the number of shootings is rising while
> the gun-control laws remain the same.
> --

Kevin R

Hi all,

A quick example of how near total gun-bans have failed.

South Africa (Republic of South Africa, RSA, on the Southern end of the wedge shaped landmass called Africa).

Thirty years ago it was possible for people of a certain cluster of ethnic groups to own pretty much as many and any variety of firearm they liked. Even automatic weapons, including these charming beauties (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL#South_Africa, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vektor_R4). IF you were not a member of the cluster of favored ethnic groups but still were considered politically useful you could probably get a firearm license with the right kind of politeness and bribery.

Gun violence not linked to the political struggles of the 70s through to the 90s was relatively low. Typical gun crime that made the media was about lunatic fathers who murdered their families in the dead of night and then committed suicide. Gun violence between people of different ethnic groups was almost always political (unless the people doing the committing were Lebanese, because then everyone "knew" that was just 'suicide', because no one was stupid enough to mess with the Lebanese community).

Outlawing private firearm ownership was a major objective of the new government in 94. Typically the process was one of denying annual license renewals by forcing people to answer countless questions on a stupid questionaire that was almost never available in the home language of the person trying to renew their firearm licenses.

100,000s of legal firearms were removed from circulation. Even people with legitimate reasons for owning a weapon (like game park owners, and livestock farmer) ended up loosing their guns.

Funny thing, every year since 94 the rates of all violent crimes in South Africa have climbed, unless you want to take the governments word for things, and their experience with numbers clearly demonstrates that they have been to the George Orwell 1984 School of Basic Arithmetic. But especially violent crimes committed with firearms is up, way up. Why? Because when guns are outlawed only the CRIMINALS have guns. Well, them and the police but in SA its has become impossible to tell the difference between the two. Well, maybe not, criminals at least have a work ethic and come to you when they want something. Cops just hang out at fast food places and tell the passing clientele that they're in need of a meal or ten.

Gun control no matter where it is tried is not about saving lives, but rather about preventing people from being able to protect themselves, their loved ones and their property. When was the last time you heard of a pro-gun-control politician announcing that their personal protection detail would now go unarmed? Never happens.

And for the idiots asking where the massacres committed with knives are Google China and knife attacks. In the absence of access to firearm criminals and lunatics (and people who might even possibly be legitimate political enemies of the State) select the nearest meat cleaver or pointy kitchen knife and do pretty much as much harm as the average gun armed mass murderer.

Anyway, if gun-grabbers really wanted to save lives they'd go after the criminals who commit gun violence. But that could be dangerous, and they couldn't possibly consider putting themselves in the firing line.

Any way, take care
Regards
Frank

On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 01:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Frank Scrooby
<frank.scrooby@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>A quick example of how near total gun-bans have failed.
>
>South Africa (Republic of South Africa, RSA, on the Southern end of the wedge shaped landmass called Africa).
>
>Thirty years ago it was possible for people of a certain cluster of ethnic groups to own pretty much as many and any variety of firearm they liked. Even automatic weapons, including these charming beauties (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL#South_Africa, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vektor_R4). IF you were not a member of the cluster of favored ethnic groups but still were considered politically useful you could probably get a firearm license with the right kind of politeness and bribery.
>
>Gun violence not linked to the political struggles of the 70s through to the 90s was relatively low. Typical gun crime that made the media was about lunatic fathers who murdered their families in the dead of night and then committed suicide. Gun violence between people of different ethnic groups was almost always political (unless the people doing the committing were Lebanese, because then everyone "knew" that was just 'suicide', because no one was stupid enough to mess with the Lebanese community).
>
>Outlawing private firearm ownership was a major objective of the new government in 94. Typically the process was one of denying annual license renewals by forcing people to answer countless questions on a stupid questionaire that was almost never available in the home language of the person trying to renew their firearm licenses.
>
>100,000s of legal firearms were removed from circulation. Even people with legitimate reasons for owning a weapon (like game park owners, and livestock farmer) ended up loosing their guns.
>
>Funny thing, every year since 94 the rates of all violent crimes in South Africa have climbed, unless you want to take the governments word for things, and their experience with numbers clearly demonstrates that they have been to the George Orwell 1984 School of Basic Arithmetic. But especially violent crimes committed with firearms is up, way up. Why? Because when guns are outlawed only the CRIMINALS have guns. Well, them and the police but in SA its has become impossible to tell the difference between the two. Well, maybe not, criminals at least have a work ethic and come to you when they want something. Cops just hang out at fast food places and tell the passing clientele that they're in need of a meal or ten.
>
>Gun control no matter where it is tried is not about saving lives, but rather about preventing people from being able to protect themselves, their loved ones and their property. When was the last time you heard of a pro-gun-control politician announcing that their personal protection detail would now go unarmed? Never happens.
>
>And for the idiots asking where the massacres committed with knives are Google China and knife attacks. In the absence of access to firearm criminals and lunatics (and people who might even possibly be legitimate political enemies of the State) select the nearest meat cleaver or pointy kitchen knife and do pretty much as much harm as the average gun armed mass murderer.
>
>Anyway, if gun-grabbers really wanted to save lives they'd go after the criminals who commit gun violence. But that could be dangerous, and they couldn't possibly consider putting themselves in the firing line.

The trouble with "going after the criminals" is that the government,
through the "war on drugs" has managed to create such an immense
criminal class that they have no hope of controlling it without
throwing out any semblance of a free society.

The sad part is that gun control advocates think that a "war on guns"
is going to have a different outcome.

On 21 Jun 2021 at 00:45:24 BST, "Dimensional Traveler"
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

> On 6/20/2021 2:50 PM, edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler
>>>> Ed Stasiak
>>>>
>>>> Are you claiming that this "invisible uniform" (however you define that)
>>>> is WORSE TODAY in the U.S. then it was when Black folks were subjected
>>>> to open and institutionalized racism on a daily basis and trapped under
>>>> an economic glass ceiling prior to the 1960s?
>>>
>>> An openly "subjected" people will generally try to keep their heads down
>>> to avoid triggering severe punishment for petty slights.
>>>
>>> A people that have been told officially that they are treated equally
>>> and have the same opportunities as the rest of the population but don't
>>> see that happening WILL start "acting out" in frustration in a variety
>>> of ways. More violence in general is one way. Rejection of the larger
>>> culture is another. Killing "their own" who "sell out" by succeeding in
>>> the larger culture is another. Lashing out at the larger society for
>>> not doing as well because one rejected it is another. Violent reaction
>>> to being beaten down by people telling you they aren't beating you down
>>> for being different is common. More common than violent reaction to
>>> being beaten down by those who openly subjugate you.
>>>
>>> Its not so much that their situation is worse today as the unfulfilled
>>> promise that they are and will be treated as equals makes them more
>>> willing to use violence to force the promise to be fulfilled, INSTANTLY.
>>> (Which simply isn't possible since there is at least a small portion
>>> of meritocracy involved in advancing in our society. It takes time to
>>> build the education, experience and social connections to advance.) But
>>> by our nature as humans we are not all that good as a species at
>>> specifically targeted violence. General mayhem at targets of
>>> opportunity is more our thing.
>>
>> So back to the unsubstantiated standardized “it’s White people’s fault!”
>> excuse, which can’t be countered as there is nothing concrete to address,
>> one must simply accept it as fact or be labeled a racist. Got it.
>>
> Not what I said. It is much more complex than any simple "Its THEIR
> fault!".

It is, however, very sigificantly people who think like Ed's fault.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all"
-- Hypatia of Alexandria

On Sunday, June 20, 2021 at 10:30:33 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote:
> On Sunday, June 20, 2021 at 12:58:12 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 15:20:56 -0700 (PDT), "edstas...@gmail.com"
> > <edstas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Paul S Person
> > >> > Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
> > >> >
> > >> >Shootings in NYC
> > >> >
> > >> >May 2018: 77
> > >> >May 2019: 61
> > >> >May 2020: 100
> > >> >May 2021: 173
> > >>
> > >> But does this correlate to new Gun Laws?
> > >>
> > >> Or is it possible that /something else/ is causing this?
> > >>
> > >> Cabin fever from the pandemic, perhaps?
> > >
> > >The statistics show that NYC’s strict anti-gun laws, which were imposed back
> > >in the late 1800s, have had no observable effect on crime.
> > I wasn't aware that 2018 was "in the late 1800s".
> >
> He seems to be off by 20 years or less.
>
> 1911 is when the Sullivan law was passed.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_Act
> > And the argument is that gun-control /increases/ gun deaths.
> >
> > So, unless NYC put /new/ control measures into effect, the data does
> > /not/ support the argument, as the number of shootings is rising while
> > the gun-control laws remain the same.

Let's put the goalposts back where they started. Terry said 'Shootings New York are up
70% since the pandemic started'. Alan Baker challenged him to provide proof (which he
did not). I looked up the statistics and showed that Terry was in fact correct. It doesn't
have to do with long term history, or the introduction of new gun controls.

FWIW, i'm generally pro gun, own a number of firearms and have a concealed carry permit.

Pt

On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 14:50:11 -0700 (PDT), "edstas...@gmail.com"
<edstasiak1067@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Dimensional Traveler
>> > Ed Stasiak
>> >
>> > Are you claiming that this "invisible uniform" (however you define that)
>> > is WORSE TODAY in the U.S. then it was when Black folks were subjected
>> > to open and institutionalized racism on a daily basis and trapped under
>> > an economic glass ceiling prior to the 1960s?
>>
>> An openly "subjected" people will generally try to keep their heads down
>> to avoid triggering severe punishment for petty slights.
>>
>> A people that have been told officially that they are treated equally
>> and have the same opportunities as the rest of the population but don't
>> see that happening WILL start "acting out" in frustration in a variety
>> of ways. More violence in general is one way. Rejection of the larger
>> culture is another. Killing "their own" who "sell out" by succeeding in
>> the larger culture is another. Lashing out at the larger society for
>> not doing as well because one rejected it is another. Violent reaction
>> to being beaten down by people telling you they aren't beating you down
>> for being different is common. More common than violent reaction to
>> being beaten down by those who openly subjugate you.
>>
>> Its not so much that their situation is worse today as the unfulfilled
>> promise that they are and will be treated as equals makes them more
>> willing to use violence to force the promise to be fulfilled, INSTANTLY.
>> (Which simply isn't possible since there is at least a small portion
>> of meritocracy involved in advancing in our society. It takes time to
>> build the education, experience and social connections to advance.) But
>> by our nature as humans we are not all that good as a species at
>> specifically targeted violence. General mayhem at targets of
>> opportunity is more our thing.
>
>So back to the unsubstantiated standardized “it’s White people’s fault!”
>excuse, which can’t be countered as there is nothing concrete to address,
>one must simply accept it as fact or be labeled a racist. Got it.

Ah, so you believe that the USA has /not/ been run by white people
since before it was founded -- which does, indeed, make them
responsible as there is /no one else to blame/.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

> J. Clarke
> > Dimensional Traveler
> > > Ed Stasiak
> > >
> > > So back to the unsubstantiated standardized “it’s White people’s fault!”
> > > excuse, which can’t be countered as there is nothing concrete to address,
> > > one must simply accept it as fact or be labeled a racist. Got it.
> >
> > Not what I said. It is much more complex than any simple "Its THEIR fault!".
>
> This whole business of "fault" is part of the problem.

I agree, the claim that guns are at fault and thus ALL Americans should be
stripped of their right to keep & bear arms has been proven again and again
over the decades to be bullshit.

Its a willful disregard for scientific evidence to promote a political agenda and
something that those here would never support on any other subject but when
it comes to guns, they turn their brain off and go along with the propaganda.

The simply fact is that guns are not and have never been the problem and
imposing gun control does not and will not fix the problem, as criminals who
are willing to rob, rape and kill aren’t dissuaded by gun laws, the ONLY people
who are affected are the already law abiding victims of criminals.