On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 04:13:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <ipqn0lFrj5eU1@mid.individual.net>,
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>In article <qz3FtB.21MG@kithrup.com>,
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>In article <5r3gjg9i46695f5382lu8lqblve1k9i3qv@4ax.com>,
>>>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>>><rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>A society of men with no women is seen in various
>>>>>religious communities, with the question of how
>>>>>laundry is done addressed by not having any.
>>>>>However, Captain America's original situation
>>>>>was an American army camp which I suppose
>>>>>probably was all guys, I don't know. It really is
>>>>>not quite the same.
>>>>
>>>>In fairness the most common "society of men without women" are either
>>>>military stories or stories of ships at sea.
>>>>
>>>>You simply can't perform Moby Dick or Saving Private Ryan with a 50%
>>>>female cast.
>>>
>>>Not in the mid-nineteenth or -twentieth century in which those
>>>books/films are set. In a more egalitarian future, however....
>>>
>>
>>The past is already being re-written for kids movies to show kids what
>>they expect to see.
>>
>>This was notably true in the mediocre "The House with a Clock in Its Walls"
>>where 1955 Michigan has notably modern ethnic balance and mixing in its
>>public shcools.
>>
>>The excellent "Merry Poppins Returns" was the same. Now, since the
>>UK never had formal Jim Crow, I'm sure there could have been a few
>>black lawyers in a city the size of London in the 1930s, but they
>>certainly would have been remarkable individuals. And it's hard
>>to imagine a prestigious bank president's public facing secretary
>>having been black.
>
>Consider that a high-caste Hindu would have been considered
>"black" in London.
>
>(There's this children's book, no longer available for
>understandable reasons, called _Little Black Sambo._ Kid gets
>treed by a group of tigers, who since they can't climb the tree
>run around it faster and faster until they turn into a puddle of
>melted butter--_ghi_, in other words. They're in India, not
>Africa.)

Well, of course they are. Tigers are in India, Lions are in Africa.

The cartoon has him defeating the tiger (by turning him into melted
butter) /to defend his mother and sister/. I don't recall if that was
in the book I had as a very small child, but I /do/ recall that the
butter ended up on a very large plate of pancakes!

I don't think the problem is the /story/. I think the problem is that
"Sambo" was used by racists as an insult. We have, IOW, only ourselves
to blame.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:48:12 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 2:08:34 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> You *really* think
>> there wouldn't be the same (only more so) reaction to a Wonder Man
>> movie?
>
>We'll never know, because it would violate a Marvel trademark.

Marvel trademarked "Wonder Man"?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:48:12 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 2:08:34 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> You *really* think
> >> there wouldn't be the same (only more so) reaction to a Wonder Man
> >> movie?
> >
> >We'll never know, because it would violate a Marvel trademark.
>
> Marvel trademarked "Wonder Man"?

Long after Danny Kaye.
He was a one-off character in a 1964 issue of The Avengers who was brought back later, because, "created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby."
By 1986 at the latest, his mark was used in trade on a one-shot comic:

https://www.comics.org/issue/69283/cover/4/

You can see the little TM by the name.
His name may have been used on a cover before, with an assertion that Marvel was trading on that mark, but I'm not researching it.

--
-Jack

In article <hbohjgloe40mlmr1dgbagb32a6ruai6129@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:48:12 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 2:08:34 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> You *really* think
>>> there wouldn't be the same (only more so) reaction to a Wonder Man
>>> movie?
>>
>>We'll never know, because it would violate a Marvel trademark.
>
>Marvel trademarked "Wonder Man"?
>--

Well I don't know the actual trademark status, but they certainly have
a character named "Wonder Man". He was an Avenger at one time.

Given the way they glommed onto the "Captain Marvel" trademark, to DC's
pain, I wouldn't doubt it.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

In article <6a331ccb-3e40-4af2-9fb1-066bcc865b09n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, 8 September 2021 at 03:31:18 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <sh92te$tsu$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On 7/3/2021 11:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 21:55:47 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> In article <sbqd3a$74b$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> >>> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> On 30/06/2021 18.41, Kevrob wrote:
>> >>>>> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 4:08:34 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>> >>>> Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> How about recasting Wonder Woman as a man? Prince Dane of the all
>> >>>>>> male island of something-mumble, and so on. You *really* think
>> >>>>>> there wouldn't be the same (only more so) reaction to a Wonder Man
>> >>>>>> movie?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Sometimes a "gender-flip" adds something. My favorite is
>> >>>>> Roz Russell as Hildy Johnson, turning "The Front Page" into
>> >>>>> "His Girl Friday."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Girl_Friday
>> >>>>
>> >>>> John Varley went one better in _Steel Beach_ by having Hildy start
>> >>>> out (in the novel) as male and then switch to female. Now I need to
>> >>>> reread it to see if some character is a Cary Grant analog.
>> >>>
>> >>> Well, let us know. Now, if you'd generalized it as a
>> >>> gender-switching story of any kind with a Cary Grant analog, I'd
>> >>> recommend "Some Like It Hot," in which Tony Curtis's character,
>> >>> when not hiding from the mob in female clothing, adopts a Cary
>> >>> Grant accent to woo Marilyn Monroe's character. He came by the
>> >>> accent almost honestly; he was in the US Navy during WWII and
>> >>> stationed someplace where there was a projector but only a few
>> >>> films, one of which starred Grant. The guys got to the point
>> >>> where they knew every line of dialog, so they'd turn the sound
>> >>> off and recite the dialog themselves. Curtis got to voice
>> >>> Grant.
>> >>
>> >> It's not really gender-switching, but Cary Grant spends about half of
>> >> "Bringing Up Baby" wearing Katherine Hepburn's bathrobe.
>> >
>> >My wife freaking loves that movie. I must admit that it is hilarious,
>> >especially when the guy starts to make the big cat cry and the big cat
>> >beats him to it.
>> >
>> Heh. I have never seen that one, but your description of that
>> scene make me want to. If ever I discover that some site that my
>> daughter subscribes to is streaming it, I'll watch it. Cats rule.
>
>Wikipedia says it's a tame leopard, from Brazil.

I have read that the leopard wasn't all that tame, and a lot of
scenes were shot with a sheet of glass between the cat and the
actors. Do you happen to know if that's true?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <bonhjgl63sh1rro61loq7103speu8slsli@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 02:38:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <617gjgppdd63utriovj8rtnkhu9gaq0eu9@4ax.com>,
>>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 18:20:09 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>>><rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>A society of men with no women is seen in various
>>>>>religious communities, with the question of how
>>>>>laundry is done addressed by not having any.
>>>>>However, Captain America's original situation
>>>>>was an American army camp which I suppose
>>>>>probably was all guys, I don't know. It really is
>>>>>not quite the same.
>>>>
>>>>In fairness the most common "society of men without women" are either
>>>>military stories or stories of ships at sea.
>>>>
>>>>You simply can't perform Moby Dick or Saving Private Ryan with a 50%
>>>>female cast.
>>>
>>>Of course you can--these days they'd cast a Chinese woman in a
>>>wheelchair as Ahab.
>>
>>Hmmm. You could steal the plot, as _The Wrath of Khan_ did,
>>substituting the Chinese woman in a wheelchair for a white male
>>American with a wooden leg, and a spacecraft or time machine or
>>inter-universe portal for the Pequod. The root of the story is a
>>person who has been maimed by a force of nature and is determined
>>to have revenge on it. Which is impossible.
>
>/The Personal History of David Copperfield/ is the sort of thing he is
>thinking of.
>
>This is a fairly good adaptation of /David Copperfield/ (as usual, it
>gets more and more compressed as it goes along, but what's new about
>that?) with an ... interesting ... cast. Which I found disturbing,
>although I can think of alternative choices (that is, actors whose
>characters could have been switched) that would have made it not
>disturbing at all.

I wonder what your reaction would have been to _The Mahabharata_,
which *could* have been filmed with an all-Indian cast. Instead,
it was cast with every ethnicity and skin shade to be found on
this planet. And it worked.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <hbohjgloe40mlmr1dgbagb32a6ruai6129@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:48:12 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 2:08:34 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> You *really* think
>>> there wouldn't be the same (only more so) reaction to a Wonder Man
>>> movie?
>>
>>We'll never know, because it would violate a Marvel trademark.
>
>Marvel trademarked "Wonder Man"?

Its lawyers would argue so.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <14ohjgdd74nijfp0jhohi0djdea6m5096m@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 04:13:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <ipqn0lFrj5eU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>>In article <qz3FtB.21MG@kithrup.com>,
>>>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>In article <5r3gjg9i46695f5382lu8lqblve1k9i3qv@4ax.com>,
>>>>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>>>>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>>>><rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>A society of men with no women is seen in various
>>>>>>religious communities, with the question of how
>>>>>>laundry is done addressed by not having any.
>>>>>>However, Captain America's original situation
>>>>>>was an American army camp which I suppose
>>>>>>probably was all guys, I don't know. It really is
>>>>>>not quite the same.
>>>>>
>>>>>In fairness the most common "society of men without women" are either
>>>>>military stories or stories of ships at sea.
>>>>>
>>>>>You simply can't perform Moby Dick or Saving Private Ryan with a 50%
>>>>>female cast.
>>>>
>>>>Not in the mid-nineteenth or -twentieth century in which those
>>>>books/films are set. In a more egalitarian future, however....
>>>>
>>>
>>>The past is already being re-written for kids movies to show kids what
>>>they expect to see.
>>>
>>>This was notably true in the mediocre "The House with a Clock in Its Walls"
>>>where 1955 Michigan has notably modern ethnic balance and mixing in its
>>>public shcools.
>>>
>>>The excellent "Merry Poppins Returns" was the same. Now, since the
>>>UK never had formal Jim Crow, I'm sure there could have been a few
>>>black lawyers in a city the size of London in the 1930s, but they
>>>certainly would have been remarkable individuals. And it's hard
>>>to imagine a prestigious bank president's public facing secretary
>>>having been black.
>>
>>Consider that a high-caste Hindu would have been considered
>>"black" in London.
>>
>>(There's this children's book, no longer available for
>>understandable reasons, called _Little Black Sambo._ Kid gets
>>treed by a group of tigers, who since they can't climb the tree
>>run around it faster and faster until they turn into a puddle of
>>melted butter--_ghi_, in other words. They're in India, not
>>Africa.)
>
>Well, of course they are. Tigers are in India, Lions are in Africa.
>
>The cartoon has him defeating the tiger (by turning him into melted
>butter) /to defend his mother and sister/. I don't recall if that was
>in the book I had as a very small child,

No. The boy escaped the tigers by staying out of reach till they
turned themselves to butter.

but I /do/ recall that the
>butter ended up on a very large plate of pancakes!

Correct. Ghi (that is, clarified butter, that's been melted and
all the water-based parts of it removed, so it won't go rancid as
quickly) is important in Indian cookery. Which is why we know
the tale is set in India.
>
>I don't think the problem is the /story/. I think the problem is that
>"Sambo" was used by racists as an insult. We have, IOW, only ourselves
>to blame.

For some values of "we". I never met a black person till eighth
grade, nor an Indian till university. When I did, I endeavored
to treat them like people, and I hope I succeeded.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <c2e49009-150c-4572-b696-f52f7175a23an@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, 8 September 2021 at 05:02:23 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:59:50 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
>> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 9:54:45 AM UTC-6, Steve Coltrin wrote:
>> >
>> >> Already people are complaining because the trailers show women doing
>> >> things other than fetching coffee, and nobody is smoking.
>> >
>> >Not having read the Foundation Trilogy again *recently*, I thought this was
>> >some strange kind of joke. But reading the replies, apparently in the novel
>> >Asimov really did put these characteristic elements of 1960s culture in
>> >this story of the far future.
>> >
>> >Obviously, a film adaptation for audiences today of the Foundation Trilogy
>> >would be simply _bizarre_ if it depicted an advanced far-future world as
>> >so far behind the times even for our age. So while gratuitous political
>> >correctness is one thing, these are changes that are obviously necessary.
>> I suspect that once cancer is knocked down smoking will come back.
>
>Warren Ellis et al's _Transmetropolitan_ has that premise,
>except that mainly smoking is "part of how to be a journalist".
>The central character is drawn from Hunter S. Thompson,
>which apparently makes him a /columnist/.
>
>However, in real life, there's heart disease and dementia
>and probably a ton of other things that smoking does for
>you, too.

And making you a literal stench in the nostrils of anyone who doesn't
smoke. "Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray."

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

And anyway, vaping is cooler. And very hipster
>is a little machine you suck on that /bakes/ tobacco for you.

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

["Bringing Up Baby"]
> >
> >Wikipedia says it's a tame leopard, from Brazil.
> I have read that the leopard wasn't all that tame, and a lot of
> scenes were shot with a sheet of glass between the cat and the
> actors. Do you happen to know if that's true?

The IMDb trivia page for it lists a scene where reflections on the glass can be seen.
Also a split-screen effect where the leash held by Kate and the leash on the cat are at different angles.

(Just recently thanks to IMDb trivia I saw both the on-set reflection of Frank Sinatra in glass and the special effect reflection added to engage him in conversation in "The Joker Is Wild".)

--
-Jack

On 07/09/2021 21.23, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <q73gjg5qhddk9ebobua0a9524asa9iq0dm@4ax.com>,
> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:34:30 -0600, Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org>
>> wrote:

>>>> And let's not forget Bayta Darrell, and her daughter Arkady.
>>>
>>> Oh, and characters who were men in the stories being women in the series
>>> is apparently some sort of war crime.
>>
>> Well at least we will be spared that extra creepy scene of the lord of
>> Kalgan saying he had thought about founding a dynasty with Arkady -
>> extra creepy as Arkady was 14 or so at the time.
>>
>> In 2021 that would be considered uber politically incorrect. I was
>> about 14 when I first read Second Foundation and even then found it
>> creepy. Which I'm completely sure was Asimov's intent since villains
>> are supposed to say and do terrible things.
>
> Nitpick: the Mule's consideration of finding a suitable consort
> was directed at Bayta, Arkady's mother (in her early twenties,
> married, not yet a mother), in _Foundation and Empire._ We find
> out in _Second Foundation_ why he dismisses the idea.

That's almost right. A couple of nits:

The lord of Kalgan who was hitting on Arkady was the Mule's successor,
Stettin. He didn't actually use the term "dynasty", but that was
probably because he couldn't think two years out. No doubt at all
about what he wanted to do, though. To a fourteen-year-old.

Bayta was not Arkady's mother, but her grandmother. Bayta and Toran
got together (off-screen) and presented the Galaxy with Dr. Toran
Darell, Jr. He fathered Arkadia, but was (apparently) widowed by the
opening of "Search by the Foundation" (second part of _Second
Foundation_).

We find out at the end of "The Mule" (second part of _Foundation and
Empire_) why the Mule wasn't going to have a dynasty with Bayta or
anybody else.

--
Michael F. Stemper
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
more like prunes than rhubarb does.

In article <46b2c1d1-afab-4c86-886b-15a229ed33cdn@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>["Bringing Up Baby"]
>> >
>> >Wikipedia says it's a tame leopard, from Brazil.
>> I have read that the leopard wasn't all that tame, and a lot of
>> scenes were shot with a sheet of glass between the cat and the
>> actors. Do you happen to know if that's true?
>
>The IMDb trivia page for it lists a scene where reflections on the glass
>can be seen.
>Also a split-screen effect where the leash held by Kate and the leash on
>the cat are at different angles.
>
>(Just recently thanks to IMDb trivia I saw both the on-set reflection of
>Frank Sinatra in glass and the special effect reflection added to engage
>him in conversation in "The Joker Is Wild".)
>
I've never seen that one either. Why did they need to encase
Sinatra in glass? AFAIK he had neither claws nor fangs.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Wednesday, 8 September 2021 at 20:45:04 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <46b2c1d1-afab-4c86...@googlegroups.com>,
> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >
> >["Bringing Up Baby"]
> >> >
> >> >Wikipedia says it's a tame leopard, from Brazil.
> >> I have read that the leopard wasn't all that tame, and a lot of
> >> scenes were shot with a sheet of glass between the cat and the
> >> actors. Do you happen to know if that's true?
> >
> >The IMDb trivia page for it lists a scene where reflections on the glass
> >can be seen.
> >Also a split-screen effect where the leash held by Kate and the leash on
> >the cat are at different angles.
> >
> >(Just recently thanks to IMDb trivia I saw both the on-set reflection of
> >Frank Sinatra in glass and the special effect reflection added to engage
> >him in conversation in "The Joker Is Wild".)
> >
> I've never seen that one either. Why did they need to encase
> Sinatra in glass? AFAIK he had neither claws nor fangs.

Just a jack knife.

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 07:30:42 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, 8 September 2021 at 03:31:18 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <sh92te$tsu$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On 7/3/2021 11:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 21:55:47 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> In article <sbqd3a$74b$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> >>> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> On 30/06/2021 18.41, Kevrob wrote:
>> >>>>> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 4:08:34 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>> >>>> Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> How about recasting Wonder Woman as a man? Prince Dane of the all
>> >>>>>> male island of something-mumble, and so on. You *really* think
>> >>>>>> there wouldn't be the same (only more so) reaction to a Wonder Man
>> >>>>>> movie?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Sometimes a "gender-flip" adds something. My favorite is
>> >>>>> Roz Russell as Hildy Johnson, turning "The Front Page" into
>> >>>>> "His Girl Friday."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Girl_Friday
>> >>>>
>> >>>> John Varley went one better in _Steel Beach_ by having Hildy start
>> >>>> out (in the novel) as male and then switch to female. Now I need to
>> >>>> reread it to see if some character is a Cary Grant analog.
>> >>>
>> >>> Well, let us know. Now, if you'd generalized it as a
>> >>> gender-switching story of any kind with a Cary Grant analog, I'd
>> >>> recommend "Some Like It Hot," in which Tony Curtis's character,
>> >>> when not hiding from the mob in female clothing, adopts a Cary
>> >>> Grant accent to woo Marilyn Monroe's character. He came by the
>> >>> accent almost honestly; he was in the US Navy during WWII and
>> >>> stationed someplace where there was a projector but only a few
>> >>> films, one of which starred Grant. The guys got to the point
>> >>> where they knew every line of dialog, so they'd turn the sound
>> >>> off and recite the dialog themselves. Curtis got to voice
>> >>> Grant.
>> >>
>> >> It's not really gender-switching, but Cary Grant spends about half of
>> >> "Bringing Up Baby" wearing Katherine Hepburn's bathrobe.
>> >
>> >My wife freaking loves that movie. I must admit that it is hilarious,
>> >especially when the guy starts to make the big cat cry and the big cat
>> >beats him to it.
>> >
>> Heh. I have never seen that one, but your description of that
>> scene make me want to. If ever I discover that some site that my
>> daughter subscribes to is streaming it, I'll watch it. Cats rule.
>
>Wikipedia says it's a tame leopard, from Brazil.

And very well trained.

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:34:08 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <6a331ccb-3e40-4af2-9fb1-066bcc865b09n@googlegroups.com>,
>Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>On Wednesday, 8 September 2021 at 03:31:18 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <sh92te$tsu$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >On 7/3/2021 11:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> >> On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 21:55:47 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> In article <sbqd3a$74b$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> >>> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>> On 30/06/2021 18.41, Kevrob wrote:
>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 4:08:34 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
>>> >>>> Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>> How about recasting Wonder Woman as a man? Prince Dane of the all
>>> >>>>>> male island of something-mumble, and so on. You *really* think
>>> >>>>>> there wouldn't be the same (only more so) reaction to a Wonder Man
>>> >>>>>> movie?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Sometimes a "gender-flip" adds something. My favorite is
>>> >>>>> Roz Russell as Hildy Johnson, turning "The Front Page" into
>>> >>>>> "His Girl Friday."
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Girl_Friday
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> John Varley went one better in _Steel Beach_ by having Hildy start
>>> >>>> out (in the novel) as male and then switch to female. Now I need to
>>> >>>> reread it to see if some character is a Cary Grant analog.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Well, let us know. Now, if you'd generalized it as a
>>> >>> gender-switching story of any kind with a Cary Grant analog, I'd
>>> >>> recommend "Some Like It Hot," in which Tony Curtis's character,
>>> >>> when not hiding from the mob in female clothing, adopts a Cary
>>> >>> Grant accent to woo Marilyn Monroe's character. He came by the
>>> >>> accent almost honestly; he was in the US Navy during WWII and
>>> >>> stationed someplace where there was a projector but only a few
>>> >>> films, one of which starred Grant. The guys got to the point
>>> >>> where they knew every line of dialog, so they'd turn the sound
>>> >>> off and recite the dialog themselves. Curtis got to voice
>>> >>> Grant.
>>> >>
>>> >> It's not really gender-switching, but Cary Grant spends about half of
>>> >> "Bringing Up Baby" wearing Katherine Hepburn's bathrobe.
>>> >
>>> >My wife freaking loves that movie. I must admit that it is hilarious,
>>> >especially when the guy starts to make the big cat cry and the big cat
>>> >beats him to it.
>>> >
>>> Heh. I have never seen that one, but your description of that
>>> scene make me want to. If ever I discover that some site that my
>>> daughter subscribes to is streaming it, I'll watch it. Cats rule.
>>
>>Wikipedia says it's a tame leopard, from Brazil.
>
>I have read that the leopard wasn't all that tame, and a lot of
>scenes were shot with a sheet of glass between the cat and the
>actors. Do you happen to know if that's true?

Probably. There's one scene in which the leopard is doing the classic
cat-on-a-leash maneuver and we don't actually see Kate and the leopard
in the same frame.

In article <573717e3-0bcf-45e3-adbb-4a8e7ca87dc7n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, 8 September 2021 at 20:45:04 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <46b2c1d1-afab-4c86...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >
>> >["Bringing Up Baby"]
>> >> >
>> >> >Wikipedia says it's a tame leopard, from Brazil.
>> >> I have read that the leopard wasn't all that tame, and a lot of
>> >> scenes were shot with a sheet of glass between the cat and the
>> >> actors. Do you happen to know if that's true?
>> >
>> >The IMDb trivia page for it lists a scene where reflections on the glass
>> >can be seen.
>> >Also a split-screen effect where the leash held by Kate and the leash on
>> >the cat are at different angles.
>> >
>> >(Just recently thanks to IMDb trivia I saw both the on-set reflection of
>> >Frank Sinatra in glass and the special effect reflection added to engage
>> >him in conversation in "The Joker Is Wild".)
>> >
>> I've never seen that one either. Why did they need to encase
>> Sinatra in glass? AFAIK he had neither claws nor fangs.
>
>Just a jack knife.

Really? I never saw that!
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 04:13:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <ipqn0lFrj5eU1@mid.individual.net>,
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>In article <qz3FtB.21MG@kithrup.com>,
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>In article <5r3gjg9i46695f5382lu8lqblve1k9i3qv@4ax.com>,
>>>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>>><rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>A society of men with no women is seen in various
>>>>>religious communities, with the question of how
>>>>>laundry is done addressed by not having any.
>>>>>However, Captain America's original situation
>>>>>was an American army camp which I suppose
>>>>>probably was all guys, I don't know. It really is
>>>>>not quite the same.
>>>>
>>>>In fairness the most common "society of men without women" are either
>>>>military stories or stories of ships at sea.
>>>>
>>>>You simply can't perform Moby Dick or Saving Private Ryan with a 50%
>>>>female cast.
>>>
>>>Not in the mid-nineteenth or -twentieth century in which those
>>>books/films are set. In a more egalitarian future, however....
>>>
>>
>>The past is already being re-written for kids movies to show kids what
>>they expect to see.
>>
>>This was notably true in the mediocre "The House with a Clock in Its Walls"
>>where 1955 Michigan has notably modern ethnic balance and mixing in its
>>public shcools.
>>
>>The excellent "Merry Poppins Returns" was the same. Now, since the
>>UK never had formal Jim Crow, I'm sure there could have been a few
>>black lawyers in a city the size of London in the 1930s, but they
>>certainly would have been remarkable individuals. And it's hard
>>to imagine a prestigious bank president's public facing secretary
>>having been black.
>
>Consider that a high-caste Hindu would have been considered
>"black" in London.

I remember something that was translated as the n-word used in an
Italian movie to refer to Giancarlo Gianinni. Of course compared to
Mariangela Melato he _was_ pretty dark. And one of our actuarial
interns of Indian descent was, well, black--there's no other word for
his color--he could have played an Atevi with no makeup.

>(There's this children's book, no longer available for
>understandable reasons, called _Little Black Sambo._

What leads you to believe it's no longer available? Amazon lists more
than 200 versions of it.

>Kid gets
>treed by a group of tigers, who since they can't climb the tree
>run around it faster and faster until they turn into a puddle of
>melted butter--_ghi_, in other words. They're in India, not
>Africa.)

Ghi isn't melted butter, it's clarified butter. Nice stuff--shelf
stable at room temperature.

>>That's not a complaint though -- it *is* what the kids expect, and
>>it didn't make the mediocre movie mediocre or keep the excellent movie
>>from being excellent.
>>
>>Moving to more on-topic here things, fantasy has the advantage that
>>since it didn't happen at all, you can't say it didn't happen that
>>way, but in both the recent "Powder Mage" and "10,000 Names" series,
>>we have French Revolution analogs where women are common on the
>>pseudo-Napoleonic battlefields, something I think is pretty unlikely,
>>but is now what *we* expect..
>
>Oh, do tell me that their leader is named Marianne, and her
>bodice tends to slip....
>
>https://www.cafeducycliste.com/en_us/la-gazette/marianne/
>
>Scroll down past the chick in the bicycle helmet to see the
>original.

On Wednesday, 8 September 2021 at 22:05:11 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <573717e3-0bcf-45e3...@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, 8 September 2021 at 20:45:04 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <46b2c1d1-afab-4c86...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> >
> >> >["Bringing Up Baby"]
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Wikipedia says it's a tame leopard, from Brazil.
> >> >> I have read that the leopard wasn't all that tame, and a lot of
> >> >> scenes were shot with a sheet of glass between the cat and the
> >> >> actors. Do you happen to know if that's true?
> >> >
> >> >The IMDb trivia page for it lists a scene where reflections on the glass
> >> >can be seen.
> >> >Also a split-screen effect where the leash held by Kate and the leash on
> >> >the cat are at different angles.
> >> >
> >> >(Just recently thanks to IMDb trivia I saw both the on-set reflection of
> >> >Frank Sinatra in glass and the special effect reflection added to engage
> >> >him in conversation in "The Joker Is Wild".)
> >> >
> >> I've never seen that one either. Why did they need to encase
> >> Sinatra in glass? AFAIK he had neither claws nor fangs.
> >
> >Just a jack knife.
> Really? I never saw that!

No, he keeps it out of sight.

On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 2:34:38 PM UTC-4, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
> > In article <m2tulfs...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> > Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>Already people are complaining because the trailers show women doing
> >>things other than fetching coffee, and nobody is smoking.
> >
> > Whaaat? The stories were *written* in the 1940s, but they take
> > place in a future so distant that the origin of the human species
> > is a matter of fruitless debate. (Just ask Lord Dorwin.)
> I'm not saying I understand it.
> > And let's not forget Bayta Darrell, and her daughter Arkady.
> Oh, and characters who were men in the stories being women in the series
> is apparently some sort of war crime.
> --

As you know, Bob,* it's called gender-flipping, and if you were to
change a character from a 1940s story from female to (straight)
male, the Twitter mob would go after your testicles, at least your
metaphorical ones.

*(Roberta?)

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenderFlip

--
Kevin R

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 04:04:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <ipqn33Frj5eU2@mid.individual.net>,
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>In article <qz3GoC.22Hz@kithrup.com>,
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>In article <617gjgppdd63utriovj8rtnkhu9gaq0eu9@4ax.com>,
>>>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 18:20:09 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 4 Jul 2021 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>>>><rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>A society of men with no women is seen in various
>>>>>>religious communities, with the question of how
>>>>>>laundry is done addressed by not having any.
>>>>>>However, Captain America's original situation
>>>>>>was an American army camp which I suppose
>>>>>>probably was all guys, I don't know. It really is
>>>>>>not quite the same.
>>>>>
>>>>>In fairness the most common "society of men without women" are either
>>>>>military stories or stories of ships at sea.
>>>>>
>>>>>You simply can't perform Moby Dick or Saving Private Ryan with a 50%
>>>>>female cast.
>>>>
>>>>Of course you can--these days they'd cast a Chinese woman in a
>>>>wheelchair as Ahab.
>>>
>>>Hmmm. You could steal the plot, as _The Wrath of Khan_ did,
>>>substituting the Chinese woman in a wheelchair for a white male
>>>American with a wooden leg, and a spacecraft or time machine or
>>>inter-universe portal for the Pequod. The root of the story is a
>>>person who has been maimed by a force of nature and is determined
>>>to have revenge on it. Which is impossible.
>>>
>>
>>Jim Kirk is a force of nature? Hmm, ...yep works for me.
>
>From Khan's point of view, he absolutely is. What else could
>have defeated KhaN?

Apropos of nothing I was looking for something to watch and Disney
presented me with Doogie Howser, MD. Except that Doogie is a Hawaiian
surfer girl in addition to being a 16 year old MD, and she's "Doogie
Kamealoha". Just out of curiosity I watched the first episode--it
isn't nearly as bad as I expected. I might watch some more of it at
some point.

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 10:02:23 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> I suspect that once cancer is knocked down smoking will come back.

ObSf: Sleeper (the Woody Allen movie).

John Savard

On Thursday, July 1, 2021 at 2:05:25 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <sbl3e7$m6e$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On 01/07/2021 06.40, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> >> As for smoking... probably most 1940s writers
> >> were kippered up to their elbows,

> >dead fish? huh?

> Kippers are herring that have been preserved by smoking. I never
> saw "kippered up" as an adjectival phrase before, but then I'm a
> Yank. It was easy enough to decipher.

Although I've never heard "kippered up", I have heard the use of
the word as a verb, because I usually hear the fish referred to as
"kippered herring".

John Savard

On Thursday, July 1, 2021 at 5:06:04 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> Actually it wasn't bad at all. On their _second_ lunar mission the
> Soviets send a woman, so the US has to hurriedly put the Mercury 13 on
> official status.

Whereas, in our timeline, when the Russians sent up Valentina Tereshkova,
the United States only noted that it was a more chivalrous nation which would
not send women out to do dangerous jobs like exploring space.

So apparently not only did the Russians get to the Moon first, but the equality
of women has taken on greater importance at an earliler date in the U.S..

John Savard

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 7:16:34 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 7/3/2021 11:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

> > It's not really gender-switching, but Cary Grant spends about half of
> > "Bringing Up Baby" wearing Katherine Hepburn's bathrobe.

> My wife freaking loves that movie. I must admit that it is hilarious,
> especially when the guy starts to make the big cat cry and the big cat
> beats him to it.

I have a "Bringing Up Baby" anecdote.

It's about 6AM in the morning, or maybe it only feels like it, because I'm
on a Greyhound bus coming back to Edmonton from Vancouver.

The bus driver gets on the PA and gives a long spiel about how the
company *requires* him to show a movie now over the TV screens on
the bus.

Said movie was Bringing Up Baby.

There were howls of outrage, asking him to turn it off, but he could not
heed them.

I asked if, perchance, he was at least permitted to turn the volume down?

Everyone was happy. (I didn't get back to sleep, but I did enjoy the
movie.)

I was puzzled by the incident, as I did not feel it really constituted
evidence of a genius-level IQ on my part.

John Savard

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 8:59:15 AM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Wednesday, 8 September 2021 at 05:33:46 UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:

> > Yes, that was when the Foundation Trilogy was written, but these things
> > persisted into the early 1960s. I remember seeing something - was it a
> > Star Trek episode? - about the 1960s where a time-traveller from the
> > future fans herself after escaping from an elevator where people were
> > smoking...
> "About" the 1960s, not "from" ... hmm? _Quantum Leap_
> maybe, what was its usual range? How about _Timeless_?

> 1980s Star Trek "The Royale" is set in a 20th century
> hotel... in space. Classic Trek had "Assignment: Earth",
> the one with Gary Seven and his /very/ smoky teleporter,
> and "A Piece of the Action" which wasn't set in Al Capone's
> Chicago but did look like it. But I think your weak sister
> would be William Shatner or Leonard Nimoy in that case.
> Or Michael Dorn.

I was thinking of some Deep Space Nine episode perhaps.

But on reflection, the actress I saw fanning the smoke away
was too famous to have been on Star Trek.

Maybe the movie didn't even involve time travel, but I seem
to remember her experiencing the smoke from a future
perspective.

John Savard