In message <t3gnmd$hp3$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <84gl5htg716h069hoc2vr2a3l4orshvvgu@4ax.com>, at 14:12:02 on
>> Sat, 16 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t3c3su$vlc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:30 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old
>>>>>>>>>>>maroon passport
>>>>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue
>>>>>>>>>>>ones. (I
>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by
>>>>>>>>>>>officials before
>>>>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took
>>>>>>>>most of the
>>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged
>>>>>>>>marriages.
>>>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>>
>>>> But not necessarily to the immigration department, rather than the
>>>> security department.
>>>
>>> Are they separate? It's Border Force in the UK and the DHS in the US.
>>
>> I don't think you'll find that Border Force or DHS is in the business of
>> issuing immigration visas (and hence checking if a person presenting
>> themselves for travel is perhaps a previously-failed applicant).
>
>Most people travel without visas, and obviously BF or DHS will know which
>visas have been issued.

You've gone off at a bit of a tangent. API is sent to the border
authorities, who can then check against their no-fly or
persona-non-grata lists. What I doubt is that said border authority then
checks with the immigration (aka visa issuing) authorities to enquire
about their visa status ahead of them arriving.
--
Roland Perry

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:50:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:09:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
>>>>> same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's what we don't know. It may not even care: the American Fred Bloggs
>>>> would be welcomed in without problems, even if he wasn't known to be due.
>>>>
>>> The trouble will occur when the UK Fred Bloggs departs the USA with
>>> his USA passport as the UK Fred Bloggs will still be "in" the USA
>>
>> No, the UK Bloggs never entered the US, so he couldn't overstay. He would
>> have had to enter on his US passport.
>>
> If he entered on his UK passport then that starts the clock which
> doesn't get stopped if he fails to leave on his UK passport.

As we've already discussed, he's *obliged* to enter on his US passport,
which would be much more convenient anyway.

As he won't have an ESTA, he won't be able to enter on his UK passport
anyway.

>
>>> according to the system as reported more than once in newspapers when
>>> people (more usually Mrs Bloggs married to a USA-only Mr Bloggs IIRC)
>>> have forgotten to use the right passport.
>>
>> Dual nationals, as already discussed, have to enter the US on their US
>> passport. You don't go through passport control on departure from the US.
>> In fact, departure gates are not even classed as domestic or international.
>>
> That is the requirement. People don't always obey requirements and
> using the wrong passport is something that can be done without being
> obvious unless the system has them flagged from a previous occurence.
>
>> The airline scans your passport at check-in, and presumably sends the DHS a
>> list of which passport holders have departed on each flight. Not being one,
>> I don't know if they insist that dual passport holders show the same
>> passport they registered when they booked the flight.
>>
> Dual passport or not, showing a different passport from that
> previously advised ought to be fairly obvious to those checking.

This is all theory — I'm interested in what happens in reality.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3i22d$rsr$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:50:05 on Sun, 17 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:09:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
>>>>> same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's what we don't know. It may not even care: the American Fred Bloggs
>>>> would be welcomed in without problems, even if he wasn't known to be due.
>>>>
>>> The trouble will occur when the UK Fred Bloggs departs the USA with
>>> his USA passport as the UK Fred Bloggs will still be "in" the USA
>>
>> No, the UK Bloggs never entered the US, so he couldn't overstay. He would
>> have had to enter on his US passport.
>>
>>> according to the system as reported more than once in newspapers when
>>> people (more usually Mrs Bloggs married to a USA-only Mr Bloggs IIRC)
>>> have forgotten to use the right passport.
>>
>> Dual nationals, as already discussed, have to enter the US on their US
>> passport. You don't go through passport control on departure from the US.
>
> For those with long memories, the original excuse given for
> fingerprinting aliens arriving in the USA, was so they could be
> registered for operating a kiosk at the departure gate, where
> they could flag their departure.
>
> After some limited trials, the idea was dropped. But they still take the
> fingerprints on entry...
>
>> In fact, departure gates are not even classed as domestic or international.
>>
>> The airline scans your passport at check-in, and presumably sends the DHS a
>> list of which passport holders have departed on each flight. Not being one,
>> I don't know if they insist that dual passport holders show the same
>> passport they registered when they booked the flight.
>
> And of course the passenger might miss the flight (either accidentally
> or deliberately).

I think the system would catch those. The airline definitely knows who
boarded and left on the flight, not just who checked-in.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <6qmp5hhist33r5fkbd65ts4ou9m2mluklc@4ax.com>, at 04:35:45 on
> Mon, 18 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:50:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:09:05 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 16/04/2022 09:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> The US system seems to know who's due to arrive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does it link the data so it knows that Fred Bloggs (UK passport) is the
>>>>>> same person as Fred Blogg (US passport)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what we don't know. It may not even care: the American Fred Bloggs
>>>>> would be welcomed in without problems, even if he wasn't known to be due.
>>>>>
>>>> The trouble will occur when the UK Fred Bloggs departs the USA with
>>>> his USA passport as the UK Fred Bloggs will still be "in" the USA
>>>
>>> No, the UK Bloggs never entered the US, so he couldn't overstay. He would
>>> have had to enter on his US passport.
>>>
>> If he entered on his UK passport then that starts the clock which
>> doesn't get stopped if he fails to leave on his UK passport.
>
> That's how it used to work when the exit-flag was a bit of paper stapled
> in the passport, which the airline check-in desk was supposed to grab
> and forward, when you left. Sometimes they forgot, which is where the
> horror stories arise from.
>
> Now that we have API/PNR/ESTA, electronic manifests and so on, I
> seriously doubt many passengers fall through the same cracks.
>

I used to worry in the old days if the airline forgot to remove the entry
slip of paper from my passport at check-in, and I only noticed after I got
home. It did happen occasionally, and even if they did remove it, I had no
way of knowing it had been processed properly.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3ht7u$r4u$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:27:42 on Sun, 17 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>
>>>> Is it different in other countries? Do normal, law-abiding citizens
>>>> routinely get their fingerprints scanned? It's not
>>>> something I've come across.
>>>
>>> In North America if you have a Global Entry or NEXUS card which lets
>>> you use e-gates at US and (for NEXUS) Canadian airport immigration,
>>> they now use fingerprints. NEXUS used to use iris scans but for some
>>> reason they switched. The iris scans worked reasonably well unlike the
>>> UK ones a decade ago.
>>
>> I should have made clearer that I was thinking of routine regular finger
>> printing of normal, law abusing citizens, other than at borders. I've been
>> finger printed at several countries' borders, but nowhere else. Roland
>> seemed to be suggesting that the UK was unusual in not requiring finger
>> print scans in other circumstances,
>
> My comment was about the stigma which the British public as a whole
> attaches to being fingerprinted by the authorities, aka "treated like a
> criminal".
>
> Hence the minor uproar when schools started using them as tokens for
> lunch money and borrowing library books.
>
>> and I was asking where/when/which other countries required them.
>
> Some (many?) US driving licences. Not embedded in the licence, but
> accompanying the routine application (/renewal). The latter more
> frequent in the USA anyway, including when you change address.
>
> Sometimes characterised as "thumb prints", as if that made it more
> acceptable. I suppose only criminals get asked for a full set.
>
>> Of course, millions of us happily give our fingerprints every day to access
>> our own devices. And, I assume, some workplaces require fingerprint scans
>> for access.
>
> Neither of those are storing fingerprints for big government databases.
> Indeed, I suspect they are only storing hashes.

Yes, I'm sure that they are storing some sort of numeric code derived from
specific details of the fingerprint, not an image. As with the government
machines, they don't work so well if you have wet or sweaty hands, or a cut
on your finger.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3gnmd$hp3$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:46:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <84gl5htg716h069hoc2vr2a3l4orshvvgu@4ax.com>, at 14:12:02 on
>>> Sat, 16 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t3c3su$vlc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:30 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old
>>>>>>>>>>>> maroon passport
>>>>>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue
>>>>>>>>>>>> ones. (I
>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by
>>>>>>>>>>>> officials before
>>>>>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took
>>>>>>>>> most of the
>>>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged
>>>>>>>>> marriages.
>>>>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not necessarily to the immigration department, rather than the
>>>>> security department.
>>>>
>>>> Are they separate? It's Border Force in the UK and the DHS in the US.
>>>
>>> I don't think you'll find that Border Force or DHS is in the business of
>>> issuing immigration visas (and hence checking if a person presenting
>>> themselves for travel is perhaps a previously-failed applicant).
>>
>> Most people travel without visas, and obviously BF or DHS will know which
>> visas have been issued.
>
> You've gone off at a bit of a tangent. API is sent to the border
> authorities, who can then check against their no-fly or
> persona-non-grata lists. What I doubt is that said border authority then
> checks with the immigration (aka visa issuing) authorities to enquire
> about their visa status ahead of them arriving.

You can't even check in without your ESTA or visa being verified. So, yes,
the DHS does check them.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3goqd$os4$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:06:05 on Sun, 17 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3e34h$bbo$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:45 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
>>>>>> in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/c
>>>>> ompany/ab
>>>>> out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports,
>>>
>>> Oh dear, here we go again. As it happens I was one of the original
>>> subscribers to the UK's Iris-scanning gates. Which turned out to be
>>> far more wobbly than advertised.
>>
>> Yes, we know you used to be a frequent flier 20 years ago, but things have
>> changed since then.
>
> I gave the example to debunk one of your unbecoming, tedious and
> unfounded jibes that I'm some sort of Luddite, whereas I'm a very
> early adopter.

Nobody doubts that you were once, decades ago, an early adopter. But that
was, what, 30-40 years ago, when you worked in IT? You lost your interest
in modern technology in the last century.

I simply pointed out that your frequent flier days were a long time ago,
and so all your observations about flying are based on how things used to
be, decades ago, and not how they are now. You ought to make this clear
when you share your historical reminiscences with us.

>
> As for the Iris gates, they did have an advantage even if dysfunctional.
> They rarely had a queue, and if they rejected you it was to the *head*
> of the manual queue (not the rear).

I don't think many people signed up with them.

On 18/04/2022 09:31, Roland Perry wrote:
> For those with long memories, the original excuse given for
> fingerprinting aliens arriving in the USA, was so they could be
> registered for operating a kiosk at the departure gate, where
> they could flag their departure.

Any country has the right to collect whatever data they want on
foreigners, just wish we did!

Some years ago I was given a link to a demonstration of a system that
can link data from a whole range of different completely unrelated
sources and look for interactions between people which normally would
not be noticed. They might not be direct interactions.

On 18/04/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
> Who said camo? The rule, aiui, is that commissioned officers [I'm
> unsighted about the troops] should travel in proper uniform, except in
> those countries where identifying themselves in that way is regarded as
> a security risk.

Can apply in the UK, some time ago a friend told me that he stopped to
assist at road accident so was late getting to the weekly TA session. He
got told off because he had his regimental belt on. His regiment was not
very popular with the Irish terrorists!

On 18/04/2022 10:40, Roland Perry wrote:
> As for the Iris gates, they did have an advantage even if dysfunctional.
> They rarely had a queue, and if they rejected you it was to the*head*
> of the manual queue (not the rear).

Were they disinfected between each user?

Not sure I would like to put my eye against something someone else has
used even pre-COVID.

On 18/04/2022 11:45, MB wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 09:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>> For those with long memories, the original excuse given for
>> fingerprinting aliens arriving in the USA, was so they could be
>> registered for operating a kiosk at the departure gate, where
>> they could flag their departure.
>
> Any country has the right to collect whatever data they want on
> foreigners, just wish we did!
>

Have you any idea what data we collect on foreigners? No, thought not.

> Some years ago I was given a link to a demonstration of a system that
> can link data from a whole range of different completely unrelated
> sources and look for interactions between people which normally would
> not be noticed. They might not be direct interactions.
>
>

And the first people it would be used on is the locals, not the immigrants.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/04/2022 11:52, MB wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 10:40, Roland Perry wrote:
>> As for the Iris gates, they did have an advantage even if dysfunctional.
>> They rarely had a queue, and if they rejected you it was to the*head*
>> of the manual queue (not the rear).
>
> Were they disinfected between each user?
>
> Not sure I would like to put my eye against something someone else has
> used even pre-COVID.
>

You don't physically put your eye against it.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/04/2022 12:07, Graeme Wall wrote:
> You don't physically put your eye against it.

OK, never seen one so wondered.

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> Wrote in message:
>> Biometrics on passports are only intended to secure the fact that the
>> holder of the passport is the intended person. They are not an index
>> into a global fingerprint database (if that was practical, you wouldn't
>> need the biometrics on the passport at all, after all.)
>
> It's also worth adding that for automated biometric passport
> checks to be useful, they don't need to be 100% accurate. They
> don't even need to be 99% accurate. They only need to be more
> accurate than "tired border guard looking at grainy 8 year old
> photo in passport, looking at you with your newly grown beard,
> looking back at photo in passport, and then saying 'yeah, close
> enough'". Any better than that and they are a substantial
> improvement on security.
>

There’s an interesting report about eGates here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1045688/An_inspection_of_ePassport_gates_June_2020_to_January_2021.pdf

This inspection examined the efficiency and effectiveness of the Home
Office ePassport gate operation (also referred to as ‘e-gates’ or ‘gates’),
focusing specifically on:
• the identification of vulnerable passengers at the gates
• the resources, training and data required and delivered to manage the
gate operation
• stakeholder engagement
• the impact of the expansion of gates to B5JSSK2 nationals
• using the knowledge gained from the current operation of the gates to
plan for the future border

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 12:06:32 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18/04/2022 11:45, MB wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 09:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> For those with long memories, the original excuse given for
>>> fingerprinting aliens arriving in the USA, was so they could be
>>> registered for operating a kiosk at the departure gate, where
>>> they could flag their departure.
>>
>> Any country has the right to collect whatever data they want on
>> foreigners, just wish we did!
>>
>
>Have you any idea what data we collect on foreigners? No, thought not.
>
>> Some years ago I was given a link to a demonstration of a system that
>> can link data from a whole range of different completely unrelated
>> sources and look for interactions between people which normally would
>> not be noticed. They might not be direct interactions.
>>
>>
>
>And the first people it would be used on is the locals, not the immigrants.

Yes, very true!

In message <t3jgpn$d93$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:35 on Mon, 18 Apr
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 18/04/2022 11:52, MB wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 10:40, Roland Perry wrote:

>>> As for the Iris gates, they did have an advantage even if dysfunctional.
>>> They rarely had a queue, and if they rejected you it was to
>>>the*head* of the manual queue (not the rear).

>> Were they disinfected between each user?
>> Not sure I would like to put my eye against something someone else
>>has used even pre-COVID.
>
>You don't physically put your eye against it.

Which was big part of the problem. You stood some distance way while it
demanded "left a bit, up a bit, right a bit, down a bit, Oh I give
up..."
--
Roland Perry

On 18/04/2022 12:37, MB wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 12:07, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> You don't physically put your eye against it.
>
> OK, never seen one so wondered.

Never had an eye test? Similar sort of arrangement.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>
>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>
>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>
>
> Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
> like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
> associated rail card.

I had that issue with a Senior Anytime ticket at Huddersfield station a few
weeks ago. It was back to normal (i.e. accepting my ticket) when I
travelled the following week.

--
Jeremy Double

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>
>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>
>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>
>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>> children.
>>
>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>
>>
>
> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
> they’ve left?

You can’t get a boarding pass without providing your passport details, so
the UK does do outbound passport checks, it’s done electronically, and not
by someone looking at your passport.

--
Jeremy Double

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>> arrival.
>>>>
>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>
>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>> entry into the US.
>>
>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>
> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
> the US.

Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.

--
Jeremy Double

Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>
>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>
>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>
>>
>> Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
>> like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
>> associated rail card.
>
> I had that issue with a Senior Anytime ticket at Huddersfield station a few
> weeks ago. It was back to normal (i.e. accepting my ticket) when I
> travelled the following week.
>

Having now read up on eGates, 12 to 17 year olds have to be accompanied. In
practice that means they have to go in immediately after the parent or
through an adjacent gate. A 12 to 17 year old passport flashes up and alert
to the border force officer supervising the gates. If they can’t
immediately identify accompanying adult the gate is not released and the
child has to go through to the manual desk. How they identify the
accompanying adult when surnames are different I have no idea. Perhaps the
group is linked by the advance passenger info. This probably explains why
the teenager daughters couldn’t get through - they were probably separated
from the adult.

There seems to be a bit of a thing about unaccompanied children. Around a
decade ago my 16 year old son flew back from somewhere on his own and was
going to get the train back from the airport. Border Force wouldn’t let him
go until they had phoned me to confirm the travel arrangements.

Further reading indicates that at Glasgow airport they turn the eGates off
when flights from Romania come in, such is the perceived risk of child
smuggling.

Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>> airline tells
>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>>>> reject it as
>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>
>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>
>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>> entry into the US.
>>>
>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>
>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>> the US.
>
> Pre-screening is standard IMX, although I haven’t been across to the US
> since 2016. I was going there about three times a year at one stage.
>

Roland is talking about American security staff pre-screening people before
they can check in to US-bound flights. I've never seen or experienced that,
but it may be because it apparently only happens with US carriers, which I
always avoid.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>
>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
>>> like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
>>> associated rail card.
>>
>> I had that issue with a Senior Anytime ticket at Huddersfield station a few
>> weeks ago. It was back to normal (i.e. accepting my ticket) when I
>> travelled the following week.
>>
>
> Having now read up on eGates, 12 to 17 year olds have to be accompanied. In
> practice that means they have to go in immediately after the parent or
> through an adjacent gate. A 12 to 17 year old passport flashes up and alert
> to the border force officer supervising the gates. If they can’t
> immediately identify accompanying adult the gate is not released and the
> child has to go through to the manual desk. How they identify the
> accompanying adult when surnames are different I have no idea. Perhaps the
> group is linked by the advance passenger info. This probably explains why
> the teenager daughters couldn’t get through - they were probably separated
> from the adult.
>
> There seems to be a bit of a thing about unaccompanied children. Around a
> decade ago my 16 year old son flew back from somewhere on his own and was
> going to get the train back from the airport. Border Force wouldn’t let him
> go until they had phoned me to confirm the travel arrangements.
>
> Further reading indicates that at Glasgow airport they turn the eGates off
> when flights from Romania come in, such is the perceived risk of child
> smuggling.
>

Wow!

On 18/04/2022 16:57, Jeremy Double wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>
>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>
>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>
>>
>> Couldn’t or wouldn’t? ie error or deliberately programmed to reject? Bit
>> like my Anytime ticket that wouldn’t open the gate line because of an
>> associated rail card.
>
> I had that issue with a Senior Anytime ticket at Huddersfield station a few
> weeks ago. It was back to normal (i.e. accepting my ticket) when I
> travelled the following week.
>

Seems to be a fairly routine thing to programme a gateline to reject
tickets bought with railcards recently. Had it a couple of times,
including at Waterloo, which caused a certain amount of chaos as a lot
of students were travelling and they overwhelmed the number of grippers
available to check railcards.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3gkvq$jn$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:42 on Sun, 17 Apr 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>>>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>>>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>>>>> recognition isn’t
>>>>>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>>>>>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>>>>>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>>>>>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>>>>> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>>>>> various civil liberties infringements.
>>>>
>>>> Passport biometric is set by International agreement, and needs to be
>>>> consistent.
>>>
>>> The standard allows for fingerprints, for whatever reason we’ve opted out.
>>>
>>> https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04126/SN04126.pdf
>>>
>>> The EU has set minimum standards for passports which include the use of
>>> facial and fingerprint biometrics. The UK is not covered by the
>>> regulations. The previous government had intended to introduce “second
>>> generation” ePassports in 2012, which would have included fingerprint data,
>>> in order to keep pace with the EU regulations. However, the Coalition
>>> Government halted these plans and does not intend to extend the use of
>>> biometrics in UK passports beyond facial biometrics
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if fingerprints can be taken by ePassport machines without human
>> supervision? Whenever I've had mine taken (and not just at the US border)
>> there was always a human supervisor telling you what to do, and making sure
>> you did it correctly. The error rate seems very high compared to facial
>> recognition, and it's slow.
>>
>>
>
> It’s very quick on my iPad and iPhone. Enrolling is slow, but recognising
> an enrolled fingerprint is very fast. If you went for a palm print, ie 5
> digits at once, you only have to recognise one to get positive
> identification. I doubt it is any more error prone than facial recognition.
> For the latter there’s well publicised instances of people getting thorough
> eGates by accidentally using their spouse’s passport.
>
>

iPhone recognises my face almost instantly, passport gates take somewhat
longer to let me through.

It's hardly the same level of importance or inconvenience if a wrong result
(either positive or negative) occurs, either.

Anna Noyd-Dryver