Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3du88$bfj$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:24 on Sat, 16 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3c5ph$eob$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:49 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who
>>>>>>>>>>> came throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old
>>>>>>>>>>> maroon passport but they didn't work for her teenage
>>>>>>>>>>> daughters with new blue ones. (I couldn't understand why her
>>>>>>>>>>> daughters had problems with being asked where they had come
>>>>>>>>>>> from and where they were going by officials before they were
>>>>>>>>>>> allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>>
>>>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to
>>>> start scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as
>>>> unpaid Border Force staff.
>>>
>>> Just like airport security then.
>>>
>>>> I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list though.
>>>
>>> Not sure there's an equivalent to the "no fly list" for ferries. Wanted
>>> for skipping bail, or whatever, is far too sophisticated for these sorts
>>> of checks.
>>>
>>>> And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using different
>>>> passports for out than in.
>>>
>>> The USA insists that their dual nationals (which they've allowed longer
>>> than some people imagine) use the USA passport for inbound travel.
>>
>> Which would certainly make good sense for the passport holders. They might,
>> of course, have registered their other passport with the airline.
>
> Even if they did that, on arrival in the USA the temptation to use the
> shorter queues (and lack of fingerprinting) for Citizens would give the
> game away. Even if using the non-citizen queues, the immigration
> officials will be looking up their citizenship too.
>
>>> Meanwhile simply by the proxy of the length of queues, the UK strongly
>>> encourages use of the UK passport for arrivals.
>>
>> US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
>> in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.
>
> <https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/ab
> out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>
>
>

Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3du88$bfj$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:24 on Sat, 16 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3c5ph$eob$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:49 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who
>>>>>>>>>>>> came throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old
>>>>>>>>>>>> maroon passport but they didn't work for her teenage
>>>>>>>>>>>> daughters with new blue ones. (I couldn't understand why her
>>>>>>>>>>>> daughters had problems with being asked where they had come
>>>>>>>>>>>> from and where they were going by officials before they were
>>>>>>>>>>>> allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to
>>>>> start scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as
>>>>> unpaid Border Force staff.
>>>>
>>>> Just like airport security then.
>>>>
>>>>> I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list though.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure there's an equivalent to the "no fly list" for ferries. Wanted
>>>> for skipping bail, or whatever, is far too sophisticated for these sorts
>>>> of checks.
>>>>
>>>>> And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using different
>>>>> passports for out than in.
>>>>
>>>> The USA insists that their dual nationals (which they've allowed longer
>>>> than some people imagine) use the USA passport for inbound travel.
>>>
>>> Which would certainly make good sense for the passport holders. They might,
>>> of course, have registered their other passport with the airline.
>>
>> Even if they did that, on arrival in the USA the temptation to use the
>> shorter queues (and lack of fingerprinting) for Citizens would give the
>> game away. Even if using the non-citizen queues, the immigration
>> officials will be looking up their citizenship too.
>>
>>>> Meanwhile simply by the proxy of the length of queues, the UK strongly
>>>> encourages use of the UK passport for arrivals.
>>>
>>> US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
>>> in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.
>>
>> <https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/ab
>> out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>
>>
>>
>
> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>
>

Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It must add
to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is it a legal thing
or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 10:04:31 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3du88$bfj$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:24 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3c5ph$eob$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:49 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> came throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old
>>>>>>>>>>>>> maroon passport but they didn't work for her teenage
>>>>>>>>>>>>> daughters with new blue ones. (I couldn't understand why her
>>>>>>>>>>>>> daughters had problems with being asked where they had come
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from and where they were going by officials before they were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>>>>> for people
>>>>>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>>>>> automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ferry ports, to be accurate the ferry operators, have had to
>>>>>> start scanning passports in recent years, so they’ve been acting as
>>>>>> unpaid Border Force staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just like airport security then.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I’ve no idea what happens if you appear on the wanted list though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure there's an equivalent to the "no fly list" for ferries. Wanted
>>>>> for skipping bail, or whatever, is far too sophisticated for these sorts
>>>>> of checks.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And of course dual nationals can confuse the system by using different
>>>>>> passports for out than in.
>>>>>
>>>>> The USA insists that their dual nationals (which they've allowed longer
>>>>> than some people imagine) use the USA passport for inbound travel.
>>>>
>>>> Which would certainly make good sense for the passport holders. They might,
>>>> of course, have registered their other passport with the airline.
>>>
>>> Even if they did that, on arrival in the USA the temptation to use the
>>> shorter queues (and lack of fingerprinting) for Citizens would give the
>>> game away. Even if using the non-citizen queues, the immigration
>>> officials will be looking up their citizenship too.
>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile simply by the proxy of the length of queues, the UK strongly
>>>>> encourages use of the UK passport for arrivals.
>>>>
>>>> US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
>>>> in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.
>>>
>>> <https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/ab
>>> out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>
>>
>
>Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It must add
>to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is it a legal thing
>or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?

I think it's because their face shapes are changing too fast, so the facial recognition system wouldn't work. It may
also be that young children's faces aren't yet distinctive enough. I think the cut-off date used to be older (15?), but
perhaps the machines have got smarter since then.

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t3c3su$vlc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:30 on Fri, 15 Apr
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check for people
>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>> children.
>>>>>
>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>
>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>> they’ve left?
>>>
>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>
>>I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>
>But not necessarily to the immigration department, rather than the
>security department.

Are they separate? It's Border Force in the UK and the DHS in the US.

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:59:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>
>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>
>>I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>arrival.
>
>The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>
They only take a dim view if the journey is to/from the USA, otherwise
either passport can be used. Using different passports to enter/leave
can cause bother (legal or practical) in many countries.

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 08:20:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>
>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>> arrival.
>>
>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>
>There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>entry into the US.
>
The USA requires USA passport holders (single or multiple nationality)
to use their USA passport to enter or leave the USA :-
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html
[tinyurl.com/46vppjkp]

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 08:20:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>> arrival.
>>>
>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>
>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>> entry into the US.
>>
> The USA requires USA passport holders (single or multiple nationality)
> to use their USA passport to enter or leave the USA :-
> https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html
> [tinyurl.com/46vppjkp]
>

Yes, but does it matter if they're registered with the airline with, and
depart the UK showing, their UK passport?

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 21:54:31 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 08:20:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>> arrival.
>>>>
>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>
>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>> entry into the US.
>>>
>> The USA requires USA passport holders (single or multiple nationality)
>> to use their USA passport to enter or leave the USA :-
>> https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html
>> [tinyurl.com/46vppjkp]
>>
>
>Yes, but does it matter if they're registered with the airline with, and
>depart the UK showing, their UK passport?
>
I would suspect it does as the person recorded by the airline will
only match by name with the person producing a USA passport at the
other end.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 21:54:31 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 08:20:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>
>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>
>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>
>>> The USA requires USA passport holders (single or multiple nationality)
>>> to use their USA passport to enter or leave the USA :-
>>> https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html
>>> [tinyurl.com/46vppjkp]
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but does it matter if they're registered with the airline with, and
>> depart the UK showing, their UK passport?
>>
> I would suspect it does as the person recorded by the airline will
> only match by name with the person producing a USA passport at the
> other end.
>

I'm curious to know what actually happens. I'm sure this must occur all the
time, but don't know if the US authorities object. I'd suspect not.

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 23:45:55 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 21:54:31 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 08:20:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The airline tells
>>>>>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines reject it as
>>>>>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>>
>>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>>> entry into the US.
>>>>>
>>>> The USA requires USA passport holders (single or multiple nationality)
>>>> to use their USA passport to enter or leave the USA :-
>>>> https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html
>>>> [tinyurl.com/46vppjkp]
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but does it matter if they're registered with the airline with, and
>>> depart the UK showing, their UK passport?
>>>
>> I would suspect it does as the person recorded by the airline will
>> only match by name with the person producing a USA passport at the
>> other end.
>>
>
>I'm curious to know what actually happens. I'm sure this must occur all the
>time, but don't know if the US authorities object. I'd suspect not.
>
Their web page seems to imply it is important and there have been
plenty of past newspaper reports of their immigration people being
picky if someone doesn't get their documentation correct, often when
there is a record of a person arriving in the USA but no exact match
of someone leaving as will occur when the passports don't match.

In message <lelm5hda1megrg6k9inebcb1pq37fol02c@4ax.com>, at 00:54:57 on
Sun, 17 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>>> The USA requires USA passport holders (single or multiple nationality)
>>>>> to use their USA passport to enter or leave the USA :-
>>>>> https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-
>>>>>Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html
>>>>> [tinyurl.com/46vppjkp]
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but does it matter if they're registered with the airline with, and
>>>> depart the UK showing, their UK passport?
>>>>
>>> I would suspect it does as the person recorded by the airline will
>>> only match by name with the person producing a USA passport at the
>>> other end.
>>
>>I'm curious to know what actually happens. I'm sure this must occur all the
>>time, but don't know if the US authorities object. I'd suspect not.
>>
>Their web page seems to imply it is important

It's part of the USA culture of "them and us", where they'd regard it as
insanely unpatriotic for a citizen to attempt to use anything but their
US passport to enter the country.

>and there have been plenty of past newspaper reports of their
>immigration people being picky if someone doesn't get their
>documentation correct, often when there is a record of a person
>arriving in the USA but no exact match of someone leaving as will occur
>when the passports don't match.

Such issues don't affect US citizens, because they aren't required to
notify the authorities when leaving the country, and when they re-enter
on their US passport it'll be "welcome home".
--
Roland Perry

In message <uubm5hd6jdfu4iao25nloil06bgtomtfrj@4ax.com>, at 22:28:45 on
Sat, 16 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:59:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>airline tells
>>>>> the border authorities in the destination country the list of passports
>>>>> that will be arriving on a flight, but if a dual national chooses to use a
>>>>> different (unexpected) passport on arrival, would the machines
>>>>>reject it as
>>>>> they weren't expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's
>>>>> passport anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>>>>>
>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>
>>>I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>arrival.
>>
>>The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>
>They only take a dim view if the journey is to/from the USA,

Those are the only flights with such checks.

>otherwise either passport can be used. Using different passports to
>enter/leave can cause bother (legal or practical) in many countries.

Even the characteristically extra-territorial US government can't
preside over the travelling arrangement of a person between two other
third countries (unless one is somewhere like Syria, where it would
cause difficulties when the person later wanted to enter the USA).

Although sometimes they tie themselves in knots - a friend who used to
be in their military tells me that he always had to travel with two sets
of clothes in his carry-on, because there were some countries where his
bosses insisted he MUST wear his uniform when transiting, and others
where he MUST NOT.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3e34g$bbo$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:44 on Sat, 16 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>airline tells the border authorities in the destination country
>>>>>>>the list of passports that will be arriving on a flight, but if
>>>>>>>a dual national chooses to use a different (unexpected) passport
>>>>>>>on arrival, would the machines reject it as they weren't
>>>>>>>expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's passport
>>>>>>>anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?

>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>> arrival.
>>>>
>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>
>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>> entry into the US.
>>
>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>
>No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>the US.

Yes, we know you've reported that. I think the closest we got was
perhaps it being "a thing" with US-based airlines, which of course
loyal US citizens are more likely to patronise. (Not least because they
are probably on its FF programme due to domestic travel).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3e34h$bbo$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:45 on Sat, 16 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> US and UK citizens can both use the same UK ePassport machines, so they're
>>> in the same (generally short) queue on arrival in the UK.
>>
>> <https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/ab
>> out/performance/border-force/2022/Mar22_Immigration_performance.pdf>
>
>Unlike you, I actually use airports,

Oh dear, here we go again. As it happens I was one of the original
subscribers to the UK's Iris-scanning gates. Which turned out to be
far more wobbly than advertised.

>and know which passport holders can use the ePassport gates.

Perhaps you can therefore explain why the problem which started this
sub-thread arose.

>Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people who can't (or choose
>not to) use the machines.

Perhaps you can point out the part of their methodology which ring
fences those statistic to just the manual queues. Last time I was at
an airport with ePassport gates, there was a queue there too (and of
course the spill-over queue for people rejected).

But cynically, if there's no little or no queue, including those
passengers in the stats will make it look like the airport is performing
better.
--
Roland Perry

In message <84gl5htg716h069hoc2vr2a3l4orshvvgu@4ax.com>, at 14:12:02 on
Sat, 16 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t3c3su$vlc$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:30 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3c0sl$7hp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:53:09 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/04/2022 15:12, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:34 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:57:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> electronic gates all working.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Story on You & Yours (Radio 4) on Tuesday about a woman who came
>>>>>>>>> throught the electronic gates at Heathrow with her old maroon passport
>>>>>>>>> but they didn't work for her teenage daughters with new blue ones. (I
>>>>>>>>> couldn't understand why her daughters had problems with being asked
>>>>>>>>> where they had come from and where they were going by officials before
>>>>>>>>> they were allowed in.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> New passports and teenage females might have triggered a check
>>>>>>>>for people
>>>>>>>> smuggling/forced marriage etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 'problem' was getting them through the system because the
>>>>>>> electronic gates couldn't handle their passports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to visit France with a group of friends with but because two
>>>>>> particular children had to be kept apart I usually only took most of the
>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what always struck me was that outbound the UK Border Control didn't
>>>>>> care about the children I had with me and I could have been taking them
>>>>>> out of country for nefarious purposes such as FGM or arranged marriages.
>>>>>> The return was a different matter and we had to make sure that the
>>>>>> parents were behind me in the car queue as control was always concerned
>>>>>> that I might be trafficking them into the UK. My thoughts about this
>>>>>> lack of diligence outbound are unprintable here.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don’t directly do outbound passport checks do we? Which leads me to
>>>>> wonder how foreigners with visas that allow them into this country prove
>>>>> they’ve left?
>>>>
>>>> TPTB have access to the airline manifests, if they really care enough.
>>>
>>>I think it's more pro-active than that, both here and the US. The airlines
>>>automatically send the API data to the local border authorities.
>>
>>But not necessarily to the immigration department, rather than the
>>security department.
>
>Are they separate? It's Border Force in the UK and the DHS in the US.

I don't think you'll find that Border Force or DHS is in the business of
issuing immigration visas (and hence checking if a person presenting
themselves for travel is perhaps a previously-failed applicant).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>
>Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It must add
>to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is it a legal thing
>or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?

It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
guardians etc) with them.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>
>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It must add
>> to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is it a legal thing
>> or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>
> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
> guardians etc) with them.

I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
effective for under 12s.

https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates

In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>
>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>
>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>> guardians etc) with them.
>
>I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>effective for under 12s.
>
>https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates

Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
"13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>
>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>
>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>
>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>> effective for under 12s.
>>
>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>
> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.

I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
various civil liberties infringements.

On 17/04/2022 08:40, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for
>>> people
>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>
>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>> must add
>> to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is it a legal
>> thing
>> or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>
> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
> guardians etc) with them.

Why would an unaccompanied minor have parents or guardians with them.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 17/04/2022 08:40, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for
>>>> people
>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>
>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>> must add
>>> to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is it a legal
>>> thing
>>> or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>
>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>> guardians etc) with them.
>
> Why would an unaccompanied minor have parents or guardians with them.
>

Depends if they are officially or unofficially unaccompanied.

In message <t3gl5l$v6p$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:03:49 on Sun, 17 Apr
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 17/04/2022 08:40, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport
>>>>holders can use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual
>>>>lines, for people who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>
>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?

>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>guardians etc) with them.
>
>Why would an unaccompanied minor have parents or guardians with them.

They wouldn't, and hence aren't UMs. The issue would be checking for
minors who weren't accompanied (and might therefore need safeguarding).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t3gkvq$jn$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:42 on Sun, 17 Apr 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>
>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>
>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial
>>>recognition isn’t
>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>
>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>
>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>
>I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
>finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
>various civil liberties infringements.

Passport biometric is set by International agreement, and needs to be
consistent.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3e34g$bbo$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:44 on Sat, 16 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3du89$bfj$4@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:25 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t3cl1t$1at$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:17 on Fri, 15 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've often wondered if that causes problems on arrival? The
>>>>>>>> airline tells the border authorities in the destination country
>>>>>>>> the list of passports that will be arriving on a flight, but if
>>>>>>>> a dual national chooses to use a different (unexpected) passport
>>>>>>>> on arrival, would the machines reject it as they weren't
>>>>>>>> expecting it? Perhaps they'd accept a local citizen's passport
>>>>>>>> anyway, but not necessarily one from a different country?
>
>>>>>>> I know what happens there. My friend has Irish and UK passports. She
>>>>>>> uses her Irish passport for all border crossing except for UK arrivals.
>>>>>>> Passport Control have never batted an eyelid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wouldn't have expected a problem at UK arrivals whichever passport she
>>>>>> used. I was thinking more of things like UK-USA, flying to the US having
>>>>>> booked with a UK passport but using the faster US passports queue on
>>>>>> arrival.
>>>>>
>>>>> The US authorities would take a dim view of their dual citizens going
>>>>> through departure checks at UK airports unless using their US passport.
>>>>
>>>> There aren't any, apart from the airline check-in, and I don't know if it
>>>> matters which passport they show, as long as it's one that would allow them
>>>> entry into the US.
>>>
>>> Ah yes, the famous "I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist" US
>>> pre-screening to let you into the queue for check-in. Where you get the
>>> sticker on the back of the passport.
>>
>> No such thing in my experience, which may be different to yours. I have
>> never had a US pre-screening before any of my large number of flights to
>> the US.
>
> Yes, we know you've reported that. I think the closest we got was
> perhaps it being "a thing" with US-based airlines,

Yes, that's what we concluded last time this came up: it seems only US
carriers did this. BA and Virgin certainly didn't. I never fly on US
carriers if I can help it, so never encountered this additional check (I
doubt that it happens even on US airlines in the modern era).

> which of course
> loyal US citizens are more likely to patronise. (Not least because they
> are probably on its FF programme due to domestic travel).

Not really. All the trans-Atlantic airlines are members of the three major
alliances, so their FF loyalties extend to foreign airlines in the same
alliance.

But US government staff on official trips are supposed to fly on US
airlines if possible. I don't know how strictly this is enforced. For
example, is it enough to book a US airline flight number, knowing very well
that it's actually a code-share with a superior European or Asian airline?

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3ghl9$brm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:53 on Sun, 17 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3e4bf$jch$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:31 on Sat, 16 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> Unlike you, I actually use airports, and know which passport holders can
>>>>>> use the ePassport gates. Those ststs are for the manual lines, for people
>>>>>> who can't (or choose not to) use the machines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any idea why children (under 12 I think) can’t use the e-gates? It
>>>>> must add to parental stress to have to wait in the long queues. Is
>>>>> it a legal thing or a technology problem (features changing too fast?)?
>>>>
>>>> It could easily be an issue with UMs [where 12 is usually the magic
>>>> age], in that they want to check minors actually have parents (or
>>>> guardians etc) with them.
>>>
>>> I’ve just found an 2016 ABTA web page that claims facial recognition isn’t
>>> effective for under 12s.
>>>
>>> https://www.abta.com/news/epassport-gates
>>
>> Not surprising, but it's a big co-incidence. Why "12" and not "11" or
>> "13". In any event, all they'd be trying to stop from a technology point
>> of view is false negatives (so simply join the manual queue). I expect a
>> 12yr old with a fresh passport would be recognisable.
>
> I wonder why children (and perhaps adults) don’t have the option of using a
> finger print? I say option, to spike the guns of those who want to claim
> various civil liberties infringements.

The passports don't include fingerprints.