On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>
>>>
>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>
> The distinction is probably only temporary.

That's probably true.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>
>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>
> Hopefully!

Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>
>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>
>> Hopefully!
>
>Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….

Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.

Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is everywhere
the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.

On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>
>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>
>>> Hopefully!
>>
>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>
> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>
> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is everywhere
> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.

Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.

Robin

On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling
>>>>>>> Britain
>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>
>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully!
>>>
>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>
>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>
>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>> everywhere
>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>
> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>

Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
mean the locals just got up and left.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>everywhere
>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>
>Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.

Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
island ergo its natives are British.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:35:57 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling
>>>>>>>> Britain
>>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>
>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>>
>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>
>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>> everywhere
>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>
>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>
>
>Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>mean the locals just got up and left.

Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>
>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>
>> Hopefully!
>
>Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….

Mebbe a kick in the londonderriere would convince 'em?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tuetm0$1tksf$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:08 on Fri, 10 Mar
> 2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:tudhog$1k0ke$5@dont-email.me...
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> It's interesting that US spelling has prevailed in the UK for
>>>> computer-related words such as "program" and "disk", but we still use our
>>>> own spelling for "colour" as in "16-million-colour graphics mode". I
>>>> think
>>>> "disk" is regarded as a less US-specific spelling than "program":
>>>> I've seen
>>>> some UK car-related information referring to "disk brakes".
>>>
>>> Program and programme have now acquired different meanings here: we have
>>> computer programs but TV programmes.
>>
>> True. And we've never adopted the American habit of referring to a
>> training course as a program. Just as "college" is further education,
>> after leaving school at 16 or 18, not school itself.
>
> The USA-ians refer to their University as "going to school", or was that
> part of your rather ambiguous statement above?
>
>> Interesting how British and American English have diverged in lots of
>> little ways like that. When I went over to see my sister who was living
>> in Boston for a few years, I know about all the obvious things like
>> faucet/tap, apartment/flat, closet/cupboard. But the one thing that
>> caught me out was when someone asked me how long I was staying in
>> America and I replied "a fortnight" which was met with blank
>> incomprehension: I hadn't realised that the word "fortnight", meaning
>> two weeks, was not as widely used in America.
>
> That's one of a fairly short list that they don't comprehend. Whereas
> things like "rubber" - cf Durex=Sellotape in Australia - simply have an
> unexpected connotation.
>
> I always chuckle when an USA-ian reaches out for a handshake and says
> "Hello, I'm Randy".

“Happy, Darling?” “Ecstatically, Randy!”

Commas are important.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>
>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>
>>> Hopefully!
>>
>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>
> Mebbe a kick in the londonderriere would convince 'em?

That’s why some people call the tune Danny Boy rather than The Derry Air.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>
>
>
> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
> Netherlands 'Holland'.

Funny how the citizens of the USA make the same mistake about the name of
their country.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 11/03/2023 16:54, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:35:57 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling
>>>>>>>>> Britain
>>>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>>>
>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>>
>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>> everywhere
>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>
>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>
>>
>> Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>> mean the locals just got up and left.
>
> Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>
>

Far too many times.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:16:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>
>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>
>>> Hopefully!
>>
>>Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>
>Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>
>Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is everywhere
>the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>
Unless someone is using the term to describe the area coming under the
rule of a government based in Westminster. Your "British" is not
inevitably derived from the same context being applied by another. The
group of islands could lose that description if anyone ever comes up
with a sensible alternative but there has been a lack of success so
far.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:35:57 +0000
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling
>>>>>>>>> Britain
>>>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>>>
>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>>
>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>> everywhere
>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>
>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>
>>
>>Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>mean the locals just got up and left.
>
>Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>
I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 18:49:15 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>
>>
>>
>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>
>Funny how the citizens of the USA make the same mistake about the name of
>their country.
>
Half[TM] of them probably aren't aware of anything past the next
county.
"About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate
the U.S. on a map."
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/geography-survey-illiteracy
There seems to be a plentiful supply of US-originated material which
bemoans the extent of geographical ignorance.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 02/03/2023 13:32, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 01.03.2023 um 20:30 schrieb Mike Humphrey:
>>> On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 14:56:20 +0000, NY wrote:
>>>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff at
>>>> small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties and
>>>> signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct* tablet to
>>>> the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st century.
>>>
>>> I can't be bothered to go and get my copy of "Red for Danger", but I
>>> think it was quite early that signalling became distinct from the station
>>> duties. As part of the push for interlocking, it was required that all
>>> the signal levers at a station were in the same place. This led to the
>>> classic signal box with the lever frame upstairs, as it would be
>>> difficult to get a full view of the station from platform level.
>>
>> This might be where the situation in UK diverged from mainland Europe.
>> In Germany, it is typical for smallish stations (e.g. Neckargemünd, a
>> simple junction - 4 tracks - with no additional freight facilities) that
>> the signal box is at platform level.
>>
>> Only larger stations with plenty of freight tracks had the need for an
>> 'upstairs' signal box.
>>
>
> There are still a few British signal boxes on platforms, though probably
> not for much longer. eg
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haslemere_signal_box.jpg> will
> go out of service later this year when the Portsmouth Direct line is
> switched to Basingstoke box.
>
>

About 10 years I took my then 14 year old Nephew to visit the Chalk pits
museum at Amberley and the signaller noticing his interest as he peered
through the window invited us into the small “box” which was/is integrated
far more into the station than most even being under the canopy.
< https://www.flickr.com/photos/bods/4413532177>

Signalman gave the nephew a good explanation of what did what and when it
was done
and then supervised him while he pulled the relevant levers to clear a
train through.
The interior was quite compact.
< https://www.flickr.com/photos/67716429@N06/6786477978>

GH

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:35:57 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling
>>>>>>>>>> Britain
>>>>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>>>>
>>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>>>
>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>> everywhere
>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>
>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>> mean the locals just got up and left.
>>
>> Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>
> I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.

How long do you have to live somewhere before you’re a local rather than an
immigrant?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 12/03/2023 09:41, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:35:57 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling
>>>>>>>>>>> Britain
>>>>>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>>>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>>>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>>>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>> mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>
>>> Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>
>> I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>
> How long do you have to live somewhere before you’re a local rather than an
> immigrant?
>

In London, about 15-20 minutes. In Little Piddling on the Green, around
15-20 generations.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <tuk6nt$30rlk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:41:17 on Sun, 12 Mar
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:35:57 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner
>>>>>>>>>>> Britain 'England' and then go on themselves to call the
>>>>>>>>>>>USA 'America' or the Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be
>>>>>>>British….
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>>>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>>>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>>>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles
>>>>>> everywhere the native britons used to live which includes the
>>>>>>island of ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>> mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>
>>> Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>
>> I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>
>How long do you have to live somewhere before you’re a local rather than an
>immigrant?

It used to be that one had to be second generation *even if British*
when moving somewhere to be considered a local.

AKA: "Did you go to the local primary school".

Three years does it in most places now (whatever age and wherever you've
come from).

--
Roland Perry

On 12/03/2023 11:04, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tuk6nt$30rlk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:41:17 on Sun, 12 Mar
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:35:57 +0000
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Britain  'England' and then go on themselves to call the
>>>>>>>>>>>> USA 'America' or the  Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK
>>>>>>>>>>> Britain.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be
>>>>>>>> British….
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went
>>>>>>> independent
>>>>>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or
>>>>>>> not as
>>>>>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little
>>>>>>> britain which
>>>>>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles
>>>>>>>  everywhere  the native britons used to live which includes the
>>>>>>> island of ireland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want
>>>>>> to get
>>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually
>>>>>> British
>>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>>> mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>>
>>> I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>>
>> How long do you have to live somewhere before you’re a local rather
>> than an
>> immigrant?
>
> It used to be that one had to be second generation *even if British*
> when moving somewhere to be considered a local.
>
> AKA: "Did you go to the local primary school".
>
> Three years does it in most places now (whatever age and wherever you've
> come from).
>

Nope, been here almost 20 years and still a "soothmoother" (someone who
comes to Shetland on the ferry through the south mouth of Lerwick Harbour).

--
Colin

On 12/03/2023 09:41, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:35:57 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 11/03/2023 16:28, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling
>>>>>>>>>>> Britain
>>>>>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>>>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>>>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>>>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>> mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>
>>> Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>
>> I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>
> How long do you have to live somewhere before you’re a local rather than an
> immigrant?

In Wales never.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:33:34 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:16:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>
>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully!
>>>
>>>Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>
>>Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>
>>Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is everywhere
>
>>the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>
>Unless someone is using the term to describe the area coming under the
>rule of a government based in Westminster. Your "British" is not
>inevitably derived from the same context being applied by another. The
>group of islands could lose that description if anyone ever comes up
>with a sensible alternative but there has been a lack of success so
>far.

I'm sure the Iberian Peninsula could be renamed too.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:35:18 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>>>Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>mean the locals just got up and left.
>>
>>Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>
>I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.

Really? Visit any high street in an arc from wood green through tottenham
to walthamstow and have a listen to how often you hear english spoken. And if
you do it'll probably be in a foreign accent and when the accent is british
it'll probably be from an afro caribbean or asian. The majority of white
londoners legged it long ago north, east and west.

On 12/03/2023 16:07, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:33:34 +0000
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:16:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:46:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/03/2023 14:47, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:13:04 +0000, Coffee
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/03/2023 13:19, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 08/03/2023 17:06, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I don't think America had been invented then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Always amusing when a Scot has a moan about a foreigner calling Britain
>>>>>>>> 'England' and then go on themselves to call the USA 'America' or the
>>>>>>>> Netherlands 'Holland'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I get annoyed when people who should know better call the UK Britain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The distinction is probably only temporary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully!
>>>>
>>>> Depends on the desire of those not in Britain wanting to be British….
>>>
>>> Britain is geographical, not political. Even if scotland went independent
>>> its inhabitants would still be british whether they liked it or not as
>>> great britain is this island we're on. As opposed to little britain which
>>> is Brittany across the channel contrary to the BBC series.
>>>
>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is everywhere
>>
>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>
>> Unless someone is using the term to describe the area coming under the
>> rule of a government based in Westminster. Your "British" is not
>> inevitably derived from the same context being applied by another. The
>> group of islands could lose that description if anyone ever comes up
>> with a sensible alternative but there has been a lack of success so
>> far.
>
> I'm sure the Iberian Peninsula could be renamed too.

That would reduce ambiguity.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Iberia>

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 02/03/2023 13:32, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 01.03.2023 um 20:30 schrieb Mike Humphrey:
>>>> On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 14:56:20 +0000, NY wrote:
>>>>> I'm sure in the 1800s and 1900s it was quite common for station staff at
>>>>> small stations to have to divide their time between platform duties and
>>>>> signalling duties (eg collecting and returning the *correct* tablet to
>>>>> the driver). But it's not something you expect in the 21st century.
>>>>
>>>> I can't be bothered to go and get my copy of "Red for Danger", but I
>>>> think it was quite early that signalling became distinct from the station
>>>> duties. As part of the push for interlocking, it was required that all
>>>> the signal levers at a station were in the same place. This led to the
>>>> classic signal box with the lever frame upstairs, as it would be
>>>> difficult to get a full view of the station from platform level.
>>>
>>> This might be where the situation in UK diverged from mainland Europe.
>>> In Germany, it is typical for smallish stations (e.g. Neckargemünd, a
>>> simple junction - 4 tracks - with no additional freight facilities) that
>>> the signal box is at platform level.
>>>
>>> Only larger stations with plenty of freight tracks had the need for an
>>> 'upstairs' signal box.
>>>
>>
>> There are still a few British signal boxes on platforms, though probably
>> not for much longer. eg
>> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haslemere_signal_box.jpg> will
>> go out of service later this year when the Portsmouth Direct line is
>> switched to Basingstoke box.
>>
>>
>
>
> About 10 years I took my then 14 year old Nephew to visit the Chalk pits
> museum at Amberley and the signaller noticing his interest as he peered
> through the window invited us into the small “box” which was/is integrated
> far more into the station than most even being under the canopy.
> < https://www.flickr.com/photos/bods/4413532177>
>
> Signalman gave the nephew a good explanation of what did what and when it
> was done
> and then supervised him while he pulled the relevant levers to clear a
> train through.
> The interior was quite compact.
> < https://www.flickr.com/photos/67716429@N06/6786477978>

Google Street View from 10 months ago seems to suggest that Helsby Junction
is still there, at least in the flesh. Does it still control anything?
ISTR it being rebuilt; at least at one point the brickwork of the
understory was wildly distorted and the next time I went it wasn’t. It’s
nearly 25 years since I was last there, though.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
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