Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
> >> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
> >> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
> >> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
> >> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
> >> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
> >
> >That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
> >passenger was left-hand running.
>
> Are we sure about that?

Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2-960x600.jpg

Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new national
road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the railway,
and a farm track.

Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south perspective.
For the freight train that would be the usual track.
The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
running.

Theo

In message <0Ab*a4Caz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 13:11:28 on Tue,
7 Mar 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>><theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>> >> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>> >> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>> >>siding?).
>> >> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but
>> >>for some
>> >> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>> >> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>> >
>> >That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>> >passenger was left-hand running.
>>
>> Are we sure about that?
>
>Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
>https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2
>-960x600.jpg
>
>Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new national
>road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the railway,
>and a farm track.
>
>Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south perspective.
>For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>running.

And as I posted in the second message in the thread:

>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384

The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
train heading north on [it's] lefthand track)

With other confirmatory photography linked to soon after.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:30:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <0Ab*a4Caz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 13:11:28 on Tue,
>7 Mar 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>><theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>> >> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>> >> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>> >>siding?).
>>> >> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but
>>> >>for some
>>> >> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>> >> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>> >
>>> >That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>>> >passenger was left-hand running.
>>>
>>> Are we sure about that?
>>
>>Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
>>https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2
>>-960x600.jpg
>>
>>Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new national
>>road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the railway,
>>and a farm track.
>>
>>Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south perspective.
>>For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>running.
>
>And as I posted in the second message in the thread:
>
> >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>
> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
> train heading north on [it's] lefthand track)
>
>With other confirmatory photography linked to soon after.

Have we confirmed which train the 'station master' was controlling? I had originally thought it was the passenger
train, but the more recent report made me think it was actually the freight.

On 07/03/2023 13:11, Theo wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
>>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>
>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>
>> Are we sure about that?
>
> Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
> https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2-960x600.jpg
>
> Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new national
> road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the railway,
> and a farm track.
>
> Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south perspective.
> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
> running.
>

The presence of the motorway overbridges would have hidden the fact that
the trains were on the same track until the last moment before the
collision.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 07/03/2023 14:45, Recliner wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:30:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <0Ab*a4Caz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 13:11:28 on Tue,
>> 7 Mar 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>>>> siding?).
>>>>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but
>>>>>> for some
>>>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>>>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>>>
>>>> Are we sure about that?
>>>
>>> Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2
>>> -960x600.jpg
>>>
>>> Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new national
>>> road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the railway,
>>> and a farm track.
>>>
>>> Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south perspective.
>>> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>> running.
>>
>> And as I posted in the second message in the thread:
>>
>> >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>
>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>> train heading north on [it's] lefthand track)
>>
>> With other confirmatory photography linked to soon after.
>
> Have we confirmed which train the 'station master' was controlling? I had originally thought it was the passenger
> train, but the more recent report made me think it was actually the freight.

Logically it would be the passenger as that was the one running wrong
line, so an active decision was taken to switch it to that.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 15:47:19 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 07/03/2023 14:45, Recliner wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:30:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <0Ab*a4Caz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 13:11:28 on Tue,
>>> 7 Mar 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>>>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>>>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>>>>> siding?).
>>>>>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but
>>>>>>> for some
>>>>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>>>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>>>>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are we sure about that?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2
>>>> -960x600.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new national
>>>> road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the railway,
>>>> and a farm track.
>>>>
>>>> Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south perspective.
>>>> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>>> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>>> running.
>>>
>>> And as I posted in the second message in the thread:
>>>
>>> >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>
>>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>>> train heading north on [it's] lefthand track)
>>>
>>> With other confirmatory photography linked to soon after.
>>
>> Have we confirmed which train the 'station master' was controlling? I had originally thought it was the passenger
>> train, but the more recent report made me think it was actually the freight.
>
>Logically it would be the passenger as that was the one running wrong
>line, so an active decision was taken to switch it to that.

Yes, that's what I'd assumed earlier, but this latest report says:

The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was charged with
multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.

In message <5eje0ipiv0eikpvngq28ljscn4j8ibm1jj@4ax.com>, at 14:45:30 on
Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:30:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <0Ab*a4Caz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 13:11:28 on Tue,
>>7 Mar 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>><theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>>> >> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched
>>>> >>wrong line for
>>>> >> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>> >>siding?).
>>>> >> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but
>>>> >>for some
>>>> >> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>>> >> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>> >
>>>> >That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>>>> >passenger was left-hand running.
>>>>
>>>> Are we sure about that?
>>>
>>>Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
>>>https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2
>>>-960x600.jpg
>>>
>>>Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new national
>>>road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the railway,
>>>and a farm track.
>>>
>>>Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south perspective.
>>>For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>>The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>>running.
>>
>>And as I posted in the second message in the thread:
>>
>> >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>
>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>> train heading north on [it's] lefthand track)
>>
>>With other confirmatory photography linked to soon after.
>
>Have we confirmed which train the 'station master' was controlling? I
>had originally thought it was the passenger train, but the more recent
>report made me think it was actually the freight.

The fog of war (and possibly dodgy translations from the Greek)
continue.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tu7m4p$f2vo$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:25 on Tue, 7 Mar
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 07/03/2023 13:11, Theo wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>><theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>>>siding?).
>>>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track,
>>>>>but for some
>>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>>
>>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>>
>>> Are we sure about that?

>> Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
>>https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-
>>2-960x600.jpg Geographical context, left to right at the bottom
>>that's the new national road (motorway), the old national road
>>(single carriageway), the railway, and a farm track.

>> Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south
>>perspective.
>> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>> running.
>
>The presence of the motorway overbridges would have hidden the fact
>that the trains were on the same track until the last moment before the
>collision.

Only hidden from the drivers (who would have needed a mile to brake,
anyway). Although a somewhat rudimentary signaling system hid it from
the stationmaster for 12minutes(qv).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tu71r6$c4ds$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:58 on Tue, 7 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tu4bho$1la5f$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:25:12 on Mon, 6 Mar
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Greek train crash official charged and taken into custody
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7105389a-bba7-11ed-b039-425ba6c60d6d
>>>> ?shareToken=e80faa5e78374044042498426a72f445>
>>>>
>>>> A Greek stationmaster accused of causing the country’s deadliest train
>>>> accident has been charged and taken into custody, his lawyer and legal
>>>> officials said.
>>>>
>>>> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>>>> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>>>> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was
>>>> charged with
>>>> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.
>>>
>>> Interesting; this sounds like the error was the person who routed the
>>> freight train, not as I think we've all been assuming the one who routed
>>> the passenger train.
>>>
>>> But that just makes things even odder, because that means *both* trains
>>> were supposed to running on the left, rather than the usual right. Or
>>> are we also assuming incorrectly that on that stretch of line "usual"
>>> was indeed on-the-right?
>>
>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>
> I thought the pictures showed the passenger train running on the left,
> whereas in Greece one might expect the correct side normally to be the
> right.
>
> (It's unfortunate the word "right" has two meanings, we should be
> careful not to be ambiguous in its use).

I had similar thoughts on both counts. The goods train was running on the
right, the passenger train on the left. I don’t know which was correct.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 07/03/2023 16:02, Recliner wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 15:47:19 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 07/03/2023 14:45, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:30:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <0Ab*a4Caz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 13:11:28 on Tue,
>>>> 7 Mar 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>>>>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>>>>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>>>>>> siding?).
>>>>>>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but
>>>>>>>> for some
>>>>>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>>>>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>>>>>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are we sure about that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
>>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2
>>>>> -960x600.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new national
>>>>> road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the railway,
>>>>> and a farm track.
>>>>>
>>>>> Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south perspective.
>>>>> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>>>> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>>>> running.
>>>>
>>>> And as I posted in the second message in the thread:
>>>>
>>>> >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>
>>>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>>>> train heading north on [it's] lefthand track)
>>>>
>>>> With other confirmatory photography linked to soon after.
>>>
>>> Have we confirmed which train the 'station master' was controlling? I had originally thought it was the passenger
>>> train, but the more recent report made me think it was actually the freight.
>>
>> Logically it would be the passenger as that was the one running wrong
>> line, so an active decision was taken to switch it to that.
>
> Yes, that's what I'd assumed earlier, but this latest report says:
>
> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was charged with
> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.

Having dispatched the passenger train wrong line, he should have then
switched the goods train but didn't. Either that or the report is confused.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 07/03/2023 16:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tu7m4p$f2vo$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:25 on Tue, 7 Mar
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 07/03/2023 13:11, Theo wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>  From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station
>>>>>> master' was
>>>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong
>>>>>> line for
>>>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>>>> siding?).
>>>>>>   He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track,
>>>>>> but for some
>>>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express
>>>>>> passenger
>>>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running
>>>>> and the
>>>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>>>
>>>> Are we sure about that?
>
>>>  Yes.  Here's a picture looking south:
>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-
>>> 2-960x600.jpg   Geographical context, left to right at the bottom
>>> that's the new national  road (motorway), the old national road
>>> (single carriageway), the railway,  and a farm track.
>
>>>  Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south
>>> perspective.
>>> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>> running.
>>
>> The presence of the motorway overbridges would have hidden the fact
>> that the trains were on the same track until the last moment before
>> the collision.
>
> Only hidden from the drivers (who would have needed a mile to brake,
> anyway).

Well, yes. If they had been able to see each other from further away,
emergency braking might have made a great difference to the force of the
collision.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 07/03/2023 16:02, Recliner wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 15:47:19 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/03/2023 14:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:30:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <0Ab*a4Caz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 13:11:28 on Tue,
>>>>> 7 Mar 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>>>>>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>>>>>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>>>>>>> siding?).
>>>>>>>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but
>>>>>>>>> for some
>>>>>>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>>>>>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running and the
>>>>>>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are we sure about that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
>>>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2
>>>>>> -960x600.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new national
>>>>>> road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the railway,
>>>>>> and a farm track.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south perspective.
>>>>>> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>>>>> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>>>>> running.
>>>>>
>>>>> And as I posted in the second message in the thread:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>
>>>>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>>>>> train heading north on [it's] lefthand track)
>>>>>
>>>>> With other confirmatory photography linked to soon after.
>>>>
>>>> Have we confirmed which train the 'station master' was controlling? I
>>>> had originally thought it was the passenger
>>>> train, but the more recent report made me think it was actually the freight.
>>>
>>> Logically it would be the passenger as that was the one running wrong
>>> line, so an active decision was taken to switch it to that.
>>
>> Yes, that's what I'd assumed earlier, but this latest report says:
>>
>> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was charged with
>> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.
>
> Having dispatched the passenger train wrong line, he should have then
> switched the goods train but didn't. Either that or the report is confused.

I'm still confused. I wonder how large an area he controlled? Given the
apparently primitive systems in use, I assumed it was quite a small area,
so he'd be unlikely to be in control of both of the trains before the
collided. So, if he was in control of the freight, he wouldn't have had
anything to do with the passenger express (or vice versa). And we've not
been given any reasons for one of the trains being routed wrong-line.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 17:12:29 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 07/03/2023 16:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tu7m4p$f2vo$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:25 on Tue, 7 Mar
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 07/03/2023 13:11, Theo wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>  From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station
>>>>>>> master' was
>>>>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong
>>>>>>> line for
>>>>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>>>>> siding?).
>>>>>>>   He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track,
>>>>>>> but for some
>>>>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express
>>>>>>> passenger
>>>>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running
>>>>>> and the
>>>>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are we sure about that?
>>
>>>>  Yes.  Here's a picture looking south:
>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-
>>>> 2-960x600.jpg   Geographical context, left to right at the bottom
>>>> that's the new national  road (motorway), the old national road
>>>> (single carriageway), the railway,  and a farm track.
>>
>>>>  Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south
>>>> perspective.
>>>> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>>> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>>> running.
>>>
>>> The presence of the motorway overbridges would have hidden the fact
>>> that the trains were on the same track until the last moment before
>>> the collision.
>>
>> Only hidden from the drivers (who would have needed a mile to brake,
>> anyway).
>
>Well, yes. If they had been able to see each other from further away,
>emergency braking might have made a great difference to the force of the
>collision.

Even on a long, straight stretch would it be possible for eyes to
differentiate that oncoming headlights at night (as it was apparently)
were on the same track?

On 07/03/2023 17:44, Nobody wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 17:12:29 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 07/03/2023 16:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tu7m4p$f2vo$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:25 on Tue, 7 Mar
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 07/03/2023 13:11, Theo wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>  From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station
>>>>>>>> master' was
>>>>>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong
>>>>>>>> line for
>>>>>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>>>>>> siding?).
>>>>>>>>   He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track,
>>>>>>>> but for some
>>>>>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express
>>>>>>>> passenger
>>>>>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand running
>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are we sure about that?
>>>
>>>>>  Yes.  Here's a picture looking south:
>>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-
>>>>> 2-960x600.jpg   Geographical context, left to right at the bottom
>>>>> that's the new national  road (motorway), the old national road
>>>>> (single carriageway), the railway,  and a farm track.
>>>
>>>>>  Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south
>>>>> perspective.
>>>>> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>>>> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>>>> running.
>>>>
>>>> The presence of the motorway overbridges would have hidden the fact
>>>> that the trains were on the same track until the last moment before
>>>> the collision.
>>>
>>> Only hidden from the drivers (who would have needed a mile to brake,
>>> anyway).
>>
>> Well, yes. If they had been able to see each other from further away,
>> emergency braking might have made a great difference to the force of the
>> collision.
>
> Even on a long, straight stretch would it be possible for eyes to
> differentiate that oncoming headlights at night (as it was apparently)
> were on the same track?

Anna could confirm (or deny) but, assuming something like British levels
of route knowledge, there'd probably be tell tale clues that would
reveal the problem. From personal experience at places like Woking and
Basingstoke I can pick up whether the approaching train is on the fast
or slow lines at night. And that's being stood on the platform.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 07/03/2023 16:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tu71r6$c4ds$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:58 on Tue, 7 Mar
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tu4bho$1la5f$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:25:12 on Mon, 6 Mar
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Greek train crash official charged and taken into custody
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7105389a-bba7-11ed-b039-425ba6c60d6d
>>>>> ?shareToken=e80faa5e78374044042498426a72f445>
>>>>>
>>>>> A Greek stationmaster accused of causing the country’s deadliest train
>>>>> accident has been charged and taken into custody, his lawyer and legal
>>>>> officials said.
>>>>>
>>>>> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>>>>> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>>>>> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was
>>>>> charged with
>>>>> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting; this sounds like the error was the person who routed the
>>>> freight train, not as I think we've all been assuming the one who routed
>>>> the passenger train.
>>>>
>>>> But that just makes things even odder, because that means *both* trains
>>>> were supposed to running on the left, rather than the usual right. Or
>>>> are we also assuming incorrectly that on that stretch of line "usual"
>>>> was indeed on-the-right?
>>>
>>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>
>> I thought the pictures showed the passenger train running on the left,
>> whereas in Greece one might expect the correct side normally to be the
>> right.
>>
>> (It's unfortunate the word "right" has two meanings, we should be
>> careful not to be ambiguous in its use).
>
> I had similar thoughts on both counts. The goods train was running on the
> right, the passenger train on the left. I don’t know which was correct.

Both are correct or both are incorrect!

I think it would be very helpful if we banned the use of left and right
in this discussion.

"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tu7tva$gdr4$2@dont-email.me...

>> Even on a long, straight stretch would it be possible for eyes to
>> differentiate that oncoming headlights at night (as it was apparently)
>> were on the same track?
>
> Anna could confirm (or deny) but, assuming something like British levels
> of route knowledge, there'd probably be tell tale clues that would reveal
> the problem. From personal experience at places like Woking and
> Basingstoke I can pick up whether the approaching train is on the fast or
> slow lines at night. And that's being stood on the platform.

I'm impressed. I don't think I could do it without being able to see fixed
objects for comparison until the train was very close, if the fast and slow
lines are adjacent.

When driving (a car) at night, it's not always possible to tell whether an
oncoming car is on the correct or wrong side of the road: occasionally I've
erred on the side of caution and (almost) panic-braked, thinking that a car
on the correct side looks as if it's on the wrong side (ie a right-side
failure).

During the day it's a lot easier because you can see the car/train in
relation to road verges/white lines (road), or signalling/electrification
masts and perhaps the tracks themselves (railway), even at a fair distance.

On 07/03/2023 20:27, NY wrote:
> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:tu7tva$gdr4$2@dont-email.me...
>
>>> Even on a long, straight stretch would it be possible for eyes to
>>> differentiate that oncoming headlights at night (as it was apparently)
>>> were on the same track?
>>
>> Anna could confirm (or deny) but, assuming something like British
>> levels of route knowledge, there'd probably be tell tale clues that
>> would reveal the problem. From personal experience at places like
>> Woking and Basingstoke I can pick up whether the approaching train is
>> on the fast or slow lines at night. And that's being stood on the
>> platform.
>
> I'm impressed. I don't think I could do it without being able to see
> fixed objects for comparison until the train was very close, if the fast
> and slow lines are adjacent.

Slightly cheating as both stations are in built-up areas and there are
fixed lights: houses, street-lights and so on, to compare them to. In
this case there is the motorway and other roads to compare with.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:tu7tva$gdr4$2@dont-email.me...
>
>>> Even on a long, straight stretch would it be possible for eyes to
>>> differentiate that oncoming headlights at night (as it was apparently)
>>> were on the same track?
>>
>> Anna could confirm (or deny) but, assuming something like British levels
>> of route knowledge, there'd probably be tell tale clues that would reveal
>> the problem. From personal experience at places like Woking and
>> Basingstoke I can pick up whether the approaching train is on the fast or
>> slow lines at night. And that's being stood on the platform.
>
> I'm impressed. I don't think I could do it without being able to see fixed
> objects for comparison until the train was very close, if the fast and slow
> lines are adjacent.
>
> When driving (a car) at night, it's not always possible to tell whether an
> oncoming car is on the correct or wrong side of the road: occasionally I've
> erred on the side of caution and (almost) panic-braked, thinking that a car
> on the correct side looks as if it's on the wrong side (ie a right-side
> failure).
>
> During the day it's a lot easier because you can see the car/train in
> relation to road verges/white lines (road), or signalling/electrification
> masts and perhaps the tracks themselves (railway), even at a fair distance.
>

I'd have thought it would be easier at night on rail tracks, as you would
see the headlights of the opposing train reflected on the rails. But that
would only work on dead straight tracks.

On 07/03/2023 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tu71r6$c4ds$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:58 on Tue, 7 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tu4bho$1la5f$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:25:12 on Mon, 6 Mar
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Greek train crash official charged and taken into custody
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7105389a-bba7-11ed-b039-425ba6c60d6d
>>>> ?shareToken=e80faa5e78374044042498426a72f445>
>>>>
>>>> A Greek stationmaster accused of causing the country’s deadliest train
>>>> accident has been charged and taken into custody, his lawyer and legal
>>>> officials said.
>>>>
>>>> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>>>> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>>>> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was
>>>>charged with
>>>> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.
>>>
>>> Interesting; this sounds like the error was the person who routed the
>>> freight train, not as I think we've all been assuming the one who routed
>>> the passenger train.
>>>
>>> But that just makes things even odder, because that means *both* trains
>>> were supposed to running on the left, rather than the usual right. Or
>>> are we also assuming incorrectly that on that stretch of line "usual"
>>> was indeed on-the-right?
>>
>>From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
>>unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>
> I thought the pictures showed the passenger train running on the left,
> whereas in Greece one might expect the correct side normally to be the
> right.
>
> (It's unfortunate the word "right" has two meanings, we should be
> careful not to be ambiguous in its use).

I think there are three potential meanings in this context:
- Right hand side verses left hand side,
- Right line versus wrong line (although I'm not sure that "right line" is
actually correct British railway usage),
- Correct versus incorrect.

In the UK the wrong line is usually on the right hand side. A SPAD or faulty
set of points might result in a train on an incorrect line, which could be
the right line on the left hand side during engineering works.

As we are frequently reminded, trains from Ely to Norwich often correctly
depart on the wrong line down the up line on the right hand side.

Fury over train crash could delay Greek election

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be487acc-bcd3-11ed-b386-2854db7a4e6a?shareToken=80b18b51baed636397db750369ec9922

To date, only the stationmaster, 59, who cannot be named under Greek law,
has been charged with negligent homicide. He was jailed over the weekend.

His lawyer, Stephanos Pantzartzidis, said that low staffing levels on the
night of the accident would also be the subject of the criminal
investigation. “The man was constantly at his post. In a hellish timespan
of about 20 minutes he was in charge of [rail] security for all of central
Greece,” Pantzartzidis said.

The scope of the investigation has been broadened to determine who was
responsible for sweeping security lapses and whether the stationmaster, who
had been on the job for just three days and had limited experience, was
assigned to the role by the New Democracy party or other politicians.

Athens has said that it will seek additional European Union funding for
urgent safety upgrades to its rail network. Trade unions say that the
network has been severely weakened by cost-cutting and underinvestment, a
casualty of the debilitating debt crisis in Greece from 2010 to 2018.

On 07/03/2023 21:17, Roger Lynn wrote:
> On 07/03/2023 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tu71r6$c4ds$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:58 on Tue, 7 Mar
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tu4bho$1la5f$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:25:12 on Mon, 6 Mar
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Greek train crash official charged and taken into custody
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7105389a-bba7-11ed-b039-425ba6c60d6d
>>>>> ?shareToken=e80faa5e78374044042498426a72f445>
>>>>>
>>>>> A Greek stationmaster accused of causing the country’s deadliest train
>>>>> accident has been charged and taken into custody, his lawyer and legal
>>>>> officials said.
>>>>>
>>>>> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>>>>> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>>>>> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was
>>>>> charged with
>>>>> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting; this sounds like the error was the person who routed the
>>>> freight train, not as I think we've all been assuming the one who
>>>> routed
>>>> the passenger train.
>>>>
>>>> But that just makes things even odder, because that means *both* trains
>>>> were supposed to running on the left, rather than the usual right. Or
>>>> are we also assuming incorrectly that on that stretch of line "usual"
>>>> was indeed on-the-right?
>>>
>>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong
>>> line for
>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>> siding?).
>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for
>>> some
>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>
>> I thought the pictures showed the passenger train running on the left,
>> whereas in Greece one might expect the correct side normally to be the
>> right.
>>
>> (It's unfortunate the word "right" has two meanings, we should be
>> careful not to be ambiguous in its use).
>
> I think there are three potential meanings in this context:
> - Right hand side verses left hand side,
> - Right line versus wrong line (although I'm not sure that "right line" is
>     actually correct British railway usage),
> - Correct versus incorrect.
>
> In the UK the wrong line is usually on the right hand side. A SPAD or
> faulty set of points might result in a train on an incorrect line, which
> could be the right line on the left hand side during engineering works.
>
> As we are frequently reminded, trains from Ely to Norwich often
> correctly depart on the wrong line down the up line on the right hand side.

I really hope "right line" isn't used or, if it must be used, that there
is a very clear understanding of whether it means correct or starboard.

In message <d8mkdj-49s.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 21:17:33 on Tue, 7
Mar 2023, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>On 07/03/2023 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tu71r6$c4ds$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:58 on Tue, 7 Mar
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tu4bho$1la5f$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:25:12 on Mon, 6 Mar
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Greek train crash official charged and taken into custody
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7105389a-bba7-11ed-b039-425ba6c60d6d
>>>>> ?shareToken=e80faa5e78374044042498426a72f445>
>>>>>
>>>>> A Greek stationmaster accused of causing the country’s deadliest train
>>>>> accident has been charged and taken into custody, his lawyer and legal
>>>>> officials said.
>>>>>
>>>>> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>>>>> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>>>>> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was
>>>>>charged with
>>>>> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting; this sounds like the error was the person who routed the
>>>> freight train, not as I think we've all been assuming the one who routed
>>>> the passenger train.
>>>>
>>>> But that just makes things even odder, because that means *both* trains
>>>> were supposed to running on the left, rather than the usual right. Or
>>>> are we also assuming incorrectly that on that stretch of line "usual"
>>>> was indeed on-the-right?
>>>
>>>From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station master' was
>>>controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched wrong line for
>>>some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or siding?).
>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but for some
>>>unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound express passenger
>>>train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>> I thought the pictures showed the passenger train running on the
>>left,
>> whereas in Greece one might expect the correct side normally to be the
>> right.
>> (It's unfortunate the word "right" has two meanings, we should be
>> careful not to be ambiguous in its use).
>
>I think there are three potential meanings in this context:
>- Right hand side verses left hand side,
>- Right line versus wrong line (although I'm not sure that "right line" is
> actually correct British railway usage),
>- Correct versus incorrect.
>
>In the UK the wrong line is usually on the right hand side. A SPAD or
>faulty set of points might result in a train on an incorrect line,
>which could be the right line on the left hand side during engineering
>works.
>
>As we are frequently reminded, trains from Ely to Norwich often
>correctly depart on the wrong line down the up line on the right hand
>side.

As the tracks there are signalled bi-directionally, I'm not sure "wrong
line" is an appropriate expression. As mentioned earlier, in a sense
those 2km are in fact an extended station throat, especially as all
Kings Lynn and Norwich trains (in both directions) plus southbound
Peterborough trains, go through one single-lead junction. I make that
8tph + two goods paths.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tu7tva$gdr4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:58:02 on Tue, 7 Mar
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> The presence of the motorway overbridges would have hidden the fact
>>>>> that the trains were on the same track until the last moment before
>>>>> the collision.
>>>>
>>>> Only hidden from the drivers (who would have needed a mile to brake,
>>>> anyway).
>>>
>>> Well, yes. If they had been able to see each other from further away,
>>> emergency braking might have made a great difference to the force of the
>>> collision.
>> Even on a long, straight stretch would it be possible for eyes to
>> differentiate that oncoming headlights at night (as it was apparently)
>> were on the same track?
>
>Anna could confirm (or deny) but, assuming something like British
>levels of route knowledge, there'd probably be tell tale clues that
>would reveal the problem. From personal experience at places like
>Woking and Basingstoke I can pick up whether the approaching train is
>on the fast or slow lines at night. And that's being stood on the platform.

The trains were reported to be traveling at 140kph (it's not clear if
that's a closing speed, or just the passenger train). I wonder what the
combined stopping distance would be. And of course it requires *both*
drivers to brake to prevent a collision.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tu7rn0$g4i3$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:19:28 on Tue, 7 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/03/2023 16:02, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 15:47:19 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/03/2023 14:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:30:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <0Ab*a4Caz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 13:11:28 on Tue,
>>>>>> 7 Mar 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 07 Mar 2023 11:03:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> From this report, it sounds like the train that the 'station
>>>>>>>>>>master' was
>>>>>>>>>> controlling was the southbound freight, which he despatched
>>>>>>>>>>wrong line for
>>>>>>>>>> some reason (perhaps it had joined the main line from a branch or
>>>>>>>>>> siding?).
>>>>>>>>>> He was then supposed to switch it to the other (right) track, but
>>>>>>>>>> for some
>>>>>>>>>> unknown (to us) reason failed to do so. The northbound
>>>>>>>>>>express passenger
>>>>>>>>>> train was running right line throughout, probably at line speed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That sounds backwards, because the freight was right-hand
>>>>>>>>>running and the
>>>>>>>>> passenger was left-hand running.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are we sure about that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes. Here's a picture looking south:
>>>>>>> https://www.kathimerini.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/AP23061329469461-2
>>>>>>> -960x600.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geographical context, left to right at the bottom that's the new
>>>>>>>national
>>>>>>> road (motorway), the old national road (single carriageway), the
>>>>>>>railway,
>>>>>>> and a farm track.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both trains are on the right-hand track from a north-to-south
>>>>>>>perspective.
>>>>>>> For the freight train that would be the usual track.
>>>>>>> The passenger train travelling south to north is therefore left-hand
>>>>>>> running.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And as I posted in the second message in the thread:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-64807384
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The story and photos imply it was a head-on crash (with the passenger
>>>>>> train heading north on [it's] lefthand track)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With other confirmatory photography linked to soon after.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have we confirmed which train the 'station master' was controlling? I
>>>>> had originally thought it was the passenger
>>>>> train, but the more recent report made me think it was actually
>>>>>the freight.
>>>>
>>>> Logically it would be the passenger as that was the one running wrong
>>>> line, so an active decision was taken to switch it to that.
>>>
>>> Yes, that's what I'd assumed earlier, but this latest report says:
>>>
>>> The accused, 59, who has accepted responsibility for failing to switch
>>> tracks on a freight train — leaving it running on the same line as an
>>> oncoming passenger train packed with university students — was
>>>charged with
>>> multiple counts of negligent manslaughter.
>>
>> Having dispatched the passenger train wrong line, he should have then
>> switched the goods train but didn't. Either that or the report is confused.
>
>I'm still confused. I wonder how large an area he controlled?

The news today suggests that for a brief period "all of central Greece".

>Given the apparently primitive systems in use, I assumed it was quite a
>small area, so he'd be unlikely to be in control of both of the trains
>before the collided. So, if he was in control of the freight, he
>wouldn't have had anything to do with the passenger express (or vice
>versa). And we've not been given any reasons for one of the trains
>being routed wrong-line.

His finger trouble and/or lack of training, having been on the job only
3 days apparently.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/03/2023 06:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tu7tva$gdr4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:58:02 on Tue, 7 Mar
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> The presence of the motorway overbridges would have hidden the fact
>>>>>> that the trains were on the same track until the last moment before
>>>>>> the collision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only hidden from the drivers (who would have needed a mile to brake,
>>>>> anyway).
>>>>
>>>> Well, yes. If they had been able to see each other from further away,
>>>> emergency braking might have made a great difference to the force of
>>>> the
>>>> collision.
>>>  Even on a long, straight stretch would it be possible for eyes to
>>> differentiate that oncoming headlights at night (as it was apparently)
>>> were on the same track?
>>
>> Anna could confirm (or deny) but, assuming something like British
>> levels of route knowledge, there'd probably be tell tale clues that
>> would reveal the problem. From personal experience at places like
>> Woking and Basingstoke I can pick up whether the approaching train is
>> on the fast or slow lines at night. And that's being stood on the
>> platform.
>
> The trains were reported to be traveling at 140kph (it's not clear if
> that's a closing speed, or just the passenger train). I wonder what the
> combined stopping distance would be. And of course it requires *both*
> drivers to brake to prevent a collision.

I didn't claim they could have prevented the collision, just reduced the
severity of the impact.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.