<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:23:09 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> Its not "YU" , its "Y", or as close as. And its just has to be 2 letters that
>>
>>> are unique.
>>
>> No, YU is not the same as Y. I’m checking with a Russian scholar I know,
>> but I don’t think YU is ever written with a vertical tail the way a Latin
>> capital Y usually is. It’s a different letter.
>
> You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what it is, its what it looks
> like. And plenty of people write a Y with an angled tail instead of vertical.

However the Cyrillic OO (apologies, my mistake - YU is the one that looks
like I-O) is not normally printed with a vertical tail, however my Russian
scholar friend says that Ukrainians would likely recognise latin-alphabet
YK or YKP (but not, I think, YKR; it would have to be UKR) as abbreviations
for their country.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:15:01 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tunj6l$3rdmh$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:32:21 on Mon, 13 Mar
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:43:36 +0000
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <tune5b$3qf2m$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:06:19 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 14:49:38 +0000
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>In message <tun3m6$3oioi$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:34 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:12:45 +0000
>>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>In message <tumunq$3nbpu$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:43:06 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 10:05:54 +0000
>>>>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>In message <tumr24$3m6lk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:20 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>>>>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>Given they use the cyrillic alphabet why didn't ukraine just use yk?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ukraine unilaterally (in what arena) or do you mean ISO's designation on
>>>>>>>>>their behalf (which I'm sure would have been debated at extreme length).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Wherever appropriate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So you don't know then. OK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Roland logic:
>>>>>>"Where shall I put this?"
>>>>>>"Wherever you want"
>>>>>>"So you don't know then"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Why do they use "UA" when "YK" would have been the 1st 2 letters of
>>>>>>their name
>>>>>
>>>>>>in cyrillic? Albeit a Y in cyrillic has a different sound.
>>>>>
>>>>>Because that's what ISO decided, and ISO don't make decisions like that
>>>>>off the cuff.
>>>>
>>>>I'm sure we could find some fairly stupid country designations that
>>>>have little to do with the name.
>>>
>>>The list is published, do suggest a few...
>>
>>Took a few seconds: DZ for algeria, BY for belarus, GG for guernsey,
>>KY for cayman islands.
>>
>>Probably more but I have better things to do with my time.
>
>GG apart from being strongly related to "G"uernsey is another one that
>had to be specially approved because they'd sort-of-used-it before it
>was officially designated.
>
>DZ presumably harks back to the local name of "El Djazaïr"

Transliteration of the Berber name is even closer as Dzayer.
>
>Belarus used to be called "Byelorussian SSR"

And the *y* is contained/understood with *e* when using the Cyrillic
script, just as we in English say "yes".

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:51:37 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:23:09 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Its not "YU" , its "Y", or as close as. And its just has to be 2 letters that
>>>
>>>> are unique.
>>>
>>> No, YU is not the same as Y. I’m checking with a Russian scholar I know,
>>> but I don’t think YU is ever written with a vertical tail the way a Latin
>>> capital Y usually is. It’s a different letter.
>>
>> You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what it is, its what it looks
>> like. And plenty of people write a Y with an angled tail instead of vertical.
>
>However the Cyrillic OO (apologies, my mistake - YU is the one that looks
>like I-O) is not normally printed with a vertical tail, however my Russian
>scholar friend says that Ukrainians would likely recognise latin-alphabet
>YK or YKP (but not, I think, YKR; it would have to be UKR) as abbreviations
>for their country.
>
>Sam

UKR is the ITU's designation.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tum1on$3dlpg$5@dont-email.me>, at 02:28:39 on Mon, 13 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>>>
>>>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of
>>>> the United
>>>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.
>>>
>>> A UKGBNI'er... works for all of us in amateur radio...
>>
>> I notice that the Titan A321neo, leased by the UK government, was
>> re-registered as G-GBNI. It's just flown the PM's delegation from Stansted
>> to San Diego, with a refuelling stop in Dulles. I wonder why they didn't
>> use the RAF Voyager A330 that could have done it non-stop, in more comfort?
>
> Probably because they wanted to pick up some passengers (could be UK
> embassy staff wanting to brief the PM en-route, or US officials to have
> a pre-meeting with).

Yes, that's possible, but briefings don't have to be face-to-face in the
modern era. The PM is extreme busy at the moment, and that slow transport
mode added an extra 4.5 hours travel time (16 hours vs 11.5 on the
outbound) each way. I dare say he'd have much more chance of a snooze in
the more comfortable, larger aircraft, and he could have taken a larger
delegation if needed.

>
>> The A321 previously flew from Orly to Stansted on the 10th evening. I
>> wonder if that was conveying the PM's delegation back from the meetings
>> with Macron? They went out by Eurostar, but perhaps returned by air?
>
> Again, going out by E* allows a period of relatively uninterrupted peace
> and quiet for pre-meetings and briefings, whereas afterwards you just
> want to get home as soon as possible.

The pictures show him surrounded by journalists. A private plane would
provide much better opportunities for confidential briefings and
pre-meetings.

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:51:37 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:23:09 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> Its not "YU" , its "Y", or as close as. And its just has to be 2 letters that
>>>>
>>>>> are unique.
>>>>
>>>> No, YU is not the same as Y. I’m checking with a Russian scholar I know,
>>>> but I don’t think YU is ever written with a vertical tail the way a Latin
>>>> capital Y usually is. It’s a different letter.
>>>
>>> You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what it is, its what it looks
>>> like. And plenty of people write a Y with an angled tail instead of vertical.
>>
>> However the Cyrillic OO (apologies, my mistake - YU is the one that looks
>> like I-O) is not normally printed with a vertical tail, however my Russian
>> scholar friend says that Ukrainians would likely recognise latin-alphabet
>> YK or YKP (but not, I think, YKR; it would have to be UKR) as abbreviations
>> for their country.
>>
>> Sam
>
> UKR is the ITU's designation.

And also (possibly as a consequence of) the ISO 3166 3-letter code, even
though the 2-letter code is UA.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 09:42:06 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 00:21:55 +0000
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:35:18 +0000
>>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>>>>mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>>>
>>>>>Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>>>
>>>>I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>>>
>>>Really? Visit any high street in an arc from wood green through tottenham
>>>to walthamstow and have a listen to how often you hear english spoken. And if
>>>you do it'll probably be in a foreign accent and when the accent is british
>>>it'll probably be from an afro caribbean or asian. The majority of white
>>>londoners legged it long ago north, east and west.
>>>
>>What is a "British accent" ?
>
>Not a turkish or albanian one.
>
>>What is a "Londoner" ?
>
>Whats a scotsman, true or otherwise?
>
Worded that way, anybody.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 09:40:20 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 09:45:22 +0100
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>On 13.03.23 00:07, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>>>
>>>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>>
>>>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland. Mind you, many
>>>> people seem to use "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably,
>>>> forgetting the one is Eng, Scot, Wales and the other is Eng, Scot, Wales,
>>>> NI. Did cars from Northern Ireland carry an oval GB sticker or (more
>>>> recently) have GB on the blue sidebar of the EU-standard number plates. Or
>>>> did they have separate letters "NI"?
>>>
>>> Until the days of BoJo the Evil Clown the international car registration
>>> letters for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were
>>> GB, as is the ISO 3166 two-letter abbreviation, which has been a source of
>>> tension in some quarters. They are now UK, which matches the DNS top level
>>> domain, and is also a source of tension in some quarters.
>>
>>AIUI there was some dispute with Ukraine about the use of the letters UK
>>for certain purposes, so the compromise was for them to use UA and us to
>>use GB.
>
>Given they use the cyrillic alphabet why didn't ukraine just use yk?
>
UA matches use of the initial and terminal letters of the Latinised
"Ukraina" for which there would seem to be no basic objection.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 22:18:35 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:51:37 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:23:09 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Its not "YU" , its "Y", or as close as. And its just has to be 2 letters that
>>>>>
>>>>>> are unique.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, YU is not the same as Y. I’m checking with a Russian scholar I know,
>>>>> but I don’t think YU is ever written with a vertical tail the way a Latin
>>>>> capital Y usually is. It’s a different letter.
>>>>
>>>> You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what it is, its what it looks
>>>> like. And plenty of people write a Y with an angled tail instead of vertical.
>>>
>>> However the Cyrillic OO (apologies, my mistake - YU is the one that looks
>>> like I-O) is not normally printed with a vertical tail, however my Russian
>>> scholar friend says that Ukrainians would likely recognise latin-alphabet
>>> YK or YKP (but not, I think, YKR; it would have to be UKR) as abbreviations
>>> for their country.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>
>> UKR is the ITU's designation.
>
>And also (possibly as a consequence of) the ISO 3166 3-letter code, even
>though the 2-letter code is UA.
>
Three-letter codes tend to be a more frequent match to the beginning
of many counties' names as there is less opportunity for a clash.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:43:20 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:

>On 13.03.23 16:06, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 14:49:38 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tun3m6$3oioi$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:34 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:12:45 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tumunq$3nbpu$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:43:06 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 10:05:54 +0000
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tumr24$3m6lk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:20 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> Given they use the cyrillic alphabet why didn't ukraine just use yk?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ukraine unilaterally (in what arena) or do you mean ISO's designation on
>>>>>>> their behalf (which I'm sure would have been debated at extreme length).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wherever appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you don't know then. OK.
>>>>
>>>> Roland logic:
>>>> "Where shall I put this?"
>>>> "Wherever you want"
>>>> "So you don't know then"
>>>>
>>>> Why do they use "UA" when "YK" would have been the 1st 2 letters of their name
>>>
>>>> in cyrillic? Albeit a Y in cyrillic has a different sound.
>>>
>>> Because that's what ISO decided, and ISO don't make decisions like that
>>> off the cuff.
>>
>> I'm sure we could find some fairly stupid country designations that have little
>> to do with the name.
>
>Looking at the list of ISO 3166-1 two letter codes, There is a mix of
>countries that use codes that sound odd based on the English name but
>make sense based on the domestic name (CH, DE, HR), ones that are
>clearly based on the English name but not the local name (AT, JP), the
>odd one that makes sense based on a name change (SZ) and some that are
>harder to fathom (MK).
>
Greek?

>Mostly, though, they make sense in the context of
>what the countries are called and what potential ambiguities exist.
>
>Robin

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 10:45:10 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>>
>>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of the United
>>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.
>>>
>> UKish ? (kepe it short, keep it simple).
>
>Worryingly close to UKIP.
>
The UK has an earlier and better claim as with the Union Flag and the
National Front.

In message <tunnr9$3s8ms$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:37 on Mon, 13 Mar
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:23:09 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Its not "YU" , its "Y", or as close as. And its just has to be 2
>>>>letters that
>>>
>>>> are unique.
>>>
>>> No, YU is not the same as Y. I’m checking with a Russian scholar I know,
>>> but I don’t think YU is ever written with a vertical tail the way a Latin
>>> capital Y usually is. It’s a different letter.
>>
>> You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what it is, its what it looks
>> like. And plenty of people write a Y with an angled tail instead of vertical.
>
>However the Cyrillic OO (apologies, my mistake - YU is the one that looks
>like I-O) is not normally printed with a vertical tail, however my Russian
>scholar friend says that Ukrainians would likely recognise latin-alphabet
>YK or YKP (but not, I think, YKR; it would have to be UKR) as abbreviations
>for their country.

Some friends are hosting a Ukrainian refugee nearby, so perhaps I can go
ask them for an opinion. Although their first language is Russian, and
thereby lays one of the roots of the current conflict.
--
Roland Perry

On 14.03.23 02:20, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:43:20 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> On 13.03.23 16:06, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 14:49:38 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tun3m6$3oioi$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:34 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:12:45 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tumunq$3nbpu$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:43:06 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 10:05:54 +0000
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tumr24$3m6lk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:20 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Given they use the cyrillic alphabet why didn't ukraine just use yk?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ukraine unilaterally (in what arena) or do you mean ISO's designation on
>>>>>>>> their behalf (which I'm sure would have been debated at extreme length).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wherever appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you don't know then. OK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roland logic:
>>>>> "Where shall I put this?"
>>>>> "Wherever you want"
>>>>> "So you don't know then"
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do they use "UA" when "YK" would have been the 1st 2 letters of their name
>>>>
>>>>> in cyrillic? Albeit a Y in cyrillic has a different sound.
>>>>
>>>> Because that's what ISO decided, and ISO don't make decisions like that
>>>> off the cuff.
>>>
>>> I'm sure we could find some fairly stupid country designations that have little
>>> to do with the name.
>>
>> Looking at the list of ISO 3166-1 two letter codes, There is a mix of
>> countries that use codes that sound odd based on the English name but
>> make sense based on the domestic name (CH, DE, HR), ones that are
>> clearly based on the English name but not the local name (AT, JP), the
>> odd one that makes sense based on a name change (SZ) and some that are
>> harder to fathom (MK).
>>
> Greek?

Ah yes. In Greek, Macedonia is Μακεδόνες so Romanising that to Makedones
would make MK seem to be logical.

Robin

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 00:55:56 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 09:42:06 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 00:21:55 +0000
>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:10:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:35:18 +0000
>>>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:54:15 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>Of course they do, just because a load of immigrants arrived doesn't
>>>>>>>mean the locals just got up and left.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Obviously you've never been to Tottenham ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>I have on numerous occasions and they quite clearly haven't left.
>>>>
>>>>Really? Visit any high street in an arc from wood green through tottenham
>>>>to walthamstow and have a listen to how often you hear english spoken. And
>if
>>>>you do it'll probably be in a foreign accent and when the accent is british
>
>>>>it'll probably be from an afro caribbean or asian. The majority of white
>>>>londoners legged it long ago north, east and west.
>>>>
>>>What is a "British accent" ?
>>
>>Not a turkish or albanian one.
>>
>>>What is a "Londoner" ?
>>
>>Whats a scotsman, true or otherwise?
>>
>Worded that way, anybody.

Oh good. Can we all have a vote in the next indy neverendum then?

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 06:39:58 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tunnr9$3s8ms$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:37 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>However the Cyrillic OO (apologies, my mistake - YU is the one that looks
>>like I-O) is not normally printed with a vertical tail, however my Russian
>>scholar friend says that Ukrainians would likely recognise latin-alphabet
>>YK or YKP (but not, I think, YKR; it would have to be UKR) as abbreviations
>>for their country.
>
>Some friends are hosting a Ukrainian refugee nearby, so perhaps I can go
>ask them for an opinion. Although their first language is Russian, and
>thereby lays one of the roots of the current conflict.

Not only that - Yanukovich was ousted by protests. Nasty piece of work that
he was, he was democratically elected in what was judged a fair election yet
when he was overthrown there was only a thumbs up from the west. So when Putin
says the west is hypocritical when it comes to democracy he has a point. Not
that it justifies his invasion one bit.

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:01:36 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 14.03.23 02:20, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> Looking at the list of ISO 3166-1 two letter codes, There is a mix of
>>> countries that use codes that sound odd based on the English name but
>>> make sense based on the domestic name (CH, DE, HR), ones that are
>>> clearly based on the English name but not the local name (AT, JP), the
>>> odd one that makes sense based on a name change (SZ) and some that are
>>> harder to fathom (MK).
>>>
>> Greek?
>
>Ah yes. In Greek, Macedonia is Μακεδόνες so Romanising that to

No idea what greek you wrote there but it comes up as complete gibberish on
my mac.

On 14.03.23 10:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 06:39:58 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tunnr9$3s8ms$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:37 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>> However the Cyrillic OO (apologies, my mistake - YU is the one that looks
>>> like I-O) is not normally printed with a vertical tail, however my Russian
>>> scholar friend says that Ukrainians would likely recognise latin-alphabet
>>> YK or YKP (but not, I think, YKR; it would have to be UKR) as abbreviations
>>> for their country.
>>
>> Some friends are hosting a Ukrainian refugee nearby, so perhaps I can go
>> ask them for an opinion. Although their first language is Russian, and
>> thereby lays one of the roots of the current conflict.
>
> Not only that - Yanukovich was ousted by protests. Nasty piece of work that
> he was, he was democratically elected in what was judged a fair election yet
> when he was overthrown there was only a thumbs up from the west. So when Putin
> says the west is hypocritical when it comes to democracy he has a point. Not
> that it justifies his invasion one bit.

He was voted in on a promise of signing an agreement for closer ties
with the EU. When he took office, he promptly dropped the EU agreement
that was ready to sign and instead signed up for closer ties with
Russia. The people who had voted him were justafiably pissed off and
protested over this, and his response was to get in a helicopter and fly
to Russia. He both betrayed the electorate in terms of running on the
basis of doign one thing and then trying to do the opposite, and then
abandoned the job.

Robin

On 14.03.23 10:38, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:01:36 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 14.03.23 02:20, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> Looking at the list of ISO 3166-1 two letter codes, There is a mix of
>>>> countries that use codes that sound odd based on the English name but
>>>> make sense based on the domestic name (CH, DE, HR), ones that are
>>>> clearly based on the English name but not the local name (AT, JP), the
>>>> odd one that makes sense based on a name change (SZ) and some that are
>>>> harder to fathom (MK).
>>>>
>>> Greek?
>>
>> Ah yes. In Greek, Macedonia is Μακεδόνες so Romanising that to
>
> No idea what greek you wrote there but it comes up as complete gibberish on
> my mac.

Shows up fine on mine (OS is 13.2.1 and news client is Thunderbird). You
migth say it's all greek to me...

Robin

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:43:50 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 14.03.23 10:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 06:39:58 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tunnr9$3s8ms$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:37 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>> However the Cyrillic OO (apologies, my mistake - YU is the one that looks
>>>> like I-O) is not normally printed with a vertical tail, however my Russian
>>>> scholar friend says that Ukrainians would likely recognise latin-alphabet
>>>> YK or YKP (but not, I think, YKR; it would have to be UKR) as abbreviations
>
>>>> for their country.
>>>
>>> Some friends are hosting a Ukrainian refugee nearby, so perhaps I can go
>>> ask them for an opinion. Although their first language is Russian, and
>>> thereby lays one of the roots of the current conflict.
>>
>> Not only that - Yanukovich was ousted by protests. Nasty piece of work that
>> he was, he was democratically elected in what was judged a fair election yet
>> when he was overthrown there was only a thumbs up from the west. So when
>Putin
>> says the west is hypocritical when it comes to democracy he has a point. Not
>> that it justifies his invasion one bit.
>
>He was voted in on a promise of signing an agreement for closer ties
>with the EU. When he took office, he promptly dropped the EU agreement
>that was ready to sign and instead signed up for closer ties with
>Russia. The people who had voted him were justafiably pissed off and
>protested over this, and his response was to get in a helicopter and fly
>to Russia. He both betrayed the electorate in terms of running on the
>basis of doign one thing and then trying to do the opposite, and then
>abandoned the job.

If every leader who renaged on a manifesto promise was booted out of office
we'd be having elections every week. They knew what he was like yet they still
voted for him. More fool them.

In message <tuo6nc$3uq63$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:05:32 on Mon, 13 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tum1on$3dlpg$5@dont-email.me>, at 02:28:39 on Mon, 13 Mar
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:15:08 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:tuib12$2jal8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:28:11 +0100
>>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11.03.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Technically the irish are also british because the british isles is
>>>>>>> everywhere
>>>>>>>> the native britons used to live which includes the island of ireland.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends which definition of "British" you are using. If you want to get
>>>>>>> all technical, only the Welsh and Cornish are the only actually British
>>>>>>> people, the Brittons no longer live in the rest of the British Isles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't change anything. Great Britain is the geographical name for this
>>>>>> island ergo its natives are British.
>>>>>
>>>>> There needs to be an equivalent term to "British" which means "of
>>>>> the United
>>>>> Kingdom" so as to also include people from Northern Ireland.
>>>>
>>>> A UKGBNI'er... works for all of us in amateur radio...
>>>
>>> I notice that the Titan A321neo, leased by the UK government, was
>>> re-registered as G-GBNI. It's just flown the PM's delegation from Stansted
>>> to San Diego, with a refuelling stop in Dulles. I wonder why they didn't
>>> use the RAF Voyager A330 that could have done it non-stop, in more comfort?
>>
>> Probably because they wanted to pick up some passengers (could be UK
>> embassy staff wanting to brief the PM en-route, or US officials to have
>> a pre-meeting with).
>
>Yes, that's possible, but briefings don't have to be face-to-face in the
>modern era.

They don't have to be, but are vastly more effective. When in Downing St
AIUI the PM has a diary organised as 5-minute slots, so it's basically
an all-day series of elevator pitches. When I was there (to discuss how
the UK Telecoms sector could better assist developing countries[1],
which was one of the topics the UK had on its agenda as a G8 host that
year) the meeting was taken by one of twelve sherpas allocated to a
first approximation the portfolios of Secretaries of State, such was the
workload.

I didn't meet the PM, but my wife did a few years later on International
Womens' Day, and was hugely impressed at the way David Cameron soaked up
the brief and did an unscripted speech without even a pause for breath.
She's on one the sofas (all activists, not all of them survivors[2]):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lC_T0BrChw

We got involved in this because of the issues at 2:06, and while we did lead
the drafting and delivery of the stalking law onto the statute book (coining
the phrase "Digital Stalking" to decribe the convergence of Internet and Mobile
phones), ten years on there's still a huge problem out there to be dealt with.

Synchronicity strikes, and youtube showed me this clip next:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtAX6hhLdHU

I've been to that Palace too (and the motorcycle-escorted drive was quite
exciting, Rishi seems to have got stuck in traffic) and met the president du
jour, regarding Cybercrime issues. And not just that, but was doorstepped en-
route on the E* by one of Blunkett's top Home Office officals, who I'm sure
knew, that I immediately knew, that it wasn't a co-incidence he'd managed to
book the seats opposite mine. And a very productive ad-hoc meeting it was, too.

The following day, some colleagues and I had dinner in a restaurant in a
disused railway station in the suburbs of Paris. Mr Google suggests it was
probably the eponymously named Restaurant La Gare.

>The PM is extreme busy at the moment, and that slow transport
>mode added an extra 4.5 hours travel time (16 hours vs 11.5 on the
>outbound) each way. I dare say he'd have much more chance of a snooze in
>the more comfortable, larger aircraft, and he could have taken a larger
>delegation if needed.

I'm afraid your mental image of the process is way off the mark. And
whatever the transit time, there's multiple initiatives to be addressed.
It turns out they could have spent some of it arranging the rescue of
SVB(UK).

>>> The A321 previously flew from Orly to Stansted on the 10th evening. I
>>> wonder if that was conveying the PM's delegation back from the meetings
>>> with Macron? They went out by Eurostar, but perhaps returned by air?
>>
>> Again, going out by E* allows a period of relatively uninterrupted peace
>> and quiet for pre-meetings and briefings, whereas afterwards you just
>> want to get home as soon as possible.
>
>The pictures show him surrounded by journalists. A private plane would
>provide much better opportunities for confidential briefings and
>pre-meetings.

Again, you don't need to hold every meeting using a megaphone, and
private briefings (not only by the PM) with journalists are one of the
better uses of time on such a trip. Photo-ops are just one public-facing
ingredient.

[1] The answer being "happy to do whatever we can by way of free advice,
but whatever you do don't install copper, because by the next day it'll
be stolen (sad but true); meanwhile don't waste your time trying to
arrange loans from the World Bank etc, because they don't want to
increase their debt".

[2] And my opinion is that the cause is better served by professional
lobbyists, because survivors tend to be 'a bit shouty'. But by all means
shout at people like me and my wife in private, and then we can go have
a quiet word with the people who matter (and frankly are a bit weary of
being shouted at; it's completely unnecessary).
--
Roland Perry

In message <tupfbd$9b9j$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:38:53 on Tue, 14 Mar
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:01:36 +0100
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>On 14.03.23 02:20, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> Looking at the list of ISO 3166-1 two letter codes, There is a mix of
>>>> countries that use codes that sound odd based on the English name but
>>>> make sense based on the domestic name (CH, DE, HR), ones that are
>>>> clearly based on the English name but not the local name (AT, JP), the
>>>> odd one that makes sense based on a name change (SZ) and some that are
>>>> harder to fathom (MK).
>>>>
>>> Greek?
>>
>>Ah yes. In Greek, Macedonia is ΜακÎμδόνÎμÏ‚ so Romanising that to
>
>No idea what greek you wrote there but it comes up as complete gibberish on
>my mac.

Ah yes, Apple stuff that "just works", although some say "only-just
works". To be fair, Microsoft has never properly got its head around
character sets either.
--
Roland Perry

Am 14.03.2023 um 02:20 schrieb Charles Ellson:
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:43:20 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> On 13.03.23 16:06, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 14:49:38 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tun3m6$3oioi$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:07:34 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:12:45 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tumunq$3nbpu$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:43:06 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 10:05:54 +0000
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tumr24$3m6lk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:20 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Given they use the cyrillic alphabet why didn't ukraine just use yk?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ukraine unilaterally (in what arena) or do you mean ISO's designation on
>>>>>>>> their behalf (which I'm sure would have been debated at extreme length).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wherever appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you don't know then. OK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roland logic:
>>>>> "Where shall I put this?"
>>>>> "Wherever you want"
>>>>> "So you don't know then"
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do they use "UA" when "YK" would have been the 1st 2 letters of their name
>>>>
>>>>> in cyrillic? Albeit a Y in cyrillic has a different sound.
>>>>
>>>> Because that's what ISO decided, and ISO don't make decisions like that
>>>> off the cuff.
>>>
>>> I'm sure we could find some fairly stupid country designations that have little
>>> to do with the name.
>>
>> Looking at the list of ISO 3166-1 two letter codes, There is a mix of
>> countries that use codes that sound odd based on the English name but
>> make sense based on the domestic name (CH, DE, HR), ones that are
>> clearly based on the English name but not the local name (AT, JP), the
>> odd one that makes sense based on a name change (SZ) and some that are
>> harder to fathom (MK).
>>
> Greek?

Sure, Greek 'K' was transscribed to Latin 'C' which then sometimes was
sound-shifted to 'Z' in Medieval times, so the Kyklades islands are now
written Zyklades in German.

Rolf

Rolf

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:48:23 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tupfbd$9b9j$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:38:53 on Tue, 14 Mar
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>No idea what greek you wrote there but it comes up as complete gibberish on
>>my mac.
>
>Ah yes, Apple stuff that "just works", although some say "only-just
>works". To be fair, Microsoft has never properly got its head around
>character sets either.

Mac Terminal is supposed to be UTF8 compliant but it wouldn't be the first time
its shown that it isn't.

I only use Mac because everything after Win 7 has been junk and I got tired
with every linux distro being different for the sake of being different.

On 14/03/2023 09:38, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:01:36 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 14.03.23 02:20, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> Looking at the list of ISO 3166-1 two letter codes, There is a mix of
>>>> countries that use codes that sound odd based on the English name but
>>>> make sense based on the domestic name (CH, DE, HR), ones that are
>>>> clearly based on the English name but not the local name (AT, JP), the
>>>> odd one that makes sense based on a name change (SZ) and some that are
>>>> harder to fathom (MK).
>>>>
>>> Greek?
>>
>> Ah yes. In Greek, Macedonia is Μακεδόνες so Romanising that to
>
> No idea what greek you wrote there but it comes up as complete gibberish on
> my mac.
>
It came up is proper Macedonian on my Linux system. You should upgrade.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:43:50 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 14.03.23 10:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 06:39:58 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tunnr9$3s8ms$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:37 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>> However the Cyrillic OO (apologies, my mistake - YU is the one that looks
>>>>> like I-O) is not normally printed with a vertical tail, however my Russian
>>>>> scholar friend says that Ukrainians would likely recognise latin-alphabet
>>>>> YK or YKP (but not, I think, YKR; it would have to be UKR) as abbreviations
>>
>>>>> for their country.
>>>>
>>>> Some friends are hosting a Ukrainian refugee nearby, so perhaps I can go
>>>> ask them for an opinion. Although their first language is Russian, and
>>>> thereby lays one of the roots of the current conflict.
>>>
>>> Not only that - Yanukovich was ousted by protests. Nasty piece of work that
>>> he was, he was democratically elected in what was judged a fair election yet
>>> when he was overthrown there was only a thumbs up from the west. So when
>> Putin
>>> says the west is hypocritical when it comes to democracy he has a point. Not
>>> that it justifies his invasion one bit.
>>
>> He was voted in on a promise of signing an agreement for closer ties
>> with the EU. When he took office, he promptly dropped the EU agreement
>> that was ready to sign and instead signed up for closer ties with
>> Russia. The people who had voted him were justafiably pissed off and
>> protested over this, and his response was to get in a helicopter and fly
>> to Russia. He both betrayed the electorate in terms of running on the
>> basis of doign one thing and then trying to do the opposite, and then
>> abandoned the job.
>
> If every leader who renaged on a manifesto promise was booted out of office

He wasn’t booted out of office, he ran away to another country and cut all
contact with the people under him. What is a country supposed to do if it’s
supposed leader just ups and leaves, and goes no-contact?

Robin

On 14/03/2023 09:38, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:01:36 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 14.03.23 02:20, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> Looking at the list of ISO 3166-1 two letter codes, There is a mix of
>>>> countries that use codes that sound odd based on the English name but
>>>> make sense based on the domestic name (CH, DE, HR), ones that are
>>>> clearly based on the English name but not the local name (AT, JP), the
>>>> odd one that makes sense based on a name change (SZ) and some that are
>>>> harder to fathom (MK).
>>>>
>>> Greek?
>>
>> Ah yes. In Greek, Macedonia is Μακεδόνες so Romanising that to
>
> No idea what greek you wrote there but it comes up as complete gibberish on
> my mac.
>

Comes up fine here, but then I'm using a non-standards compliant
newsreader :-)

--
Graeme Wall
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