On 17/03/2023 22:52, ColinR wrote:
> On 17/03/2023 21:55, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 17/03/2023 16:09, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 17/03/2023 08:33, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 17/03/2023 08:19, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed, 15
>>>>>>> Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%
>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister by the
>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as we
>>>>>>>>> don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>> they are
>>>>>>>> effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times
>>>>>>> was the
>>>>>>> most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times", everyone post-war lasted
>>>>>> longer, with notables being Wilson after the 1974 (II) election:
>>>>>> election October '74, Callaghan takes over April '76; Eden
>>>>>> (election May
>>>>>> '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election November
>>>>>> '22,
>>>>>> Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after the '23 election
>>>>>> (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced Baldwin in Jan '24. The
>>>>>> latter was a case of a hung parliament and Baldwin trying and
>>>>>> failing to
>>>>>> continue as a minority government, so perhaps should be
>>>>>> discounted, but
>>>>>> Bonar Law was a case of illness forcing his resignation and
>>>>>> replacement
>>>>>> by the same party.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the last
>>>>>> person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at a general
>>>>>> election (either winning to become PM or losing, ending their time
>>>>>> as PM)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Liz Truss is probably going to be the answer to more pub quiz
>>>>> questions
>>>>> than any other PM, before or since!
>>>>>
>>>>> So, here's a pre-emptive question: who can come up with the most
>>>>> pub quiz
>>>>> questions to which Truss is the only possible answer (let's say, since
>>>>> 1900)?
>>>>
>>>> Which (ex) Lib-dem became prime minister?
>>>
>>> I cannot think of any, but a Liberal did become PM (Churchill, long
>>> before the "dem" bit was added)
>>>
>>
>> Why I specifically said Lib-dem.
>>
>
> Yep, me thick as two short planks!! ;-)
>

Join the club :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/03/2023 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tv17k4$1s2cl$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:16:04 on Fri, 17 Mar
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 17/03/2023 08:01, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16 Mar
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16
>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed, 15
>>>>>>> Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the  vote.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister by the
>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as
>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>> they  are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times
>>>>>>> was  the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>  That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>  else?
>>>>>
>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the 1974
>>>>>> (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over April
>>>>>> '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election November
>>>>>> '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after the '23
>>>>>> election  (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced Baldwin in
>>>>>> Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung parliament and Baldwin
>>>>>> trying and failing  to continue as a minority government, so
>>>>>> perhaps  should be discounted,  but Bonar Law was a case of
>>>>>> illness forcing  his resignation and  replacement by the same party.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at a
>>>>>> general  election (either winning to become PM or losing, ending
>>>>>> their time as  PM)?
>>>>>  Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan. And
>>>>> Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's an
>>>>> invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>
>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>  Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>> prior  general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>
>> One would have to have been very ill-infomed not to know that Brown
>> was going to succeed Blair as labour party leader and Prime Minister.
>> Blair said as much before the previous GE.
>
> We knew that was the plan, but sometimes they change. Increasingly so
> these days.

But that wasn't these days, that was then.

>
>> May, actually lost her General Election and had to bribe the DUP to
>> remain in power.
>
> Did Cameron have to "bribe" the Lib Dems?

Not with taxpayers money but cabinet positions, which is much more
reasonable.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <tv184p$1s0mo$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:24:56 on Fri, 17 Mar
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 17.03.23 09:01, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16 Mar
>>2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16
>>>>Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed, 15
>>>>>>Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister by the
>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as
>>>>>>>>we don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>
>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times
>>>>>>was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>
>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>  That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>back to WW2.
>>>>
>>>>> everyone
>>>>  else?
>>>>
>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the 1974
>>>>>(II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over April
>>>>>'76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>
>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election November
>>>>>'22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after the '23
>>>>>election  (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced Baldwin in
>>>>>Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung parliament and Baldwin
>>>>>trying and failing  to continue as a minority government, so
>>>>>perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law was a case of illness
>>>>>forcing his resignation and  replacement by the same party.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at a
>>>>>general  election (either winning to become PM or losing, ending
>>>>>their time as  PM)?
>>>>  Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan. And
>>>>Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's an
>>>>invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>
>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>and lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>
>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General Elections
>>>and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While Sunak hasn't
>>>done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will remain both party
>>>leader and PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>which is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as leader.
>
>You have correctly answered a question that was not asked.

However, I did state up front that more clarity was required regarding
what the question was. In this instance as we were discussing the size
of the electorate who caused a PM to get into office. Arguably for
Gordon Brown it was just one - Tony Blair.

>If I had asked "which prime ministers took office other than at a
>General Election", that would have been the correct answer, but because
>it happens so often, it is not interesting.

I disagree about which is the more interesting question. However, both
have been answered now.

>Of the post-war prime ministers something like half of them either
>started or finished their time as PM at a point other than a general
>election.
>
>The question I asked was, "Who was the last person to serve as Prime
>Minister who never led a party at a general election (either winning
>to become PM or losing, ending their time as PM)?" Major, May and
>Johsnon all fought a GE and won an election as both PM and party
>leader, while Brown and Callaghan both fought and lost a GE as PM and
>party leader.

>Truss is undusual in that she served as party leader and PM but never
>fought a GE as either party leader or as PM.

That's a third question. But also an interesting one. A ship that passed
in the night. £30bn worth, which shines a rather different light on the
DUP's £2bn. At least the latter should have been spent on services for
the public.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tv3q37$2d89m$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:43:35 on Sat, 18 Mar
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> One would have to have been very ill-infomed not to know that Brown
>>>was going to succeed Blair as labour party leader and Prime Minister.
>>>Blair said as much before the previous GE.
>> We knew that was the plan, but sometimes they change. Increasingly
>>so these days.
>
>But that wasn't these days, that was then.

There were many rumours that Tony Blair would fail to deliver on his
informal promise to (eventually) step down.

>>> May, actually lost her General Election and had to bribe the DUP to
>>>remain in power.

>> Did Cameron have to "bribe" the Lib Dems?
>
>Not with taxpayers money

The two billion went into the DUP MPs' pockets?

>but cabinet positions, which is much more reasonable.

Many former students have never forgiven the Lib-Dems for failing to
insist that part of the bribe was money for student loan reform.
--
Roland Perry

On 18/03/2023 08:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tv3q37$2d89m$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:43:35 on Sat, 18 Mar
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> One would have to have been very ill-infomed not to know that Brown
>>>> was going to succeed Blair as labour party leader and Prime
>>>> Minister. Blair said as much before the previous GE.
>>>  We knew that was the plan, but sometimes they change. Increasingly
>>> so  these days.
>>
>> But that wasn't these days, that was then.
>
> There were many rumours that Tony Blair would fail to deliver on his
> informal promise to (eventually) step down.
>
>>>> May, actually lost her General Election and had to bribe the DUP to
>>>> remain in power.
>
>>>  Did Cameron have to "bribe" the Lib Dems?
>>
>> Not with taxpayers money
>
> The two billion went into the DUP MPs' pockets?

Difficult to find what it was used for but I refer you to various
scandals about waste and reusable energy in NI which, if they had
happened in Scotland, would have had the tabloid press foaming at the mouth.

>
>> but cabinet positions, which is much more reasonable.
>
> Many former students have never forgiven the Lib-Dems for failing to
> insist that part of the bribe was money for student loan reform.

Agreed, Clegg got well and truly conned on that one.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 21:29:52 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:36:21 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On the BBC News last night they mentioned that SNP membership has plummeted
>>> in 3 years to 70K. Oh dear.
>>
>Ah, "plummeted", another meaningless media buzzword. A lot of that

Its certainly overused, but losing 40% of your members in 3 years can hardly
be decribed as much else.

>will be non-renewals after a increase in public enthusiasm when many
>effectively donated rather than joined. In the long term the Tories
>have been the greatest in decline since c.1950, LAB have declined at a
>lower rate with a bigger drop between 1979-2015 before restoring to
>higher level but still on the same general decline. The SNP still has
>by far the highest proportion of the electorate in its membership.

Fascinating. But Wee Jimmys attempt to play the woke crossdresser card has
turned out to be probably the one of worst own goals by a party leader in the UK
this century after Liz Truss and Corbyn.

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 13 Mar 2023 at 6:23:09 PM EET, "Sam Wilson"
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:23:02 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:12:45 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tumunq$3nbpu$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:43:06 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 10:05:54 +0000
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tumr24$3m6lk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:20 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Given they use the cyrillic alphabet why didn't ukraine just use yk?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ukraine unilaterally (in what arena) or do you mean ISO's designation on
>>>>>>>> their behalf (which I'm sure would have been debated at extreme length).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wherever appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you don't know then. OK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roland logic:
>>>>> "Where shall I put this?"
>>>>> "Wherever you want"
>>>>> "So you don't know then"
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do they use "UA" when "YK" would have been the 1st 2 letters of their
>>>> name
>>>>> in cyrillic? Albeit a Y in cyrillic has a different sound.
>>>>
>>>> Because the letter YU in Cyrillic isn’t the same as Y in latin script? If
>>>
>>> Its not "YU" , its "Y", or as close as. And its just has to be 2 letters that
>>> are unique.
>>
>> No, YU is not the same as Y. I’m checking with a Russian scholar I know,
>> but I don’t think YU is ever written with a vertical tail the way a Latin
>> capital Y usually is. It’s a different letter
>
> Since I happen to be on a train out of Ukraine as I catch up on all the uk.r
> excitement I've missed this week, it occurred to me when I read this "I'm sure
> there must be plenty of examples I can see from my seat..." But it turns out
> the letter Y in English really isn't as common as you'd think when you go
> searching for it...
>
> Anyway, I did find one example illustrating the Y and У really are quite
> distinct letters, on my rail ticket - the Y in PRZEMYSL and the У in УЗШК both
> being printed in the same font:
>
> <https://imgur.com/a/g0J4AfA>

Thank you,

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16
>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister by
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as
>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times
>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>  That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>  else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the 1974
>>>>>>> (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over April
>>>>>>> '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced
>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung parliament
>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law was
>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at
>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>  Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's
>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>
>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>
>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>
>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General Elections
>>>>> and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While Sunak hasn't
>>>>> done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will remain both party
>>>>> leader and PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>>>>
>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>> leader.
>>>  <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>> subsequent GE.
>>
>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>
> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by the
> general public when entering office.

Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they contested
having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as party
leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this category at
the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister by
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times
>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>  That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>  else?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the 1974
>>>>>>>> (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over April
>>>>>>>> '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced
>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung parliament
>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law was
>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at
>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>  Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's
>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>
>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General Elections
>>>>>> and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While Sunak hasn't
>>>>>> done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will remain both party
>>>>>> leader and PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>>>>>
>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>> leader.
>>>>  <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>
>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>
>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by the
>> general public when entering office.
>
> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they contested
> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as party
> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this category at
> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.

Neville Chamberlain, I think.

At least he lasted much longer than Truss, and it took Hitler to force him
out. However, he only lived for six months after handing over to Churchill,
and so might well have died in office had he not resigned when he did.

On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times
>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>  That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>  else?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced
>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung parliament
>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law was
>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at
>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>  Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's
>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>
>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>>>>>
>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>> leader.
>>>>  <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>
>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>
>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>> the general public when entering office.
>
> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they contested
> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as party
> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this category at
> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>

Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
>> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times
>>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>>  That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>  else?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced
>>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung parliament
>>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law was
>>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at
>>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>>  Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's
>>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>>> leader.
>>>>>  <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>>
>>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>>
>>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>>> the general public when entering office.
>>
>> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
>> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
>> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they contested
>> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
>> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as party
>> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this category at
>> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>>
>
> Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?
>

No, led the Liberal Party to a landslide victory in the 1906 election.

On 18 Mar 2023 at 12:49:49 PM EET, "Sam Wilson"
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 13 Mar 2023 at 6:23:09 PM EET, "Sam Wilson"
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:23:02 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:12:45 +0000
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tumunq$3nbpu$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:43:06 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 10:05:54 +0000
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tumr24$3m6lk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:20 on Mon, 13 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023, <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Given they use the cyrillic alphabet why didn't ukraine just use yk?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ukraine unilaterally (in what arena) or do you mean ISO's designation on
>>>>>>>>> their behalf (which I'm sure would have been debated at extreme length).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wherever appropriate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you don't know then. OK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roland logic:
>>>>>> "Where shall I put this?"
>>>>>> "Wherever you want"
>>>>>> "So you don't know then"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do they use "UA" when "YK" would have been the 1st 2 letters of their
>>>>> name
>>>>>> in cyrillic? Albeit a Y in cyrillic has a different sound.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because the letter YU in Cyrillic isn’t the same as Y in latin script? If
>>>>
>>>> Its not "YU" , its "Y", or as close as. And its just has to be 2 letters that
>>>> are unique.
>>>
>>> No, YU is not the same as Y. I’m checking with a Russian scholar I know,
>>> but I don’t think YU is ever written with a vertical tail the way a Latin
>>> capital Y usually is. It’s a different letter
>>
>> Since I happen to be on a train out of Ukraine as I catch up on all the uk.r
>> excitement I've missed this week, it occurred to me when I read this "I'm sure
>> there must be plenty of examples I can see from my seat..." But it turns out
>> the letter Y in English really isn't as common as you'd think when you go
>> searching for it...
>>
>> Anyway, I did find one example illustrating the Y and У really are quite
>> distinct letters, on my rail ticket - the Y in PRZEMYSL and the У in УЗШК both
>> being printed in the same font:
>>
>> <https://imgur.com/a/g0J4AfA>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Sam

And incidentally, to more directly answer your point - I believe you're right,
I have certainly never seen a У in a cyrillic word written in the style of a
Latin Y, anywhere.

I meant to write that last night but forgot - the mobile signal near the
border is woeful (and almost entirely nonexistent near the customs check point
- I wonder if deliberately,) and since my current solution to a mobile Usenet
client that doesn't suck is VNCing to my home desktop it was a decidedly
frustrating post... Although it did while away a good part of an hour ;-)

On 18/03/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
>>> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times
>>>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>>>  That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>  else?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced
>>>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung parliament
>>>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law was
>>>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at
>>>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>>>  Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's
>>>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>>>> leader.
>>>>>>  <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>>>
>>>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>>>> the general public when entering office.
>>>
>>> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
>>> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
>>> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they contested
>>> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
>>> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as party
>>> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this category at
>>> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>>>
>>
>> Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?
>>
>
> No, led the Liberal Party to a landslide victory in the 1906 election.
>

Arthur Balfour, succeeded Salisbury when the latter resigned, his own
resignation led to the next GE.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18.03.23 13:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
>> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu,
>>>>>>>> 16 Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate
>>>>>>>>>>>> as we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent
>>>>>>>>>> times was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>>  That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>  else?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald
>>>>>>>>> replaced Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung
>>>>>>>>> parliament and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a
>>>>>>>>> minority government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but
>>>>>>>>> Bonar Law was a case of illness  forcing his resignation and
>>>>>>>>> replacement by the same party.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was
>>>>>>>>> the last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a
>>>>>>>>> party at a general  election (either winning to become PM or
>>>>>>>>> losing, ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>>  Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether
>>>>>>>> there's an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>>> leader.
>>>>>  <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>>
>>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>>
>>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>>> the general public when entering office.
>>
>> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
>> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
>> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they
>> contested having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4
>> never contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election
>> as party leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this
>> category at the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>>
>
> Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?

He led his party as PM into and won the 1906 GE.

Robin

On 18.03.23 14:17, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 18/03/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   No prime minister has ever been elected by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>   At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent
>>>>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>   Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>>>>   That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>   else?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced
>>>>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung parliament
>>>>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law was
>>>>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at
>>>>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>>>>   Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's
>>>>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the next
>>>>>>>>> GE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>>>>> leader.
>>>>>>>   <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>>>>> the general public when entering office.
>>>>
>>>> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
>>>> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
>>>> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they contested
>>>> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
>>>> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as party
>>>> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this
>>>> category at
>>>> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?
>>>
>>
>> No, led the Liberal Party to a landslide victory in the 1906 election.
>>
>
> Arthur Balfour, succeeded Salisbury when the latter resigned, his own
> resignation led to the next GE.

He resigned as PM, but remained party leader and led the party at the
1906 election (and lost).

Robin

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 13:17:26 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18/03/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times
>>>>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>>>>  That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>  else?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced
>>>>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung parliament
>>>>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law was
>>>>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at
>>>>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>>>>  Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's
>>>>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>>>>> leader.
>>>>>>>  <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>>>>> the general public when entering office.
>>>>
>>>> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
>>>> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
>>>> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they contested
>>>> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
>>>> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as party
>>>> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this category at
>>>> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?
>>>
>>
>> No, led the Liberal Party to a landslide victory in the 1906 election.
>>
>
>Arthur Balfour, succeeded Salisbury when the latter resigned, his own
>resignation led to the next GE.

Yes, but he's not the right answer to this question, as he did lead the party at subsequent general elections.

I'm pretty sure that Neville Chamberlain is the only other member of the Truss club of being PM without ever leading
their party at a GE.

On 18/03/2023 13:49, Bob wrote:
> On 18.03.23 14:17, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 18/03/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on
>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   No prime minister has ever been elected by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent
>>>>>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>>>>>   That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>   else?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald
>>>>>>>>>>>> replaced
>>>>>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung
>>>>>>>>>>>> parliament
>>>>>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a
>>>>>>>>>>>> party at
>>>>>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>>>>>   Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether
>>>>>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the
>>>>>>>>>> next GE.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>>>>>> leader.
>>>>>>>>   <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>>>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>>>>>> the general public when entering office.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
>>>>> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
>>>>> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they
>>>>> contested
>>>>> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
>>>>> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as
>>>>> party
>>>>> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this
>>>>> category at
>>>>> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, led the Liberal Party to a landslide victory in the 1906 election.
>>>
>>
>> Arthur Balfour, succeeded Salisbury when the latter resigned, his own
>> resignation led to the next GE.
>
> He resigned as PM, but remained party leader and led the party at the
> 1906 election (and lost).
>

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/03/2023 13:49, Bob wrote:
>> On 18.03.23 14:17, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   No prime minister has ever been elected by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>>>>>>   That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>   else?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald
>>>>>>>>>>>>> replaced
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung
>>>>>>>>>>>>> parliament
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> party at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>   Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether
>>>>>>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>>>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the
>>>>>>>>>>> next GE.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>>>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>>>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>>>>>>> leader.
>>>>>>>>>   <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>>>>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>>>>>>> the general public when entering office.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
>>>>>> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
>>>>>> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they
>>>>>> contested
>>>>>> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
>>>>>> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as
>>>>>> party
>>>>>> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this
>>>>>> category at
>>>>>> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, led the Liberal Party to a landslide victory in the 1906 election.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Arthur Balfour, succeeded Salisbury when the latter resigned, his own
>>> resignation led to the next GE.
>>
>> He resigned as PM, but remained party leader and led the party at the
>> 1906 election (and lost).
>>
>
> OK, short of googling it, I give up :-)

On 18/03/2023 16:54, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2023 13:49, Bob wrote:
>>> On 18.03.23 14:17, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   No prime minister has ever been elected by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   else?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> replaced
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parliament
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>>>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>>>>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>>>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>>>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the
>>>>>>>>>>>> next GE.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>>>>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>>>>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>>>>>>>> leader.
>>>>>>>>>>   <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>>>>>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>>>>>>>> the general public when entering office.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
>>>>>>> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
>>>>>>> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they
>>>>>>> contested
>>>>>>> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
>>>>>>> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as
>>>>>>> party
>>>>>>> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this
>>>>>>> category at
>>>>>>> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, led the Liberal Party to a landslide victory in the 1906 election.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Arthur Balfour, succeeded Salisbury when the latter resigned, his own
>>>> resignation led to the next GE.
>>>
>>> He resigned as PM, but remained party leader and led the party at the
>>> 1906 election (and lost).
>>>
>>
>> OK, short of googling it, I give up :-)
>
> I've already answered it up thread: Neville Chamberlain.
>
> I think it was a good question, that most people would struggle to answer.
>

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/03/2023 16:54, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2023 13:49, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 18.03.23 14:17, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 18/03/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 11:28, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 18.03.23 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tv1ak9$1s833$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:20 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 17.03.23 09:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <9UHhmj0b5BFkFAEh@perry.uk>, at 08:01:31 on Fri, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2023,  Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mar  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 16
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15  Mar  2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6%  of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   No prime minister has ever been elected by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electorate as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we  don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back  to WW2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   else?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1974 (II)  election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> April '76; Eden  (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> November  '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the '23  election  (election in December '23, MacDonald
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> replaced
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baldwin in  Jan '24. The  latter was a case of a hung
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parliament
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Baldwin  trying and failing  to continue as a minority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, so  perhaps should be discounted,  but Bonar Law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a case of illness  forcing his resignation and  replacement by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same party.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last  person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a general  election (either winning to become PM or losing,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ending their time as  PM)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And  Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an  invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and  lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a
>>>>>>>>>>>> prior general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Elections and won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively).  While
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunak hasn't done so yet, it seems fairly likely that he will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remain both party leader and PM going into whatever is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> next GE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they
>>>>>>>>>>>> became PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss,
>>>>>>>>>>>> which  is very tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as
>>>>>>>>>>>> leader.
>>>>>>>>>>>   <cough> What was that? All but Rishi and Truss *have* won a
>>>>>>>>>>> subsequent GE.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brown and Callaghan both fought a GE but lost,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not before they became PM. So they weren't in any sense selected by
>>>>>>>>> the general public when entering office.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since 1900, there have been 27 people to hold the office of PM. 19 of
>>>>>>>> them became PM other than at a General Election. 7 of them never won a
>>>>>>>> general election at all, and 2 of them lost the election they
>>>>>>>> contested
>>>>>>>> having become PM without a GE, but won a later election. 4 never
>>>>>>>> contested an election as PM, and 3 never contested an election as
>>>>>>>> party
>>>>>>>> leader. Of those 3, one is Sunak, so is likely to leave this
>>>>>>>> category at
>>>>>>>> the next GE. One is Truss. The question is who is the third.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Campbell-Bannerman perhaps?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, led the Liberal Party to a landslide victory in the 1906 election.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Arthur Balfour, succeeded Salisbury when the latter resigned, his own
>>>>> resignation led to the next GE.
>>>>
>>>> He resigned as PM, but remained party leader and led the party at the
>>>> 1906 election (and lost).
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK, short of googling it, I give up :-)
>>
>> I've already answered it up thread: Neville Chamberlain.
>>
>> I think it was a good question, that most people would struggle to answer.
>>
>
> Should have got that, he was a second or third cousin of SWMBO

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 17/03/2023 08:19, Recliner wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed, 15 Mar
>>>> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking 63.6%
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister by the
>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>
>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as we
>>>>>> don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>
>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so they are
>>>>> effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>
>>>> At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times was the
>>>> most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>
>>>> Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>
>>> Depends on how you define "recent times", everyone post-war lasted
>>> longer, with notables being Wilson after the 1974 (II) election:
>>> election October '74, Callaghan takes over April '76; Eden (election May
>>> '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>
>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election November '22,
>>> Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after the '23 election
>>> (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced Baldwin in Jan '24. The
>>> latter was a case of a hung parliament and Baldwin trying and failing to
>>> continue as a minority government, so perhaps should be discounted, but
>>> Bonar Law was a case of illness forcing his resignation and replacement
>>> by the same party.
>>>
>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the last
>>> person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at a general
>>> election (either winning to become PM or losing, ending their time as PM)?
>>>
>>
>> Liz Truss is probably going to be the answer to more pub quiz questions
>> than any other PM, before or since!
>>
>> So, here's a pre-emptive question: who can come up with the most pub quiz
>> questions to which Truss is the only possible answer (let's say, since
>> 1900)?
>
> Which (ex) Lib-dem became prime minister?

Good one. Here's another 'only Truss' question:

Which prime minister who gave a Bible reading at the State Funeral of a
beloved monarch had publicly called for the abolition of the monarchy less
than 30 years previously?

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:08:40 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 21:29:52 +0000
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:36:21 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On the BBC News last night they mentioned that SNP membership has plummeted
>>>> in 3 years to 70K. Oh dear.
>>>
>>Ah, "plummeted", another meaningless media buzzword. A lot of that
>
>Its certainly overused, but losing 40% of your members in 3 years can hardly
>be decribed as much else.
>
How many have other parties lost/gained in the same period? What has
been the longer term trend for each party? Have the other parties got
reliable figures for their Scottish memberships?

>>will be non-renewals after a increase in public enthusiasm when many
>>effectively donated rather than joined. In the long term the Tories
>>have been the greatest in decline since c.1950, LAB have declined at a
>>lower rate with a bigger drop between 1979-2015 before restoring to
>>higher level but still on the same general decline. The SNP still has
>>by far the highest proportion of the electorate in its membership.
>
>Fascinating. But Wee Jimmys attempt to play the woke crossdresser card has
>turned out to be probably the one of worst own goals by a party leader in the UK
>this century after Liz Truss and Corbyn.
>
The "crossdressers" have had support from all parties.

In message <tv17j4$1s3lc$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:33 on Fri, 17 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16 Mar
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16 Mar
>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed, 15
>>>>>> Mar 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>> 63.6% of the
>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister by the
>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as we
>>>>>>>> don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so they
>>>>>>> are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>
>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times was
>>>>>> the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>
>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>> That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went back
>>>> to WW2.
>>>>
>>>>> everyone
>>>> else?
>>>>
>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the 1974
>>>>> (II) election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over April '76;
>>>>> Eden (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>
>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election November
>>>>> '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after the '23
>>>>> election (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced Baldwin in
>>>>> Jan '24. The latter was a case of a hung parliament and Baldwin
>>>>> trying and failing to continue as a minority government, so perhaps
>>>>> should be discounted, but Bonar Law was a case of illness forcing
>>>>> his resignation and replacement by the same party.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>> last person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at a
>>>>> general election (either winning to become PM or losing, ending
>>>>> their time as PM)?
>>>> Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan. And
>>>> Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's an
>>>> invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>
>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections and
>>> lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>
>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a prior
>> general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>
>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General Elections and
>>> won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively). While Sunak hasn't done so
>>> yet, it seems fairly likely that he will remain both party leader and
>>> PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>>
>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they became
>> PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss, which is very
>> tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as leader.
>
>You failed to read the question: "Who was the last person to serve as Prime
>Minister who never led a party at a general election (either winning to
>become PM or losing, ending their time as PM)?"

I read it, and then responded in detail, explaining why I written what I
did. Perhaps you could go back and review that? Or maybe not, as perhaps
that encourages you to start another argument.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 04:30:52 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:08:40 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 21:29:52 +0000
>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:36:21 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On the BBC News last night they mentioned that SNP membership has
>plummeted
>>>>> in 3 years to 70K. Oh dear.
>>>>
>>>Ah, "plummeted", another meaningless media buzzword. A lot of that
>>
>>Its certainly overused, but losing 40% of your members in 3 years can hardly
>>be decribed as much else.
>>
>How many have other parties lost/gained in the same period? What has
>been the longer term trend for each party? Have the other parties got
>reliable figures for their Scottish memberships?

Who cares? The SNP lost 40% of its members in 3 years. End of. You can't
explain it away as anything other than a disaster.

>>Fascinating. But Wee Jimmys attempt to play the woke crossdresser card has
>>turned out to be probably the one of worst own goals by a party leader in the
>UK
>>this century after Liz Truss and Corbyn.
>>
>The "crossdressers" have had support from all parties.

No they didn't, and freaks in a dress being allowed in womens changing rooms
certainly doesn't have the support of the public.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tv17j4$1s3lc$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:33 on Fri, 17 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tuupsb$1c6ko$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:14 on Thu, 16 Mar
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 16.03.23 10:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <tuukg9$1b0vd$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:28 on Thu, 16 Mar
>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 16.03.23 08:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tut2p2$10amv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:50 on Wed, 15
>>>>>>> Mar 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 15:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:24:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 15/03/2023 11:52, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> He was elected by the people of Richmond, Yorkshire, taking
>>>>>>>>>>> 63.6% of the
>>>>>>>>>>> vote.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He might have been but he wasn't elected as prime minister by the
>>>>>>>>>> electorate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  No prime minister has ever been elected by the electorate as we
>>>>>>>>> don't have  a presidential system. HTH.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We always know who will be the PM for whichever party wins so they
>>>>>>>> are  effectively elected by the electorate.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  At least initially. New pub-quiz question: Who in recent times was
>>>>>>> the  most swiftly replaced (after a General Election)?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Cameron perhaps, 14 months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends on how you define "recent times",
>>>>> That's up to people offering candidate answers. I think I went back
>>>>> to WW2.
>>>>>
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>> else?
>>>>>
>>>>>> post-war lasted longer, with notables being Wilson after the 1974
>>>>>> (II) election: election October '74, Callaghan takes over April '76;
>>>>>> Eden (election May '55, Macmillan back in Jan '57).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The real short ones were after the '22 election (election November
>>>>>> '22, Baldwin replaced Bonar Law in May '23, and after the '23
>>>>>> election (election in December '23, MacDonald replaced Baldwin in
>>>>>> Jan '24. The latter was a case of a hung parliament and Baldwin
>>>>>> trying and failing to continue as a minority government, so perhaps
>>>>>> should be discounted, but Bonar Law was a case of illness forcing
>>>>>> his resignation and replacement by the same party.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another interesting one that came up with Liz Truss: Who was the
>>>>>> last person to serve as Prime Minister who never led a party at a
>>>>>> general election (either winning to become PM or losing, ending
>>>>>> their time as PM)?
>>>>> Off the cuff: Gordon Brown and Rishi Sunak; earlier Callaghan. And
>>>>> Boris's/May/Major's first term, depending on whether there's an
>>>>> invisible "previously" in front of "led".
>>>>
>>>> Brown and Callaghan both led their parties into General elections and
>>>> lost (2010 and 1979 respectively).
>>>
>>> Callaghan became PM in 1976, so wasn't "on the ballot paper" at a prior
>>> general election. Ditto Brown's career.
>>>
>>>> Major, May and Johnson all led their parties into General Elections and
>>>> won[1] (1992, 2017 and 2019 respectively). While Sunak hasn't done so
>>>> yet, it seems fairly likely that he will remain both party leader and
>>>> PM going into whatever is the next GE.
>>>
>>> But none of them were "on the ballot paper" at the GE before they became
>>> PM, although obviously all but Rishi (and I forgot Truss, which is very
>>> tempting on many grounds) haven't [yet] won a GE as leader.
>>
>> You failed to read the question: "Who was the last person to serve as Prime
>> Minister who never led a party at a general election (either winning to
>> become PM or losing, ending their time as PM)?"
>
> I read it, and then responded in detail, explaining why I written what I
> did. Perhaps you could go back and review that? Or maybe not, as perhaps
> that encourages you to start another argument.

It was a clever question that most people understood, but couldn't answer
correctly. You, on the other hand, didn't even understand the question.
Instead of admitting your obvious mistake, you inevitably start an argume
to 'prove' you were right.