On 15/07/2023 9:11 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 14/07/2023 7:47 am, Noddy wrote:

>> There is nothing "illegal" about manual transmissions, and claiming
>> that they "soon will be" is utterly nonsensical. The main reason most
>> manufacturers don't offer them any more is because the overwhelming
>> majority of buyers don't *want* them.
>
> **Sure, that's a big part, but in places like the UK, you will not be
> able to buy a manual gearbox car after 2030:
>
> https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/the-future-of-manual-cars
>
> "Are manual cars going away?
>
> In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
> there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel cars.

So here we have the reality rearing it's ugly head. There is no ban on
manual transmissions specifically, but a ban on ICE powered vehicles in
general which will mean an end to manual transmissions, automatic
transmissions, hydraulic power steering, radiators and anything *else*
associated with ICE powered vehicles.

*Jesus* you're a whackjob :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 15/07/2023 9:07 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 14/07/2023 12:22 pm, Daryl wrote:

>> Same applies to current models, overall gearing makes a difference as
>> does how and where they are driven.
>
> **Of course, but driven under identical conditions, by an average
> driver, a modern auto will be more fuel efficient.

If you'd be so kind, take a moment to amuse us all by explaining exactly
what it is about "modern autos" that make this possible.

And please. Be precise. We all know how much you desire for precise
description.....

>> Very likely but I haven't looked at the full range.
>> Interesting that quite a few people are spending lots of money to
>> convert "F1" trans Ferrari's to gated manuals which increases their
>> value very significantly.
>
> **We are talking about buying new cars here.

You think you are, but you clearly have no idea. For example, you seem
to think autonomous emergency braking is a practical impossibility with
a manual transmission, yet you are completely oblivious to the fact that
such vehicles exist on the market as we speak.

For example, Mazda's base model single cab ute, which itself is based on
an Isuzu D-Max, comes with manual trans and autonomous emergency braking
straight off the showroom floor.

Other vehicles do as well. Perhaps you should look around and educate
yourself rather than firing off your unfounded ignorant opinions and
making a complete fool of yourself.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 15/7/2023 9:07 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 14/07/2023 12:22 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 14/7/2023 11:12 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 14/07/2023 10:28 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 14/7/2023 7:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 13/07/2023 10:20 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/7/2023 9:29 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/07/2023 9:01 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 13/07/2023 6:41 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 13/07/2023 8:28 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 13/07/2023 8:00 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Much like manual gearboxes, regular ICE cars are being
>>>>>>>>>>> legislated out of existence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Really? Manual gearboxes are illegal?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **They will be very soon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On what basis?
>>>>>>>>   > Not yet, of course, but it is VERY hard to
>>>>>>>>> find a car fitted with one right now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, they're getting hard to find, but that has nothing to do
>>>>>>>> with legality. A lot of manufacturers don't offer them any more
>>>>>>>> because the majority of buyers don't *want* them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nah, it's just that the majority of buyers aren't competent
>>>>>>> enough to use them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL, sad but true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **Why is it sad?
>>>>
>>>> Because too many people will never get to enjoy driving a real
>>>> sports car.
>>>> Too many people have almost no idea how to drive, their cars just
>>>> about do everything for them.
>>>
>>> **Sure. Then go drive a Model T Ford. Now that car was challenging to
>>> drive. Doesn't make it better though.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I enjoy/d using a manual gearbox, but facts are facts. Autos are
>>>>> more fuel efficient, longer lasting (for the most part), faster
>>>>> shifting, able to determine the optimum gear that the vast majority
>>>>> of drivers cannot and interact with modern safety systems in ways
>>>>> that manuals cannot.
>>>>
>>>> Not always more fuel efficient, it depends on overall gearing.
>>>
>>> **Just so you understand, we are talking about current generation
>>> autos, not 20 year old ones.
>>
>> Same applies to current models, overall gearing makes a difference as
>> does how and where they are driven.
>
> **Of course, but driven under identical conditions, by an average
> driver, a modern auto will be more fuel efficient.
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> We used to own a 2001 Corolla manual, our friends had the same year
>>>> Corolla auto, the auto was taller geared so it used less fuel at hwy
>>>> speeds but the manual used less at city speeds so its not cut and
>>>> dried.
>>>> My wife's Golf is amazingly fuel efficient on a long drive and still
>>>> very good overall, it has a 7spd dual clutch "auto" which is really
>>>> an automated manual.
>>>
>>> **It is an auto.
>>
>> Sort of, best of both worlds.
>
> **It is an auto.

Yes and no, its an automated dual clutch manual gearbox so it has no
torque convertor which is where the difference is.

I can manually select what gear I want to use in my
> Levorg (using those flappy paddle things and selecting 'Manual') or in
> my Stagea, simply selecting 'Manual' and moving the gear lever up or
> down. I am under no illusions though. Both cars are automatic. In fact,
> so damned good is the auto in the Levorg that I never use the flappy
> paddles. When driving hard, I select the 'Sports #' mode in the Levorg
> and it anticipates what I would want to do, had I been using a manual
> gearbox. It's fast and highly intuitive. Even better, when I plonk it in
> 'puttering around town' mode, it returns a fairly respectable 7.2L/100km
> fuel consumption. Not too shabby.

AFAIK the Levorg uses a CVT trans?
When we bought the WRX we test drove an auto and hated it, the car just
seemed sluggish compared to the manual, the 0-100 times are only
slightly slower than a manual but it just felt wrong in that type of car.
I've driven other Subaru models with CVT's including an XV we test drove
recently and I though that the trans was very good but IMHO it just
doesn't feel right in a performance model.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Go find a current model Porsche fitted with a manual. Bet you
>>>>> can't. That should tell you all you need to know.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 718 Boxster is available in manual.
>>>
>>> **Boxster - The hairdresser's Porsche.
>>
>> Idiot,
>
> **Not my description. I have a mate who owns and has owned a slew of
> Porsches (and one Ferrari). He is a 911 (and, once a 930) guy. He
> describes the Boxster ad a hairdresser's car.

Well then he is a stuck up imbecile, a lot of 911 owners get annoyed
when a Boxster easily beats them around a corner so they put shit on
them, they also gets pissed that the 911 and Boxster share a lot of
parts and its half the price.
From the rear of the doors forward my 986 Boxster is almost identical
to a 996 911, interior is identical as is all the front body panels,
steering suspension and brakes.
Your idiot mate should be happy with Boxsters because they and Cayenne's
saved Porsche from bankruptcy, without them there would be no Porsche

--
Daryl

On 15/7/2023 9:11 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 14/07/2023 7:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 7:18 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 13/07/2023 10:14 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Really? Manual gearboxes are illegal?
>>>>>
>>>>> **They will be very soon.
>>>>
>>>> ROTFL.
>>>> Please define "soon"?
>>>
>>> **5 years.
>>
>> ROTFL :)
>>
>>>> Is it, hang on a minute I just found one in my garage so not that
>>>> hard to find:-)
>>>> Do you mean new cars, if so there is still plenty about if you want
>>>> one, just go to a Subaru dealer, we were at a Subaru dealer about a
>>>> month ago and they had quite a few manual cars for sale.
>>>> Mate is in the UK at the moment, I spoke to him 3 hours ago and the
>>>> car he rented is a manual as are an awful lot of small cars in the
>>>> UK, manuals are getting rarer in Australia but not in other countries.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> **There is only ONE Subaru model available with a manual gearbox. And
>>> Subaru was a bit sneaky with it's latest release.
>>
>> What was sneaky about it?
>
> **This:
>
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-gr86-subaru-brz-ancap-no-plans/

That means that there are least 2 Subaru models available with a manual
trans, the BRZ and the WRX.
>
>
>>
>> There is nothing "illegal" about manual transmissions, and claiming
>> that they "soon will be" is utterly nonsensical. The main reason most
>> manufacturers don't offer them any more is because the overwhelming
>> majority of buyers don't *want* them.
>
> **Sure, that's a big part, but in places like the UK, you will not be
> able to buy a manual gearbox car after 2030:
>
> https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/the-future-of-manual-cars
>
> "Are manual cars going away?
>
> In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
> there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel cars.
> That, by default, rules out manual cars, as all electric cars are
> automatic. The ban will only restrict the sale of petrol and diesel
> cars, though. Those that are already on the road can continue to be
> driven. So, manual cars aren’t going to instantly disappear, but they’re
> definitely on track to becoming a relic of the past."
>
> Other nations are doing likewise. It is just a matter of time before
> Australia does the same.

Unlikely that that will actually happen, Germany is refusing to comply
with a similar EU rule.
In Australia where the best selling vehicles are twin cab utes and no
one makes anything EV that is even close to replacing those what are
people going to buy?
The Ford F150 Lightning is one EV ute that has proved to be utterly
useful for towing (dramatically reduced range) and its also mega
expensive, unless there is a very dramatic improvement in battery tech
physics will defeat the EV ute.
The most likely replacement is diesels running on hydrogen and they are
some time away despite diesels for JCB heavy equipment running on
hydrogen being in full production by the end of this year.

--
Daryl

On 15/7/2023 9:29 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 8:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 10:45 am, Daryl wrote:
>
>>>> **A combination of factors, including:
>>>>
>>>> * Modern safety systems that rely on an auto gearbox.
>>>
>>> Which systems would they be?
>>> Autonomous emergency braking would still work with a manual, it may
>>> stall the engine but it would still do what it needed to, what else?
>>
>> **As many people can attest, an inconveniently stalled car can
>> represent a very serious safety hazard.
>
> A manual car would only ever be stalled if it came to a complete stop
> from the application of autonomous emergency braking, and your argument
> is invalid in any case given that many people who do so in manual cars
> without AEB stall their engines anyway.
>
>>> Not always correct, in some cases that may be true, in others not,
>>> depends on how and where (city or hwy) they are driven.
>>
>> **Sure. A VERY good driver can extract slightly better fuel economy
>> from a manual gearbox, compared to older style autos. Modern autos are
>> more economical though.
>
> It has nothing to do with the driver, Trevor. It's about the different
> types of mechanical connection between the engine and transmission.
>
> It's that simple.
>
>>> Nonsense on both counts.
>>
>> **We'll see. The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars off
>> the road, starting in 2030. And that is from a right wing government,
>> I might add.
>
> That's the second time now that you've posted this nonsense without a
> cite to back it up.
>
> Any reason for that?
>
>
>
>
Interesting that the UK is doing some rather odd things with emissions
rules.
Around London they have a "ULEZ" ultra low emission zone, I recently
watched a YouTube video about someone discussing what vehicles do and
don't comply with the ULEZ rules, I found it rather odd that my 21yr old
Porsche is classed as a low emission vehicle and meets the ULEZ rules,
some much newer cars don't comply.

--
Daryl

On 15/07/2023 1:38 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 15/7/2023 9:29 am, Noddy wrote:

>> That's the second time now that you've posted this nonsense without a
>> cite to back it up.
>>
>> Any reason for that?
>>
>>
> Interesting that the UK is doing some rather odd things with emissions
> rules.
> Around London they have a "ULEZ" ultra low emission zone, I recently
> watched a YouTube video about someone discussing what vehicles do and
> don't comply with the ULEZ rules, I found it rather odd that my 21yr old
> Porsche is classed as a low emission vehicle and meets the ULEZ rules,
> some much newer cars don't comply.

Be that as it may, there is nothing the English have done anywhere that
specifically outlaws manual transmissions, and Trevor's claims that they
have are a load of ridiculous crap.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 15/7/2023 9:23 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 8:54 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 7:42 am, Noddy wrote:
>
>>>> * Modern safety systems that rely on an auto gearbox.
>>>
>>> Really? Which ones in particular?
>>
>> **Automatic braking, for one.
>
> Autonomous braking is *not* reliant on the presence of an automatic
> transmission and will work just as effectively with a manual trans. Thst
> you are completely ignorant of this does not make it reality.

Ah, not quite. An unexpected emergency stop is likely to stall the
engine. That makes it unlikely you can perform a second or third
avoidance manoeuvre after the car has avoided the *first* obstacle.
>
>>> Trevor, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.
>>> Manual transmission equipped vehicles always return slightly better
>>> fuel economy than the same vehicle with a conventional automatic
>>> transmission do to the fact that they don't run a torque converter.
>>
>> **That assumes that ALL manual gearbox drivers know what they're doing.
>
> It assumes no such thing at all and instead is based on the mechanical
> reality of manual transmissions being locked to the crankshaft in every
> gear whereas torque converters are not.

You might find that *some* TCL clutches come into operation in gear
ratios other than top or O/Drive. You see, they can only ever operate in
*low torque* situations anyway because they are typically single face
clutches. The moment the vehicle transitions from cruise to
acceleration, they drop out. But this still means they are improving
*fuel economy*. And acceleration runs mixtures *richer* than stoich
anyway. As an example, here's an interesting snippet related to the
10R80 trans in *your Ford*;

“With a low 1st gear ratio of 4.696, the torque converter basically
aids in a smooth launch, *then quickly locks up and stays that way*".

https://www.blueovaltrucks.com/tech-articles/ford-10r80-10-speed-automatic-transmission/

You know what that means Darren? It means that your TCL clutch can be
*locked up* in any and every gear. If you were accelerating hard, it
won't be locked up and it will be using the torque converter as a
*torque multiplier*. In any low torque acceleration or cruise situation
it will be locked up and that is purely to reduce fuel consumption. Fuel
consumption minimisation, BTW, is a *government mandated requirement*
placed upon car manufacturers in most jurisdictions these days

>
> You apparently have zero understanding of this.

You certainly don't! Try to not project that flaw of yours onto others
Darren. FWIW, you have an *extremely simplistic view* of auto trans and
that is to be expected of someone who has never done an automotive
apprenticeship nor done any auto trans training. You've proven this many
times in the past and no doubt you will continue to do so in the future,
such is your ego. FFS, the trans in *your own truck* proves you're full
of shit!
>
>> I am quite certain that many (probably most) do not.
>
> Really? And you base this on what exactly?

The number of people these days who cannot drive a manual car, dummy!
>
> Personally I find it hilarious that someone who insists that AWD makes a
> difference to a vechicle's handling could ever have the audacity to make
> any declaration about anyone *else's* driving ability :)

From a clown who knows *nothing* about handling dynamics. This is so so
funny.
>
> Talk about Dunning-Kruger :)

Indeed, talk about it, you're a shining example of it.
>
>> Additionally, CVT transmission equipped cars return superior fuel
>> economy to their manual equivalents.
>
> That's because they have an unlimited number of ratios, and has nothing
> whatsoever to do with them being "automatic".
>
> Jesus....

They are still a *clutchless automatic* no matter how you try to rejig
it. Indeed, CVTs still retain a power sapping hydraulic pump *and* a
torque converter yet *still* get fuel economy equal to or better than a
manual. The reason being that the CVT is much better at keeping the
engine in the most fuel efficient engine speed range at all times during
cruise. It also keeps the engine in the most efficient range when
accelerating and that is also beneficial for fuel economy.
>
>>>> Both reasons will see them legislated out of existence, possibly
>>>> with some rare exceptions. Either way, they're going to be pretty
>>>> much impossible to find in the not too distant future.
>>>
>>> They very well may be, but not for any illegality reasons.
>>
>> **The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars off the road
>> from 2030. It is just a matter of time before other places follow.
>
> Have they really?

Note the word *effectively* Darren. It's obviously a nuance you don't
get. Not unexpected since you're a concrete thinker!
>
> Please, point to the legislation that specifically bans manual
> transmission equipped cars after 2030. I'd be delighted to read it.
>
> Don't worry. I'm not holding my breath that you'll ever come up with it.
>
>>> You're just making this shit up to suit yourself.
>>
>> **So you say, but the facts are far more prosaic.
>
> I'm quite convinced that "facts" are something you don't deal with well.

FFS, I wasn't aware you were even aware of the concept of *facts*, so
little do you rely upon them.

Hey, *facts* can be proven. How about proving your claim(s) to trade
qualifications and various others that you claim to be *facts*.
>
>  >  The world is rapidly moving towards the following types of cars:
>
>> * Hybrids. The Toyota (and others) hybrid system, a CVT transmission
>> is necessary to ensure a smooth combination of ICE and EV.
>> * PHEVs. These are basically EVs (like the Mitsubishi system), where
>> an ICE charges a battery, which, in turn drives electric motors.
>> * BEVs. You know about these.
>> * Fuel cell. Basically a variant on an EV.
>
> Yes, they are. But what does any of that irrelevant crap have to to with
> making manual transmissions illegal?

Hybrids and PHEVs use CVTs, BEVs are direct drive, no manual trans in
sight. If you ban petrol and diesel engines, there will be *no need* for
manual transmissions so you have effectively banned those at the same time.
>
>> Since governments are driving CO2 emissions down, they will legislate
>> ICE (only) cars off the roads. That leave one of the above four
>> systems to choose from. NONE can use a manual gearbox, nor is one
>> required.
>
> So *that's* the logic behind this nonsense, is it? Manual transmissions
> will be made illegal because ICE's will be.
>
> Jesus Christ.... :)

Sorry Darren, he won't help you so no need to use his name in vain.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/7/2023 9:29 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 8:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 10:45 am, Daryl wrote:
>
>>>> **A combination of factors, including:
>>>>
>>>> * Modern safety systems that rely on an auto gearbox.
>>>
>>> Which systems would they be?
>>> Autonomous emergency braking would still work with a manual, it may
>>> stall the engine but it would still do what it needed to, what else?
>>
>> **As many people can attest, an inconveniently stalled car can
>> represent a very serious safety hazard.
>
> A manual car would only ever be stalled if it came to a complete stop
> from the application of autonomous emergency braking, and your argument
> is invalid in any case given that many people who do so in manual cars
> without AEB stall their engines anyway.
>
>>> Not always correct, in some cases that may be true, in others not,
>>> depends on how and where (city or hwy) they are driven.
>>
>> **Sure. A VERY good driver can extract slightly better fuel economy
>> from a manual gearbox, compared to older style autos. Modern autos are
>> more economical though.
>
> It has nothing to do with the driver, Trevor. It's about the different
> types of mechanical connection between the engine and transmission.
>
> It's that simple.

The pity of it is that you are too simple to get it.
>
>>> Nonsense on both counts.
>>
>> **We'll see. The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars off
>> the road, starting in 2030. And that is from a right wing government,
>> I might add.
>
> That's the second time now that you've posted this nonsense without a
> cite to back it up.
>
> Any reason for that?
>
>
>
>

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/7/2023 1:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 9:07 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 12:22 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Same applies to current models, overall gearing makes a difference as
>>> does how and where they are driven.
>>
>> **Of course, but driven under identical conditions, by an average
>> driver, a modern auto will be more fuel efficient.
>
> If you'd be so kind, take a moment to amuse us all by explaining exactly
> what it is about "modern autos" that make this possible.
>
> And please. Be precise. We all know how much you desire for precise
> description.....
>

Here, a description of the *efficiency measures* in auto trans as they
relate to the trans in your Ranger.

https://www.blueovaltrucks.com/tech-articles/ford-10r80-10-speed-automatic-transmission/

Seriously Darren, you're such a clown.
>
>>> Very likely but I haven't looked at the full range.
>>> Interesting that quite a few people are spending lots of money to
>>> convert "F1" trans Ferrari's to gated manuals which increases their
>>> value very significantly.
>>
>> **We are talking about buying new cars here.
>
> You think you are, but you clearly have no idea. For example, you seem
> to think autonomous emergency braking is a practical impossibility with
> a manual transmission, yet you are completely oblivious to the fact that
> such vehicles exist on the market as we speak.
>
> For example, Mazda's base model single cab ute, which itself is based on
> an Isuzu D-Max, comes with manual trans and autonomous emergency braking
> straight off the showroom floor.
>
> Other vehicles do as well. Perhaps you should look around and educate
> yourself rather than firing off your unfounded ignorant opinions and
> making a complete fool of yourself.
>

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/7/2023 1:17 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 15/7/2023 9:07 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 12:22 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 14/7/2023 11:12 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 14/07/2023 10:28 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>> On 14/7/2023 7:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/07/2023 10:20 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/7/2023 9:29 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 13/07/2023 9:01 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 13/07/2023 6:41 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 13/07/2023 8:28 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 13/07/2023 8:00 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Much like manual gearboxes, regular ICE cars are being
>>>>>>>>>>>> legislated out of existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Really? Manual gearboxes are illegal?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **They will be very soon.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On what basis?
>>>>>>>>>   > Not yet, of course, but it is VERY hard to
>>>>>>>>>> find a car fitted with one right now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, they're getting hard to find, but that has nothing to do
>>>>>>>>> with legality. A lot of manufacturers don't offer them any more
>>>>>>>>> because the majority of buyers don't *want* them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nah, it's just that the majority of buyers aren't competent
>>>>>>>> enough to use them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LOL, sad but true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Why is it sad?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because too many people will never get to enjoy driving a real
>>>>> sports car.
>>>>> Too many people have almost no idea how to drive, their cars just
>>>>> about do everything for them.
>>>>
>>>> **Sure. Then go drive a Model T Ford. Now that car was challenging
>>>> to drive. Doesn't make it better though.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I enjoy/d using a manual gearbox, but facts are facts. Autos are
>>>>>> more fuel efficient, longer lasting (for the most part), faster
>>>>>> shifting, able to determine the optimum gear that the vast
>>>>>> majority of drivers cannot and interact with modern safety systems
>>>>>> in ways that manuals cannot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not always more fuel efficient, it depends on overall gearing.
>>>>
>>>> **Just so you understand, we are talking about current generation
>>>> autos, not 20 year old ones.
>>>
>>> Same applies to current models, overall gearing makes a difference as
>>> does how and where they are driven.
>>
>> **Of course, but driven under identical conditions, by an average
>> driver, a modern auto will be more fuel efficient.
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> We used to own a 2001 Corolla manual, our friends had the same year
>>>>> Corolla auto, the auto was taller geared so it used less fuel at
>>>>> hwy speeds but the manual used less at city speeds so its not cut
>>>>> and dried.
>>>>> My wife's Golf is amazingly fuel efficient on a long drive and
>>>>> still very good overall, it has a 7spd dual clutch "auto" which is
>>>>> really an automated manual.
>>>>
>>>> **It is an auto.
>>>
>>> Sort of, best of both worlds.
>>
>> **It is an auto.
>
> Yes and no, its an automated dual clutch manual gearbox so it has no
> torque convertor which is where the difference is.

Yes, it is an auto. The absence of a *clutch* and the trans' ability to
shift for itself makes it an auto.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/7/2023 1:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 15/7/2023 9:11 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 7:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 14/07/2023 7:18 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 13/07/2023 10:14 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Really? Manual gearboxes are illegal?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **They will be very soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> ROTFL.
>>>>> Please define "soon"?
>>>>
>>>> **5 years.
>>>
>>> ROTFL :)
>>>
>>>>> Is it, hang on a minute I just found one in my garage so not that
>>>>> hard to find:-)
>>>>> Do you mean new cars, if so there is still plenty about if you want
>>>>> one, just go to a Subaru dealer, we were at a Subaru dealer about a
>>>>> month ago and they had quite a few manual cars for sale.
>>>>> Mate is in the UK at the moment, I spoke to him 3 hours ago and the
>>>>> car he rented is a manual as are an awful lot of small cars in the
>>>>> UK, manuals are getting rarer in Australia but not in other countries.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **There is only ONE Subaru model available with a manual gearbox.
>>>> And Subaru was a bit sneaky with it's latest release.
>>>
>>> What was sneaky about it?
>>
>> **This:
>>
>> https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-gr86-subaru-brz-ancap-no-plans/
>
> That means that there are least 2 Subaru models available with a manual
> trans, the BRZ and the WRX.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> There is nothing "illegal" about manual transmissions, and claiming
>>> that they "soon will be" is utterly nonsensical. The main reason most
>>> manufacturers don't offer them any more is because the overwhelming
>>> majority of buyers don't *want* them.
>>
>> **Sure, that's a big part, but in places like the UK, you will not be
>> able to buy a manual gearbox car after 2030:
>>
>> https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/the-future-of-manual-cars
>>
>> "Are manual cars going away?
>>
>> In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
>> there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel
>> cars. That, by default, rules out manual cars, as all electric cars
>> are automatic. The ban will only restrict the sale of petrol and
>> diesel cars, though. Those that are already on the road can continue
>> to be driven. So, manual cars aren’t going to instantly disappear, but
>> they’re definitely on track to becoming a relic of the past."
>>
>> Other nations are doing likewise. It is just a matter of time before
>> Australia does the same.
>
> Unlikely that that will actually happen, Germany is refusing to comply
> with a similar EU rule.
> In Australia where the best selling vehicles are twin cab utes and no
> one makes anything EV that is even close to replacing those what are
> people going to buy?
> The Ford F150 Lightning is one EV ute that has proved to be utterly
> useful for towing (dramatically reduced range) and its also mega

Useful? I'd have said *utterly useless* given the range reduction when
used for towing.

> expensive, unless there is a very dramatic improvement in battery tech
> physics will defeat the EV ute.
> The most likely replacement is diesels running on hydrogen and they are
> some time away despite diesels for JCB heavy equipment running on
> hydrogen being in full production by the end of this year.
>
>
>
>

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/07/2023 8:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:

> **Sure. A VERY good driver can extract slightly better fuel economy from
> a manual gearbox, compared to older style autos. Modern autos are more
> economical though.

Any competent driver can.

> **We'll see. The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars off
> the road, starting in 2030. And that is from a right wing government, I
> might add.

Bullshit, there is no ban on manual gearboxes, the *proposed* ban is on
all IC vehicles no matter what type of transmission they have.

"In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel cars.
That, by default, rules out manual cars, as all electric cars are
automatic. The ban will only restrict the sale of petrol and diesel
cars, though. Those that are already on the road can continue to be
driven. So, manual cars aren’t going to instantly disappear, but they’re
definitely on track to becoming a relic of the past."

Note that the article says that electric cars are automatics which is
garbage as electric cars do not need variable ratio transmission.

On 15/07/2023 3:34 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 8:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>> **Sure. A VERY good driver can extract slightly better fuel economy
>> from a manual gearbox, compared to older style autos. Modern autos are
>> more economical though.
>
> Any competent driver can.

They can, but it's not the driver. All else being equal the mechanical
link between an engine and a manual gearbox is *more* efficient than
that of a torque converter.

Trevor just keeps on repeating his bullshit claim ad infinitum because
he doesn't understand what it is he's talking about.

>> **We'll see. The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars off
>> the road, starting in 2030. And that is from a right wing government,
>> I might add.
>
> Bullshit, there is no ban on manual gearboxes, the *proposed* ban is on
> all IC vehicles no matter what type of transmission they have.

Yep, which is nothing like what he claimed at all :)

> "In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
> there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel cars.
> That, by default, rules out manual cars, as all electric cars are
> automatic. The ban will only restrict the sale of petrol and diesel
> cars, though. Those that are already on the road can continue to be
> driven. So, manual cars aren’t going to instantly disappear, but they’re
> definitely on track to becoming a relic of the past."
>
> Note that the article says that electric cars are automatics which is
> garbage as electric cars do not need variable ratio transmission.

Indeed.

Trevor has done nothing here but ranted on with a completely false
narrative. In the first instance his claim that manual transmissions
were going to be banned is false as there is no such specific ban either
in place or intended whatsoever. A ban on ICE powered cars, sure, and as
a consequence the end of everything associated with them including
manual transmissions. But that's *not* what he said.

In the second, his initial claim that manual transmissions were being
made "illegal" because they couldn't comply with Autonomous Emergency
Braking requirements is *also* false, as there are vehicles with manual
transmissions and AEB on the market right now. A fact that he seems to
be completely oblivious of.

His whole story is bullshit that he's made up to suit himself, and in
doing so he's made himself look remarkably ignorant and totally ridiculous.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 15/7/2023 3:34 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 8:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>> **Sure. A VERY good driver can extract slightly better fuel economy
>> from a manual gearbox, compared to older style autos. Modern autos are
>> more economical though.
>
> Any competent driver can.
>
>> **We'll see. The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars off
>> the road, starting in 2030. And that is from a right wing government,
>> I might add.
>
> Bullshit, there is no ban on manual gearboxes, the *proposed* ban is on
> all IC vehicles no matter what type of transmission they have.
>
> "In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
> there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel cars.
> That, by default, rules out manual cars, as all electric cars are
> automatic. The ban will only restrict the sale of petrol and diesel
> cars, though. Those that are already on the road can continue to be
> driven. So, manual cars aren’t going to instantly disappear, but they’re
> definitely on track to becoming a relic of the past."
>
> Note that the article says that electric cars are automatics which is
> garbage as electric cars do not need variable ratio transmission.
>

Just shows that a lot of people don't know very much about the subjects
they are writing about and that gullible people believe what they read
without question.

--
Daryl

On 15/7/2023 3:34 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 8:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>> **Sure. A VERY good driver can extract slightly better fuel economy
>> from a manual gearbox, compared to older style autos. Modern autos are
>> more economical though.
>
> Any competent driver can.
>
>> **We'll see. The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars off
>> the road, starting in 2030. And that is from a right wing government,
>> I might add.
>
> Bullshit, there is no ban on manual gearboxes, the *proposed* ban is on
> all IC vehicles no matter what type of transmission they have.
>
> "In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
> there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel cars.
> That, by default, rules out manual cars, as all electric cars are
> automatic. The ban will only restrict the sale of petrol and diesel
> cars, though. Those that are already on the road can continue to be
> driven. So, manual cars aren’t going to instantly disappear, but they’re
> definitely on track to becoming a relic of the past."
>
> Note that the article says that electric cars are automatics which is
> garbage as electric cars do not need variable ratio transmission.
>
You may need to rejig your thinking on that score.

https://press.zf.com/press/en/releases/release_10181.html

Used in the Porsche Taycan and Audi E-Tron GT.

How does ZF's two-speed EV transmission work?

ZF's universal drive unit, offering a turn-key drivetrain
for manufacturers looking to develop a mainstream EV,
incorporates a 140kW electric motor and, crucially, a
game-changing two-speed gearbox.

At low speeds and in stop-start traffic, an electric motor
is at its most efficient, offering regenerative braking to
recoup power under deceleration and without power-sapping
drag to fight. But at cruising speed, the rapidly spinning
motor puts a high demand on the battery, compounded by
aerodynamic and tyre resistance.

However, when vehicles fitted with ZF’s new unit pass
70km/h, the gearbox shifts up into its taller cruising
ratio, lowering the motor’s RPM for greater efficiency and
optimised torque.

Until now, manufacturers have had to choose between
low-speed torque or high-speed efficiency and lock that
decision into the single gear ratio, but this potentially
revolutionary twin-ratio solution is offering something
closer to the best of both worlds.

----

As with manual and automatic gearboxes, expect to see EV
transmissions with more ratios. ZF is up to nine in its
automatics for ICE, and more cogs in an EV gearbox will
bring similar benefits – more potent acceleration and
torque, increased motor life, and longer cruising range.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/zf-2-speed-ev-transmission-explained#

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/7/2023 4:53 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 15/7/2023 3:34 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>> On 15/07/2023 8:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>> **Sure. A VERY good driver can extract slightly better fuel economy
>>> from a manual gearbox, compared to older style autos. Modern autos
>>> are more economical though.
>>
>> Any competent driver can.
>>
>>> **We'll see. The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars
>>> off the road, starting in 2030. And that is from a right wing
>>> government, I might add.
>>
>> Bullshit, there is no ban on manual gearboxes, the *proposed* ban is
>> on all IC vehicles no matter what type of transmission they have.
>>
>> "In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
>> there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel
>> cars. That, by default, rules out manual cars, as all electric cars
>> are automatic. The ban will only restrict the sale of petrol and
>> diesel cars, though. Those that are already on the road can continue
>> to be driven. So, manual cars aren’t going to instantly disappear, but
>> they’re definitely on track to becoming a relic of the past."
>>
>> Note that the article says that electric cars are automatics which is
>> garbage as electric cars do not need variable ratio transmission.
>>
>
>
> Just shows that a lot of people don't know very much about the subjects
> they are writing about and that gullible people believe what they read
> without question.
>
You are living proof of that!

https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/zf-2-speed-ev-transmission-explained#

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/07/2023 4:53 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 15/7/2023 3:34 pm, Keithr0 wrote:

>> Note that the article says that electric cars are automatics which is
>> garbage as electric cars do not need variable ratio transmission.
>
> Just shows that a lot of people don't know very much about the subjects
> they are writing about and that gullible people believe what they read
> without question.

I think in Trevor's case he was deliberately twisting the truth.
Especially the bit about manual transmissions being made "illegal"
because they didn't conform to safety requirements which was nonsensical
bullshit.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 15/7/2023 5:30 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 4:53 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 15/7/2023 3:34 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>
>>> Note that the article says that electric cars are automatics which is
>>> garbage as electric cars do not need variable ratio transmission.
>>
>> Just shows that a lot of people don't know very much about the
>> subjects they are writing about and that gullible people believe what
>> they read without question.
>
> I think in Trevor's case he was deliberately twisting the truth.

You're a fine one to talk Darren! You absolutely *maim* the truth in
*all* your dealings.

> Especially the bit about manual transmissions being made "illegal"
> because they didn't conform to safety requirements which was nonsensical
> bullshit.
>
>
>
>

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/07/2023 9:07 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:

> **Not my description. I have a mate who owns and has owned a slew of
> Porsches (and one Ferrari). He is a 911 (and, once a 930) guy. He
> describes the Boxster ad a hairdresser's car.

OK define what constitutes a "Hairdresser's car" and explain what it is
about the boxcar that makes it one.

I think that your friend has a superiority complex and looks down on
machinery cheaper than the exotica that he can afford.

I've seen the same attitude in the HiFi fraternity, sneering at gear
that produces a similar result, but at a reasonable price.

PS. Your friend wouldn't be able to enjoy a new 911 if not for the
Boxster, Porsche were going broke, the Boxster sales saved the company.

On 15/07/2023 5:06 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 15/7/2023 3:34 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>> On 15/07/2023 8:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>> **Sure. A VERY good driver can extract slightly better fuel economy
>>> from a manual gearbox, compared to older style autos. Modern autos
>>> are more economical though.
>>
>> Any competent driver can.
>>
>>> **We'll see. The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars
>>> off the road, starting in 2030. And that is from a right wing
>>> government, I might add.
>>
>> Bullshit, there is no ban on manual gearboxes, the *proposed* ban is
>> on all IC vehicles no matter what type of transmission they have.
>>
>> "In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
>> there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel
>> cars. That, by default, rules out manual cars, as all electric cars
>> are automatic. The ban will only restrict the sale of petrol and
>> diesel cars, though. Those that are already on the road can continue
>> to be driven. So, manual cars aren’t going to instantly disappear, but
>> they’re definitely on track to becoming a relic of the past."
>>
>> Note that the article says that electric cars are automatics which is
>> garbage as electric cars do not need variable ratio transmission.
>>
> You may need to rejig your thinking on that score.
>
> https://press.zf.com/press/en/releases/release_10181.html
>
> Used in the Porsche Taycan and Audi E-Tron GT.
>
>
>    How does ZF's two-speed EV transmission work?
>
>    ZF's universal drive unit, offering a turn-key drivetrain
>    for manufacturers looking to develop a mainstream EV,
>    incorporates a 140kW electric motor and, crucially, a
>    game-changing two-speed gearbox.
>
>    At low speeds and in stop-start traffic, an electric motor
>    is at its most efficient, offering regenerative braking to
>    recoup power under deceleration and without power-sapping
>    drag to fight. But at cruising speed, the rapidly spinning
>    motor puts a high demand on the battery, compounded by
>    aerodynamic and tyre resistance.
>
>    However, when vehicles fitted with ZF’s new unit pass
>    70km/h, the gearbox shifts up into its taller cruising
>    ratio, lowering the motor’s RPM for greater efficiency and
>    optimised torque.
>
>    Until now, manufacturers have had to choose between
>    low-speed torque or high-speed efficiency and lock that
>    decision into the single gear ratio, but this potentially
>    revolutionary twin-ratio solution is offering something
>    closer to the best of both worlds.
>
>                             ----
>
>    As with manual and automatic gearboxes, expect to see EV
>    transmissions with more ratios. ZF is up to nine in its
>    automatics for ICE, and more cogs in an EV gearbox will
>    bring similar benefits – more potent acceleration and
>    torque, increased motor life, and longer cruising range.
>
> https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/zf-2-speed-ev-transmission-explained#
>
Yearh right, the while thing is predicated on a ZF press release, a
company that has a lot to loose should electric vehicles become
dominant. Their gearbox may have some applications, but I don't see it
being mainstream.

On 15/7/2023 8:45 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 5:06 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 15/7/2023 3:34 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 15/07/2023 8:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>> **Sure. A VERY good driver can extract slightly better fuel economy
>>>> from a manual gearbox, compared to older style autos. Modern autos
>>>> are more economical though.
>>>
>>> Any competent driver can.
>>>
>>>> **We'll see. The UK has effectively legislated manual gearbox cars
>>>> off the road, starting in 2030. And that is from a right wing
>>>> government, I might add.
>>>
>>> Bullshit, there is no ban on manual gearboxes, the *proposed* ban is
>>> on all IC vehicles no matter what type of transmission they have.
>>>
>>> "In short, yes. There’s no set ban on manual transmission itself, but
>>> there is a ban coming into place in 2030 on all petrol and diesel
>>> cars. That, by default, rules out manual cars, as all electric cars
>>> are automatic. The ban will only restrict the sale of petrol and
>>> diesel cars, though. Those that are already on the road can continue
>>> to be driven. So, manual cars aren’t going to instantly disappear,
>>> but they’re definitely on track to becoming a relic of the past."
>>>
>>> Note that the article says that electric cars are automatics which is
>>> garbage as electric cars do not need variable ratio transmission.
>>>
>> You may need to rejig your thinking on that score.
>>
>> https://press.zf.com/press/en/releases/release_10181.html
>>
>> Used in the Porsche Taycan and Audi E-Tron GT.
>>
>>
>>     How does ZF's two-speed EV transmission work?
>>
>>     ZF's universal drive unit, offering a turn-key drivetrain
>>     for manufacturers looking to develop a mainstream EV,
>>     incorporates a 140kW electric motor and, crucially, a
>>     game-changing two-speed gearbox.
>>
>>     At low speeds and in stop-start traffic, an electric motor
>>     is at its most efficient, offering regenerative braking to
>>     recoup power under deceleration and without power-sapping
>>     drag to fight. But at cruising speed, the rapidly spinning
>>     motor puts a high demand on the battery, compounded by
>>     aerodynamic and tyre resistance.
>>
>>     However, when vehicles fitted with ZF’s new unit pass
>>     70km/h, the gearbox shifts up into its taller cruising
>>     ratio, lowering the motor’s RPM for greater efficiency and
>>     optimised torque.
>>
>>     Until now, manufacturers have had to choose between
>>     low-speed torque or high-speed efficiency and lock that
>>     decision into the single gear ratio, but this potentially
>>     revolutionary twin-ratio solution is offering something
>>     closer to the best of both worlds.
>>
>>                              ----
>>
>>     As with manual and automatic gearboxes, expect to see EV
>>     transmissions with more ratios. ZF is up to nine in its
>>     automatics for ICE, and more cogs in an EV gearbox will
>>     bring similar benefits – more potent acceleration and
>>     torque, increased motor life, and longer cruising range.
>>
>> https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/zf-2-speed-ev-transmission-explained#
>>
> Yearh right, the while thing is predicated on a ZF press release, a
> company that has a lot to loose should electric vehicles become
> dominant. Their gearbox may have some applications, but I don't see it
> being mainstream.

Performance EVs is the current target market from what I've read on the
topic. Looking at the two vehicles that it is fitted to, Porsche Taycan
and Audi E-Tron GT, that seems to be the case. However there are
efficiency gains to be had using a step AT (or CVT) by keeping the
electric motor in an optimal and efficient speed range.

But my point is made, there already exist step AT transmissions in
electric vehicles. To get some idea of the benefits in the
non-performance realm, here is a similar trans used in EMUs in the
railway system;
https://www.zf.com/products/en/rail/products_64372.html

With electricity prices on the increase, maximum efficiency is
also becoming more important for Electric Multiple Units.
Anticipating this development, ZF therefore developed ZF Get2.
As opposed to conventional EMU transmissions, this innovative
transmission concept has two gears thanks to an additional
starting gear. The two-speed transmission continuously moves
the load point in such a way that the electric motor and
converter always work in a favorable efficiency range. This
saves energy and provides greater tractive power at the same
level of drive power. These advantages can be brought to bear
particularly during the starting processes and thus for metro
applications, since the distances between metro stops are
short. In this application, ZF Get2 generates energy savings
of up to five percent compared to one of the most advanced
current metro drive systems.During constant travel, ZF Get2
also reduces energy consumption because it has a neutral
position in addition to the two gears. If this is activated,
the rail vehicle is in coasting mode, meaning that all drives
not required to maintain the speed are decoupled in order to
avoid losses. During deceleration, the multispeed concept
makes it possible to use the respectively optimal
recuperation point of the traction machine, which improves
energy recuperation. ZF’s multiple traction system also
maintains the same high level of passenger comfort in spite
of the gear changes: The intelligent electronic control
system engages all drive units in the vehicle automatically
in serial sequence and thus prevents noticeable interruptions
of tractive force. The gears are changed extremely fast. The
train accelerates smoothly.

Can you see the benefits in there for commuter BEVs? I can.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/07/2023 4:28 am, alvey wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 21:14:27 +1000, Noddy wrote:
>
>> On 14/07/2023 8:38 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 14/07/2023 4:35 pm, Clocky wrote:
>>>
>>>> What a load of pig-ignorant crap. Geothermal and tidal in spades you
>>>> dickhead.
>>>
>>> Geothermal in Australia?
>>
>> Lol :)
>
> lol indeed.
>
> Poor old Fraudster. He just can't get any sort of half-decent lapdog.
> And you know why that is Fraudster? Well of course you don't. It was a
> rhetorical question, so I'll tell you. It's because you're a repulsive,
> obnoxious and vainglorious bully wannabee whose string of self-glorifying
> lies have been so thoroughly and unarguably exposed that no one with any
> sense of right or reality would have anything to do with you.
>
>
> hth
>
>
> alvey
>

Amen.

--
In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
proven liar."

On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."

On 15/07/2023 8:45 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 5:06 pm, Xeno wrote:

>>     As with manual and automatic gearboxes, expect to see EV
>>     transmissions with more ratios. ZF is up to nine in its
>>     automatics for ICE, and more cogs in an EV gearbox will
>>     bring similar benefits – more potent acceleration and
>>     torque, increased motor life, and longer cruising range.
>>
>> https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/zf-2-speed-ev-transmission-explained#

ROTFL :)

Clueless Clasener is at it again :)

> Yearh right, the while thing is predicated on a ZF press release, a
> company that has a lot to loose should electric vehicles become
> dominant. Their gearbox may have some applications, but I don't see it
> being mainstream.

Neither do I.

Tesla et al have proved that when it comes to electric cars using motors
that make maximum torque from zero rpm, multiple ratio transmissions are
completely unnecessary.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 15/7/2023 9:42 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 8:45 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>> On 15/07/2023 5:06 pm, Xeno wrote:
>
>>>     As with manual and automatic gearboxes, expect to see EV
>>>     transmissions with more ratios. ZF is up to nine in its
>>>     automatics for ICE, and more cogs in an EV gearbox will
>>>     bring similar benefits – more potent acceleration and
>>>     torque, increased motor life, and longer cruising range.
>>>
>>> https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/zf-2-speed-ev-transmission-explained#
>
> ROTFL :)
>
> Clueless Clasener is at it again :)
>
You poor silly fool! You just don't get it, do you? And, sadly, you're
not alone!

https://islproducts.com/design-note/how-to-read-dc-motor-gear-motor-performance-curves/

Efficiency (η)

Efficiency is a relationship between the input power and
output power, given as a percentage (%). This line is more
or less parabolic with the vertex more towards the lower
torque values (see pink line in example above). It
typically peaks early on in the torque range then slowly
decreases as the motor gets closer to its stall torque.

Using the motor near it’s peak efficiency ensures optimal
motor life and power consumption. It is best practice to
use a motor at or near its peak efficiency. The further
away a motor gets from max efficiency, its performance
becomes less reliable.

The article I linked to relating to the automotive BEV 2 speed clearly
showed that the whole idea was to improve both performance and
efficiency - just as this link is indicating. Remember, efficiency an
battery terms equates to electricity consumption hence battery life.
What the 2 speed trans does is give the Porsche and the Audi the ability
to be efficient at high speed and perform well at low speed. It's all
clear in the graph but I don't expect you to get it.

>> Yearh right, the while thing is predicated on a ZF press release, a
>> company that has a lot to loose should electric vehicles become
>> dominant. Their gearbox may have some applications, but I don't see it
>> being mainstream.
>
> Neither do I.

You have no clue on the topic whatsoever, as can be expected from
someone who couldn't even complete, much less pass, year 9 in a
*technical school* FFS.
>
> Tesla et al have proved that when it comes to electric cars using motors
> that make maximum torque from zero rpm, multiple ratio transmissions are
> completely unnecessary.

What you need to think about is that *Porsche* was the company that
promoted the development of the ZF 2 speed trans.

https://www.wired.com/story/electric-car-two-speed-transmission-gearbox/

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 15/7/2023 8:00 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 9:07 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>> **Not my description. I have a mate who owns and has owned a slew of
>> Porsches (and one Ferrari). He is a 911 (and, once a 930) guy. He
>> describes the Boxster ad a hairdresser's car.
>
> OK define what constitutes a "Hairdresser's car" and explain what it is
> about the boxcar that makes it one.
>
> I think that your friend has a superiority complex and looks down on
> machinery cheaper than the exotica that he can afford.
>
> I've seen the same attitude in the HiFi fraternity, sneering at gear
> that produces a similar result, but at a reasonable price.
>
> PS. Your friend wouldn't be able to enjoy a new 911 if not for the
> Boxster, Porsche were going broke, the Boxster sales saved the company.
>

It sure did and also the Cayenne, without those models there would be no
Porsche.
Fortunately Porsche snobs like Trev's mate are few and far between, I've
meet quite a few Porsche owners and most are just normal decent car
enthusiasts with a bit more money.

--
Daryl