Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>
> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>
> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys, providing different
> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes to western
> cruse ship pax).
>
>

It has probably changed now due to increased security,different management
,etc but one of the perks of going on board some of cruise ships to do
maintenance work while they were on turnaround
was that you could go to one of the crews dining areas and get a free meal
which I often did.
You could always get a nice curry on P&O, and done so you could taste and
eat it compared to those
in some British Indian Restaurants which cater more for the Macho I want it
as hot as molten Lava
brigade.

GH

On 21/03/2022 13:47, Marland wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>
>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>
>> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys, providing different
>> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes to western
>> cruse ship pax).
>>
>>
>
> It has probably changed now due to increased security,different management
> ,etc but one of the perks of going on board some of cruise ships to do
> maintenance work while they were on turnaround
> was that you could go to one of the crews dining areas and get a free meal
> which I often did.
> You could always get a nice curry on P&O, and done so you could taste and
> eat it compared to those
> in some British Indian Restaurants which cater more for the Macho I want it
> as hot as molten Lava
> brigade.
>

Not at sea, but my first job was as a waiter in a West End restaurant.
One of the perks being free meals. Most of the other waiters were
Iberian and the food was a fairly bland affair. However the cooks were
all Chinese so I used to eat with them, which they found highly amusing.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 21/03/2022 09:36, Recliner wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:45:05 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t1792t$lmd$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:09:49 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 20/03/2022 10:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t16n1g$rpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:01:52 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Talk is rife that P&O has registered its ferries offshore so they
>>>>>> do not have to abide by UK employment laws. The Pride of Hull, for
>>>>>> example, is registered at the port of Nassau in the Bahamas. The
>>>>>> Pride of Kent switched from the UK to Cyprus in 2019.
>>>>>> Verity Slater, partner at law firm Stephens Scown and an expert in
>>>>>> maritime employment law, says this could be enough to avoid UK law.
>>>>>> If employees decided to take legal action, the courts might have to
>>>>>> decide whether it should be judged under English law or seafarer
>>>>>> legislation such as the Maritime Labour Convention. The UK
>>>>>> Employment Rights Act, which protects such rights as statutory
>>>>>> redundancy pay and minimum notice periods, theoretically only
>>>>>> applies to British-registered ships belonging to a GB port.
>>>
>>>>> And that is perhaps why there's been no suggestion in the media
>>>>> (despite armies of barrack-room lawyers on social media) that this
>>>>> activity by P&O is unlawful.
>>>>
>>>> At least one government minister says it could be.
>>>
>>> All I've seen is one saying it might be illegal not to have given
>>> sufficient notice to the government, not that the firings were
>>> themselves illegal.
>>
>> Perhaps they are reluctant to comment on what is likely to become a
>> civil case in court. Not my field at all, but my general
>> understanding is that for a redundancy the job must have ceased to
>> exist and any replacement job has to be substantially different. If
>> redundancy does not apply, then I thought it was presumed to to be
>> unfair dismissal unless grounds for dismissal can be established.
>>
>
> Even if it's treated as unfair dismissal, the compensation isn't huge. The
> company might be willing to pay it, rather than continuing with what was
> claimed to be an unsustainable business.
>
> <https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/problems-at-work/employment-tribunals1/employment-tribunals2/check-what-compensation-you-can-get-for-unfair-dismissal/>
>
>

From what is publically available it seems that the package being
offered to the dismissed seafarers will exceed the possible amount they
may get from a tribunal - and will be paid quicker than the long drawn
out tribunal procedure.

--
Colin

On 21/03/2022 10:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 21/03/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21 Mar
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>
>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the rest of
>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>
>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>
>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel /galley
>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority are on
>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>
>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>
>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>
>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>
>>> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys, providing
>>> different
>>> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes to
>>> western
>>> cruse ship pax).
>>
>> Thanks, that's what I thought.
>
> I doubt that applies to short sea ferries with British crews.
>

Exactly. On all the ferries I have worked on (including P&O at Dover)
there is a single galley but with two serving areas, one for the pax
restaurant and the other for the crew. Same cooks, same galley staff
etc. Even on those with Filipino crews this is essentially the same.

--
Colin

In message <ob0h3hluhcj4hu02c53j23kgrtsflha5a8@4ax.com>, at 13:45:53 on
Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 11:33:16 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the rest of
>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>
>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel /galley
>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority are on
>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>
>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>
>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>
>>They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and served by the
>>same crew.
>
>Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.

Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:01:04 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 21/03/2022 09:36, Recliner wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:45:05 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t1792t$lmd$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:09:49 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 20/03/2022 10:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t16n1g$rpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:01:52 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Talk is rife that P&O has registered its ferries offshore so they
>>>>>>> do not have to abide by UK employment laws. The Pride of Hull, for
>>>>>>> example, is registered at the port of Nassau in the Bahamas. The
>>>>>>> Pride of Kent switched from the UK to Cyprus in 2019.
>>>>>>> Verity Slater, partner at law firm Stephens Scown and an expert in
>>>>>>> maritime employment law, says this could be enough to avoid UK law.
>>>>>>> If employees decided to take legal action, the courts might have to
>>>>>>> decide whether it should be judged under English law or seafarer
>>>>>>> legislation such as the Maritime Labour Convention. The UK
>>>>>>> Employment Rights Act, which protects such rights as statutory
>>>>>>> redundancy pay and minimum notice periods, theoretically only
>>>>>>> applies to British-registered ships belonging to a GB port.
>>>>
>>>>>> And that is perhaps why there's been no suggestion in the media
>>>>>> (despite armies of barrack-room lawyers on social media) that this
>>>>>> activity by P&O is unlawful.
>>>>>
>>>>> At least one government minister says it could be.
>>>>
>>>> All I've seen is one saying it might be illegal not to have given
>>>> sufficient notice to the government, not that the firings were
>>>> themselves illegal.
>>>
>>> Perhaps they are reluctant to comment on what is likely to become a
>>> civil case in court. Not my field at all, but my general
>>> understanding is that for a redundancy the job must have ceased to
>>> exist and any replacement job has to be substantially different. If
>>> redundancy does not apply, then I thought it was presumed to to be
>>> unfair dismissal unless grounds for dismissal can be established.
>>>
>>
>> Even if it's treated as unfair dismissal, the compensation isn't huge. The
>> company might be willing to pay it, rather than continuing with what was
>> claimed to be an unsustainable business.
>>
>> <https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/problems-at-work/employment-tribunals1/employment-tribunals2/check-what-compensation-you-can-get-for-unfair-dismissal/>
>>
>>
>
> From what is publically available it seems that the package being
>offered to the dismissed seafarers will exceed the possible amount they
>may get from a tribunal - and will be paid quicker than the long drawn
>out tribunal procedure.

Exactly: it's cheaper and much better for the company to do it that way.

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:07:16 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 21/03/2022 10:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 21/03/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the rest of
>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>
>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel /galley
>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority are on
>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>
>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>
>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>
>>>> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys, providing
>>>> different
>>>> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes to
>>>> western
>>>> cruse ship pax).
>>>
>>> Thanks, that's what I thought.
>>
>> I doubt that applies to short sea ferries with British crews.
>>
>
>Exactly. On all the ferries I have worked on (including P&O at Dover)
>there is a single galley but with two serving areas, one for the pax
>restaurant and the other for the crew. Same cooks, same galley staff
>etc. Even on those with Filipino crews this is essentially the same.

It probably depends on the size of the ships. With relatively small numbers of people to serve, a single galley is all
that's needed, but on large cruise ships, there will be separate galleys and mess rooms on the crew accommodation decks.

On 21/03/2022 13:59, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ob0h3hluhcj4hu02c53j23kgrtsflha5a8@4ax.com>, at 13:45:53 on
> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 11:33:16 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>> rest of
>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>> /galley
>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority are on
>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>
>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>
>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>
>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and served
>>> by the
>>> same crew.
>>
>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>
> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?

Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated crew
servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.

--
Colin

On 21/03/2022 14:18, Recliner wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:07:16 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 21/03/2022 10:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 21/03/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the rest of
>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel /galley
>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority are on
>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>
>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>
>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>
>>>>> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys, providing
>>>>> different
>>>>> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes to
>>>>> western
>>>>> cruse ship pax).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, that's what I thought.
>>>
>>> I doubt that applies to short sea ferries with British crews.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. On all the ferries I have worked on (including P&O at Dover)
>> there is a single galley but with two serving areas, one for the pax
>> restaurant and the other for the crew. Same cooks, same galley staff
>> etc. Even on those with Filipino crews this is essentially the same.
>
> It probably depends on the size of the ships. With relatively small numbers of people to serve, a single galley is all
> that's needed, but on large cruise ships, there will be separate galleys and mess rooms on the crew accommodation decks.

Agree, but Roland's only been talking about ferries. Even some ferries
have more than one galley, but the crew do not have a dedicated galley
but share one as I said.

--
Colin

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:23:17 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 21/03/2022 14:18, Recliner wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:07:16 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/03/2022 10:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 21/03/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the rest of
>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel /galley
>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority are on
>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>
>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys, providing
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes to
>>>>>> western
>>>>>> cruse ship pax).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, that's what I thought.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt that applies to short sea ferries with British crews.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly. On all the ferries I have worked on (including P&O at Dover)
>>> there is a single galley but with two serving areas, one for the pax
>>> restaurant and the other for the crew. Same cooks, same galley staff
>>> etc. Even on those with Filipino crews this is essentially the same.
>>
>> It probably depends on the size of the ships. With relatively small numbers of people to serve, a single galley is all
>> that's needed, but on large cruise ships, there will be separate galleys and mess rooms on the crew accommodation decks.
>
>Agree, but Roland's only been talking about ferries. Even some ferries
>have more than one galley, but the crew do not have a dedicated galley
>but share one as I said.

Yes, agreed.

In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>
>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>
>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>served by the same crew.
>>>
>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.

>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>
>Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.

The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
quarters?
--
Roland Perry

On 21/03/2022 16:50, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>  complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>  the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>  etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>  board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>
>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>
>>>  Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>
>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and
>> food is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>> dedicated crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>
> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
> quarters?

There are many different designs of P&O ferry based in Dover. Pride of
Kent has crew accomodation above the passenger deck but certainly did
have a single galley prior to conversion from a "European" class vessel.
I do not know the newer Pride of Britain class.

--
Colin

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:59:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <nngg3h53mctple1ed8ubhqs61aac5mrnhi@4ax.com>, at 09:22:21 on
>Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:45:05 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <t1792t$lmd$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:09:49 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>On 20/03/2022 10:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t16n1g$rpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:01:52 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Talk is rife that P&O has registered its ferries offshore so they
>>>>>>do not have to abide by UK employment laws. The Pride of Hull, for
>>>>>>example, is registered at the port of Nassau in the Bahamas. The
>>>>>>Pride of Kent switched from the UK to Cyprus in 2019.
>>>>>> Verity Slater, partner at law firm Stephens Scown and an expert in
>>>>>>maritime employment law, says this could be enough to avoid UK law.
>>>>>>If employees decided to take legal action, the courts might have to
>>>>>>decide whether it should be judged under English law or seafarer
>>>>>>legislation such as the Maritime Labour Convention. The UK
>>>>>>Employment Rights Act, which protects such rights as statutory
>>>>>>redundancy pay and minimum notice periods, theoretically only
>>>>>>applies to British-registered ships belonging to a GB port.
>>>
>>>>> And that is perhaps why there's been no suggestion in the media
>>>>>(despite armies of barrack-room lawyers on social media) that this
>>>>>activity by P&O is unlawful.
>>>>
>>>>At least one government minister says it could be.
>>>
>>>All I've seen is one saying it might be illegal not to have given
>>>sufficient notice to the government, not that the firings were
>>>themselves illegal.
>>
>>Perhaps they are reluctant to comment on what is likely to become a
>>civil case in court. Not my field at all, but my general
>>understanding is that for a redundancy the job must have ceased to
>>exist and any replacement job has to be substantially different. If
>>redundancy does not apply, then I thought it was presumed to to be
>>unfair dismissal unless grounds for dismissal can be established.
>
>See the difference between "jobs", and "tasks".

I meant task or 'job content'.

On 20/03/2022 21:29, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 20/03/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 20/03/2022 10:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t15h02$svf$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:12:36 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of
>>>> the replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark
>>>> and enter UK ??
>>>
>>> What would be the legal basis for that?
>>
>> No visas issued for them to live or work in UK ?
>
> Do sailors need one? I've a vague idea there might be special rules for
> sailors going ashore.
>
>

There are.

On 21/03/2022 23:15, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 20/03/2022 21:29, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>> On 20/03/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 20/03/2022 10:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t15h02$svf$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:12:36 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of
>>>>> the replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark
>>>>> and enter UK ??
>>>>
>>>> What would be the legal basis for that?
>>>
>>> No visas issued for them to live or work in UK ?
>>
>> Do sailors need one? I've a vague idea there might be special rules
>> for sailors going ashore.
>>
>>
>
> There are.

Strangely, albeit many years ago, the bureaucracy for seamen to go
ashore was extremely restrictive in the "land of the free" USA, but much
more relaxed in the USSR!

--
Colin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>
>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>> served by the same crew.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>
>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>
>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>
> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
> quarters?

I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais route,
rather than any P&O car ferry route.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 22 Mar 2022, ColinR wrote
(in article <t1c23a$5ke$1@dont-email.me>):

> On 21/03/2022 23:15, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > On 20/03/2022 21:29, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> > > On 20/03/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
> > > > On 20/03/2022 10:30, Roland Perry wrote:
> > > > > In message<t15h02$svf$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:12:36 on Sat, 19 Mar
> > > > > 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
> > >
> > > > > > Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of
> > > > > > the replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark
> > > > > > and enter UK ??
> > > > >
> > > > > What would be the legal basis for that?
> > > >
> > > > No visas issued for them to live or work in UK ?
> > >
> > > Do sailors need one? I've a vague idea there might be special rules
> > > for sailors going ashore.
> >
> > There are.
>
> Strangely, albeit many years ago, the bureaucracy for seamen to go
> ashore was extremely restrictive in the "land of the free" USA, but much
> more relaxed in the USSR!

Seafarers Identity Document

IIRC this is more or less how it works – apologies if some of the details
are OOD, this is my recollection of recruitment of crew who lost their jobs
in the Seafrance / MyferryLink saga.

• Sailors recruited from France – qualified under international [STCW] or
French regs [phone interview with docs by email]
• Arrive in UK and present documents [both ID and quals] at ship or office
• Docs checked, photos taken [or handed in]
• Medical if required
• Face to face interviews confirming experience / quals / fitness&
suitability
• Employment terms agreed and contract signed
• SID issued. [Assuming a red ensign ship this will be new UK SID,
superseding previous French card].

Producing passport and SID at most international borders normally means that
a visa is not required, although that may not be true of certain countries
with strict / specific / suspicious entry regs.

However, arrivals in-country en route to join ship – eg Aussie flying in to
NCE or MRS to join ship at Nice – will prob have to produce evidence, eg
contract or instructions from shipowner or captain to join on arrival day or
day after.

HTH
—
Ken
kwelsby [at] gmail.com

—
Ken
kwelsby [at] gmail.com

On 22/03/2022 10:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>> served by the same crew.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>
>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>
>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>
>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>> quarters?
>
> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais route,
> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Agreed, but Roland always his own views!

--
Colin

On 21/03/2022 12:22, mechanic wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 07:39:53 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> The outrage is caused by the redundancy programme,
>
> More by the brutality of the execution of the redundancies and by
> the lack of consultation.

Much has been made of this sacking event. It is NOT new!!

P&O at Dover did the same thing in 1988. Irish ferries did the same in
2005 and two of their foreign-crewed (i.e. cheaper) ferries have
recently been put on the largest of P&O routes, Dover - Calais. Not
surprising that P&O needed to do something when faced with cheaper
competitors. The methodology was not good, but not unusual. See last two
paras of:

https://maritime-executive.com/article/p-o-ferries-draws-fire-for-mass-layoffs-in-uk
QUOTE
This labor-relations decision has been made before in the British Isles.
A P&O Ferries competitor, Irish Ferries, carried out a similar
mass-redundancy operation in 2005. With no notice, it replaced all its
seafaring staff with contract workers from overseas, drawing condemnation.

Last year, Irish Ferries launched its first foreign-crewed service on
the core Dover-Calais route, bringing fierce new price competition to a
trade long dominated by P&O Ferries and DFDS.
UNQUOTE

--
Colin

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 10:57:19 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>> served by the same crew.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>
>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>
>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>
>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>> quarters?
>
>I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais route,
>rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>
As the initiator of the thread, I confirm there was no restriction to
the Dover-Calais route. Matter of fact, I was thinking of
Cairnryan-Larne.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>> served by the same crew.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>
>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>
>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>
>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>> quarters?
>
> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais route,
> rather than any P&O car ferry route.

More of those invisible words that Roland is so adept at using.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>> served by the same crew.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>
>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>
>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>
>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>> quarters?
>
>I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais route,
>rather than any P&O car ferry route.

What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1cc23$d13$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:16 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:

>Much has been made of this sacking event. It is NOT new!!
>
>P&O at Dover did the same thing in 1988.

Does this mean the people sacked this month are the scabs they employed
in 1988? What goes round, comes around.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1c23a$5ke$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:41:15 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 21/03/2022 23:15, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 20/03/2022 21:29, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>>> On 20/03/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 20/03/2022 10:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t15h02$svf$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:12:36 on Sat, 19
>>>>>Mar 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of
>>>>>>the replacement crews by refusing permission for them to disembark
>>>>>>and enter UK ??
>>>>>
>>>>> What would be the legal basis for that?
>>>>
>>>> No visas issued for them to live or work in UK ?
>>>
>>> Do sailors need one? I've a vague idea there might be special rules
>>>for sailors going ashore.
>>>
>> There are.
>
>Strangely, albeit many years ago, the bureaucracy for seamen to go
>ashore was extremely restrictive in the "land of the free" USA, but
>much more relaxed in the USSR!

"Land of the free" is a misnomer, in the sense that it's a very Germanic
culture of "we are free to put all kinds of bureaucratic rules in place
to hamper the populace".
--
Roland Perry

On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>
>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>
>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>
>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>> quarters?
>>
>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>> route,
>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>
> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.

Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
the "security" staff on.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.