In message <pmqh3hlmbnngpjgoook95cj7tfr5g5kjpd@4ax.com>, at 21:15:47 on
Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:59:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <nngg3h53mctple1ed8ubhqs61aac5mrnhi@4ax.com>, at 09:22:21 on
>>Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:45:05 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <t1792t$lmd$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:09:49 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>On 20/03/2022 10:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t16n1g$rpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:01:52 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Talk is rife that P&O has registered its ferries offshore so they
>>>>>>>do not have to abide by UK employment laws. The Pride of Hull, for
>>>>>>>example, is registered at the port of Nassau in the Bahamas. The
>>>>>>>Pride of Kent switched from the UK to Cyprus in 2019.
>>>>>>> Verity Slater, partner at law firm Stephens Scown and an expert in
>>>>>>>maritime employment law, says this could be enough to avoid UK law.
>>>>>>>If employees decided to take legal action, the courts might have to
>>>>>>>decide whether it should be judged under English law or seafarer
>>>>>>>legislation such as the Maritime Labour Convention. The UK
>>>>>>>Employment Rights Act, which protects such rights as statutory
>>>>>>>redundancy pay and minimum notice periods, theoretically only
>>>>>>>applies to British-registered ships belonging to a GB port.
>>>>
>>>>>> And that is perhaps why there's been no suggestion in the media
>>>>>>(despite armies of barrack-room lawyers on social media) that this
>>>>>>activity by P&O is unlawful.
>>>>>
>>>>>At least one government minister says it could be.
>>>>
>>>>All I've seen is one saying it might be illegal not to have given
>>>>sufficient notice to the government, not that the firings were
>>>>themselves illegal.
>>>
>>>Perhaps they are reluctant to comment on what is likely to become a
>>>civil case in court. Not my field at all, but my general
>>>understanding is that for a redundancy the job must have ceased to
>>>exist and any replacement job has to be substantially different. If
>>>redundancy does not apply, then I thought it was presumed to to be
>>>unfair dismissal unless grounds for dismissal can be established.
>>
>>See the difference between "jobs", and "tasks".
>
>I meant task or 'job content'.

As far as I know redundancy/TUPE doesn't apply if an organisation
switches from one oursourcer to another.

So if (not wishing to create another example) an Ambulance trust
switches its buying from Mercedes to Fiat, then Mercedes can make
manufacturing staff redundant simply because of the reduced demand for
*Mercedes-Ambulances*, and doesn't have to TUPE them over to Fiat.
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>
>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>
>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>> quarters?
>>>
>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>> route,
>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>
>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>
> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
> the "security" staff on.
>

Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
Ferries, got there first.

Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
services?

We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
maritime law.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>> served by the same crew.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>
>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>
>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>
>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>> quarters?
>>
>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais route,
>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>
> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.

The first article I saw about this referred to Cairnryan-Larne; the story
about the captain refusing to let anyone on board comes from Hull IIRC?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t1cc23$d13$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:16 on Tue, 22 Mar
> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Much has been made of this sacking event. It is NOT new!!
>>
>> P&O at Dover did the same thing in 1988.
>
> Does this mean the people sacked this month are the scabs they employed
> in 1988? What goes round, comes around.

Only if they've been employed for the last 34 years, presumably?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>> quarters?
>>>>
>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>> route,
>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>
>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>
>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>> the "security" staff on.
>>
>
> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
> Ferries, got there first.
>
> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
> services?
>
> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
> maritime law.

How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
ports.

P&O Ferries were the anomaly, in that they retained UK crews, paid UK
wages. P&O cruise liners haven't done that for many years. Here's a report
from a decade ago:
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/01/arcadia-cruise-ship-indian-crew>

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>
>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>> route,
>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>
>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>
>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>
>>
>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>> Ferries, got there first.
>>
>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>> services?
>>
>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>> maritime law.
>
> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
> ports.
>

Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>> route,
>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>
>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>
>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>
>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>> services?
>>>
>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>> maritime law.
>>
>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>> ports.
>>
>
> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.

Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
same basis?

On 22/03/2022 14:45, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1cc23$d13$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:16 on Tue, 22 Mar
> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Much has been made of this sacking event. It is NOT new!!
>>
>> P&O at Dover did the same thing in 1988.
>
> Does this mean the people sacked this month are the scabs they employed
> in 1988? What goes round, comes around.

I must admit I did wonder, but the so called "scabs" employed then were
not NUS members (NUS now part of RMT) and contracted accordingly.
However, it seems from news reports that some of those sacked in Dover
were members of RMT so there have been changes in the meantime, either
the non-unionised staff joining the union and/or P&O changing their
contracts to allow union membership.

--
Colin

On 22/03/2022 18:54, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>> quarters?
>>>>
>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>> route,
>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>
>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>
>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>> the "security" staff on.
>>
>
> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
> Ferries, got there first.
>
> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
> services?
>

Nowt new - see
https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2016/11/18/uk-government-to-review-seafarers-pay/

And those two ferries operate wholly within the UK, not UK at one end
and non-UK at the other as the P&O ferries operate (excluding Cairnryan
route)!

--
Colin

--
Colin

On 22/03/2022 21:09, Recliner wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>
>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>> route,
>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>
>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>
>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>
>>
>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>> Ferries, got there first.
>>
>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>> services?
>>
>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>> maritime law.
>
> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
> ports.
>
> P&O Ferries were the anomaly, in that they retained UK crews, paid UK
> wages. P&O cruise liners haven't done that for many years. Here's a report
> from a decade ago:
> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/01/arcadia-cruise-ship-indian-crew>

P&O (when a discrete company rather than the current split apart
company) have always employed foreign seafarers, many of them Goanese.
This a relic from the days of the Raj!

--
Colin

On 22/03/2022 14:46, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1c23a$5ke$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:41:15 on Tue, 22 Mar
> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 21/03/2022 23:15, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 20/03/2022 21:29, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>>>> On 20/03/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>> On 20/03/2022 10:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t15h02$svf$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:12:36 on Sat, 19
>>>>>> Mar  2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Could UK government make life less pleasant for non-UK members of
>>>>>>> the replacement crews by refusing permission for them to
>>>>>>> disembark and enter UK ??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would be the legal basis for that?
>>>>>
>>>>> No visas issued for them to live or work in UK ?
>>>>
>>>> Do sailors need one? I've a vague idea there might be special rules
>>>> for sailors going ashore.
>>>>
>>>  There are.
>>
>> Strangely, albeit many years ago, the bureaucracy for seamen to go
>> ashore was extremely restrictive in the "land of the free" USA, but
>> much more relaxed in the USSR!
>
> "Land of the free" is a misnomer, in the sense that it's a very Germanic
> culture of "we are free to put all kinds of bureaucratic rules in place
> to hamper the populace".

Swot I sed!

--
Colin

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>> services?
>>>>
>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>> maritime law.
>>>
>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>> ports.
>>>
>>
>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>
> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
> same basis?
>
>
>

No. Cruise ships call at many overseas ports. UK minimum wage legislation
can’t be extended to the whole planet. (The practical effect is that cruise
ships would stop calling at UK ports) However it does seem reasonable to
extend it to short sea ferry crossings.

Am 22.03.2022 um 22:09 schrieb Recliner:
>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>> maritime law.
> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
> ports.

Ferry terminals are (usually) specific to one company, container berths
allow ships of all companies to use the same berth.

Theoretically, therefore it's possible that the UK government requires
special operators' licences for companies alighting at ferry terminals,
and the licencing requirements could include minimum wage conditions.

Practically, this is not going to happen in the current government.

Rolf

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 06:43:08 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>> services?
>>>>>
>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>
>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>> ports.
>>>>
>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>
>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>> same basis?
>>
>No. Cruise ships call at many overseas ports. UK minimum wage legislation
>can’t be extended to the whole planet. (The practical effect is that cruise
>ships would stop calling at UK ports) However it does seem reasonable to
>extend it to short sea ferry crossings.
>
With ferry crews paid more than the crew of a cruise liner? This
would look like another anomaly..

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>> services?
>>>>>
>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>
>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>> ports.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>
>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>> same basis?
>>
>>
>>
>
> No. Cruise ships call at many overseas ports. UK minimum wage legislation
> can’t be extended to the whole planet. (The practical effect is that cruise
> ships would stop calling at UK ports) However it does seem reasonable to
> extend it to short sea ferry crossings.

How could you extend it to non-UK ships that aren't based in the UK?
Foreign-owned, foreign-flagged, foreign crews who don't enter the UK
(beyond the dock), travelling to and from non-UK destinations.

No government would get away with that.

On 23/03/2022 09:01, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 22.03.2022 um 22:09 schrieb Recliner:
>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the
>>> minimum
>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>> international
>>> maritime law.
>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have control
>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>> ports.
>
> Ferry terminals are (usually) specific to one company,

Not necessarily. Dover and Calais certainly aren't. Even those terminals
where currently one company has a monopoly could cater for other
companies if they so wanted.

There are some terminals where only specifically designed ships can
operate, eg the Red Funnel terminals in Southampton and Cowes

> container berths
> allow ships of all companies to use the same berth.
>
> Theoretically, therefore it's possible that the UK government requires
> special operators' licences for companies alighting at ferry terminals,
> and the licencing requirements could include minimum wage conditions.
>
> Practically, this is not going to happen in the current government.
>

Or any other in the forseeable future. A year from now we will all have
other things to worry about and no-one will even remember it happened.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

P&O claims it has saved 3,000 jobs and rescued the company

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f8238242-aa2c-11ec-8da7-c2b9b8c9eee5?shareToken=462282068732aa9f24fd64da664025ef>

In message <t1crmm$6pc$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:14 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the
>>only one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>
>Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great
>fuss in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A
>ship on the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>to allow the "security" staff on.

Maybe I haven't been paying close attention, but there's rather a lot
going on at the moment. The government, however (and I have been paying
attention to that side of things) seem by far the most interested in the
Dover-Calais disruption.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1d7o8$g9i$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:23:52 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1cc23$d13$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:16 on Tue, 22 Mar
>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> Much has been made of this sacking event. It is NOT new!!
>>>
>>> P&O at Dover did the same thing in 1988.
>>
>> Does this mean the people sacked this month are the scabs they employed
>> in 1988? What goes round, comes around.
>
>Only if they've been employed for the last 34 years, presumably?

Some of those interviewed gave the impression they'd been working those
ferries all their career (and hence it was far deeper insult to now be
thrown to the wolves).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1f0no$on3$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:24 on Wed, 23 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>P&O claims it has saved 3,000 jobs and rescued the company

Those will be shore-based jobs, mainly?
--
Roland Perry

On 23/03/2022 12:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1f0no$on3$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:24 on Wed, 23 Mar
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> P&O claims it has saved 3,000 jobs and rescued the company
>
> Those will be shore-based jobs, mainly?

900 from 3000 indicates 1/3rd seafarers and 2/3 shore staff, although I
find gthis proportion surprising.

--
Colin

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 06:43:08 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>> ports.
>>>>>
>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>
>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>> same basis?
>>>
>> No. Cruise ships call at many overseas ports. UK minimum wage legislation
>> can’t be extended to the whole planet. (The practical effect is that cruise
>> ships would stop calling at UK ports) However it does seem reasonable to
>> extend it to short sea ferry crossings.
>>
> With ferry crews paid more than the crew of a cruise liner? This
> would look like another anomaly..
>

Well currently the Burger King staff at Dover Ferry terminal will be
earning more than the staff on the ferry. Just because you can’t impose
minimum wage on cruise liners doesn’t mean you should accept exploitation
where you do have control.

This exploitation is saving the customer an average of £40 per crossing.
Average Irish Ferries Dover Calais fares are £135 (exploited work force).
DFDS and old P&O £175. Currently Irish Ferries are getting the traffic for
obvious reasons. If you believe this is acceptable you might need to think
that all UK minimum wage legislation needs to be abolished.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>> ports.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>
>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>> same basis?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> No. Cruise ships call at many overseas ports. UK minimum wage legislation
>> can’t be extended to the whole planet. (The practical effect is that cruise
>> ships would stop calling at UK ports) However it does seem reasonable to
>> extend it to short sea ferry crossings.
>
> How could you extend it to non-UK ships that aren't based in the UK?
> Foreign-owned, foreign-flagged, foreign crews who don't enter the UK
> (beyond the dock), travelling to and from non-UK destinations.
>
> No government would get away with that.
>

Easily done. Licence the use of docks for ferry purposes and only issue
licences to firms that conform to UK minimum wage legislation. Or apply a
punative duty to ticket sales for non conforming companies. (Air passenger
duty was a way round the problem that it wasn’t legally possible to tax jet
fuel)

In message <t1f87j$l4c$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:44:20 on Wed, 23 Mar
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 23/03/2022 12:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t1f0no$on3$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:24 on Wed, 23 Mar
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> P&O claims it has saved 3,000 jobs and rescued the company

>> Those will be shore-based jobs, mainly?
>
>900 from 3000 indicates 1/3rd seafarers and 2/3 shore staff, although I
>find gthis proportion surprising.

The people laid off are reportedly seafarers (to be replaced by newly
drafted in cheap labour). If not shore staff, who are the others?
--
Roland Perry

On 21/03/2022 09:14, Recliner wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20 Mar
>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>
>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the rest of
>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>
>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>
>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>
>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel /galley
>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority are on
>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>
>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>
> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>
> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys, providing different
> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes to western
> cruse ship pax).
>
I personally would be interested in trying Indian and Filipino cuisine.