On 25/03/2022 22:23, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:22, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 17:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 16:14, ColinR wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 15:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for
>>>>>>>>>> go anywhere
>>>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>>>>>> roles on
>>>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ahh, depends on your dictionary but a common definition of liner is
>>>>>> "a ship belonging to a regular line" or similar. If the regular line
>>>>>> is across an ocean then the ship is an ocean liner. The "regular" bit
>>>>>> means following a timetable. It does NOT mean that it is a full
>>>>>> passenger ship - in days of yore there were many cargo liners - and
>>>>>> they still exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.cargoshipvoyages.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, yes, ocean liners do still exist!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, maybe I am being pedantic but....
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good point, many container ships work on regular timetabled routes, so
>>>>> those would be liners. Though I don't think many have passenger
>>>>> accommodation.
>>>>>
>>>> Some do. If they are proprely crewed and have an extra cabin available,
>>>> then it is a little extra revenue for the ship.
>>>
>>> And they can carry up to 12 passengers if accommodation is available.
>>>
>>
>> I thought modern container ships had tiny crews, and any guest cabins
>> would
>> be reserved for management or relatives of officers. They don't use
>> passenger docks, so any commercial passengers would have trouble boarding
>> or leaving the ship. The tiny passenger revenue wouldn't outweigh the
>> inconvenience to the line.
>>
>
> Apparently there are enough companies that find it worth it. CMA CMG and
> APL for intsance
>

On 26/03/2022 07:39, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1g1r6$h0t$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:01:28 on Wed, 23 Mar
>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>> This exploitation is saving the customer an average of £40 per
>>>> crossing.
>>
>>>> Average Irish Ferries Dover Calais fares are £135 (exploited work force).
>>>> DFDS and old P&O £175. Currently Irish Ferries are getting the traffic for
>>>> obvious reasons. If you believe this is acceptable you might need to think
>>>> that all UK minimum wage legislation needs to be abolished.
>>>
>>> The problem is that within the UK all employers are governed by the
>>> same laws so minimum wages (or otherwise) will be adhered to by all
>>> employers. However, when looking at the shipping industry the same laws
>>> do not apply to all so competition will cause a rush to the bottom as
>>> proven by Irish Ferries creaming off the traffic.
>>
>> There's another effect, which is that workforces which have a
>> significant number of minimum-wage earners often don't offer much
>> more than minimum wage as people get promoted up the ranks.
>>
>> The payroll is being squeezed from the bottom up, and the minimum
>> wage law doesn't say that if you have a job currently at say 1.2x
>> minimum wage, and minimum wage gets put up 10%, that you need to
>> be paid the new minimum wage, x 1.2; rather you end up being paid
>> [to first approximation] minimum wage x1.1
>>
>> Eventually almost everyone will get paid close to minimum wage,
>> irrespective of their rank, skill or experience. Which doesn't
>> encourage people to excel at their job.
>
> Agreed. Minimum wage has become the going rate for many, with not much
> prospect for advancement. The equivalent annual pay is around £18k. I’ve no
> idea how you even begin to live on that. There’s precious little tax to be
> paid on that.
>

The argument put forward for foreign crews is that, whilst £18k is low
pay in the UK, it is good pay in the Philipines etc. In fact I recall
that there was a dispute when Bangladeshi* stockmen were being offered
pay at below the ITF rate, and this low pay was supported by their
union. The reasons given were that even the low ITF rate would be too
high given the local pay rates in Bangladesh and would distort the market.

*not 100% sure, may have been Pakistani (the perils of senility).

--
Colin

On 26/03/2022 07:42, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1jpee$q6v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:02:38 on Fri, 25 Mar
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Where the Burger King worker at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage
>>> but the cook on the ferry is earning significantly less there is
>>> something wrong.
>>
>> Do Burger King provide free (or highly subsidised) board and lodging,
>> too? I suppose the staff could sleep in a car in the car park and use
>> the loos inside the building.
>
> I’m yet to be convinced that a Dover Calais ferry has sufficient on board
> accommodation for at least two shifts of crew.
>

They do. Been there, done that.

--
Colin

On 18/03/2022 19:30, Charles Ellson wrote:
> Many people/companies who lose in the High Court have also employed
> legal staff at great cost.

Even the government have to remember that many of these companies can
afford more expensive lawyers than the them very often.

Some years ago now but I remember when Labour brought in PFI in many
places like hospitals, one article pointed out that the PFI companies
had very expensive lawyers finding loopholes in contracts. The one I
always remember is the NHS (perhaps one area) defined 'breakfast' very
loosely so patients only got a piece of toast, if they wanted toast and
marmalade someone had to pay a lot more.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 14:08, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:00:26 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
>>>>> from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.
>>>>
>>>> They do it for the 'Cunard experience', or, in a few cases, because
>>>> they can't/won't fly.
>>>>
>>>> There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2
>>>> does regular voyages in both directions.
>>>
>>> You can book on some freighters, if the captain will allow it or their
>>> schedule lines up with yours. The on-board amenities can be rather
>>> streamlined, if we compare them with the Queens, but they are
>>> comfortable enough and will normally have wait staff.
>>>
>>> I've heard of some cases where such ships might have a gym and swimming
>>> pool.
>>>
>>
>> I think those stories are from the past.
>
> Looking at the link Colin posted, at least some cargo ships offer such
> amenities.

Some 30-odd years ago some friends caught a container ship from Ghana to
the UK at the end of a medical contract there. Apparently it was
comfortable but boring. The crew said the same thing - it was so tightly
scheduled that there was never any time to go ashore.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 14:08, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:00:26 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
>>>>>> from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.
>>>>>
>>>>> They do it for the 'Cunard experience', or, in a few cases, because
>>>>> they can't/won't fly.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2
>>>>> does regular voyages in both directions.
>>>>
>>>> You can book on some freighters, if the captain will allow it or their
>>>> schedule lines up with yours. The on-board amenities can be rather
>>>> streamlined, if we compare them with the Queens, but they are
>>>> comfortable enough and will normally have wait staff.
>>>>
>>>> I've heard of some cases where such ships might have a gym and swimming
>>>> pool.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think those stories are from the past.
>>
>> Looking at the link Colin posted, at least some cargo ships offer such
>> amenities.
>
> Some 30-odd years ago some friends caught a container ship from Ghana to
> the UK at the end of a medical contract there. Apparently it was
> comfortable but boring. The crew said the same thing - it was so tightly
> scheduled that there was never any time to go ashore.
>

And I suspect it's even worse today. Port visits are very short and there's
probably no opportunity to go ashore. And with today's increased security,
it's probably much harder for 'civilan' passengers to exit or board via a
container dock, which isn't set up for them. Passenger ships use completely
different terminals.

On board, the ship will lack most of the amenities of cruise ships or even
ferries, and there won't be much entertainment or even company. The food
may not be to the taste of western passengers.

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> Am 22.03.2022 um 22:09 schrieb Recliner:
>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>> maritime law.
>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>> ports.
>
> Ferry terminals are (usually) specific to one company, container berths
> allow ships of all companies to use the same berth.
>
> Theoretically, therefore it's possible that the UK government requires
> special operators' licences for companies alighting at ferry terminals,
> and the licencing requirements could include minimum wage conditions.
>
> Practically, this is not going to happen in the current government.

P&O Ferries sackings: Ferry operators face minimum wage law change
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60895833

--
Jeremy Double

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/03/2022 19:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 21/03/2022 14:07, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 21/03/2022 10:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 21/03/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>> rest of
>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>> /galley
>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority are on
>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>
>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys, providing
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes to
>>>>>> western
>>>>>> cruse ship pax).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, that's what I thought.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt that applies to short sea ferries with British crews.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly. On all the ferries I have worked on (including P&O at Dover)
>>> there is a single galley but with two serving areas, one for the pax
>>> restaurant and the other for the crew. Same cooks, same galley staff
>>> etc. Even on those with Filipino crews this is essentially the same.
>>>
>>
>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>> passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and poisoning,
>> possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and safely performing
>> their jobs?
>
> Pilot and co-pilot not allowed to have the same meal in case of food
> poisoning. It did happen in Canada IIRC, there's a famous film and book,
> Flight Into Danger, which is a fictionalised version of the event.
>

And of course there’s the film “Airplane”, based on the earlier film “Zero
Hour”, about a flight crew being incapacitated by food poisoning, although
these are fiction.

--
Jeremy Double

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:t1g1n3$da2$2@gioia.aioe.org...
>
>>>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>>>> passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and poisoning,
>>>> possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and safely performing
>>>> their jobs?
>>>
>>> Pilot and co-pilot not allowed to have the same meal in case of food
>>> poisoning. It did happen in Canada IIRC, there's a famous film and book,
>>> Flight Into Danger, which is a fictionalised version of the event.
>
> Is the food which is served on aeroplanes supposed to be a) palatable, b)
> edible? I'm not being facetious: my experience of food on transatlantic
> planes is that it is uniformly vile. I found it was better to have a meal at
> home before I set off, and/or take snacks to eat on the plane.

IMX, European carriers served better food than American ones. Continental
was better than the other American carriers. The best food I have ever had
on a plane was on an Air France flight from South Africa in business class.

--
Jeremy Double

On 28 Mar 2022 11:32:07 GMT, Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> Am 22.03.2022 um 22:09 schrieb Recliner:
>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>> maritime law.
>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>> ports.
>>
>> Ferry terminals are (usually) specific to one company, container berths
>> allow ships of all companies to use the same berth.
>>
>> Theoretically, therefore it's possible that the UK government requires
>> special operators' licences for companies alighting at ferry terminals,
>> and the licencing requirements could include minimum wage conditions.
>>
>> Practically, this is not going to happen in the current government.
>
>P&O Ferries sackings: Ferry operators face minimum wage law change
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60895833

Note that Shapps is threatening new legislation, rather than suggesting that the company's actions break current minimum
wage laws. Such legislation may not be as easy as he thinks, will probably need international cooperation, and could
still lead to lower pay than the former crews received. New legislation would probably have been much easier if we were
still in the EU.

"Jeremy Double" <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:955792716.670160718.746589.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net...
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:t1g1n3$da2$2@gioia.aioe.org...
>>
>>>>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>>>>> passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and
>>>>> poisoning,
>>>>> possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and safely performing
>>>>> their jobs?
>>>>
>>>> Pilot and co-pilot not allowed to have the same meal in case of food
>>>> poisoning. It did happen in Canada IIRC, there's a famous film and
>>>> book,
>>>> Flight Into Danger, which is a fictionalised version of the event.
>>
>> Is the food which is served on aeroplanes supposed to be a) palatable, b)
>> edible? I'm not being facetious: my experience of food on transatlantic
>> planes is that it is uniformly vile. I found it was better to have a meal
>> at
>> home before I set off, and/or take snacks to eat on the plane.
>
> IMX, European carriers served better food than American ones. Continental
> was better than the other American carriers. The best food I have ever
> had
> on a plane was on an Air France flight from South Africa in business
> class.

I've flown on various European airlines (BA, Virgin, Aer Lingus, Finnair
(*), a local German turbo-prop from Schiphol to Paderborn) and the food was
universally bad - far worse than transport-caff standard which is usually
plain but wholesome. I've never flown on a US airline, to be able to
compare. My experiences were all of "cattle-class" (through my own or my
employer's parsimony!). Business or first class may serve better food.

I can understand why: it is a prodigious feat to heat up chilled food in
microwaves for a 747-ful of passengers and to serve it during a fairly small
period of time (no-one wants to wait for ages to be served once they see
other passengers being served). But it doesn't excuse slimy meat, tasteless
veg, semi-raw potatoes and cat-sick pudding. The food on the
Schiphol-Paderborn plane was just potato crisps and other snacks: not very
thrilling but it's difficult to make those worse.

(*) Finnair was the odd one out for another reason. Most airlines' cabin
staff are reasonably attractive young or early-middle-aged women, though you
hope they are nowadays chosen more for their skills than their looks. But
Finnair's (certainly on the flight to/from Helsinkin that I flew on
business) were Rosa Klebb lookalikes who snarled and glared at the
passengers. I be they'd have been good at quelling any riots among the
passengers, though ;-)

On 28/03/2022 11:11, Recliner wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 14:08, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:00:26 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
>>>>>>> from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They do it for the 'Cunard experience', or, in a few cases, because
>>>>>> they can't/won't fly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2
>>>>>> does regular voyages in both directions.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can book on some freighters, if the captain will allow it or their
>>>>> schedule lines up with yours. The on-board amenities can be rather
>>>>> streamlined, if we compare them with the Queens, but they are
>>>>> comfortable enough and will normally have wait staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've heard of some cases where such ships might have a gym and swimming
>>>>> pool.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think those stories are from the past.
>>>
>>> Looking at the link Colin posted, at least some cargo ships offer such
>>> amenities.
>>
>> Some 30-odd years ago some friends caught a container ship from Ghana to
>> the UK at the end of a medical contract there. Apparently it was
>> comfortable but boring. The crew said the same thing - it was so tightly
>> scheduled that there was never any time to go ashore.
>>
>
> And I suspect it's even worse today. Port visits are very short and there's
> probably no opportunity to go ashore. And with today's increased security,
> it's probably much harder for 'civilan' passengers to exit or board via a
> container dock, which isn't set up for them. Passenger ships use completely
> different terminals.
>
> On board, the ship will lack most of the amenities of cruise ships or even
> ferries, and there won't be much entertainment or even company. The food
> may not be to the taste of western passengers.
>

But, for a number of people, it is just that simplicity that is
attractive! Must be so as so many do these voyages.

--
Colin

On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:06:44 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 28/03/2022 11:11, Recliner wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 14:08, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:00:26 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
>>>>>>>> from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They do it for the 'Cunard experience', or, in a few cases, because
>>>>>>> they can't/won't fly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2
>>>>>>> does regular voyages in both directions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can book on some freighters, if the captain will allow it or their
>>>>>> schedule lines up with yours. The on-board amenities can be rather
>>>>>> streamlined, if we compare them with the Queens, but they are
>>>>>> comfortable enough and will normally have wait staff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've heard of some cases where such ships might have a gym and swimming
>>>>>> pool.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think those stories are from the past.
>>>>
>>>> Looking at the link Colin posted, at least some cargo ships offer such
>>>> amenities.
>>>
>>> Some 30-odd years ago some friends caught a container ship from Ghana to
>>> the UK at the end of a medical contract there. Apparently it was
>>> comfortable but boring. The crew said the same thing - it was so tightly
>>> scheduled that there was never any time to go ashore.
>>>
>>
>> And I suspect it's even worse today. Port visits are very short and there's
>> probably no opportunity to go ashore. And with today's increased security,
>> it's probably much harder for 'civilan' passengers to exit or board via a
>> container dock, which isn't set up for them. Passenger ships use completely
>> different terminals.
>>
>> On board, the ship will lack most of the amenities of cruise ships or even
>> ferries, and there won't be much entertainment or even company. The food
>> may not be to the taste of western passengers.
>>
>
>But, for a number of people, it is just that simplicity that is
>attractive! Must be so as so many do these voyages.

Many?

On 28/03/2022 16:10, Recliner wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:06:44 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 28/03/2022 11:11, Recliner wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 14:08, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:00:26 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>>>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>>>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>>>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
>>>>>>>>> from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They do it for the 'Cunard experience', or, in a few cases, because
>>>>>>>> they can't/won't fly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2
>>>>>>>> does regular voyages in both directions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can book on some freighters, if the captain will allow it or their
>>>>>>> schedule lines up with yours. The on-board amenities can be rather
>>>>>>> streamlined, if we compare them with the Queens, but they are
>>>>>>> comfortable enough and will normally have wait staff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've heard of some cases where such ships might have a gym and swimming
>>>>>>> pool.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think those stories are from the past.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking at the link Colin posted, at least some cargo ships offer such
>>>>> amenities.
>>>>
>>>> Some 30-odd years ago some friends caught a container ship from Ghana to
>>>> the UK at the end of a medical contract there. Apparently it was
>>>> comfortable but boring. The crew said the same thing - it was so tightly
>>>> scheduled that there was never any time to go ashore.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And I suspect it's even worse today. Port visits are very short and there's
>>> probably no opportunity to go ashore. And with today's increased security,
>>> it's probably much harder for 'civilan' passengers to exit or board via a
>>> container dock, which isn't set up for them. Passenger ships use completely
>>> different terminals.
>>>
>>> On board, the ship will lack most of the amenities of cruise ships or even
>>> ferries, and there won't be much entertainment or even company. The food
>>> may not be to the taste of western passengers.
>>>
>>
>> But, for a number of people, it is just that simplicity that is
>> attractive! Must be so as so many do these voyages.
>
> Many?

Enough to make the websites advertising them and the shipping companies
to provide them!

--
Colin

In message <t1sggg$dee$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:24:23 on Mon, 28 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:

>(*) Finnair was the odd one out for another reason. Most airlines'
>cabin staff are reasonably attractive young or early-middle-aged women,
>though you hope they are nowadays chosen more for their skills than
>their looks. But Finnair's (certainly on the flight to/from Helsinkin
>that I flew on business) were Rosa Klebb lookalikes who snarled and
>glared at the passengers. I be they'd have been good at quelling any
>riots among the passengers, though ;-)

Transatlantic shifts on AA (American Airlines) were regarded as a perk
of seniority, and hence the cabin crew were much older. The food was
good as well - better in my experience than Continental. But boy were
they grumpy if you didn't understand the protocol of being served
tea/coffee off a tray and pouring your own milk from a communal jug.
--
Roland Perry