Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 19:02:13 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>> passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and poisoning,
>> possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and safely performing
>> their jobs?
>
> What if the aircrew food is contaminated and the passengers' is okay?
> By your logic you would be better giving one diet to half the crew and
> the other diet to the other half.
>

Precisely the plot of a comedic film, non-comedic film and associated book,
which we discussed here only recently.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:t1g1n3$da2$2@gioia.aioe.org...
>
>>>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>>>> passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and poisoning,
>>>> possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and safely performing
>>>> their jobs?
>>>
>>> Pilot and co-pilot not allowed to have the same meal in case of food
>>> poisoning. It did happen in Canada IIRC, there's a famous film and book,
>>> Flight Into Danger, which is a fictionalised version of the event.
>
> Is the food which is served on aeroplanes supposed to be a) palatable, b)
> edible? I'm not being facetious: my experience of food on transatlantic
> planes is that it is uniformly vile. I found it was better to have a meal at
> home before I set off, and/or take snacks to eat on the plane.
>
>

I can't remember the last time I had bad food on an aeroplane (though the
M&S sandwich served by BA disappointing rather than bad).

Some of it (particularly flights with various airlines to various
destinations in Asia) has been actually noticeably good!

Even the hot food which EasyJet and TUI sell on board is no better or worse
than you could buy from a coffee outlet in the terminal or (ob.rail) at a
railway station (toasties, bacon roll etc).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>> services?
>>>>
>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>> maritime law.
>>>
>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>> ports.
>>>
>>
>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>
> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
> same basis?
>
>
I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>> services?
>>>>>
>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>
>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>> ports.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>
>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>> same basis?
>>
>>
> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>

The cruise I've just been on says "all tips are included" ie tipping not
necessary (we still did though, occasionally) - perhaps that implies pay
above the usual for ships?

One other consideration for those who live aboard for their entire
six-month contract is that they presumably have no outgoings - no
accommodation to pay for, no food to buy. Force UK minimum wage and will
the employers retaliate by charging for board and lodging (as farmers in
the UK apparently do, see posts passim), effectively meaning the 'take
home' pay remains the same?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 23/03/2022 22:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 23/03/2022 20:59, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 23/03/2022 20:08, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 23/03/2022 19:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 21/03/2022 14:07, ColinR wrote:
>>>>>>> On 21/03/2022 10:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 21/03/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21
>>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20
>>>>>>>>>>> Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rest of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>> /galley
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>> are on
>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys,
>>>>>>>>>> providing different
>>>>>>>>>> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes
>>>>>>>>>> to western
>>>>>>>>>> cruse ship pax).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, that's what I thought.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I doubt that applies to short sea ferries with British crews.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exactly. On all the ferries I have worked on (including P&O at
>>>>>>> Dover) there is a single galley but with two serving areas, one for
>>>>>>> the pax restaurant and the other for the crew. Same cooks, same
>>>>>>> galley staff etc. Even on those with Filipino crews this is
>>>>>>> essentially the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>>>>>> passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and
>>>>>> poisoning, possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and
>>>>>> safely performing their jobs?
>>>>>
>>>>> Pilot and co-pilot not allowed to have the same meal in case of food
>>>>> poisoning. It did happen in Canada IIRC, there's a famous film and
>>>>> book, Flight Into Danger, which is a fictionalised version of the event.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does the food for crew undergo anymore rigorous examination than for
>>>> passengers?
>>>
>>> Not as far as I know. Crew get the same as first or business class I
>>> believe.
>>>
>>
>> I thought that the crew receive something completely different than
>> passengers -- at least flight crew.
>>
>
> I don't think so. But they probably get to choose first, before the
> passengers, whereas the cabin crew get what's left after the pax have
> eaten.
>
>

When I spoke to the mother of a Ryanair pilot (she was doing a passenger
survey at Gatwick) she said their pilots had to bring their own food. This
was after my comment that I hoped they treated their pilots better than
their passengers. She replied “no, worse”.

On 23/03/2022 22:14, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 23/03/2022 22:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 23/03/2022 20:59, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 23/03/2022 20:08, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 23/03/2022 19:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 21/03/2022 14:07, ColinR wrote:
>>>>>> On 21/03/2022 10:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 21/03/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21
>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun,
>>>>>>>>>> 20 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed
>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>> /galley
>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>> are on
>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys,
>>>>>>>>> providing different
>>>>>>>>> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite
>>>>>>>>> different tastes to western
>>>>>>>>> cruse ship pax).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks, that's what I thought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt that applies to short sea ferries with British crews.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. On all the ferries I have worked on (including P&O at
>>>>>> Dover) there is a single galley but with two serving areas, one
>>>>>> for the pax restaurant and the other for the crew. Same cooks,
>>>>>> same galley staff etc. Even on those with Filipino crews this is
>>>>>> essentially the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>>>>> passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and
>>>>> poisoning, possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and
>>>>> safely performing their jobs?
>>>>
>>>> Pilot and co-pilot not allowed to have the same meal in case of food
>>>> poisoning. It did happen in Canada IIRC, there's a famous film and
>>>> book, Flight Into Danger, which is a fictionalised version of the
>>>> event.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Does the food for crew undergo anymore rigorous examination than for
>>> passengers?
>>
>> Not as far as I know. Crew get the same as first or business class I
>> believe.
>>
>
> I thought that the crew receive something completely different than
> passengers -- at least flight crew.

The only rule is the two pilots don't eat the same meal.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 24/03/2022 06:30, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>> ports.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>
>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>> same basis?
>>>
>>>
>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>
>
> The cruise I've just been on says "all tips are included" ie tipping not
> necessary (we still did though, occasionally) - perhaps that implies pay
> above the usual for ships?
>

Before the minimum wage, serving staff in restaurants were paid badly
but made up for it in tips. Also meant your income tax was negligible as
then you didn't have to declare tips. The IR finally got wise to that.
As a waiter I was paid £4/week (when office work paid £6-8), I took
home, after tax £16, sometimes more.

I believe American serving staff are still on that sort of deal, hence
the high expected rate of tipping there.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 23/03/2022 22:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 23/03/2022 20:59, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 23/03/2022 20:08, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/03/2022 19:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 21/03/2022 14:07, ColinR wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 21/03/2022 10:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 21/03/2022 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t19fla$34r$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:18 on Mon, 21
>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t17mgr$5i4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:59:19 on Sun, 20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rest of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /galley
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On cruise ships, they have completely separate galleys,
>>>>>>>>>>> providing different
>>>>>>>>>>> menus (the Indian and Filipino crews have quite different tastes
>>>>>>>>>>> to western
>>>>>>>>>>> cruse ship pax).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, that's what I thought.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I doubt that applies to short sea ferries with British crews.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Exactly. On all the ferries I have worked on (including P&O at
>>>>>>>> Dover) there is a single galley but with two serving areas, one for
>>>>>>>> the pax restaurant and the other for the crew. Same cooks, same
>>>>>>>> galley staff etc. Even on those with Filipino crews this is
>>>>>>>> essentially the same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>>>>>>> passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and
>>>>>>> poisoning, possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and
>>>>>>> safely performing their jobs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pilot and co-pilot not allowed to have the same meal in case of food
>>>>>> poisoning. It did happen in Canada IIRC, there's a famous film and
>>>>>> book, Flight Into Danger, which is a fictionalised version of the event.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does the food for crew undergo anymore rigorous examination than for
>>>>> passengers?
>>>>
>>>> Not as far as I know. Crew get the same as first or business class I
>>>> believe.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I thought that the crew receive something completely different than
>>> passengers -- at least flight crew.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think so. But they probably get to choose first, before the
>> passengers, whereas the cabin crew get what's left after the pax have
>> eaten.
>>
>>
>
> When I spoke to the mother of a Ryanair pilot (she was doing a passenger
> survey at Gatwick) she said their pilots had to bring their own food. This
> was after my comment that I hoped they treated their pilots better than
> their passengers. She replied “no, worse”.
>
>

Yes, I mentioned upthread that pilots on LoCos didn't get free food. I
think Ryanair pilots even have to pay for water, just like the pax.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>> services?
>>>>>
>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>
>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>> ports.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>
>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>> same basis?
>>
>>
> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>

It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
higher or lower amount, at their discretion.

But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
tips in the fare.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:30:55 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

><hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:t1g1n3$da2$2@gioia.aioe.org...
>
>>>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>>>> passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and poisoning,
>>>> possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and safely performing
>>>> their jobs?
>>>
>>> Pilot and co-pilot not allowed to have the same meal in case of food
>>> poisoning. It did happen in Canada IIRC, there's a famous film and book,
>>> Flight Into Danger, which is a fictionalised version of the event.
>
>Is the food which is served on aeroplanes supposed to be a) palatable, b)
>edible? I'm not being facetious: my experience of food on transatlantic
>planes is that it is uniformly vile. I found it was better to have a meal at
>home before I set off, and/or take snacks to eat on the plane.

I got food poisoning at home once :-)

On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>> route,
>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>
>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>
>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>
>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>> services?
>>>
>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>> maritime law.
>>
>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>> ports.
>>
>
> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>

"By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??

Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
some days via Orkney.
I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.

I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
operate a tri-point route.

Your definition is incorrect!

--
Colin

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>> ports.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>
>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>> same basis?
>>>
>>>
>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>
>
> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>
> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
> tips in the fare.

In that case, in what sense are they tips? They’re can’t reflect the
quality of service offered by any particular crew member, and they aren’t,
presumably, voluntary on the passenger’s part, are they?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>>> same basis?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>
>>
>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>
>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
>> tips in the fare.
>
> In that case, in what sense are they tips? They’re can’t reflect the
> quality of service offered by any particular crew member, and they aren’t,
> presumably, voluntary on the passenger’s part, are they?
>

I agree, they're not really tips, but the companies still use the term as
tips had long been standard on such ships. I think that there may also be a
mechanism for holding back tips from crew members who get poor passenger
ratings. I know that the passenger ratings are very important for the crew,
and can affect contract renewal.

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>> services?
>>>>
>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>> maritime law.
>>>
>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>> ports.
>>>
>>
>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>
>
> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>
> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
> some days via Orkney.
> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>
> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
> operate a tri-point route.
>
> Your definition is incorrect!
>

It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
come up with a suitable definition.

The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
earning significantly less there is something wrong.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>>> same basis?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>
>>
>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>
>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
>> tips in the fare.
>
> In that case, in what sense are they tips? They’re can’t reflect the
> quality of service offered by any particular crew member, and they aren’t,
> presumably, voluntary on the passenger’s part, are they?
>
>

There's presumably nothing to say that passengers can't still tip where
they feel it's appropriate; but this removes any feeling of compulsion to
tip for everything, American-style.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>> services?
>>>>>
>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>
>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>> ports.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>
>>
>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>
>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>> some days via Orkney.
>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>
>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>> operate a tri-point route.
>>
>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>
>
> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
> come up with a suitable definition.
>
> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>
>

Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
than port-to-port.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:30 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>>>> same basis?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
>>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
>>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>>
>>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
>>> tips in the fare.
>>
>> In that case, in what sense are they tips? They’re can’t reflect the
>> quality of service offered by any particular crew member, and they aren’t,
>> presumably, voluntary on the passenger’s part, are they?
>>
>>
>
>There's presumably nothing to say that passengers can't still tip where
>they feel it's appropriate; but this removes any feeling of compulsion to
>tip for everything, American-style.
>
>I've just been on a (mostly) all-inclusive cruise, where any additional
>charges which you did incur get charged to your cabin, so on board is
>cashless; whenever we did want to tip we didn't usually have any cash with
>us!

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>> ports.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>
>>>
>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>
>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>> some days via Orkney.
>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>
>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>
>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>
>>
>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>
>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>
>>
>
>Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>than port-to-port.

And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?

On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>
>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>
>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>
>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>
>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>
>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>
>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>> than port-to-port.
>
> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?

I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:00:26 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:

>On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>
>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>
>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>> than port-to-port.
>>
>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>
>I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
>from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.

They do it for the 'Cunard experience', or, in a few cases, because they can't/won't fly.

There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2 does regular voyages in both directions.

On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>
>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>
>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>
>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>
>>>
>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>
>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>> than port-to-port.
>
> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>> than port-to-port.
>>
>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>
> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>

On 25/03/2022 15:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if
>>>>>>>>>>>> that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A
>>>>>>>>> ship on
>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably
>>>>>>>> Irish
>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>>>>> constitutes
>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could
>>>>>>>> they be
>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>>>>> immigration
>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have
>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A
>>>>>> ferry by
>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal
>>>>>> drafting
>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale
>>>>>> of ferry
>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts".
>>>>> Really??
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>> affected by
>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter
>>>> could
>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go
>>>> anywhere
>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King
>>>> worker
>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>> roles on
>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>> than port-to-port.
>>
>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York
>> and Southampton?
>
> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>

On 24/03/2022 09:26, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>> ports.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>
>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>> same basis?
>>>
>>>
>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>
>
> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>
> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
> tips in the fare.
>

Perhaps windfall wasn't the right word to use. But it still is not bad
at £2,000-3,000 per month, considering that they pay little to nothing
for accommodation and food.

They could also wind up with a passenger who slips them a few on the
side, though I don't know if that is allowed on all ships. Anyway, there
is no guarantee for that.

I saw one documentary about service staff on board a ship, and I think
his base salary was about £47, with the rest coming in tips.

I wonder if those UK based are subject to tax under the employer or if
they can claim self-employment, in which case their liabilities are lower.

On 25/03/2022 00:08, Recliner wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>>>> same basis?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
>>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
>>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>>
>>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
>>> tips in the fare.
>>
>> In that case, in what sense are they tips? They’re can’t reflect the
>> quality of service offered by any particular crew member, and they aren’t,
>> presumably, voluntary on the passenger’s part, are they?
>>
>
> I agree, they're not really tips, but the companies still use the term as
> tips had long been standard on such ships. I think that there may also be a
> mechanism for holding back tips from crew members who get poor passenger
> ratings. I know that the passenger ratings are very important for the crew,
> and can affect contract renewal.
>
Sure. Like many places that require face-to-face interaction.