based BBC could do the same.
>> Maybe not, but I would reckon a majority now have some equipment that can watch video over the internet - PC, laptop, mobile phone, tablet, Smart TV...
>>
> A prospect that I suspect would not impress anyone who has invested in
> a large-screen television.
BBC iplayer HD streams are every bit as good as 'broadcast' HD, and UHD
streams are the only source of UHD content from the BBC (and it'll
probably remain so)

On 08/12/2022 11:25, Woody wrote:
> No reader should forget that (supposedly) by the end of 2025
> <everyone> should have FTTP so that BT can remove all of the copper.

No !! And BT have never said that. By the end of 2025 the copper truck
cables (from exchange to FTTC cabinets) will be decommissioned.
Millions will still be relying on their copper 'cabinet side' lines well
into the 2030s using FTTC (and VoIP based phone 'lines')

On 08/12/2022 11:25, Woody wrote:
> No reader should forget that (supposedly) by the end of 2025 <everyone>
> should have FTTP so that BT can remove all of the copper.

The 2025 deadline is the end of baseband telephony over copper. It
isn't the end of copper, although most of the copper will be FTTC,
although there may be out of the way places where it still goes to the
exchange.

On 08/12/2022 10:45, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 08/12/2022 10:43, NY wrote:
>> On 08/12/2022 10:37, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 08/12/2022 09:48, Phil_M wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How do you record streaming to watch later?  I've just started
>>>> watching Blue Planet 2 which I recorded ages ago.  How long will the
>>>> streamed programmes be available for?
>>>   For as long as the broadcaster allows you access. It's 'their'
>>> show, not 'yours'.
>>
>> There is need for a permanent archive of programmes which can never be
>> deleted - at a price. It gives you the same flexibility as if you buy
>> a DVD: you can watch the programme as many times as you like after
>> that, safe in the knowledge that it will never be deleted, either
>> because the viewing time has expired or for editorial/legal reasons.
>
> I don't understand this obsession with wanting to keep TV recordings,
> I've got a hard drive still full of stuff I haven't watched once yet.

I don't want to keep them, just to watch when convenient and I then
delete them. We have nearly finished watching the Proms we recorded
earlier. The hard drive on our pvr (500GB) stays between 60% and 70%
and has done for years.
Phil M

On 08/12/2022 10:59, Scott wrote:
>
> I've got the iPlayer configured to BBC South West for that reason :-)
>
> When the BBC numpty at the DCMS select committee said Spotlight was
> the most successful 6.30 news programme, did he mean it was more
> successful than Reporting Scotland?
Depends what he meant by success ?   Number of backslapping industry
awards received, Facebook 'Likes', or audience figures ?

On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 09:34:26 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>I would really miss the ability to make my own copies of programmes so I can
>play them (eg using VLC) as I want - eg faster than normal but with the
>ability to go back and play bits again and to single-step through
>"interesting" bits - eg "I wonder where that mansion is that they've used as
>a location - grab a frame and post it on a forum to ask people".

If there's a demand for that, somebody will find a way, regardless of
copy protection or anything else.

Rod.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 11:32:16 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>>> Of course the entire population isn't equipped for internet TV yet,
>>> but then the entire population wasn't equipped for broadcasting itself
>>> when that started. It spread gradually over many years, and an
>>> internet based BBC could do the same.
>>
>>Maybe not, but I would reckon a majority now have some equipment that can watch video over the internet - PC, laptop, mobile phone, tablet, Smart TV...
>>
>A prospect that I suspect would not impress anyone who has invested in
>a large-screen television.

Why not? Practically anything you can watch on a computer you can also
watch on a TV. They both have the same kind of input connections
(HDMI) and will display whatever you care to plug into them.

Rod.

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jve18qFcqtjU5@mid.individual.net...
> based BBC could do the same.
>>> Maybe not, but I would reckon a majority now have some equipment that
>>> can watch video over the internet - PC, laptop, mobile phone, tablet,
>>> Smart TV...
>>>
>> A prospect that I suspect would not impress anyone who has invested in
>> a large-screen television.
> BBC iplayer HD streams are every bit as good as 'broadcast' HD, and UHD
> streams are the only source of UHD content from the BBC (and it'll
> probably remain so)

It's a shame that BBC iPlayer doesn't bundle subtitles in with the
video/audio file (as for DVB-T/T2) but instead sends them as a separate text
file (as for a DVD) which needs to be alongside any file that is downloaded
(either using iPlayer's own download mechanism or Get-iPlayer's). Otherwise,
the GiP download is perfect - and it is free of reception glitches that you
might get with DVB-T/T2.

And the fact that their SD formats don't include 720x576, but instead
various sub-formats of HD 1920x1080.

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jve1fkFcqtjU6@mid.individual.net...
> On 08/12/2022 11:25, Woody wrote:
>> No reader should forget that (supposedly) by the end of 2025 <everyone>
>> should have FTTP so that BT can remove all of the copper.
>
> No !! And BT have never said that. By the end of 2025 the copper truck
> cables (from exchange to FTTC cabinets) will be decommissioned.
> Millions will still be relying on their copper 'cabinet side' lines well
> into the 2030s using FTTC (and VoIP based phone 'lines')

I think early publicity from BTOR (filtered via newspapers etc) implied that
all houses would get FTTP, and that FTTC/VDSL would be withdrawn. That was
the initial impression that I got when there was all the publicity a few
months ago.

The message way well have got mangled between BTOR and the readers of
newspaper articles ;-)

On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 12:08:13 +0000, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 08/12/2022 10:59, Scott wrote:
>>
>> I've got the iPlayer configured to BBC South West for that reason :-)
>>
>> When the BBC numpty at the DCMS select committee said Spotlight was
>> the most successful 6.30 news programme, did he mean it was more
>> successful than Reporting Scotland?
>Depends what he meant by success ?   Number of backslapping industry
>awards received, Facebook 'Likes', or audience figures ?

As I recall, he was delightfully vague on his definition.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 11:48:42 +0000, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>based BBC could do the same.
>>> Maybe not, but I would reckon a majority now have some equipment that can watch video over the internet - PC, laptop, mobile phone, tablet, Smart TV...
>>>
>> A prospect that I suspect would not impress anyone who has invested in
>> a large-screen television.
>BBC iplayer HD streams are every bit as good as 'broadcast' HD, and UHD
>streams are the only source of UHD content from the BBC (and it'll
>probably remain so)

No, my point was that people without broadband may have invested in a
large screen television. Without wishing to be ageist in any way, I
believe there are some pensioners who don't even have a computer in
their home.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 12:35:55 +0000, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 11:32:16 +0000, Scott
><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> Of course the entire population isn't equipped for internet TV yet,
>>>> but then the entire population wasn't equipped for broadcasting itself
>>>> when that started. It spread gradually over many years, and an
>>>> internet based BBC could do the same.
>>>
>>>Maybe not, but I would reckon a majority now have some equipment that can watch video over the internet - PC, laptop, mobile phone, tablet, Smart TV...
>>>
>>A prospect that I suspect would not impress anyone who has invested in
>>a large-screen television.
>
>Why not? Practically anything you can watch on a computer you can also
>watch on a TV. They both have the same kind of input connections
>(HDMI) and will display whatever you care to plug into them.
>
Assuming broadband connection and IT capability, that is. Will the
BBC be providing free broadband, free router, installation, set up and
training for all citizens who require it? Otherwise, I can see this
being a vote-loser in an election.

On 08/12/2022 13:04, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 11:48:42 +0000, Mark Carver
> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> based BBC could do the same.
>>>> Maybe not, but I would reckon a majority now have some equipment that can watch video over the internet - PC, laptop, mobile phone, tablet, Smart TV...
>>>>
>>> A prospect that I suspect would not impress anyone who has invested in
>>> a large-screen television.
>> BBC iplayer HD streams are every bit as good as 'broadcast' HD, and UHD
>> streams are the only source of UHD content from the BBC (and it'll
>> probably remain so)
>
> No, my point was that people without broadband may have invested in a
> large screen television. Without wishing to be ageist in any way, I
> believe there are some pensioners who don't even have a computer in
> their home.

Many may have "computers" without knowing it: the ones in their TVs and
PVRs. And learning how to use the on-demand features of a Freeview Play
device is a long way short of mastering Windows or Linux.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 13:43:27 +0000, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 08/12/2022 13:04, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 11:48:42 +0000, Mark Carver
>> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> based BBC could do the same.
>>>>> Maybe not, but I would reckon a majority now have some equipment that can watch video over the internet - PC, laptop, mobile phone, tablet, Smart TV...
>>>>>
>>>> A prospect that I suspect would not impress anyone who has invested in
>>>> a large-screen television.
>>> BBC iplayer HD streams are every bit as good as 'broadcast' HD, and UHD
>>> streams are the only source of UHD content from the BBC (and it'll
>>> probably remain so)
>>
>> No, my point was that people without broadband may have invested in a
>> large screen television. Without wishing to be ageist in any way, I
>> believe there are some pensioners who don't even have a computer in
>> their home.
>
>Many may have "computers" without knowing it: the ones in their TVs and
>PVRs. And learning how to use the on-demand features of a Freeview Play
>device is a long way short of mastering Windows or Linux.

How may people would you say have broadband connection without knowing
it?

I used to think along these lines - f**k em. I remember my dad saying
they should be banned from the post office during lunchtimes when
workers on a lunch break needed to get on with their business. When he
became a pensioner he changed his mind. Now I am a pensioner I have
changed my mind too.

On 08/12/2022 13:51, Scott wrote:
>
> How may people would you say have broadband connection without knowing
> it?
>
My mum has a PC and a Smart Telly in her house (And 40 Mb/s FTTC because
it is now cheaper than 17 Mb/s ADSL she used to have). She can't operate
either of them, I do it for her when I visit.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 13:54:11 +0000, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 08/12/2022 13:51, Scott wrote:
>>
>> How may people would you say have broadband connection without knowing
>> it?
>>
>My mum has a PC and a Smart Telly in her house (And 40 Mb/s FTTC because
>it is now cheaper than 17 Mb/s ADSL she used to have). She can't operate
>either of them, I do it for her when I visit.

Some people value their independence and I tend to think it is
insulting to think it can be taken away. If she can't operate the
telly I expect she is pretty p**sed off about it.

That said, I would suggest if you consider how badly the FM switchoff
has gone, the political consequences of ending broadcast TV would be
unsustainable for any government.

Woody wrote:

> (supposedly) by the end of 2025 <everyone> should have FTTP

That's not what's promised.

By 2025 nobody should have POTS, what they will have instead is be VoIP, but
that might be over ADSL/VDSL/carrier-pigeon ...

On 08/12/2022 14:12, Andy Burns wrote:
> Woody wrote:
>
>> (supposedly) by the end of 2025 <everyone> should have FTTP
>
> That's not what's promised.
>
> By 2025 nobody should have POTS, what they will have instead is be VoIP, but
> that might be over ADSL/VDSL/carrier-pigeon ...

I await to see what it will happen here, as there's no FTTP on the
horizon. Fortunately FTTC has sufficient speed for my needs.

It does amuse me though, that living in a small village with about 250
houses, we are being surrounded by new estates under construction
totalling about 3000 houses. They will all have FTTP and cable TV as a
matter of course, as the underground pipes are in the infrastructure
plans. We, of course, have telephone poles...

--

Jeff

In article <b3o3phpdv023rikr8sf1oilgij9p0vtpo7@4ax.com>,
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 11:48:42 +0000, Mark Carver
> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> >based BBC could do the same.
> >>> Maybe not, but I would reckon a majority now have some equipment that can watch video over the internet - PC, laptop, mobile phone, tablet, Smart TV...
> >>>
> >> A prospect that I suspect would not impress anyone who has invested in
> >> a large-screen television.
> >BBC iplayer HD streams are every bit as good as 'broadcast' HD, and UHD
> >streams are the only source of UHD content from the BBC (and it'll
> >probably remain so)

> No, my point was that people without broadband may have invested in a
> large screen television. Without wishing to be ageist in any way, I
> believe there are some pensioners who don't even have a computer in
> their home.

The large screnn tv almost certainly has an internet connection, though.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 08/12/2022 14:52, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 08/12/2022 14:12, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Woody wrote:
>>
>>> (supposedly) by the end of 2025 <everyone> should have FTTP
>>
>> That's not what's promised.
>>
>> By 2025 nobody should have POTS, what they will have instead is be
>> VoIP, but
>> that might be over ADSL/VDSL/carrier-pigeon ...
>
> I await to see what it will happen here, as there's no FTTP on the
> horizon. Fortunately FTTC has sufficient speed for my needs.
>
> It does amuse me though, that living in a small village with about 250
> houses, we are being surrounded by new estates under construction
> totalling about 3000 houses. They will all have FTTP and cable TV as a
> matter of course, as the underground pipes are in the infrastructure
> plans. We, of course, have telephone poles...
>
If you currently have copper from a pole feeding your house, eventually
you'll almost certainly have fibre fed from that pole (or a replacement
pole)

Consider that A Good Thing, because if you're currently underground fed,
but without a duct, you'll have your front garden dug up to provide FTTP.

In article <tmstml$r4o7$1@dont-email.me>,
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 08/12/2022 14:12, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Woody wrote:
> >
> >> (supposedly) by the end of 2025 <everyone> should have FTTP
> >
> > That's not what's promised.
> >
> > By 2025 nobody should have POTS, what they will have instead is be VoIP, but
> > that might be over ADSL/VDSL/carrier-pigeon ...

> I await to see what it will happen here, as there's no FTTP on the
> horizon. Fortunately FTTC has sufficient speed for my needs.

> It does amuse me though, that living in a small village with about 250
> houses, we are being surrounded by new estates under construction
> totalling about 3000 houses. They will all have FTTP and cable TV as a
> matter of course, as the underground pipes are in the infrastructure
> plans. We, of course, have telephone poles...

I have the use of a telephone pole - which brings me FTTP

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 08/12/2022 14:08, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 13:54:11 +0000, Mark Carver
> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 08/12/2022 13:51, Scott wrote:
>>>
>>> How may people would you say have broadband connection without knowing
>>> it?
>>>
>> My mum has a PC and a Smart Telly in her house (And 40 Mb/s FTTC because
>> it is now cheaper than 17 Mb/s ADSL she used to have). She can't operate
>> either of them, I do it for her when I visit.
>
> Some people value their independence and I tend to think it is
> insulting to think it can be taken away. If she can't operate the
> telly I expect she is pretty p**sed off about it.

My parents, who are in their 80s, find the most confusing things about
Freeview are:

- TV has to be manually retuned (ie automatic retuning has to be
initiated manually) if a channel moves muxes or if they want a channel
that has just started broadcasting.

- LCNs keep changing instead of a policy of "the first LCN you are given
is the one you must keep forever".

Some TVs and PVRs retune automatically (maybe overnight) even in
standby, but my parents ones don't: the PVR is old enough that it is
DVB-T only, so no HD.

> That said, I would suggest if you consider how badly the FM switchoff
> has gone, the political consequences of ending broadcast TV would be
> unsustainable for any government.

Yes, it would be very bad publicity if people who weren't able to cope
with the change had to buy new equipment when their existing equipment
works perfectly (but the broadcasts have been stopped). Some less
technically able people might suffer in silence: "because of the
changes, I can't watch TV any more". I would hope that if Freeview ever
was switched off, there would be a *lot* of free help available to
people who aren't able to sort it out themselves.

Getting people used to a further change - an end to linear programmes
even on satellite - would be an even bigger hurdle for people who are
not technically literate because it means an end to the concept of
recording a programme to watch later, and a whole new way of accessing
programmes online which are available for a limited period of time. The
real problem with non-linear programming is making people aware of what
new programmes have been added to the library so they know "the limited
period of time for watching this programme starts now". At least current
catchup sites are mirrored by linear broadcasts: once a programme is
listed in Radio Times etc, people know that it will also be available
online.

On Thu 08/12/2022 11:43, Robin wrote:
> On 08/12/2022 10:45, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 08/12/2022 10:43, NY wrote:
>>> On 08/12/2022 10:37, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>> On 08/12/2022 09:48, Phil_M wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you record streaming to watch later?  I've just started
>>>>> watching Blue Planet 2 which I recorded ages ago.  How long will
>>>>> the streamed programmes be available for?
>>>>   For as long as the broadcaster allows you access. It's 'their'
>>>> show, not 'yours'.
>>>
>>> There is need for a permanent archive of programmes which can never
>>> be deleted - at a price. It gives you the same flexibility as if you
>>> buy a DVD: you can watch the programme as many times as you like
>>> after that, safe in the knowledge that it will never be deleted,
>>> either because the viewing time has expired or for editorial/legal
>>> reasons.
>>
>> I don't understand this obsession with wanting to keep TV recordings,
>> I've got a hard drive still full of stuff I haven't watched once yet.
>
> LOL!
>

+1
+1
+1
(Three PVRs!)

On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 15:02:26 +0000, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 08/12/2022 14:52, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 08/12/2022 14:12, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Woody wrote:
>>>
>>>> (supposedly) by the end of 2025 <everyone> should have FTTP
>>>
>>> That's not what's promised.
>>>
>>> By 2025 nobody should have POTS, what they will have instead is be
>>> VoIP, but
>>> that might be over ADSL/VDSL/carrier-pigeon ...
>>
>> I await to see what it will happen here, as there's no FTTP on the
>> horizon. Fortunately FTTC has sufficient speed for my needs.
>>
>> It does amuse me though, that living in a small village with about 250
>> houses, we are being surrounded by new estates under construction
>> totalling about 3000 houses. They will all have FTTP and cable TV as a
>> matter of course, as the underground pipes are in the infrastructure
>> plans. We, of course, have telephone poles...
>>
>If you currently have copper from a pole feeding your house, eventually
>you'll almost certainly have fibre fed from that pole (or a replacement
>pole)
>
>Consider that A Good Thing, because if you're currently underground fed,
>but without a duct, you'll have your front garden dug up to provide FTTP.

This is what we are getting. The telegraph pole is at the bottom of
the rear garden. However, at the same time City Fibre are installing
cable at the front. They claim they don't have permission to lay
cable inside the common parts of our tenement though. I think I'll
object until the neighbours agree to fund outstanding masonry repairs.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 14:28:34 +0000 (GMT), charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

>In article <b3o3phpdv023rikr8sf1oilgij9p0vtpo7@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 11:48:42 +0000, Mark Carver
>> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >based BBC could do the same.
>> >>> Maybe not, but I would reckon a majority now have some equipment that can watch video over the internet - PC, laptop, mobile phone, tablet, Smart TV...
>> >>>
>> >> A prospect that I suspect would not impress anyone who has invested in
>> >> a large-screen television.
>> >BBC iplayer HD streams are every bit as good as 'broadcast' HD, and UHD
>> >streams are the only source of UHD content from the BBC (and it'll
>> >probably remain so)
>
>> No, my point was that people without broadband may have invested in a
>> large screen television. Without wishing to be ageist in any way, I
>> believe there are some pensioners who don't even have a computer in
>> their home.
>
>The large screnn tv almost certainly has an internet connection, though.

Almost certainly. All pensioners have high speed broadband into the
home, especially those on the BT Basic package.