On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 09:02:45 UTC+1, Ace wrote:
>
>> You have a full-blown system now? Pray share. I'm intrigued to see
>> what factors you've decided to include and which to ignore.
>
>Well, of course I don't have a system but rely on the 'my injury is worse
>than your injury principle'.
>
>If I were to try to put a system together I think it would need a few weighting factors.
>1) Hierarchy of bones:
> a) Back / Neck
> b) Femur
> c) Tibia / Fibula
> d) Scapula
> e) Humerus
> f) Radius/Ulna
> g) Scaphoid
> h) Collar bone
> i) ribs
> j) finger/toes (and other small bones in feet and hands- extra points if digits lost)
> k) nose/cheek bones (extra points if cheek bone and helmet used to ride bike to hospital)
>
>2) Hierarchy of type of break
> a) Compound
> b) Displaced
> c) Simple fracture
>
>
>3) Duration of hospital stay
>
>4) Number of surgical procedures
>
>5) Additional factors for treatment by traction
>
>6) Additional factors for insertion of lumps of metal; slight reduction if these are later removed.
>
>7) Long term impact:
> a) Inability for neck/back to function as originally designed.
> b) Limp (legs<<other parts)
> c) Reduction in full mobility of joint.
>
>8) Journey to Hospital
> a) Helicopter.
> b) Ambulance.
> c) Motorcycle (trumps ambulance if limb broken and self-ridden. Further points if it's the bike
> that was crashed causing the break).
> d) Car (note, car trumps ambulance if driven while a limb is broken).
>
>9) Journey back from hospital
> a) Motorbike (self ridden while plastered, extra points if subsequent accident)
> b) Car (if self driven while plastered, extra points if subsequent accident)
> c) Motorcycle, Pillion (extra points if crutches dropped)
> d) Ambulance
>
>10) Quality of tale of any part of the breaking/treating/healing process.
>
>Think that should just about cover it?

This is masterful

Where can I download the spreadsheet?
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 09:02:45 UTC+1, Ace wrote:
>
>> You have a full-blown system now? Pray share. I'm intrigued to see
>> what factors you've decided to include and which to ignore.
>
>Well, of course I don't have a system but rely on the 'my injury is worse
>than your injury principle'.
>
>If I were to try to put a system together I think it would need a few weighting factors.

Not a bad first stab, just a few pointers to things you may not have
thought of, or thought through.

>1) Hierarchy of bones:
> a) Back / Neck

Well that won't do for a start. The seven cervical vertebrae must
count mush higher, then the 12 thoracic then the other seven,
> b) Femur

You missed the Pelvis, probably even more serious than the Femur in
terms of mortality, with a huge risk of bleeding out if it's badly
broken.

> c) Tibia / Fibula
> d) Scapula
> e) Humerus
> f) Radius/Ulna
> g) Scaphoid
> h) Collar bone

Naa, the collar bone's a doddle. Painful, sure, and restrictive, but
not really dangerous either in the short- or the long-term

> i) ribs

As previously mentioned, ribs should be much higher, right after Femur
IMO, mitigated by your seriousness factors below.

> j) finger/toes (and other small bones in feet and hands- extra points if digits lost)
> k) nose/cheek bones (extra points if cheek bone and helmet used to ride bike to hospital)

>
>2) Hierarchy of type of break
> a) Compound
> b) Displaced
> c) Simple fracture

Some leeway for 'special' breaks, like the vertebrae with their
interlinking "notches". I broke 9 in my big smash, but only 3 of them
were so badly crushed that they were in imminent danger of
displacement wrt each other, and therefore needed to be fused together
and pinned.

>3) Duration of hospital stay

+Duration in intensive care, more important.

>4) Number of surgical procedures

And severity. half-hour jobs under a local to remove a couple of pins
in the hand can't compare with four hours under the knife having a
smashed femur pieced back together.

>5) Additional factors for treatment by traction

Why? (presumably because you had it and want it to count higher). In
any case it's something that's rarely used these days, used to be much
more common before pinning and plating become the norm for serious
fractures.

>6) Additional factors for insertion of lumps of metal; slight reduction if these are later removed.
>
>7) Long term impact:
> a) Inability for neck/back to function as originally designed.
> b) Limp (legs<<other parts)
> c) Reduction in full mobility of joint.

Pain. I mean chronic long-term pain,

>8) Journey to Hospital
> a) Helicopter.
> b) Ambulance.
> c) Motorcycle (trumps ambulance if limb broken and self-ridden. Further points if it's the bike
> that was crashed causing the break).
> d) Car (note, car trumps ambulance if driven while a limb is broken).

I think you could add walking with a broken leg for extra points. And
recovery via a secondary means, like stretchered down a mountain
before being heli'd off) perhaps counting extra.

>9) Journey back from hospital
> a) Motorbike (self ridden while plastered, extra points if subsequent accident)
> b) Car (if self driven while plastered, extra points if subsequent accident)
> c) Motorcycle, Pillion (extra points if crutches dropped)
> d) Ambulance
>
>10) Quality of tale of any part of the breaking/treating/healing process.

Hah. Such tales do tend to grow in the (re)telling though, don't they?

>Think that should just about cover it?

Do you need to add something for number of breaks in a single
incident? Merely being clumsy and breaking minor bones many times
can's be compared with huge trauma injusries, can they?

So anyway, now you just need to add in the extra points and turn it
into a spreadsheet, then we can all compare notes.
>

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 9/22/2021 5:33 PM, Ace wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:56:04 +0100, Mike Fleming <mike@tauzero.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>
>> I broke several (never got told how many) highsiding the Tiger, with a
>> concomitant punctured lung. In A&E, the consultant asked if it was OK if
>> he showed his trainee how to put in a drain, and I said yes. "First,
>> local anaesthetic" (needle prick) "Then we make the incision,
>> positioning it between these ribs" (no, didn't feel that). "Next, we
>> separate the ribs slightly" (AAARGH AAAARGH Fucking hell sorry about the
>> swearing) "Like this?" (AAARGH again) "And then we insert the drain" (OW
>> OW OW). Then they experimented with a mixture of morphine and ketamine
>> on me. All in all, an eventful day.
>
> I was unaware of the first drain being inserted, as I was so heavily
> drugged up that I might as well have been under a General Anaesthetic.
> Roll on a week in intensive care, they finally realise that the other
> lung is also collapsed, for how long wasn't clear, although I'd been
> complaining for days about the pressure building in the abdominal
> cavity. So this time they put the drain in as you described; the
> incision was not too bad, although ISTR there were scissors involved,
> nit just a scalpel, but the final entry was possibly the most painful
> thing I've ever experienced in my life. Nothing could have prepared me
> for it.
>
> The doctor wasn't prepared either, for the torrent of bloody fluids
> that spurted out, liberally covering him and much of the room, and I
> suspect the release of pressure was a significant factor in the pain
> levels.
>
I'm still recuperating from surgery a few months ago. When they brought
me out of the surgery, they put me on another bed and I spent the night
there. That bed had an automatic machine that raised and lowered the
lower torso every few minutes to alleviate blood clotting. But I'd had
surgery a few years ago for a ruptured disc in my lower back, so every
time the bed shifted, it sent agonizing pains through my back. "Sorry,
sir, this is the only bed we have and there's no way to turn it off."
FARK.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 9/23/2021 7:50 AM, Ace wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
> <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 09:02:45 UTC+1, Ace wrote:
>>
>>> You have a full-blown system now? Pray share. I'm intrigued to see
>>> what factors you've decided to include and which to ignore.
>>
>> Well, of course I don't have a system but rely on the 'my injury is worse
>> than your injury principle'.
>>
>> If I were to try to put a system together I think it would need a few weighting factors.
>
> Not a bad first stab, just a few pointers to things you may not have
> thought of, or thought through.
>...
>
> So anyway, now you just need to add in the extra points and turn it
> into a spreadsheet, then we can all compare notes.
>>

I see you're focusing on broken bones. That's nice, but I think it's
organs and other soft tissue that's far more important.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:50:04 +0200, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
><stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>>If I were to try to put a system together I think it would need a few weighting factors.

>Not a bad first stab, just a few pointers to things you may not have
>thought of, or thought through.

<snip>

I'm reassured that we've got exactly the right people on this job :-)
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 08:27:35 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

>On 9/23/2021 7:50 AM, Ace wrote:

>> So anyway, now you just need to add in the extra points and turn it
>> into a spreadsheet, then we can all compare notes.
>>>
>
>I see you're focusing on broken bones. That's nice, but I think it's
>organs and other soft tissue that's far more important.

Well, that was the starting point of the discussion, after all. But
sure, if you want to count ruptured liver and various ligaments
pulled, stretched and torn, then go for it. I do think it strays from
the point though, but I guess any accident injury could be counted.

In which case... well I guess I'm off the scale, TBH.
--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 23/09/2021 17:10, Champ wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:50:04 +0200, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
>> <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> If I were to try to put a system together I think it would need a few weighting factors.
>
>> Not a bad first stab, just a few pointers to things you may not have
>> thought of, or thought through.
>
> <snip>
>
> I'm reassured that we've got exactly the right people on this job :-)

I'm not: no wonder NI is about to go up - all of the Boris Bus Brexit
Saving has been spent on you lot and the rest of the NHS was left
wondering what happened to the cash!

:-)

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> a) Motorbike (self ridden while plastered, extra points if subsequent accident)

Not quite the same thing but it's recent so I'll slot it in here.
Local lad we know went to recover a bike his friend had crashed
earlier in the day.
At the first bend the steering lock jammed on and he rode head on into
another friend driving a car in the opposite direction; writing off
both the car and bike.
Both friends have broken legs from crashing the same bike on the same
day.
Neither rode their bike to the hospital......
There is an 'interesting' insurance problem between the second crasher
and his friend in the car.
--
Mark Roberts

On 9/23/2021 9:27 AM, Ace wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 08:27:35 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 9/23/2021 7:50 AM, Ace wrote:
>
>>> So anyway, now you just need to add in the extra points and turn it
>>> into a spreadsheet, then we can all compare notes.
>>>>
>>
>> I see you're focusing on broken bones. That's nice, but I think it's
>> organs and other soft tissue that's far more important.
>
> Well, that was the starting point of the discussion, after all. But
> sure, if you want to count ruptured liver and various ligaments
> pulled, stretched and torn, then go for it. I do think it strays from
> the point though, but I guess any accident injury could be counted.
>
> In which case... well I guess I'm off the scale, TBH.
>
I've been down a bunch of times, but the most dramatic was in 1980 when
a guy ran me down intentionally on the motorway at 60mph. I was wearing
sandals, a jumper and an open-face helmet. I went flying, hit the
cement, did a tuck and roll. The glass popped out of my spectacles and
the wire frames went in around my eyeballs, destroying my tear ducts. At
the time, it seemed really minor, but all the broken bones and scraped
skin healed fairly rapidly. Now, the tear duct issue is what may end my
riding career.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>1) Hierarchy of bones:
> a) Back / Neck
> b) Femur
> c) Tibia / Fibula
> d) Scapula
> e) Humerus
> f) Radius/Ulna
> g) Scaphoid
> h) Collar bone
> i) ribs
> j) finger/toes (and other small bones in feet and hands- extra points if digits lost)
> k) nose/cheek bones (extra points if cheek bone and helmet used to ride bike to hospital)

Skull proper? Not recommended as a means to increase the ranking, but
should be including when taking the increased possibility of death
into consideration.

Is there an argument that multiple concurrent injuries should simply
be additive, or does the inconvenience of being temporarily
quadriplegic mean extra points? Or perhaps the phenomenon of only
feeling one pain at a time might justify a decreased score?

Would repeating a break at a later date count for extra points for
reliability, or again is it to be considered as simply YTC level of
ineptitude and deprecated accordingly?

I'm thinking that we could end up with some very interesting
statistical results from all this - score versus age at time of injury
(that must be available somewhere in official stats), risk relative to
UKRM posting frequency (unlikely to exist - yet), that sort of thing.
--

Pete
Garage vacancy now filled, N+1 incremented accordingly
F800R

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:31:38 +0100, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:

>I'm no expert, but I thought cheek bone fractures could be fairly serious.

Certainly wipe the smile of one's face.

--

-Pip

On 23/09/2021 18:06, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>
> I'm not: no wonder NI is about to go up - all of the Boris Bus Brexit
> Saving has been spent on you lot and the rest of the NHS was left
> wondering what happened to the cash!

I thought you meant Norn Iron for a second (although it's true it's
quite likely to go up in the near future).

In article <ir4enoFt9mvU1@mid.individual.net>, Mike Fleming
says...
>
> On 23/09/2021 18:06, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> >
> > I'm not: no wonder NI is about to go up - all of the Boris Bus Brexit
> > Saving has been spent on you lot and the rest of the NHS was left
> > wondering what happened to the cash!
>
> I thought you meant Norn Iron for a second

As did I.

> (although it's true it's quite likely to go up in the
> > near future).

Bollox it is. The protocol is doing wonders for NI, there's
just a subset of unionists that are feeling hard done by.

Bed made and now they must sleep.

Turby wrote:
> That bed had an automatic machine that raised and lowered the
> lower torso every few minutes to alleviate blood clotting. But I'd had
> surgery a few years ago for a ruptured disc in my lower back, so every
> time the bed shifted, it sent agonizing pains through my back. "Sorry,
> sir, this is the only bed we have and there's no way to turn it off."
> FARK.

Couldn't they just unplug it ?

On 23/09/2021 23:56, petrolcan wrote:
> In article <ir4enoFt9mvU1@mid.individual.net>, Mike Fleming
> says...
>>
>> On 23/09/2021 18:06, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not: no wonder NI is about to go up - all of the Boris Bus Brexit
>>> Saving has been spent on you lot and the rest of the NHS was left
>>> wondering what happened to the cash!
>>
>> I thought you meant Norn Iron for a second
>
> As did I.
>
>> (although it's true it's quite likely to go up in the
>>> near future).
>
> Bollox it is. The protocol is doing wonders for NI, there's
> just a subset of unionists that are feeling hard done by.

Yebbut they're the ones that believe that a healthy dose of fire is the
solution to any problem. The DUP have a lot to answer for, you'd think
that a Norn Iron party would be pretty well placed to understand the
issues in squaring the circle of GB-NI-EU borders. Still, it appears
that they're fading in the polls.

Johnson and Frost aren't helping, of course, banging on about
renegotiating the treaty that they negotiated and signed.

> Bed made and now they must sleep.

More likely set fire to it.

On 24/09/2021 09:54, Sqirrel99 wrote:
> Turby wrote:
>> That bed had an automatic machine that raised and lowered the
>> lower torso every few minutes to alleviate blood clotting. But I'd had
>> surgery a few years ago for a ruptured disc in my lower back, so every
>> time the bed shifted, it sent agonizing pains through my back. "Sorry,
>> sir, this is the only bed we have and there's no way to turn it off."
>> FARK.
>
> Couldn't they just unplug it ?
>

They are Americans.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 19:10:11 UTC+1, Mark Roberts wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer

> There is an 'interesting' insurance problem between the second crasher
> and his friend in the car.

Fuck, that sounds like a bit of a minefield.

When I broke my leg in '85 I was riding pillion (because I was pissed enough to be incapable
of walking properly let alone riding) and the american driver (who was on the wrong side of the
fucking road...) denied any liability. Cunt.

My lawyer's advice was to sue my friend and have his insurance sort out the details with the car
driver's insurer. Well... my friend wasn't insured so it wasn't that easy; I didn't sue him but that
really slowed the claim up.

In your friend's cases I suspect some friendships are about to be strained at best...

On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 17:31:40 UTC+1, Eddie wrote:
> On 23/09/2021 15:03, Stephen Packer wrote:
> >
> > If I were to try to put a system together I think it would need a few weighting factors.
> > 1) Hierarchy of bones:
> > a) Back / Neck
> > b) Femur
> > c) Tibia / Fibula
> > d) Scapula
> > e) Humerus
> > f) Radius/Ulna
> > g) Scaphoid
> > h) Collar bone
> > i) ribs
> > j) finger/toes (and other small bones in feet and hands- extra points if digits lost)
> > k) nose/cheek bones (extra points if cheek bone and helmet used to ride bike to hospital)
> I'm no expert, but I thought cheek bone fractures could be fairly serious.

Quite possibly.

I'm also (clearly) no expert and the only reason I typed this out was because I was bored.
Oh... and because I (still) maintain that a simple broken, non displaced, rib is a pretty minor
injury. However I've lost the energy to argue about this when there are books to be read and
music to be listened to...

On 24/09/2021 13:27, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 17:31:40 UTC+1, Eddie wrote:

>> I'm no expert, but I thought cheek bone fractures could be fairly serious.
>
> Quite possibly.
>
> I'm also (clearly) no expert and the only reason I typed this out was because I was bored.
> Oh... and because I (still) maintain that a simple broken, non displaced, rib is a pretty minor
> injury. However I've lost the energy to argue about this when there are books to be read and
> music to be listened to...

Gah, I wish I could afford to retire.

--
Eddie eddie@deguello.org

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:31:38 +0100, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:

>
>I'm no expert, but I thought cheek bone fractures could be fairly serious.

One of the best batmen at our cricket club nearly lost an eye from a
cheekbone splinter, following a misjudged hook shot.
--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:03:08 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 09:02:45 UTC+1, Ace wrote:
>
>> You have a full-blown system now? Pray share. I'm intrigued to see
>> what factors you've decided to include and which to ignore.
>
>Well, of course I don't have a system but rely on the 'my injury is worse
>than your injury principle'.
>
>If I were to try to put a system together I think it would need a few weighting factors.
>1) Hierarchy of bones:
> a) Back / Neck
> b) Femur
> c) Tibia / Fibula
> d) Scapula
> e) Humerus
> f) Radius/Ulna
> g) Scaphoid
> h) Collar bone
> i) ribs
> j) finger/toes (and other small bones in feet and hands- extra points if digits lost)
> k) nose/cheek bones (extra points if cheek bone and helmet used to ride bike to hospital)

Is there no bonus adjustment for the number of fractures to each bone?

--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On 24/09/2021 13:38, Eddie wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 13:27, Stephen Packer wrote:
>> On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 17:31:40 UTC+1, Eddie wrote:
>
>>> I'm no expert, but I thought cheek bone fractures could be fairly
>>> serious.
>>
>> Quite possibly.
>>
>> I'm also (clearly) no expert and the only reason I typed this out was
>> because I was bored.
>> Oh... and because I (still) maintain that a simple broken, non
>> displaced, rib is a pretty minor
>> injury.  However I've lost the energy to argue about this when there
>> are books to be read and
>> music to be listened to...
>
> Gah, I wish I could afford to retire.
>

I'm verging towards it.
Just going to see how much work I do (or not) this year.

In the meantime I have sent Jean back out to work[1] :-)

[1] She has been on permanent kid duty for the ast 18 months to allow a
Child Care Social Worker and a Microbiologist (as in does the PCR tests)
to do their stuff.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

On 24/09/2021 14:21, Salad Dodger wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:31:38 +0100, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm no expert, but I thought cheek bone fractures could be fairly serious.
>
> One of the best batmen at our cricket club nearly lost an eye from a
> cheekbone splinter, following a misjudged hook shot.
>
*cough*
batter

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 15:11:14 +0100, YTC#1
<bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:

>On 24/09/2021 14:21, Salad Dodger wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:31:38 +0100, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm no expert, but I thought cheek bone fractures could be fairly serious.
>>
>> One of the best batsmen at our cricket club nearly lost an eye from a
>> cheekbone splinter, following a misjudged hook shot.
>>
>*cough*
>batter

This was the mid-eighties, so the terminology matched the Law at the
time.
--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:31:13 +0100, Pipl <pluscher@live.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:31:38 +0100, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:
>
>>I'm no expert, but I thought cheek bone fractures could be fairly serious.
>
>Certainly wipe the smile of one's face.

<g>

--
Colin Irvine
FJR1300A