Pamela formulated the question :
> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from Covid. Two
> thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had the vaccine and
> there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine itself.
>
> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
>
> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them nowhere.

+1

The Natural Philosopher wrote :
> I have had AZ and Pfizer. And several bouts of lung issues that may have
> been colds flus or covid.
>
> But since my lungs are shot anyway I also have a panoply of pills and
> inhalers I use daily, which probably helped as well.
>
> The fact is that these vaccines are not especially dangerous, just rather
> rushed through on account of the alternatives being worse.

+1

After serious thinking Cursitor Doom wrote :
> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>
> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
> undecided....

That is absolute nonsense.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:11:39 +1000, jon <jon@nospam.cn> wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 10:51:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines.
>>>>> So as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>> analysis ( I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics)
>>>>> I went and read the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I
>>>>> quite literally felt the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I
>>>>> read. There were red flags all over the application. I have written
>>>>> up my own observations from the period when I decided, no matter
>>>>> what, I was not getting an mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively
>>>>> easy to duck out of the system. To this day I shake my head in
>>>>> wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get approved and mandated
>>>>> for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was poison and I know I
>>>>> am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am the only one who
>>>>> saw those danger signals."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>> undecided....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>
>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>
>> No one cares about Yemen.
>>
>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
>> their muscles, It never ends well.
>>
>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
>> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
>> population behind him.
>
> Thought someone might have slit his throat by now.

He isn't actually stupid enough to let anyone close enough to do that.

On 27/04/2022 11:06, Jock wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:05:45 +1000, Pancho
> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>
>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis ( I
>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and read
>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red flags
>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations from
>>>> the
>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To this
>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>
>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>> undecided....
>>>   Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>
>>
>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>
>> Why do we care about Ukraine?
>
> Because it is Putin doing the invading and it is less clear where he
> will stop.
>

This is nonsense. Russia is an economy about the same size as Spain. It
is clear it can't even digest Ukraine. Allowing Russia a protracted war
in Ukraine just weakens Russia, like Afghanistan before it.

During my lifetime, it is the Russians that have given up territory and
the West that has been expansionist. No doubt, Jock's alter ego in
Russia is complaining about NATO and saying something has to be done to
stop NATO expansion.

Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that carries
with it the threat of Nuclear war. Them's been the rules throughout my
lifetime.

The USA has used its economic strength to threaten Russia. Given
sanctions etc, Putin now clearly feels the upside of economic trade with
the West isn't worth giving up influence over Ukraine. Allowing an enemy
control of it's neighbour. Russia will use its nuclear strength to
defend itself.

So I can't see any upside to the UK getting involved, apart from sucking
up to the USA. The USA, of course, is happy to see Europe pay the price
of increased energy costs.

>> We don't care about Yemen?
>
> The UK used to but eventually decided that stupid wogs would be stupid wogs
> and they weren't worth worrying about and stopped getting involved there.

So, a lot like the Slavs?

On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>
>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis ( I
>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and read
>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red flags
>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations from
>>>> the
>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To this
>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>
>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>> undecided....
>>>
>>>
>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>
>>
>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>
>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>
> No one cares about Yemen.
>
> However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
> their muscles, It never ends well.
>
> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
> population behind him.
>
>

Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?

The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony. He got in the
USA's way in Syria. Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't
strategically important. Any sensible person can see the real opposition
world power is China.

On 27/04/2022 11:53, Pancho wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 11:06, Jock wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:05:45 +1000, Pancho
>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis
>>>>> ( I
>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>> read
>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>> flags
>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>> from the
>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>> this
>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>> undecided....
>>>>   Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>
>>> Why do we care about Ukraine?
>>
>> Because it is Putin doing the invading and it is less clear where he
>> will stop.
>>
>
Mealy mouthed spin follows closely.

> This is nonsense. Russia is an economy about the same size as Spain. It
> is clear it can't even digest Ukraine. Allowing Russia a protracted war
> in Ukraine just weakens Russia, like Afghanistan before it.
>
Good

> During my lifetime, it is the Russians that have given up territory and
> the West that has been expansionist. No doubt, Jock's alter ego in
> Russia is complaining about NATO and saying something has to be done to
> stop NATO expansion.

Oh dear. Russia didn't 'give up territory' , According to its own
mythology all those satellite countries were in fact 'democracies' that
decided to rely on Russia 'for defence'. At a given point they decided
not to. Democratically. All Russia did was not send in the tanks to help
the puppet dictatorships retain control

>
> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that carries
> with it the threat of Nuclear war. Them's been the rules throughout my
> lifetime.
Well it seems it isn't in the sphere of influence and doesn't want to be,

>
> The USA has used its economic strength to threaten Russia. Given
> sanctions etc, Putin now clearly feels the upside of economic trade with
> the West isn't worth giving up influence over Ukraine. Allowing an enemy
> control of it's neighbour. Russia will use its nuclear strength to
> defend itself.
>
So sad. Russia and the middle eats have used their economic strength to
threaten the west and so has china.

Welcome to geopolitics

> So I can't see any upside to the UK getting involved, apart from sucking
> up to the USA. The USA, of course, is happy to see Europe pay the price
> of increased energy costs.
>
Either you are part of geopolitcs or you are someone else's colony.

UK, like Ukraine, has decided the former.

--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

On 27/04/2022 11:59, Pancho wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis
>>>>> ( I
>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>> read
>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>> flags
>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>> from the
>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>> this
>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>> undecided....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>
>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>
>> No one cares about Yemen.
>>
>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
>> their muscles, It never ends well.
>>
>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
>> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
>> population behind him.
>>
>>
>
> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>
> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony. He got in the
> USA's way in Syria. Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't
> strategically important. Any sensible person can see the real opposition
> world power is China.

Complete nonsense. We care because at the moment the best chance for a
regime change in Russia lies with the people rising up and saying what
they want.
At the moment we are, de facto if not de jure, at war with *Putin*. And
his criminal gang of oligarchs. We are not, and never want to be, at war
with the Russian people.

Ergo the geopolitical objective is to isolate the oligarchs and Putin,
but retain credibility with the Russian people.

Ukraine is strategically important because it borders on Russia, and has
been invaded by Putin, and is de facto at war with Putin. Supplying it
with weapons degrades Putin's thugs. Ukraine is strategically important
because it has a lot of resources - especially agricultural.

As far as China goes, its economy and its pollution and the pandemic are
out of control. Why else would it be playing war games in the pacific?

--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

On 10:03 27 Apr 2022, Pancho said:

> On 27/04/2022 08:23, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>
>>> I thought the mRNA vaccine was the Oxford-Zenica one, and that the
>>> Pfizer vaccine was more conventional. Have I got it the wrong way
>>> round?
>>
>> Yep, the AZ uses DNA from a chimpanzee cold virus with the covid
>> spike protein grafted into it
>
> AZ is a viral vector vaccine, which like mRNA is a new technology.
> Viral vector vaccines had only used for Ebola vaccines prior to
> Covid.
>
> I've had both, and Covid too. So I'm clearly doomed!

The delayed Valneva vaccine got approved in the UK earlier this month
and is an old style vaccine using inactivated viruses.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:53:51 +1000, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 11:06, Jock wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:05:45 +1000, Pancho
>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines.
>>>>> So
>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis
>>>>> ( I
>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>> read
>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>> flags
>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations from
>>>>> the
>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>> this
>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>> undecided....
>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>
>>> Why do we care about Ukraine?
>> Because it is Putin doing the invading and it is less clear where he
>> will stop.

> This is nonsense.

We'll see...

> Russia is an economy about the same size as Spain. It is clear it can't
> even digest Ukraine.

We have seen him do over Chechnya, Georgia, grab the Crimea
and now invade the Ukraine. He isn't planning to digest the
Ukraine, he just wants to grab two of the eastern provinces
and provide a land bridge to the Crimea and grab some
Baltic Sea ports.

> Allowing Russia a protracted war in Ukraine just weakens Russia,

You don't know that it will be a protracted war.

It wasn't with Chechnyna, Georgia or the Crimea.

> like Afghanistan before it.

We'll see...

> During my lifetime, it is the Russians that have given up territory and
> the West that has been expansionist.

Not by invasion with the West. The expansion of the EU has
been entirely voluntary with various countries choosing to join.

> No doubt, Jock's alter ego in Russia is complaining about NATO and
> saying something has to be done to stop NATO expansion.

NATO hasn't expanded by invasion.

It remains to be seen if Finland and Sweden will choose to join
NATO now that it has become clear what Putin is capable of.

> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence,

But has chosen to join the EU instead, just like
Poland, Austria, Hungary, Romania, the bits of
the old Yugoslavia etc etc etc all have.

> messing with that carries with it the threat of Nuclear war.

Bullshit. Even Putin isn't actually that stupid.

> Them's been the rules throughout my lifetime.

You are flagrantly misrepresenting the purported "rules"

> The USA has used its economic strength to threaten Russia.

Bullshit. Most of the eastern european countries that used
to be under the russian jackboot chose to leave the USSR
when it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU. The
Ukraine is just the most recent example of that.

> Given sanctions etc, Putin now clearly feels the upside of economic
> trade with the West isn't worth giving up influence over Ukraine.

Putin has been about grabbing the two eastern provinces
of the Ukraine for more than a decade now, initially with
unbadged russian troops and now with a full scale invasion.

> Allowing an enemy control of it's neighbour.

Putin gets no say on whether the Ukraine joins the EU.

> Russia will use its nuclear strength to defend itself.

Even Putin isn't that stupid and isn't defending itself.

> So I can't see any upside to the UK getting involved, apart from sucking
> up to the USA.

Your problem.

> The USA, of course, is happy to see Europe pay the price of increased
> energy costs.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

>>> We don't care about Yemen?

>> The UK used to but eventually decided that stupid wogs would be stupid
>> wogs
>> and they weren't worth worrying about and stopped getting involved
>> there.

> So, a lot like the Slavs?

Nope, nothing like that. That was in fact the UK deciding that now
that Aden is irrelevant, there was no point in staying involved there.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +1000, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines.
>>>>> So
>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis
>>>>> ( I
>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>> read
>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>> flags
>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations from
>>>>> the
>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>> this
>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>> undecided....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>
>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>> No one cares about Yemen.
>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
>> their muscles, It never ends well.
>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
>> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
>> population behind him.
>>
>
> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?

That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those russian
troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.

> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.

There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.

> He got in the USA's way in Syria.

That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very comprehensively
indeed.

> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.

Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to join the EU
if they want to.

> Any sensible person can see the real opposition world power is China.

They have only invaded Tibet and a few uninhabited islands
in the South China Sea and got a very bloody nose when they
tried it with Vietnam.

Jock wrote:

> Pancho wrote:
>
>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence,
>> messing with that carries with it the threat of Nuclear war.
>
> Bullshit. Even Putin isn't actually that stupid.
Two months ago, I would have said he wasn't stupid enough to invade Ukraine,
thought he was just tugging our chain to get something else in return

On 27/04/2022 12:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 11:53, Pancho wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 11:06, Jock wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:05:45 +1000, Pancho
>>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the
>>>>>> vaccines. So
>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>>> analysis ( I
>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>>> read
>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>>> flags
>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>>> from the
>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>   Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>
>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine?
>>>
>>> Because it is Putin doing the invading and it is less clear where he
>>> will stop.
>>>
>>
> Mealy mouthed spin follows closely.
>
>> This is nonsense. Russia is an economy about the same size as Spain.
>> It is clear it can't even digest Ukraine. Allowing Russia a protracted
>> war in Ukraine just weakens Russia, like Afghanistan before it.
>>
> Good
>
>> During my lifetime, it is the Russians that have given up territory
>> and the West that has been expansionist. No doubt, Jock's alter ego in
>> Russia is complaining about NATO and saying something has to be done
>> to stop NATO expansion.
>
> Oh dear. Russia didn't 'give up territory' , According to its own
> mythology all those satellite countries were in fact 'democracies' that
> decided to rely on Russia 'for defence'. At a given point they decided
> not to. Democratically. All Russia did was not send in the tanks to help
> the puppet dictatorships retain control
>

Propaganda doesn't negate the fact they were under Russian
control/influence.

>>
>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war. Them's been the rules
>> throughout my lifetime.
> Well it seems it isn't in the sphere of influence and doesn't want to be,
>

Yes, we know that. That is what the war is about. My point was, why do
*we* care?

The idea that any region should have the right to self-determination is
nonsense. Nations are communities, if I discover gold in my back garden
it isn't reasonable to declare independence, just so I can keep all the
wealth to myself.

For instance, Barcelona and Spain. Strength/power dominates.

>>
>> The USA has used its economic strength to threaten Russia. Given
>> sanctions etc, Putin now clearly feels the upside of economic trade
>> with the West isn't worth giving up influence over Ukraine. Allowing
>> an enemy control of it's neighbour. Russia will use its nuclear
>> strength to defend itself.
>>
> So sad. Russia and the middle eats have used their economic strength to
> threaten the west and so has china.
>
> Welcome to geopolitics
>

Yes, but Russia wasn't really threatening the West. All they did was
stifle the West in Syria. Irritating, but we really shouldn't have been
messing with Syria. Syria is another country of negligible strategic
importance to us.

>
>> So I can't see any upside to the UK getting involved, apart from
>> sucking up to the USA. The USA, of course, is happy to see Europe pay
>> the price of increased energy costs.
>>
> Either you are part of geopolitcs or you are someone else's colony.
>
> UK, like Ukraine, has decided the former.
>

Are you sure we aren't a colony? I don't see much scope for us going
against the USA's wishes.

We shall see what Ukraine gets. My fear is they will get an ongoing
conflict. The more effective we are at damaging Russia, the more
destructive Russia will be in Ukraine.

My view is similar to Merkel's. If we had offered more carrot, we would
have gradually been able to reform Russia into a reasonable European
friend. I don't think the USA wanted that to happen. Strengthening
Europe, an ally, but still a competitor, isn't in its geopolitical interest.

On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:

>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>
> That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those russian
> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>

Yes, but the question was, "why do we care?"

>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>
> There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>
>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>
> That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very comprehensively
> indeed.
>

No, the USA wanted to replace Assad. Assad is a Russian and Iranian
ally. ISIS were a side show, filling the instability void the US had
created in the region.

>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>
> Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to join the
> EU if they want to.
>

The Russians don't see that.

>> Any sensible person can see the real opposition world power is China.
>
> They have only invaded Tibet and a few uninhabited islands
> in the South China Sea and got a very bloody nose when they
> tried it with Vietnam.

We are taking power. Normally this is economic power, war is mainly to
promote an economic advantage.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:38:09 +1000, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Jock wrote:
>
>> Pancho wrote:
>>
>>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war.
>> Bullshit. Even Putin isn't actually that stupid.

> Two months ago, I would have said he wasn't stupid enough to invade
> Ukraine,

I wouldn't given Chechnya, Georgia, grabbing the Crimea and
sending in unbadged russian troops to the Ukraine in 2014

> thought he was just tugging our chain to get something else in return

Doesn't explain Chechnya, Georgia, grabbing the Crimea and
sending in unbadged russian troops to the Ukraine in 2014

On 27/04/2022 12:38, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jock wrote:
>
>> Pancho wrote:
>>
>>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war.
>>
>> Bullshit. Even Putin isn't actually that stupid.
> Two months ago, I would have said he wasn't stupid enough to invade
> Ukraine, thought he was just tugging our chain to get something else in
> return

I said exactly that, and was totally wrong. It seemed to me far too
risky for an established leader like Putin to contemplate.

I think Putin has now successfully established strong Madman credentials.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_theory>

Hence, I have low confidence of predicting his future actions.

FWIW Madman theory is why I supported Boris in the last Election, I
thought unpredictability better than May's conciliatory approach to
Brexit. (I was a remainer).

On 27/04/2022 12:52, Jock wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:38:09 +1000, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
>> Jock wrote:
>>
>>> Pancho wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>>>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war.
>>>  Bullshit. Even Putin isn't actually that stupid.
>
>> Two months ago, I would have said he wasn't stupid enough to invade
>> Ukraine,
>
> I wouldn't given Chechnya, Georgia, grabbing the Crimea and
> sending in unbadged russian troops to the Ukraine in 2014
>
>> thought he was just tugging our chain to get something else in return
>
> Doesn't explain Chechnya, Georgia, grabbing the Crimea and
> sending in unbadged russian troops to the Ukraine in 2014

Those were relatively safe strategies, from Putin's viewpoint. I think
you are confusing stupid with discreditable.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:40:29 +1000, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 12:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 11:53, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 11:06, Jock wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:05:45 +1000, Pancho
>>>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the
>>>>>>> vaccines. So
>>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>>>> analysis ( I
>>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>>>>>>> felt
>>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>>>> flags
>>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA
>>>>>>> jab.
>>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as
>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine?
>>>>
>>>> Because it is Putin doing the invading and it is less clear where he
>>>> will stop.
>>>>
>>>
>> Mealy mouthed spin follows closely.
>>
>>> This is nonsense. Russia is an economy about the same size as Spain.
>>> It is clear it can't even digest Ukraine. Allowing Russia a protracted
>>> war in Ukraine just weakens Russia, like Afghanistan before it.
>>>
>> Good
>>
>>> During my lifetime, it is the Russians that have given up territory
>>> and the West that has been expansionist. No doubt, Jock's alter ego in
>>> Russia is complaining about NATO and saying something has to be done
>>> to stop NATO expansion.
>> Oh dear. Russia didn't 'give up territory' , According to its own
>> mythology all those satellite countries were in fact 'democracies' that
>> decided to rely on Russia 'for defence'. At a given point they decided
>> not to. Democratically. All Russia did was not send in the tanks to
>> help the puppet dictatorships retain control
>>
>
> Propaganda doesn't negate the fact they were under Russian
> control/influence.

Your spin doesn't alter the fact that they were in fact under the russian
jackboot
and when Gorby gave up on applying that, the vast bulk of them chose to
declare independance and most chose to join the EU because they decided
that it was working a hell of a lot better than russia was. Their choice.

>>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war. Them's been the rules
>>> throughout my lifetime.
>> Well it seems it isn't in the sphere of influence and doesn't want to
>> be,
>>
>
> Yes, we know that. That is what the war is about. My point was, why do
> *we* care?

Because we don't like the idea that Putin gets any say on who
prefers to join the EU than have anything to do with russia.

> The idea that any region should have the right to self-determination is
> nonsense.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

> Nations are communities, if I discover gold in my back garden it isn't
> reasonable to declare independence, just so I can keep all the wealth to
> myself.

But an independant country is free to decide which other countries
that it chooses to cooperate with and to even join with in operations
like the EU.

> For instance, Barcelona and Spain. Strength/power dominates.

Pity about the EU which is a voluntary association.

Unlike the USSR.

>>> The USA has used its economic strength to threaten Russia. Given
>>> sanctions etc, Putin now clearly feels the upside of economic trade
>>> with the West isn't worth giving up influence over Ukraine. Allowing
>>> an enemy control of it's neighbour. Russia will use its nuclear
>>> strength to defend itself.
>>>
>> So sad. Russia and the middle eats have used their economic strength to
>> threaten the west and so has china.
>> Welcome to geopolitics
>>
>
> Yes, but Russia wasn't really threatening the West. All they did was
> stifle the West in Syria.

Bullshit they did.

> Irritating, but we really shouldn't have been messing with Syria.

That's arguable too given that the invasion of Iraq is what produced ISIS.

And why is it fine for Russia to get involved there ?

> Syria is another country of negligible strategic importance to us.

It isn't just about strategic importance.

>>> So I can't see any upside to the UK getting involved, apart from
>>> sucking up to the USA. The USA, of course, is happy to see Europe pay
>>> the price of increased energy costs.
>>>
>> Either you are part of geopolitcs or you are someone else's colony.
>> UK, like Ukraine, has decided the former.
>>
>
> Are you sure we aren't a colony?

Corse the UK isnt.

> I don't see much scope for us going against the USA's wishes.

How odd that the UK didn't get involved in Vietnam.

> We shall see what Ukraine gets. My fear is they will get an ongoing
> conflict. The more effective we are at damaging Russia, the more
> destructive Russia will be in Ukraine.

That's bullshit too.

> My view is similar to Merkel's. If we had offered more carrot, we would
> have gradually been able to reform Russia into a reasonable European
> friend.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

> I don't think the USA wanted that to happen. Strengthening Europe, an
> ally, but still a competitor, isn't in its geopolitical interest.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:46:42 +1000, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:
>
>>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>> That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those
>> russian
>> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
>> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>>
>
> Yes, but the question was, "why do we care?"

Because we don't see that Putin gets any say in whether the
Ukraine chooses to join the EU and doesn't get to grab the
two eastern provinces of the Ukraine after he encouraged
lots of retired russian troops to move there for the free housing.

>>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>> There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
>> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
>> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>>
>>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>> That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very comprehensively
>> indeed.
>>
>
> No,

Yes.

> the USA wanted to replace Assad.

Nope.

> Assad is a Russian and Iranian ally. ISIS were a side show,

Nope, that was the reason Trump got involved.

> filling the instability void the US had created in the region.

There never was any void.

>>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>> Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to join
>> the EU if they want to.
>>
>
> The Russians don't see that.

They are irrelevant, it ain't their country.

>>> Any sensible person can see the real opposition world power is China.
>> They have only invaded Tibet and a few uninhabited islands
>> in the South China Sea and got a very bloody nose when they
>> tried it with Vietnam.
>
> We are taking power.

China has no power.

> Normally this is economic power, war is mainly to promote an economic
> advantage.

That's bullshit too in modern times.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:58:26 +1000, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 12:52, Jock wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:38:09 +1000, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jock wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pancho wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>>>>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war.
>>>> Bullshit. Even Putin isn't actually that stupid.
>>
>>> Two months ago, I would have said he wasn't stupid enough to invade
>>> Ukraine,
>> I wouldn't given Chechnya, Georgia, grabbing the Crimea and
>> sending in unbadged russian troops to the Ukraine in 2014
>>
>>> thought he was just tugging our chain to get something else in return
>> Doesn't explain Chechnya, Georgia, grabbing the Crimea and
>> sending in unbadged russian troops to the Ukraine in 2014
>
> Those were relatively safe strategies, from Putin's viewpoint.

So is grabbing the two eastern provinces of the Ukraine,
particularly for a psychopath like Putin who couldn't care
less about how many russian troops end up dead, or how
many of what he considers his enemies he gets murdered.

> I think you are confusing stupid with discreditable.

You are wrong there too.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:59:08 +0100, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis ( I
>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and read
>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red flags
>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations from
>>>>> the
>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To this
>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>> undecided....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>
>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>
>> No one cares about Yemen.
>>
>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
>> their muscles, It never ends well.
>>
>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
>> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
>> population behind him.
>>
>>
>
>Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?

They're *already* united behind him.

>
>The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony. He got in the
>USA's way in Syria. Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't
>strategically important. Any sensible person can see the real opposition
>world power is China.

+1

On 27/04/2022 10:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 10:03, Pancho wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 08:23, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>
>>>> I thought the mRNA vaccine was the Oxford-Zenica one, and that the
>>>> Pfizer vaccine was more conventional. Have I got it the wrong way
>>>> round?
>>>
>>> Yep, the AZ uses DNA from a chimpanzee cold virus with the covid
>>> spike protein grafted into it
>>
>> AZ is a viral vector vaccine, which like mRNA is a new technology.
>> Viral vector vaccines had only used for Ebola vaccines prior to Covid.
>>
>> I've had both, and Covid too. So I'm clearly doomed!
>
> I have had AZ and Pfizer.  And several bouts of lung issues that may
> have been colds flus or covid.
>
> But since my lungs are shot anyway I also have a panoply of pills and
> inhalers I use daily, which probably helped as well.
>
> The fact is that these vaccines are not especially dangerous, just
> rather rushed through on  account of the alternatives being worse.

And probably important to note that "rushed" in this context just means
a much reduced time frame, rather than cutting corners with clinical
trials and testing.

i.e. you can still do all the normal clinical trials in a fraction of
the time if :

You can produce the actual vaccine in adequate quantity quickly
(something the new tech vaccines make much easier, since they don't
require a large stock of the virus to be cultured as a precursor)

You can raise funds to do the trial quickly, and there is an adequate
pool of volunteers available for trials, and enough prevalence of
infections in the wild to test against.

You get guaranteed underwriting of all the follow on costs such that you
can afford to overlap the stages of trials (normally you would wait
until the initial trials show both safety and efficacy before deciding
whether to move to the next stage). In this case, as the costs were all
underwritten from the start, they could move straight to the next stage
as soon as the initial one showed it was safe even if the jury was still
out on the level of efficacy.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 10:05:45 +0100, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>
>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis ( I
>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and read
>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red flags
>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations from the
>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To this
>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>
>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>
>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>> undecided....
>>
>>
>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>
>
>Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>
>Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?

Never heard of the Aden Emergency?

On 27/04/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 10:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 10:03, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 08:23, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I thought the mRNA vaccine was the Oxford-Zenica one, and that the
>>>>> Pfizer vaccine was more conventional. Have I got it the wrong way
>>>>> round?
>>>>
>>>> Yep, the AZ uses DNA from a chimpanzee cold virus with the covid
>>>> spike protein grafted into it
>>>
>>> AZ is a viral vector vaccine, which like mRNA is a new technology.
>>> Viral vector vaccines had only used for Ebola vaccines prior to Covid.
>>>
>>> I've had both, and Covid too. So I'm clearly doomed!
>>
>> I have had AZ and Pfizer.  And several bouts of lung issues that may
>> have been colds flus or covid.
>>
>> But since my lungs are shot anyway I also have a panoply of pills and
>> inhalers I use daily, which probably helped as well.
>>
>> The fact is that these vaccines are not especially dangerous, just
>> rather rushed through on  account of the alternatives being worse.
>
> And probably important to note that "rushed" in this context just means
> a much reduced time frame, rather than cutting corners with clinical
> trials and testing.
>
> i.e. you can still do all the normal clinical trials in a fraction of
> the time if :
>
> You can produce the actual vaccine in adequate quantity quickly
> (something the new tech vaccines make much easier, since they don't
> require a large stock of the virus to be cultured as a precursor)
>
> You can raise funds to do the trial quickly, and there is an adequate
> pool of volunteers available for trials, and enough prevalence of
> infections in the wild to test against.
>
> You get guaranteed underwriting of all the follow on costs such that you
> can afford to overlap the stages of trials (normally you would wait
> until the initial trials show both safety and efficacy before deciding
> whether to move to the next stage). In this case, as the costs were all
> underwritten from the start, they could move straight to the next stage
> as soon as the initial one showed it was safe even if the jury was still
> out on the level of efficacy.
>

Plus the regulator gearing up to do everything it could to remove
avoidable delay - essentially carrying out a "rolling review" during the
trials rather than waiting for everything to be presented after the end,
all neatly wrapped up and tied with a ribbon and bow.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 27/04/2022 13:25, Jock wrote:

>> Those were relatively safe strategies, from Putin's viewpoint.
>
> So is grabbing the two eastern provinces of the Ukraine,
> particularly for a psychopath like Putin who couldn't care
> less about how many russian troops end up dead, or how
> many of what he considers his enemies he gets murdered.
>

Putin cares, because it affects his support, his ability to remain in power.

If things get bad, Putin's powerful backers or the Russian population
may turn against him and remove him from power. I think the probability
of that happening has significantly increased.