In article <642h6h1peu7spsqoci73f99e27oscc2la3@4ax.com>,
Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis (
> I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
> read the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
> felt the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
> flags all over the application. I have written up my own observations
> from the period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
> mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
> system. To this day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this
> poison ever get approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO
> obvious it was poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and
> insightful that I am the only one who saw those danger signals."

> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r

> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
> undecided....

Doom by name and Doom by nature.

Willing to bet the vast majority of the old farts on here are double
jabbed and boosted. Many a second booster.

But nothing will change your odd view of things.

--
*WHY IS IT CALLED TOURIST SEASON IF WE CAN'T SHOOT AT THEM?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <t4avoo$2eu$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
> If you want to see what happens without truly effective Covid vaccines
> then Brazil and China are the places to look. Shanghai is presently
> locked down because the Chinese home grown vaccine is not as good.

> https://www.ft.com/content/c0ea8d54-fb8f-44b8-8bcd-8f791dd4266b

> Their zero tolerance and lockdown approach really isn't working.

But then the likes of Doom isn't influenced by facts.

--
*The statement above is false

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <7x0lsSM7VQaiFwHU@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>,
Tim Lamb <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <642h6h1peu7spsqoci73f99e27oscc2la3@4ax.com>, Cursitor Doom
> <cd@notformail.com> writes
> >"I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
> >as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis (
> >I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
> >read the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
> >felt the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
> >flags all over the application. I have written up my own observations
> >from the period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
> >mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
> >system. To this day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this
> >poison ever get approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO
> >obvious it was poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and
> >insightful that I am the only one who saw those danger signals."
> >
> >https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
> >
> >Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
> >undecided....

> Just had my booster. So that is 4 lots of evidence that there is
> something amiss with your hypothesis and sources.

I've had my second booster. ;-)

--
*I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/04/2022 11:53, Pancho wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 11:06, Jock wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:05:45 +1000, Pancho
>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis
>>>>> ( I
>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>> read
>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>> flags
>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>> from the
>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>> this
>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>> undecided....
>>>>   Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>
>>> Why do we care about Ukraine?
>>
>> Because it is Putin doing the invading and it is less clear where he
>> will stop.
>>
>
> This is nonsense. Russia is an economy about the same size as Spain. It
> is clear it can't even digest Ukraine. Allowing Russia a protracted war
> in Ukraine just weakens Russia, like Afghanistan before it.
>
> During my lifetime, it is the Russians that have given up territory and
> the West that has been expansionist. No doubt, Jock's alter ego in
> Russia is complaining about NATO and saying something has to be done to
> stop NATO expansion.

The Russians have not given up territory. The Soviet Union broke up and
the individual countries within it decided which way their future lay.

> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that carries
> with it the threat of Nuclear war. Them's been the rules throughout my
> lifetime.

Ukraine surely has the right to decide its own future?

> The USA has used its economic strength to threaten Russia. Given
> sanctions etc, Putin now clearly feels the upside of economic trade with
> the West isn't worth giving up influence over Ukraine. Allowing an enemy
> control of it's neighbour. Russia will use its nuclear strength to
> defend itself.

By invading, Russia has made Ukraine its enemy. No-one is invading
Russia, so it has nothing to defend itself against. Retaining nuclear
weapons to deter or respond to an invasion is one thing, using them
because someone "might" attack in the future is very different.

> So I can't see any upside to the UK getting involved, apart from sucking
> up to the USA. The USA, of course, is happy to see Europe pay the price
> of increased energy costs.

So any country with sufficient weaponry is allowed to invade anyone it
likes, without a response from the rest of the world?

On 27/04/2022 11:59, Pancho wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis
>>>>> ( I
>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>> read
>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>> flags
>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>> from the
>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>> this
>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>> undecided....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>
>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>
>> No one cares about Yemen.
>>
>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
>> their muscles, It never ends well.
>>
>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
>> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
>> population behind him.
>>
>>
>
> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>
> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony. He got in the
> USA's way in Syria. Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't
> strategically important.

If it isn't important, how come food and mineral, etc. prices have gone
sky high? Ukraine is a very important part of the world economy, despite
its economic size.

> Any sensible person can see the real opposition
> world power is China.

No doubt about that.

On 27/04/2022 14:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <642h6h1peu7spsqoci73f99e27oscc2la3@4ax.com>,
> Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis (
>> I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>> read the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>> felt the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>> flags all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>> from the period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
>> mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
>> system. To this day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this
>> poison ever get approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO
>> obvious it was poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and
>> insightful that I am the only one who saw those danger signals."
>
>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>
>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>> undecided....
>
> Doom by name and Doom by nature.
>
> Willing to bet the vast majority of the old farts on here are double
> jabbed and boosted. Many a second booster.

I even managed to sneak in early as my partner was in the first cohort,
but I wasn't due until the second. However, when they phoned to say
could she come in that afternoon, I asked if I could be done at the same
time and they agreed.

> But nothing will change your odd view of things.

Nor that of my next door neighbour, who tells me that the vaccines are
killing people and it is being covered up by the government.

--
Colin Bignell

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

>"I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis (
>I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>read the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>felt the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>flags all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>from the period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
>mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
>system. To this day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this
>poison ever get approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO
>obvious it was poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and
>insightful that I am the only one who saw those danger signals."
>
>https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>
>Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>undecided....
You are an imbecile.

On 27/04/2022 09:47, Pamela wrote:
> On 09:14 27 Apr 2022, Chris Hogg said:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 08:23:15 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>
>>>> I thought the mRNA vaccine was the Oxford-Zenica one, and that the
>>>> Pfizer vaccine was more conventional. Have I got it the wrong way
>>>> round?
>>>
>>> Yep, the AZ uses DNA from a chimpanzee cold virus with the covid
>>> spike protein grafted into it
>>
>> So, CD, why are you getting all worked up about the Pfizer vaccine?
>
> I was wondering that too. Surely this debate is over.
>
> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from Covid. Two
> thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had the vaccine and
> there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine itself.
>
> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
>
> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them nowhere.

People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why not
continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle to
include religion and holy books?

Do you believe in some mythical deity?

On 27/04/2022 13:36, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:59:08 +0100, Pancho
> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis ( I
>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and read
>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red flags
>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To this
>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>
>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>>
>>> No one cares about Yemen.
>>>
>>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
>>> their muscles, It never ends well.
>>>
>>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
>>> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
>>> population behind him.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>
> They're *already* united behind him.

Many are (who exist on a diet of state sponsored information), but in
time that may change, it is much harder in this day and age to make your
borders "information tight". It is also difficult to hide thousands of
conscripts not returning from the "special military operation" that he
promised they had not been sent to!.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 27/04/2022 12:54, Pancho wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 12:38, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Jock wrote:
>>
>>> Pancho wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>>>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war.
>>>
>>> Bullshit. Even Putin isn't actually that stupid.
>> Two months ago, I would have said he wasn't stupid enough to invade
>> Ukraine, thought he was just tugging our chain to get something else
>> in return
>
> I said exactly that, and was totally wrong. It seemed to me far too
> risky for an established leader like Putin to contemplate.
>
> I think Putin has now successfully established strong Madman credentials.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_theory>
>
> Hence, I have low confidence of predicting his future actions.

Yup he is certainly calculating enough for that to be possible. Although
it might also be that he believes he is going to croak soon, and he
really is off his rocker!

>
> FWIW Madman theory is why I supported Boris in the last Election, I
> thought unpredictability better than May's conciliatory approach to
> Brexit. (I was a remainer).

There is a reasonable argument for that - the reasonable man will alter
his position to better fit in with world as he finds it. The
unreasonable one will expect the world to change and fit in with him.
Sometimes you need unreasonable men to get progress!

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 04:43:51 +1000, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 13:36, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:59:08 +0100, Pancho
>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the
>>>>>>> vaccines. So
>>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>>>> analysis ( I
>>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>>>>>>> felt
>>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>>>> flags
>>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA
>>>>>>> jab.
>>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as
>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>>>
>>>> No one cares about Yemen.
>>>>
>>>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
>>>> their muscles, It never ends well.
>>>>
>>>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
>>>> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
>>>> population behind him.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>> They're *already* united behind him.
>
> Many are (who exist on a diet of state sponsored information), but in
> time that may change, it is much harder in this day and age to make your
> borders "information tight". It is also difficult to hide thousands of
> conscripts not returning from the "special military operation" that he
> promised they had not been sent to!.

Putin claims that no conscripts are being used in the invasion of the
Ukraine.

It is less clear if that is a lie or not.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 22:59:44 +1000, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 13:25, Jock wrote:
>
>>> Those were relatively safe strategies, from Putin's viewpoint.
>> So is grabbing the two eastern provinces of the Ukraine,
>> particularly for a psychopath like Putin who couldn't care
>> less about how many russian troops end up dead, or how
>> many of what he considers his enemies he gets murdered.
>>
>
> Putin cares, because it affects his support, his ability to remain in
> power.

No it does not. There haven't been anywhere near enough of his
troops killed for there to be any threat to his capacity to remain
in power, given that he has his opposition murdered or jailed
or exiled.

> If things get bad, Putin's powerful backers

He doesn't have powerful backers, Russia doesn't work like that.

HE is the powerful one. Same with Stalin.

> or the Russian population may turn against him and remove him from power.

Russia doesn't work like that. There is no way for
the russian population to remove him from power.

> I think the probability of that happening has significantly increased.

I know that it hasn't given that very few in russia
even object to what he is doing in the Ukraine,
essentially because his propaganda system is
so effective.

The Russians never did remove Stalin from power
and in fact many burst into tears when it was
announced that he had died.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:54:25 +1000, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 12:38, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Jock wrote:
>>
>>> Pancho wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>>>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war.
>>>
>>> Bullshit. Even Putin isn't actually that stupid.
>> Two months ago, I would have said he wasn't stupid enough to invade
>> Ukraine, thought he was just tugging our chain to get something else in
>> return
>
> I said exactly that, and was totally wrong. It seemed to me far too
> risky for an established leader like Putin to contemplate.
>
> I think Putin has now successfully established strong Madman credentials.

Nothing mad about what he has been doing. It has worked fine
for him every time, including getting to drive the bus in russia.

> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_theory>
>
> Hence, I have low confidence of predicting his future actions.

I have complete confidence that he won't be initiating a full nuclear
holocaust.

It is is likely he will invade Moldova and may invade Finland.

Which is why Finland is considering joining NATO.

> FWIW Madman theory is why I supported Boris in the last Election, I
> thought unpredictability better than May's conciliatory approach to
> Brexit. (I was a remainer).

So you got that wrong too, Boris delivered what he said he would deliver.

On 27/04/2022 21:23, Jock wrote:
> Which is why Finland is considering joining NATO.

Post Ukraine Finland is considering joining NATO. It wasn't before,
which I'm sure isn't what Putain had in mind.

Andy

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 06:52:03 +1000, Vir Campestris
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 21:23, Jock wrote:
>> Which is why Finland is considering joining NATO.
>
> Post Ukraine Finland is considering joining NATO. It wasn't before,
> which I'm sure isn't what Putain had in mind.

Yeah, he really stuffed that up given that he hates the
idea of countries which border russia being in NATO.

On 4/27/2022 9:09 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <642h6h1peu7spsqoci73f99e27oscc2la3@4ax.com>,
> Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis (
>> I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>> read the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>> felt the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>> flags all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>> from the period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
>> mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
>> system. To this day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this
>> poison ever get approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO
>> obvious it was poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and
>> insightful that I am the only one who saw those danger signals."
>
>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>
>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>> undecided....
>
> Doom by name and Doom by nature.
>
> Willing to bet the vast majority of the old farts on here are double
> jabbed and boosted. Many a second booster.
>
> But nothing will change your odd view of things.
>

Here's the "letter".

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/smksja/dr_dave_cartland_uk_letter/

Maybe it looks better with formatting or something.

Paul

On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +1000, Pancho
> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the
>>>>>> vaccines. So
>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>>> analysis ( I
>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>>> read
>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally felt
>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>>> flags
>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>>> from the
>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA jab.
>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever get
>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it was
>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I am
>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>
>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>>  No one cares about Yemen.
>>>  However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
>>> their muscles, It never ends well.
>>>  To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
>>> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
>>> population behind him.
>>>
>>
>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>
> That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those russian
> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>
>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>
> There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>
>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>
> That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very comprehensively
> indeed.

They fucked the country more than ISIS would ever have done.

>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>
> Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to join the
> EU if they want to.

Should may be the key word, but it was because Zelenskyy wanted Ukraine
join NATO that has caused this war. He's now back=pedalled but its too late.

>> Any sensible person can see the real opposition world power is China.
>
> They have only invaded Tibet and a few uninhabited islands
> in the South China Sea and got a very bloody nose when they
> tried it with Vietnam.

I think China and the weapons at its disposal have moved on since. A war
generally lasts more than one month too.

On 27/04/2022 13:13, Jock wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:46:42 +1000, Pancho
> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:
>>
>>>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>>>  That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those
>>> russian
>>> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
>>> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but the question was, "why do we care?"
>
> Because we don't see that Putin gets any say in whether the
> Ukraine chooses to join the EU and doesn't get to grab the
> two eastern provinces of the Ukraine after he encouraged
> lots of retired russian troops to move there for the free housing.
>
>>>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>>>  There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
>>> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
>>> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>>>
>>>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>>>  That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very comprehensively
>>> indeed.
>>>
>>
>> No,
>
> Yes.
>
>> the USA wanted to replace Assad.
>
> Nope.
>
>> Assad is a Russian and Iranian ally. ISIS were a side show,
>
> Nope, that was the reason Trump got involved.

Yep.

>> filling the instability void the US had created in the region.
>
> There never was any void.

There was after the USA funded various terrorist groups such as the Free
Syrian Army.

>>>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>>>  Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to join
>>> the EU if they want to.
>>>
>>
>> The Russians don't see that.
>
> They are irrelevant, it ain't their country.

Are you bind to the reasons why Russia invaded Ukraine?

>>>> Any sensible person can see the real opposition world power is China.
>>>  They have only invaded Tibet and a few uninhabited islands
>>> in the South China Sea and got a very bloody nose when they
>>> tried it with Vietnam.
>>
>> We are taking power.
>
> China has no power.

You're now looking stupid.

>> Normally this is economic power, war is mainly to promote an economic
>> advantage.
>
> That's bullshit too in modern times.

It is very true. War is often out of some hardship, there are articles
on the US booming economy once they joined WW2.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:30:26 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +1000, Pancho
>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the
>>>>>>> vaccines. So
>>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>>>> analysis ( I
>>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>>>>>>> felt
>>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>>>>> flags
>>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA
>>>>>>> jab.
>>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system. To
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as
>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>>> No one cares about Yemen.
>>>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start flexing
>>>> their muscles, It never ends well.
>>>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and politically
>>>> more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And doesnt unite his
>>>> population behind him.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>> That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those
>> russian
>> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
>> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>>
>>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>> There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
>> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
>> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>>
>>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>> That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very comprehensively
>> indeed.
>
> They fucked the country more than ISIS would ever have done.

Bullshit.

>>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>> Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to join
>> the EU if they want to.
>
> Should may be the key word, but it was because Zelenskyy wanted Ukraine
> join NATO that has caused this war.

Nope, he only wanted to join the EU because it works a
hell of a lot better than Russia does for the hangers on.

And regardless, Putin gets no say on who can join NATO
anyway and his invasion will likely see Finland join NATO now.

> He's now back=pedalled but its too late.

We'll see...

There is no possibility that Putin will be able to grab the whole
of the Ukraine. The most he might manage is the two eastern
provinces of the Ukraine which have lots of russian immigrants.

>>> Any sensible person can see the real opposition world power is China.
>> They have only invaded Tibet and a few uninhabited islands
>> in the South China Sea and got a very bloody nose when they
>> tried it with Vietnam.
>
> I think China and the weapons at its disposal have moved on since.

You'd be wrong with what is used to invade a country.

> A war generally lasts more than one month too.

Yes, but Russia got kicked out of Afghanistan with
its tail between its legs. The Ukraine and Afghanistan
are actually very similar in size and population with
the Ukraine FAR more technically sophisticated as
we have seen when their anti ship missiles sank the
Moskva, one of the best navy vessels the Russians
used to have, the flagship of their Black Sea fleet.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:35:44 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 13:13, Jock wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:46:42 +1000, Pancho
>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>>>> That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those
>>>> russian
>>>> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
>>>> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but the question was, "why do we care?"
>> Because we don't see that Putin gets any say in whether the
>> Ukraine chooses to join the EU and doesn't get to grab the
>> two eastern provinces of the Ukraine after he encouraged
>> lots of retired russian troops to move there for the free housing.
>>
>>>>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>>>> There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
>>>> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
>>>> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>>>>
>>>>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>>>> That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very comprehensively
>>>> indeed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No,
>> Yes.
>>
>>> the USA wanted to replace Assad.
>> Nope.
>>
>>> Assad is a Russian and Iranian ally. ISIS were a side show,
>> Nope, that was the reason Trump got involved.
>
> Yep.
>
>>> filling the instability void the US had created in the region.
>> There never was any void.
>
> There was after the USA funded various terrorist groups such as the Free
> Syrian Army.

That's not a VOID.

>>>>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>>>> Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to join
>>>> the EU if they want to.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Russians don't see that.
>> They are irrelevant, it ain't their country.

> Are you bind to the reasons why Russia invaded Ukraine?

Nope, Putin did that to get a land bridge for the Crimea and
to grab Black Sea ports. Odessa is one of the best of them.

>>>>> Any sensible person can see the real opposition world power is China.
>>>> They have only invaded Tibet and a few uninhabited islands
>>>> in the South China Sea and got a very bloody nose when they
>>>> tried it with Vietnam.
>>>
>>> We are taking power.
>> China has no power.
>
> You're now looking stupid.

You have always done that.

>>> Normally this is economic power, war is mainly to promote an economic
>>> advantage.
>> That's bullshit too in modern times.

> It is very true.

Bullshit it is.

> War is often out of some hardship,

Have fun listing any of those by first world countries since WW2.

> there are articles on the US booming economy once they joined WW2.

That wasn't the REASON they joined WW2, stupid.

And they didn't initiate WW2 anyway,

On 27/04/2022 15:58, Steve Walker wrote:

>> During my lifetime, it is the Russians that have given up territory
>> and the West that has been expansionist. No doubt, Jock's alter ego in
>> Russia is complaining about NATO and saying something has to be done
>> to stop NATO expansion.
>
> The Russians have not given up territory. The Soviet Union broke up and
> the individual countries within it decided which way their future lay.
>

The Soviet Union was loosely speaking the Russian Empire. Moscow/Russia
allowed territories to succeed, in effect Moscow gave up territory it
had previously controlled.

>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war. Them's been the rules
>> throughout my lifetime.
>
> Ukraine surely has the right to decide its own future?
>

No. There are constraints on a nation's freedom, just as there are
constraints on individual freedom. The freedom of one nation may
threaten the freedom of another nation. There needs to be balance.

The constraint of not collaborating with a hostile enemy was outlined by
the USA in the Monroe Doctrine.

The USA is far more active than Russia in interfering with the freedoms
of other countries: Iran, Venezuela, Iraq, Libya, North Korea,
Yugoslavia, Cuba,... etc.

So this is an over simplistic double standard, trotted out for
propaganda purposes.

The rights, or wrongs, of Russia's interference with Ukraine are far
more nuanced.

>> The USA has used its economic strength to threaten Russia. Given
>> sanctions etc, Putin now clearly feels the upside of economic trade
>> with the West isn't worth giving up influence over Ukraine. Allowing
>> an enemy control of it's neighbour. Russia will use its nuclear
>> strength to defend itself.
>
> By invading, Russia has made Ukraine its enemy. No-one is invading
> Russia, so it has nothing to defend itself against.

It most certainly does have things to defend itself from, just as we
have things to defend ourselves from.

The USA had been aggressively promoting economic sanctions against
Russia, before the current events. The USA has used military force
against other countries, both directly and to enforce sanctions. It
seems entirely possible that Ukraine would be exploited by the West
economically and as a military base to harm and threaten Russia.

>
> Retaining nuclear
> weapons to deter or respond to an invasion is one thing, using them
> because someone "might" attack in the future is very different.
>

The USA, including Biden, refuse to rule out first strike.

>> So I can't see any upside to the UK getting involved, apart from
>> sucking up to the USA. The USA, of course, is happy to see Europe pay
>> the price of increased energy costs.
>
> So any country with sufficient weaponry is allowed to invade anyone it
> likes, without a response from the rest of the world?

No. Ukraine/Russia is a very special case. As I said, throughout my
lifetime, we have accepted Ukraine was in the Russian sphere of
influence. Only very recently has this idea been challenged. This
acceptance of boundaries, spheres of influence, worked, helped prevent a
Nuclear War. The danger of Nuclear War hasn't disappeared.

So we have to balance the upside of any interventions against the
downsides. Strategically, I see little benefit of encouraging Ukraine to
breakaway from Russian influence. I see great damage from moving back to
a Cold War, or worse, relationship with Russia.

On 28/04/2022 01:57, Jock wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:30:26 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +1000, Pancho
>>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the
>>>>>>>> vaccines. So
>>>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>>>>> analysis ( I
>>>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went
>>>>>>>> and read
>>>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>>>>>>>> felt
>>>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were
>>>>>>>> red flags
>>>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA
>>>>>>>> jab.
>>>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system.
>>>>>>>> To this
>>>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious
>>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that
>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as
>>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>>>>  No one cares about Yemen.
>>>>>  However we have seen what happens when European powers start
>>>>> flexing their muscles, It never ends well.
>>>>>  To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and
>>>>> politically more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And
>>>>> doesnt unite his population behind him.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>>>  That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those
>>> russian
>>> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
>>> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>>>
>>>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>>>  There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
>>> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
>>> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>>>
>>>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>>>  That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very comprehensively
>>> indeed.
>>
>> They fucked the country more than ISIS would ever have done.
>
> Bullshit.
>
>>>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>>>  Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to join
>>> the EU if they want to.
>>
>> Should may be the key word, but it was because Zelenskyy wanted
>> Ukraine join NATO that has caused this war.
>
> Nope, he only wanted to join the EU because it works a
> hell of a lot better than Russia does for the hangers on.
>
> And regardless, Putin gets no say on who can join NATO
> anyway and his invasion will likely see Finland join NATO now.

You're an idiot. A threat of an invasion, for most, would stop a country
joining NATO.

>> He's now back=pedalled but its too late.
>
> We'll see...

We've seen. Zelenskyy has already agreed to Ukraine staying outside of
NATO. It's amazing what an invasion does in terms of persuasion.

> There is no possibility that Putin will be able to grab the whole
> of the Ukraine. The most he might manage is the two eastern
> provinces of the Ukraine which have lots of russian immigrants.

He's going to grab the most influential parts and finish what he started
8 years ago.

>>>> Any sensible person can see the real opposition world power is China.
>>>  They have only invaded Tibet and a few uninhabited islands
>>> in the South China Sea and got a very bloody nose when they
>>> tried it with Vietnam.
>>
>> I think China and the weapons at its disposal have moved on since.
>
> You'd be wrong with what is used to invade a country.

A population 10x that of Russia can provide a large army.

>> A war generally lasts more than one month too.
>
> Yes, but Russia got kicked out of Afghanistan with
> its tail between its legs. The Ukraine and Afghanistan
> are actually very similar in size and population with
> the Ukraine FAR more technically sophisticated as
> we have seen when their anti ship missiles sank the
> Moskva, one of the best navy vessels the Russians
> used to have, the flagship of their Black Sea fleet.

On 28/04/2022 09:12, Pancho wrote:

> The Soviet Union was loosely speaking the Russian Empire. Moscow/Russia
> allowed territories to succeed, in effect Moscow gave up territory it
> had previously controlled.
>

Error:

succeed = secede

Fredxx wrote:

> A threat of an invasion, for most, would stop a country joining NATO.

Seeing what my neighbour is willing to do by invading another non-NATO country
would make me want to join ASAFP.

For some strange reason, Ukrainian public opinion on joining has flipped on its head

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Popular_opinion_in_Ukraine>

Yes it's always had an East/West split, and Putin shoving people in/out of the
East since 2014 will have exaggerated that.

On 10:47 27 Apr 2022, Martin Brown said:

> On 27/04/2022 08:12, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom
>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines.
>>> So as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>> analysis ( I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human
>>> Genetics) I went and read the summary Pfizer application to the
>>> FDA. And I quite literally felt the hairs rising on the back of my
>>> neck as I read. There were red flags all over the application. I
>>> have written up my own observations
>>>from the period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
>>> mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
>>> system. To this day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did
>>> this poison ever get approved and mandated for the entire planet?
>>> It was SO obvious it was poison and I know I am not so very
>>> brilliant and insightful that I am the only one who saw those
>>> danger signals."
>>>
>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>
>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as
>>> yet undecided....
>>
>> I thought the mRNA vaccine was the Oxford-Zenica one, and that the
>> Pfizer vaccine was more conventional. Have I got it the wrong way
>> round?
>
> Yes.
>
> Pfizer was first to market with an mRNA (but needing -80C cold chain)
> Moderna was next with an mRNA and conventional cold chain.
>
> AZ was modified monkey cold virus with spike protein code spliced in.
> (as was Russias Sputnik)
>
> Both of the above are new technologies for vaccine delivery.
>
> Sinovac is the only common mass produced Covid vaccine using
> classical methods. It was never as good as any of the novel ones and
> is worse now.
>
> Chinese vaccine is a damaged dead inactivated real virus (and also
> less effective). That is biting them in the backside right now. It is
> considerably less effective against Delta and Omicron variants.
>
> https://bfpg.co.uk/2022/01/vaccine-efficacy-china-smart-power/

The French Valneva vaccine uses the same approach as Sinovac and was
approved by the UK a few weeks ago. However when the EU requested more
data this week, the company's shares took a dive.

Seems authorities hope some vaccine sceptics will feel reassured by a
traditional vaccine.