On 18:16 27 Apr 2022, Fredxx said:
> On 27/04/2022 09:47, Pamela wrote:
>> On 09:14 27 Apr 2022, Chris Hogg said:
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 08:23:15 +0100, Andy Burns
>>> <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought the mRNA vaccine was the Oxford-Zenica one, and that
>>>>> the Pfizer vaccine was more conventional. Have I got it the wrong
>>>>> way round?
>>>>
>>>> Yep, the AZ uses DNA from a chimpanzee cold virus with the covid
>>>> spike protein grafted into it
>>>
>>> So, CD, why are you getting all worked up about the Pfizer vaccine?
>>
>> I was wondering that too. Surely this debate is over.
>>
>> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from
>> Covid. Two thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had the
>> vaccine and there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine itself.
>>
>> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
>>
>> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them
>> nowhere.
>
> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why
> not continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle
> to include religion and holy books?
>
> Do you believe in some mythical deity?

What's that got to do with the price of eggs?

On 27/04/2022 23:45, Paul wrote:
> On 4/27/2022 9:09 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article <642h6h1peu7spsqoci73f99e27oscc2la3@4ax.com>,
>>     Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis (
>>> I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>> read the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>>> felt the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>> flags all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>> from the period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
>>> mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
>>> system. To this day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this
>>> poison ever get approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO
>>> obvious it was poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and
>>> insightful that I am the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>
>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>
>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>> undecided....
>>
>> Doom by name and Doom by nature.
>>
>> Willing to bet the vast majority of the old farts on here are double
>> jabbed and boosted. Many a second booster.
>>
>> But nothing will change your odd view of things.
>>
>
> Here's the "letter".
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/smksja/dr_dave_cartland_uk_letter/
>
>
> Maybe it looks better with formatting or something.

It looks to me like a case for having him struck off the medical
register in the same way as the MMR vaccine conspiracy conman was.

It was the asymptomatic and presymptomatic transmission of Covid-19 that
made it so incredibly difficult to control. He is barking in the wind.

I quote from his delusional rant:

"I couldn’t believe my eyes. Respiratory viruses such as SARS-COV 19 are
spread not by asymptomatic carriers as previously covered. I may be
speculating here but I personally feel asymptomatic ‘carriers’ are
mislabelled false positives as previously discussed."

Two important points it wasn't "Previously discussed" he merely insists
that asymptomatic carriers do not exist despite all the evidence to the
contrary. It is asymptomatic (and pre-symptomatic) carriers that are
keeping the infection level in the UK so high right now!

As a doctor he should know that with almost all airborne viral
infections carriers are at their *MOST* infectious just before they show
any obvious signs of disease. He should be struck off this this shit!

The other nasty problem is that even the sensitive PCR test misses about
20% of actually infected and infective individuals in practice. This
makes screening out all infected individuals very difficult.

It has already been established that something like 30% of people with
Covid show no symptoms at all but are shedding lots of virus. The LF
test can pick these people up quite reliably (but like PCR misses 20% or
so). This garbage was all put to bed by the Liverpool mass screening.

The died with Covid vs died of Covid is also a red herring. Whilst there
were a few edge cases of hit by a bus inside the one month time limit
set for counting it as due to Covid looks to me to be reasonable. Actual
Covid infection increases the risk of clots and stroke for up to 6
months afterwards and a few very unlucky souls never seem to recover.

https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/study-finds-increased-risk-of-serious-blood-clots-up-to-six-months-after-covid-19/

I do have some sympathy for his argument that below a certain age which
I estimate to be about 12 it is very questionable whether vaccine risk
vs vaccine benefit is for the patient or for society as a whole.

IOW vaccinating otherwise fit young children is not justifiable by the
normal rules of medical ethics. Fixed risk from the vaccine of a bad
side effect vs an age related risk from the disease itself. Curiously
and this was known very early on toddlers are so riddled with other
human endemic coronaviruses that Covid-19 can barely touch them.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03496-7

Their less experienced immune system is better suited to dealing with
novel infectious diseases than are adults. Much of the damage Covid
causes comes from an excessive immune response and cytokine storm.

The odd individual can still be unlucky.
Kawasaki syndrome is about the nastiest of the Covid-19 induced
complications in children (it can happen with any viral infection).

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/198077/kawasaki-like-syndrome-linked-covid-19-children-condition/

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 28/04/2022 10:19, Pamela wrote:
> On 10:47 27 Apr 2022, Martin Brown said:
>
>> On 27/04/2022 08:12, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom
>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines.
>>>> So as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>> analysis ( I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human
>>>> Genetics) I went and read the summary Pfizer application to the
>>>> FDA. And I quite literally felt the hairs rising on the back of my
>>>> neck as I read. There were red flags all over the application. I
>>>> have written up my own observations
>>> >from the period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
>>>> mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
>>>> system. To this day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did
>>>> this poison ever get approved and mandated for the entire planet?
>>>> It was SO obvious it was poison and I know I am not so very
>>>> brilliant and insightful that I am the only one who saw those
>>>> danger signals."
>>>>
>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as
>>>> yet undecided....
>>>
>>> I thought the mRNA vaccine was the Oxford-Zenica one, and that the
>>> Pfizer vaccine was more conventional. Have I got it the wrong way
>>> round?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Pfizer was first to market with an mRNA (but needing -80C cold chain)
>> Moderna was next with an mRNA and conventional cold chain.
>>
>> AZ was modified monkey cold virus with spike protein code spliced in.
>> (as was Russias Sputnik)
>>
>> Both of the above are new technologies for vaccine delivery.
>>
>> Sinovac is the only common mass produced Covid vaccine using
>> classical methods. It was never as good as any of the novel ones and
>> is worse now.
>>
>> Chinese vaccine is a damaged dead inactivated real virus (and also
>> less effective). That is biting them in the backside right now. It is
>> considerably less effective against Delta and Omicron variants.
>>
>> https://bfpg.co.uk/2022/01/vaccine-efficacy-china-smart-power/
>
> The French Valneva vaccine uses the same approach as Sinovac and was
> approved by the UK a few weeks ago. However when the EU requested more
> data this week, the company's shares took a dive.
>
> Seems authorities hope some vaccine sceptics will feel reassured by a
> traditional vaccine.

If it gets a slightly higher proportion of the vulnerable population to
get vaccinated then it has to be worthwhile. My instinct is that most of
the first world is now down to the hardline refuseniks who will never
accept any kind of vaccine and prefer to burn down 5G masts instead.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:12:50 +1000, Pancho
<Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 27/04/2022 15:58, Steve Walker wrote:
>
>>> During my lifetime, it is the Russians that have given up territory
>>> and the West that has been expansionist. No doubt, Jock's alter ego in
>>> Russia is complaining about NATO and saying something has to be done
>>> to stop NATO expansion.
>> The Russians have not given up territory. The Soviet Union broke up
>> and the individual countries within it decided which way their future
>> lay.
>>
>
> The Soviet Union was loosely speaking the Russian Empire.

And imposed on the members whether they like it or not.

> Moscow/Russia allowed territories to succeed,

Bullshit they did with Hungary, Czechoslovakia,
Poland etc until Gorby showed up.

> in effect Moscow gave up territory it had previously controlled.

Bullshit they did with Hungary, Czechoslovakia,
Poland etc until Gorby showed up.

>>> Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, messing with that
>>> carries with it the threat of Nuclear war. Them's been the rules
>>> throughout my lifetime.

>> Ukraine surely has the right to decide its own future?

> No.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

> There are constraints on a nation's freedom, just as there are
> constraints on individual freedom.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

The UK was free to choose to leave the EU, stupid.

> The freedom of one nation may threaten the freedom of another nation.

Bullshit in the case of the Ukraine.

> There needs to be balance.

Bullshit.

> The constraint of not collaborating with a hostile enemy was outlined by
> the USA in the Monroe Doctrine.

And the world has moved on since then.

Even the USA left the Philippines when the Philippines told them to fuck
off.

So did the UK with Eire and with countless colonies.

> The USA is far more active than Russia in interfering with the freedoms
> of other countries: Iran, Venezuela, Iraq, Libya, North Korea,
> Yugoslavia, Cuba,... etc.

That is mindless bullshit too.

> So this is an over simplistic double standard, trotted out for
> propaganda purposes.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

> The rights, or wrongs, of Russia's interference with Ukraine are far
> more nuanced.

BULLSHIT.

>>> The USA has used its economic strength to threaten Russia. Given
>>> sanctions etc, Putin now clearly feels the upside of economic trade
>>> with the West isn't worth giving up influence over Ukraine. Allowing
>>> an enemy control of it's neighbour. Russia will use its nuclear
>>> strength to defend itself.

>> By invading, Russia has made Ukraine its enemy. No-one is invading
>> Russia, so it has nothing to defend itself against.

> It most certainly does have things to defend itself from,

Bullshit i5 does with the Ukraine.

> just as we have things to defend ourselves from.

Even more mindless bullshit.

> The USA had been aggressively promoting economic sanctions against
> Russia, before the current events.

Because of what it got up to.

> The USA has used military force against other countries, both directly
> and to enforce sanctions.

Corse russia has never ever done anything like that, eh ?

> It seems entirely possible that Ukraine would be exploited by the West
> economically and as a military base to harm and threaten Russia.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

>> Retaining nuclear weapons to deter or respond to an invasion is one
>> thing, using them because someone "might" attack in the future is very
>> different.

> The USA, including Biden, refuse to rule out first strike.

Corse russia has done that...

>>> So I can't see any upside to the UK getting involved, apart from
>>> sucking up to the USA. The USA, of course, is happy to see Europe pay
>>> the price of increased energy costs.

>> So any country with sufficient weaponry is allowed to invade anyone it
>> likes, without a response from the rest of the world?

> No. Ukraine/Russia is a very special case.

Bullshit it is.

> As I said, throughout my lifetime, we have accepted Ukraine was in the
> Russian sphere of influence.

Bullshit we did. Churchill never did with his Iron Curtain speach.

> Only very recently has this idea been challenged.

More mindless pig ignorant bullshit. Churchill did that right from the
start.

> This acceptance of boundaries, spheres of influence, worked,

Bullshit it did.

> helped prevent a Nuclear War.

Bullshit it did.

> The danger of Nuclear War hasn't disappeared.

Corse it has.

> So we have to balance the upside of any interventions against the
> downsides. Strategically, I see little benefit of encouraging Ukraine to
> breakaway from Russian influence.

It isnt up to you.

> I see great damage from moving back to a Cold War, or worse,
> relationship with Russia.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:33:18 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 28/04/2022 01:57, Jock wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:30:26 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +1000, Pancho
>>>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the
>>>>>>>>> vaccines. So
>>>>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>>>>>> analysis ( I
>>>>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went
>>>>>>>>> and read
>>>>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>>>>>>>>> felt
>>>>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were
>>>>>>>>> red flags
>>>>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an mRNA
>>>>>>>>> jab.
>>>>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the system.
>>>>>>>>> To this
>>>>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison ever
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious
>>>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful that
>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as
>>>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>>>>> No one cares about Yemen.
>>>>>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start
>>>>>> flexing their muscles, It never ends well.
>>>>>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and
>>>>>> politically more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And
>>>>>> doesnt unite his population behind him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>>>> That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those
>>>> russian
>>>> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
>>>> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>>>>
>>>>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>>>> There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
>>>> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
>>>> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>>>>
>>>>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>>>> That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very comprehensively
>>>> indeed.
>>>
>>> They fucked the country more than ISIS would ever have done.
>> Bullshit.
>>
>>>>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>>>> Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to join
>>>> the EU if they want to.
>>>
>>> Should may be the key word, but it was because Zelenskyy wanted
>>> Ukraine join NATO that has caused this war.
>> Nope, he only wanted to join the EU because it works a
>> hell of a lot better than Russia does for the hangers on.
>> And regardless, Putin gets no say on who can join NATO
>> anyway and his invasion will likely see Finland join NATO now.

> You're an idiot.

You are a fuckwit.

> A threat of an invasion, for most, would stop a country joining NATO.

The threat of invasion is seeing Finland consider joining
NATO, stupid and is the reason Latvia, Estonia, Denmark,
Poland, Austria, Hungary etc etc have all joined NATO.

>>> He's now back=pedalled but its too late.
>> We'll see...
>
> We've seen. Zelenskyy has already agreed to Ukraine staying outside of
> NATO.

Bullshit he has..

> It's amazing what an invasion does in terms of persuasion.

How odd that that didnt happen with Latvia, Estonia, Denmark,
Poland, Austria, Hungary etc etc.

>> There is no possibility that Putin will be able to grab the whole
>> of the Ukraine. The most he might manage is the two eastern
>> provinces of the Ukraine which have lots of russian immigrants.
>
> He's going to grab the most influential parts

More of your utterly mindless pig ignorant bullshit. Kyiv is that, stupid.

> and finish what he started 8 years ago.

We'll see...

>>>>> Any sensible person can see the real opposition world power is China.
>>>> They have only invaded Tibet and a few uninhabited islands
>>>> in the South China Sea and got a very bloody nose when they
>>>> tried it with Vietnam.
>>>
>>> I think China and the weapons at its disposal have moved on since.

>> You'd be wrong with what is used to invade a country.

> A population 10x that of Russia can provide a large army.

Didn't work with Korea, stupid.

>>> A war generally lasts more than one month too.
>> Yes, but Russia got kicked out of Afghanistan with
>> its tail between its legs. The Ukraine and Afghanistan
>> are actually very similar in size and population with
>> the Ukraine FAR more technically sophisticated as
>> we have seen when their anti ship missiles sank the
>> Moskva, one of the best navy vessels the Russians
>> used to have, the flagship of their Black Sea fleet.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:13:33 +1000, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Fredxx wrote:
>
>> A threat of an invasion, for most, would stop a country joining NATO.
>
> Seeing what my neighbour is willing to do by invading another non-NATO
> country would make me want to join ASAFP.

And that is precisely what Finland is now considering.

> For some strange reason, Ukrainian public opinion on joining has flipped
> on its head
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Popular_opinion_in_Ukraine>
>
> Yes it's always had an East/West split, and Putin shoving people in/out
> of the East since 2014 will have exaggerated that.

On 28/04/2022 10:40, Pamela wrote:
> On 18:16 27 Apr 2022, Fredxx said:
>> On 27/04/2022 09:47, Pamela wrote:
>>> On 09:14 27 Apr 2022, Chris Hogg said:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 08:23:15 +0100, Andy Burns
>>>> <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought the mRNA vaccine was the Oxford-Zenica one, and that
>>>>>> the Pfizer vaccine was more conventional. Have I got it the wrong
>>>>>> way round?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, the AZ uses DNA from a chimpanzee cold virus with the covid
>>>>> spike protein grafted into it
>>>>
>>>> So, CD, why are you getting all worked up about the Pfizer vaccine?
>>>
>>> I was wondering that too. Surely this debate is over.
>>>
>>> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from
>>> Covid. Two thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had the
>>> vaccine and there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine itself.
>>>
>>> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
>>>
>>> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them
>>> nowhere.
>>
>> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why
>> not continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle
>> to include religion and holy books?
>>
>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
>
> What's that got to do with the price of eggs?

It's an unscientific belief system similar to anti-vaxxers. It is
similar in that each belief system rubbishes every other belief system.

On 28/04/2022 11:28, Jock wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:33:18 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 28/04/2022 01:57, Jock wrote:
>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:30:26 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +1000, Pancho
>>>>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the
>>>>>>>>>> vaccines. So
>>>>>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>>>>>>> analysis ( I
>>>>>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went
>>>>>>>>>> and read
>>>>>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite
>>>>>>>>>> literally felt
>>>>>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were
>>>>>>>>>> red flags
>>>>>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own
>>>>>>>>>> observations from the
>>>>>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
>>>>>>>>>> mRNA jab.
>>>>>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
>>>>>>>>>> system. To this
>>>>>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison
>>>>>>>>>> ever get
>>>>>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious
>>>>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful
>>>>>>>>>> that I am
>>>>>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still
>>>>>>>>>> as yet
>>>>>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>>>>>>  No one cares about Yemen.
>>>>>>>  However we have seen what happens when European powers start
>>>>>>> flexing their muscles, It never ends well.
>>>>>>>  To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and
>>>>>>> politically more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And
>>>>>>> doesnt unite his population behind him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>>>>>  That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those
>>>>> russian
>>>>> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
>>>>> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>>>>>  There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
>>>>> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
>>>>> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>>>>>
>>>>>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>>>>>  That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very
>>>>> comprehensively indeed.
>>>>
>>>> They fucked the country more than ISIS would ever have done.
>>>  Bullshit.
>>>
>>>>>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>>>>>  Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to
>>>>> join the EU if they want to.
>>>>
>>>> Should may be the key word, but it was because Zelenskyy wanted
>>>> Ukraine join NATO that has caused this war.
>>>  Nope, he only wanted to join the EU because it works a
>>> hell of a lot better than Russia does for the hangers on.
>>>  And regardless, Putin gets no say on who can join NATO
>>> anyway and his invasion will likely see Finland join NATO now.
>
>> You're an idiot.
>
> You are a fuckwit.

You are an out of touch idiot to think Zelenskyy hasn't agreed to
Ukraine staying outside of NATO.

>> A threat of an invasion, for most, would stop a country joining NATO.
>
> The threat of invasion is seeing Finland consider joining
> NATO, stupid and is the reason Latvia, Estonia, Denmark,
> Poland, Austria, Hungary etc etc have all joined NATO.

Considering, yes. Watch this space. One of the reasons/excuses why some
countries still trade with Russia is from the belief by some that NATO
expanded too far too quickly. NATO having been seen as an arm of the USA.

>>>> He's now back=pedalled but its too late.
>>>  We'll see...
>>
>> We've seen. Zelenskyy has already agreed to Ukraine staying outside of
>> NATO.
>
> Bullshit he has..

You are so incredibly out of touch and blinkered:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/kyiv-facing-dangerous-moment-amid-signs-of-russias-tightening-grip

It's amazing what a few shells do for persuasion.

The only bull is from you, as I have said you are so out of touch with
the world, being many thousands of miles away from those who do; both
metaphorically and literally.

In article <t4bton$rgq$1@dont-email.me>,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
> > Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from Covid. Two
> > thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had the vaccine and
> > there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine itself.
> >
> > It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
> >
> > Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them nowhere.

> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why not
> continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle to
> include religion and holy books?

> Do you believe in some mythical deity?

Is Pamela trying to force her views on others here, like Doom does? No? So
what religion she chooses to believe in or not is her business.

--
*Rehab is for quitters.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/04/2022 09:50, Pancho wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 09:12, Pancho wrote:
>
>> The Soviet Union was loosely speaking the Russian Empire.
>> Moscow/Russia allowed territories to succeed, in effect Moscow gave up
>> territory it had previously controlled.
>>
>
> Error:
>
> succeed = secede

When you are notionally an independent democratic country that is simply
'firecely loyal' to communism and Russia, secession isn't the correct word.
E.g. Britain has not 'seceded' from the EU.

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

On 28/04/2022 10:13, Andy Burns wrote:
> Fredxx wrote:
>
>> A threat of an invasion, for most, would stop a country joining NATO.
>
> Seeing what my neighbour is willing to do by invading another non-NATO
> country would make me want to join ASAFP.
>
> For some strange reason, Ukrainian public opinion on joining has flipped
> on its head
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Popular_opinion_in_Ukraine>
>
>
> Yes it's always had an East/West split, and Putin shoving people in/out
> of the East since 2014 will have exaggerated that.
>
Well there wont be anyone left in Donbas at this rate. He's killed them all.

--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

On 28/04/2022 13:51, Fredxx wrote:
> You are so incredibly out of touch and blinkered:
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/kyiv-facing-dangerous-moment-amid-signs-of-russias-tightening-grip
>
>
> It's amazing what a few shells do for persuasion.
>
> The only bull is from you, as I have said you are so out of touch with
> the world, being many thousands of miles away from those who do; both
> metaphorically and literally.

You are so incredibly out of touch and blinkered:

First of all what Zalensky says is what he needs to say in a war
situation, and secondly what the guardian says is whatever it's KGB
sympathetic staff decide to say.

Nowhere in this is truth, or the wishes of the Ukrainian people, or
anyone's real intentions available.

--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

In article <t4e18g$lm$1@dont-email.me>,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
> >> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why
> >> not continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle
> >> to include religion and holy books?
> >>
> >> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
> >
> > What's that got to do with the price of eggs?

> It's an unscientific belief system similar to anti-vaxxers. It is
> similar in that each belief system rubbishes every other belief system.

Religions of one sort or another have been around from primitive times.
Refined over many many years. To many now simply a tradition - like our
Royal family or wearing strange clothes in the law.

To classify being anti-vax in the same breath shows a remarkable lack of
judgment.

--
*OK, so what's the speed of dark? *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/04/2022 13:28, Fredxx wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 10:40, Pamela wrote:
>> On 18:16  27 Apr 2022, Fredxx said:
>>> On 27/04/2022 09:47, Pamela wrote:

>>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
>>
>> What's that got to do with the price of eggs?
>
> It's an unscientific belief system similar to anti-vaxxers. It is
> similar in that each belief system rubbishes every other belief system.
>
>
CF 'climate change' and 'climate deniers' etc.

--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

On 28/04/2022 15:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 09:50, Pancho wrote:
>> On 28/04/2022 09:12, Pancho wrote:
>>
>>> The Soviet Union was loosely speaking the Russian Empire.
>>> Moscow/Russia allowed territories to succeed, in effect Moscow gave
>>> up territory it had previously controlled.
>>>
>>
>> Error:
>>
>> succeed = secede
>
> When you are notionally an independent democratic country that is simply
> 'firecely loyal' to communism and Russia, secession isn't the correct word.
> E.g. Britain has not 'seceded' from the EU.
>

Ok, I don't understand your point. The USSR was a federal union of
republics. I wouldn't call them independent democratic countries.

Maybe you mean the collapse of the Warsaw pact? They were "independent"
"democratic" countries, but still controlled by the Kremlin. In that
case, maybe there is a better word, but either way "secede" is a lot
closer to what I meant than "succeed".

On 28/04/2022 16:31, Pancho wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 15:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 28/04/2022 09:50, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 28/04/2022 09:12, Pancho wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Soviet Union was loosely speaking the Russian Empire.
>>>> Moscow/Russia allowed territories to succeed, in effect Moscow gave
>>>> up territory it had previously controlled.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Error:
>>>
>>> succeed = secede
>>
>> When you are notionally an independent democratic country that is
>> simply 'firecely loyal' to communism and Russia, secession isn't the
>> correct word.
>> E.g. Britain has not 'seceded' from the EU.
>>
>
> Ok, I don't understand your point. The USSR was a federal union of
> republics. I wouldn't call them independent democratic countries.
>
> Maybe you mean the collapse of the Warsaw pact? They were "independent"
> "democratic" countries, but still controlled by the Kremlin. In that
> case, maybe there is a better word, but either way "secede" is a lot
> closer to what I meant than "succeed".
You miss my point. Soviet propganda was always that the countries were
free democratic and independent and tanks were only sent in to quell
'dissidents'

Ergo no 'secession' was possible. It might of been de facto secession,
but de jure it was not.

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 14:12:04 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <7x0lsSM7VQaiFwHU@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>,
> Tim Lamb <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <642h6h1peu7spsqoci73f99e27oscc2la3@4ax.com>, Cursitor Doom
>> <cd@notformail.com> writes
>>>"I was confused by some of the government stuff about the vaccines. So
>>>as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical analysis (
>>>I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went and
>>>read the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite literally
>>>felt the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were red
>>>flags all over the application. I have written up my own observations
>>>from the period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
>>>mRNA jab. Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
>>>system. To this day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this
>>>poison ever get approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO
>>>obvious it was poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and
>>>insightful that I am the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>
>>>https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>
>>>Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still as yet
>>>undecided....
>
>> Just had my booster. So that is 4 lots of evidence that there is
>> something amiss with your hypothesis and sources.
>
> I've had my second booster. ;-)

Going for mine tomorrow morning - then foe a couple of pints:-)
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote
> On 28/04/2022 10:40, Pamela wrote:
>> On 18:16 27 Apr 2022, Fredxx said:
>>> On 27/04/2022 09:47, Pamela wrote:
>>>> On 09:14 27 Apr 2022, Chris Hogg said:
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 08:23:15 +0100, Andy Burns
>>>>> <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought the mRNA vaccine was the Oxford-Zenica one, and that
>>>>>>> the Pfizer vaccine was more conventional. Have I got it the wrong
>>>>>>> way round?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yep, the AZ uses DNA from a chimpanzee cold virus with the covid
>>>>>> spike protein grafted into it
>>>>>
>>>>> So, CD, why are you getting all worked up about the Pfizer vaccine?
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering that too. Surely this debate is over.
>>>>
>>>> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from
>>>> Covid. Two thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had the
>>>> vaccine and there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine itself.
>>>>
>>>> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
>>>>
>>>> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them
>>>> nowhere.
>>>
>>> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why
>>> not continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle
>>> to include religion and holy books?
>>>
>>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
>> What's that got to do with the price of eggs?
>
> It's an unscientific belief system similar to anti-vaxxers.

> It is similar in that each belief system rubbishes every other belief
> system.

Plenty of the religious don't do that anymore.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 22:51:16 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 28/04/2022 11:28, Jock wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:33:18 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/04/2022 01:57, Jock wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:30:26 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/04/2022 12:33, Jock wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +1000, Pancho
>>>>>> <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 10:05, Pancho wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 08:34, jon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 01:08:40 +0100, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "I was confused by some of the government stuff about the
>>>>>>>>>>> vaccines. So
>>>>>>>>>>> as a scientist trained in medical research and statistical
>>>>>>>>>>> analysis ( I
>>>>>>>>>>> have a BSc in Biochemistry and a PhD in Human Genetics) I went
>>>>>>>>>>> and read
>>>>>>>>>>> the summary Pfizer application to the FDA. And I quite
>>>>>>>>>>> literally felt
>>>>>>>>>>> the hairs rising on the back of my neck as I read. There were
>>>>>>>>>>> red flags
>>>>>>>>>>> all over the application. I have written up my own
>>>>>>>>>>> observations from the
>>>>>>>>>>> period when I decided, no matter what, I was not getting an
>>>>>>>>>>> mRNA jab.
>>>>>>>>>>> Being retired it was relatively easy to duck out of the
>>>>>>>>>>> system. To this
>>>>>>>>>>> day I shake my head in wonder. How the hell did this poison
>>>>>>>>>>> ever get
>>>>>>>>>>> approved and mandated for the entire planet? It was SO obvious
>>>>>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>>>>>> poison and I know I am not so very brilliant and insightful
>>>>>>>>>>> that I am
>>>>>>>>>>> the only one who saw those danger signals."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://metatron.substack.com/p/breaking-the-silence?s=r
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully it won't be too late for those few fortunates still
>>>>>>>>>>> as yet
>>>>>>>>>>> undecided....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Our imminent nuclear war makes all this obsolete.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good point! I'm pissed off enough about the gas price increase.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why do we care about Ukraine? We don't care about Yemen?
>>>>>>>> No one cares about Yemen.
>>>>>>>> However we have seen what happens when European powers start
>>>>>>>> flexing their muscles, It never ends well.
>>>>>>>> To date throwing weapons at Ukraine is a lot cheaper and
>>>>>>>> politically more acceptable than taking on Putin head on. And
>>>>>>>> doesnt unite his population behind him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why do we care about uniting Putin's population behind him?
>>>>>> That isn't happening, particularly with the spouses of all those
>>>>>> russian
>>>>>> troops who are now dead. The russians have in fact lost more in just
>>>>>> 6 weeks than it lost in Afghanistan in a whole decade.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The USA care, because Putin meddled with their hegemony.
>>>>>> There has been no USA hegemony. Various eastern european
>>>>>> countries that used to be under the russian jackboot have chosen
>>>>>> to leave the USSR after it imploded spectacularly and joined the EU.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He got in the USA's way in Syria.
>>>>>> That's bullshit too. They both fucked over ISIS very
>>>>>> comprehensively indeed.
>>>>>
>>>>> They fucked the country more than ISIS would ever have done.
>>>> Bullshit.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Any sensible person can see Ukraine isn't strategically important.
>>>>>> Any sensible person can see that the Ukraine should be free to
>>>>>> join the EU if they want to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Should may be the key word, but it was because Zelenskyy wanted
>>>>> Ukraine join NATO that has caused this war.
>>>> Nope, he only wanted to join the EU because it works a
>>>> hell of a lot better than Russia does for the hangers on.
>>>> And regardless, Putin gets no say on who can join NATO
>>>> anyway and his invasion will likely see Finland join NATO now.
>>
>>> You're an idiot.
>> You are a fuckwit.

> You are an out of touch idiot to think Zelenskyy hasn't agreed to
> Ukraine staying outside of NATO.

Bullshit he has.

>>> A threat of an invasion, for most, would stop a country joining NATO.
>> The threat of invasion is seeing Finland consider joining
>> NATO, stupid and is the reason Latvia, Estonia, Denmark,
>> Poland, Austria, Hungary etc etc have all joined NATO.
>
> Considering, yes. Watch this space.

Both Sweden and Finland now have a majority in favor of joining now.

> One of the reasons/excuses why some countries still trade with Russia is
> from the belief by some that NATO expanded too far too quickly.

More bullshit, they do that because they need the gas, stupid.

> NATO having been seen as an arm of the USA.

Only by fools. That isn't the reason Sweden and Finland
hadn't previously joined.

>>>>> He's now back=pedalled but its too late.
>>>> We'll see...
>>>
>>> We've seen. Zelenskyy has already agreed to Ukraine staying outside of
>>> NATO.
>> Bullshit he has..

> You are so incredibly out of touch and blinkered:

We'll see...

> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/kyiv-facing-dangerous-moment-amid-signs-of-russias-tightening-grip

Just because that shit rag claims something...

<reams of your shit any 3 year old could leave for dead flushed where it
belongs>

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 00:56:59 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 28/04/2022 10:13, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Fredxx wrote:
>>
>>> A threat of an invasion, for most, would stop a country joining NATO.
>> Seeing what my neighbour is willing to do by invading another non-NATO
>> country would make me want to join ASAFP.
>> For some strange reason, Ukrainian public opinion on joining has
>> flipped on its head
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Popular_opinion_in_Ukraine>
>> Yes it's always had an East/West split, and Putin shoving people
>> in/out of the East since 2014 will have exaggerated that.
>>
> Well there wont be anyone left in Donbas at this rate. He's killed them
> all.

He won't be killing the ex russian military immigrants.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 00:55:27 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 28/04/2022 09:50, Pancho wrote:
>> On 28/04/2022 09:12, Pancho wrote:
>>
>>> The Soviet Union was loosely speaking the Russian Empire.
>>> Moscow/Russia allowed territories to succeed, in effect Moscow gave up
>>> territory it had previously controlled.
>>>
>> Error:
>> succeed = secede
>
> When you are notionally an independent democratic country that is simply
> 'firecely loyal' to communism and Russia,

None of the countries that chose to declare independance when the USSR
imploded were that.

> secession isn't the correct word.
> E.g. Britain has not 'seceded' from the EU.

On 28/04/2022 16:00, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <t4e18g$lm$1@dont-email.me>,
> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>>> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why
>>>> not continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle
>>>> to include religion and holy books?
>>>>
>>>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
>>>
>>> What's that got to do with the price of eggs?
>
>> It's an unscientific belief system similar to anti-vaxxers. It is
>> similar in that each belief system rubbishes every other belief system.
>
> Religions of one sort or another have been around from primitive times.
> Refined over many many years. To many now simply a tradition - like our
> Royal family or wearing strange clothes in the law.
>
> To classify being anti-vax in the same breath shows a remarkable lack of
> judgment.

Quite, some of the anti-vaxxers beliefs are made on facts or pseudo
facts. That can hardly be said about religion which are based on blind
belief and a selfish wish to live forever.

Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
fellow man, you're forgiven.

On 28/04/2022 15:51, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <t4bton$rgq$1@dont-email.me>,
> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from Covid. Two
>>> thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had the vaccine and
>>> there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine itself.
>>>
>>> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
>>>
>>> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them nowhere.
>
>> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why not
>> continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle to
>> include religion and holy books?
>
>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
>
> Is Pamela trying to force her views on others here, like Doom does? No? So
> what religion she chooses to believe in or not is her business.

Then both you and Pamela should respect other people's beliefs, rather
than inflate yours as being all important.

On 21:17 28 Apr 2022, Fredxx said:
> On 28/04/2022 15:51, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article <t4bton$rgq$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>>> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from
>>>> Covid. Two thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had
>>>> the vaccine and there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine
>>>> itself.
>>>>
>>>> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
>>>>
>>>> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them
>>>> nowhere.
>>
>>> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why
>>> not continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched
>>> twaddle to include religion and holy books?
>>
>>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
>>
>> Is Pamela trying to force her views on others here, like Doom does?
>> No? So what religion she chooses to believe in or not is her
>> business.
>
> Then both you and Pamela should respect other people's beliefs,
> rather than inflate yours as being all important.

Please don't tell me you're an anti-vaxxer. It must be very frustrating
for anti-vaxxers to see millions (actually billions worldwide) of jabbed
people come to no harm.

It shows how "doing your own research" is best left to qualified people
when it comes to something important.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:16:36 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 28/04/2022 16:00, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article <t4e18g$lm$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>>>> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why
>>>>> not continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle
>>>>> to include religion and holy books?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
>>>>
>>>> What's that got to do with the price of eggs?
>>
>>> It's an unscientific belief system similar to anti-vaxxers. It is
>>> similar in that each belief system rubbishes every other belief system.
>> Religions of one sort or another have been around from primitive times.
>> Refined over many many years. To many now simply a tradition - like our
>> Royal family or wearing strange clothes in the law.
>> To classify being anti-vax in the same breath shows a remarkable lack
>> of
>> judgment.

> Quite, some of the anti-vaxxers beliefs are made on facts or pseudo
> facts.

> That can hardly be said about religion which are based on blind belief
> and a selfish wish to live forever.

Much more a crutch for pathetically inadequate minds imo.

> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
> fellow man, you're forgiven.

Not sure that is true, tho it is less clear what roman catholic child
molesters 'think' in that regard. Hard to believe that they really
believe that all they have to do is confess their child molesting
before they die to still get into heaven, but presumably they do.