On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:17:43 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 28/04/2022 15:51, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article <t4bton$rgq$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>>> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from
>>>> Covid. Two
>>>> thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had the vaccine and
>>>> there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine itself.
>>>>
>>>> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
>>>>
>>>> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them nowhere.
>>
>>> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why not
>>> continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle to
>>> include religion and holy books?
>>
>>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
>> Is Pamela trying to force her views on others here, like Doom does?
>> No? So
>> what religion she chooses to believe in or not is her business.
>
> Then both you and Pamela should respect other people's beliefs,

Quite a few of the religious do now.

> rather than inflate yours as being all important.

Most of the religious don't anymore. It is interesting with
the Joveys how many of them have tried other religions.

On 28/04/2022 16:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 13:51, Fredxx wrote:
>> You are so incredibly out of touch and blinkered:
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/kyiv-facing-dangerous-moment-amid-signs-of-russias-tightening-grip
>>
>>
>> It's amazing what a few shells do for persuasion.
>>
>> The only bull is from you, as I have said you are so out of touch with
>> the world, being many thousands of miles away from those who do; both
>> metaphorically and literally.
>
> You are so incredibly out of touch and blinkered:
>
> First of all what Zalensky says is what he needs to say in a war
> situation, and secondly what the guardian says is whatever it's KGB
> sympathetic staff decide to say.

Is that an admission that Zalensky said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO?

Who's the one who is blinkered and now admitting my post was true where
I said, "He's now back-pedalled but its too late" and blinkered out of
touch Slowcoach said that was BS.

> Nowhere in this is truth, or the wishes of the Ukrainian people, or
> anyone's real intentions available.

Of course, you would only believe the Daily Mail version, or is this run
by a load of fascist hypocrites such you would choose to ignore this
article too?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10614963/Kyiv-braces-36-hours-hell-Mayor-Vitali-Klitschko-warns-civilians-prepare-bombardment.html

You are so incredibly blinkered and narrow minded.

On 28/04/2022 22:36, Pamela wrote:
> On 21:17 28 Apr 2022, Fredxx said:
>> On 28/04/2022 15:51, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> In article <t4bton$rgq$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from
>>>>> Covid. Two thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had
>>>>> the vaccine and there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine
>>>>> itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them
>>>>> nowhere.
>>>
>>>> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why
>>>> not continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched
>>>> twaddle to include religion and holy books?
>>>
>>>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
>>>
>>> Is Pamela trying to force her views on others here, like Doom does?
>>> No? So what religion she chooses to believe in or not is her
>>> business.
>>
>> Then both you and Pamela should respect other people's beliefs,
>> rather than inflate yours as being all important.
>
> Please don't tell me you're an anti-vaxxer. It must be very frustrating
> for anti-vaxxers to see millions (actually billions worldwide) of jabbed
> people come to no harm.

No I'm not, but I'm taught to respect personal beliefs.

> It shows how "doing your own research" is best left to qualified people
> when it comes to something important.

Like the local vicar? I don't see your point?

Fredxx wrote:

> Is that an admission that Zalensky said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO?

I think that was said a few weeks ago as an attempt to get a ceasefire out of Putin.

If Finland and Sweden join, it'll go back on Ukraine's wishlist ...

On 28/04/2022 21:16, Fredxx wrote:
> Quite, some of the anti-vaxxers beliefs are made on facts or pseudo
> facts. That can hardly be said about religion which are based on blind
> belief and a selfish wish to live forever.
>
> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
> fellow man, you're forgiven.
>
It is unusual to finjd someone so ignorant about everything as you.
I almost admire it

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

On 28/04/2022 23:54, Fredxx wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 16:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 28/04/2022 13:51, Fredxx wrote:
>>> You are so incredibly out of touch and blinkered:
>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/kyiv-facing-dangerous-moment-amid-signs-of-russias-tightening-grip
>>>
>>>
>>> It's amazing what a few shells do for persuasion.
>>>
>>> The only bull is from you, as I have said you are so out of touch
>>> with the world, being many thousands of miles away from those who do;
>>> both metaphorically and literally.
>>
>> You are so incredibly out of touch and blinkered:
>>
>> First of all what Zalensky says is what he needs to say in a war
>> situation, and secondly what the guardian says is whatever it's KGB
>> sympathetic staff decide to say.
>
> Is that an admission that Zalensky said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO?
>
No, its a suggestion that whatever he says is not meaningful seen
outside the context of someone trying to save his country from a bunch
of criminal thugs

> Who's the one who is blinkered and now admitting my post was true where
> I said, "He's now back-pedalled but its too late" and blinkered out of
> touch Slowcoach said that was BS.
>
>> Nowhere in this is truth, or the wishes of the Ukrainian people, or
>> anyone's real intentions available.
>
> Of course, you would only believe the Daily Mail version, or is this run
> by a load of fascist hypocrites such you would choose to ignore this
> article too?
>

First of all I never read the daily mail, and secondly I am not naive
enough to believe what the papers say, unlike you.

> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10614963/Kyiv-braces-36-hours-hell-Mayor-Vitali-Klitschko-warns-civilians-prepare-bombardment.html
>
>
> You are so incredibly blinkered and narrow minded.

You are so incredibly blinkered and narrow minded.
--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

On 29/04/2022 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 21:16, Fredxx wrote:
>> Quite, some of the anti-vaxxers beliefs are made on facts or pseudo
>> facts. That can hardly be said about religion which are based on blind
>> belief and a selfish wish to live forever.
>>
>> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
>> fellow man, you're forgiven.
>>
> It is unusual to finjd someone so ignorant about everything as you.
> I almost admire it

For someone who is in denial that Zelensky had agreed to stay out of
NATO, it is not me who is ignorant.

If you're the type to have unjustified beliefs in being a climate
denier, then I can understand why you would believe in some mythical deity.

On 29/04/2022 02:25, Andy Burns wrote:
> Fredxx wrote:
>
>> Is that an admission that Zalensky said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO?
>
> I think that was said a few weeks ago as an attempt to get a ceasefire
> out of Putin.

It was - here is a contemporaneous report in the French press:

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220308-in-nod-to-russia-ukraine-says-no-longer-insisting-on-nato-membership
>
> If Finland and Sweden join, it'll go back on Ukraine's wishlist ...

I think it always was on their wish list but with Crimea already
occupied there is no way that NATO would want them as members.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> If Finland and Sweden join, it'll go back on Ukraine's wishlist ...
>
> I think it always was on their wish list but with Crimea already occupied there
> is no way that NATO would want them as members.

Hence Truss saying Russia needs to be driven out of *all* of Ukraine?

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 19:08:09 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 29/04/2022 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 28/04/2022 21:16, Fredxx wrote:
>>> Quite, some of the anti-vaxxers beliefs are made on facts or pseudo
>>> facts. That can hardly be said about religion which are based on blind
>>> belief and a selfish wish to live forever.
>>>
>>> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
>>> fellow man, you're forgiven.
>>>
>> It is unusual to finjd someone so ignorant about everything as you.
>> I almost admire it
>
> For someone who is in denial that Zelensky had agreed to stay out of
> NATO,

He never AGREED, at most he might have ANNOUNCED
and it remains to be seen what he will do about that once
the Ukraine joins the EU, as it certainly will do.

<reams of your even sillier shit flushed where it belongs>

On 29/04/2022 10:21, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> If Finland and Sweden join, it'll go back on Ukraine's wishlist ...
>>
>> I think it always was on their wish list but with Crimea already
>> occupied there is no way that NATO would want them as members.
>
> Hence Truss saying Russia needs to be driven out of *all* of Ukraine?

Perhaps. But she is just shooting her mouth off in this instance.

It would be an ideal outcome for the West but some sort of compromise
between Russian and Ukraine would seem inevitable to end hostilities
since otherwise we could end up in a Third World War. Putin so hates
losing that he might well press the big red nuclear button to avoid it.

Apparently senior US military commanders had considered this as a
possible scenario when Trump was thrown out of the White House.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-milley-nuclear-weapons-woodward-b1920046.html

We have to hope that the Russian military have similar safeguards.

Problem is that they view tactical nuclear weapons as a bigger bang.
(and have previously used chemical/radioactive weapons on UK soil)

Basically they are a very heavily nuclear armed rogue state now.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 28/04/2022 23:31, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:16:36 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

>> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
>> fellow man, you're forgiven.

There's just one sin ("The sin against the Holy Ghost") that can't be
forgiven: unfortunately no-one knows what it is. It could be something
that you do every day, so you are unforgivably damned, so might as well
sin while you have the chance. All other sins may be forgiven, but
Christian dogma varies as to how this happens.

> Not sure that is true, tho it is less clear what roman catholic child
> molesters 'think' in that regard. Hard to believe that they really
> believe that all they have to do is confess their child molesting
> before they die to still get into heaven, but presumably they do.

There's nothing in the Bible forbidding "child molesting", however such
term is defined.

--
Max Demian

On 27/04/2022 13:59, Pancho wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 13:25, Jock wrote:
>
>>> Those were relatively safe strategies, from Putin's viewpoint.
>>
>> So is grabbing the two eastern provinces of the Ukraine,
>> particularly for a psychopath like Putin who couldn't care
>> less about how many russian troops end up dead, or how
>> many of what he considers his enemies he gets murdered.
>>
>
> Putin cares, because it affects his support, his ability to remain in
> power.
>
> If things get bad, Putin's powerful backers or the Russian population
> may turn against him and remove him from power. I think the probability
> of that happening has significantly increased.
>

The majority of Russians still support him (in the absence of any
reliable facts on state-controlled media). Even when given the facts
an alarming percentage of Russians still don't believe 'The West'.

On 28/04/2022 16:31, Pancho wrote:

> Ok, I don't understand your point. The USSR was a federal union of
> republics. I wouldn't call them independent democratic countries.
>

That's because they were brain-washed by state-controlled media,
and any refuseniks were simply 'disappeared' by state-controlled
police, and if that failed, the soviets sent in the tanks.

On Friday, 29 April 2022 at 14:17:08 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 13:59, Pancho wrote:
> > On 27/04/2022 13:25, Jock wrote:
> >
> >>> Those were relatively safe strategies, from Putin's viewpoint.
> >>
> >> So is grabbing the two eastern provinces of the Ukraine,
> >> particularly for a psychopath like Putin who couldn't care
> >> less about how many russian troops end up dead, or how
> >> many of what he considers his enemies he gets murdered.
> >>
> >
> > Putin cares, because it affects his support, his ability to remain in
> > power.
> >
> > If things get bad, Putin's powerful backers or the Russian population
> > may turn against him and remove him from power. I think the probability
> > of that happening has significantly increased.
> >
>
> The majority of Russians still support him (in the absence of any
> reliable facts on state-controlled media).

I'm not sure how you can be so sure of that.
Few would come out on the TV and say they don't support him.

>Even when given the facts
> an alarming percentage of Russians still don't believe 'The West'.

On 29/04/2022 11:07, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 10:21, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Finland and Sweden join, it'll go back on Ukraine's wishlist ...
>>>
>>> I think it always was on their wish list but with Crimea already
>>> occupied there is no way that NATO would want them as members.
>>
>> Hence Truss saying Russia needs to be driven out of *all* of Ukraine?
>
> Perhaps. But she is just shooting her mouth off in this instance.
>
> It would be an ideal outcome for the West.

In what way ideal? How do we in the UK benefit?

On 29/04/2022 10:08, Fredxx wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 28/04/2022 21:16, Fredxx wrote:
>>> Quite, some of the anti-vaxxers beliefs are made on facts or pseudo
>>> facts. That can hardly be said about religion which are based on
>>> blind belief and a selfish wish to live forever.
>>>
>>> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
>>> fellow man, you're forgiven.
>>>
>> It is unusual to finjd someone so ignorant about everything as you.
>> I almost admire it
>
> For someone who is in denial that Zelensky had agreed to stay out of
> NATO, it is not me who is ignorant.

Try NOT lying.
>
> If you're the type to have unjustified beliefs in being a climate
> denier, then I can understand why you would believe in some mythical deity.
>

If you're the type to have unjustified beliefs in being a climate
denier, then I can understand why you would believe in some mythical deity.

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote
> Andy Burns wrote
>> Fredxx wrote

>>> Is that an admission that Zalensky said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO?

>> I think that was said a few weeks ago as an attempt to get a ceasefire
>> out of Putin.

> It was - here is a contemporaneous report in the French press:

> https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220308-in-nod-to-russia-ukraine-says-no-longer-insisting-on-nato-membership

>> If Finland and Sweden join, it'll go back on Ukraine's wishlist ...

> I think it always was on their wish list but with Crimea already
> occupied there is no way that NATO would want them as members.

We'll see...

In article <t4esn4$ugg$1@dont-email.me>,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 16:00, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article <t4e18g$lm$1@dont-email.me>,
> > Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
> >>>> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why
> >>>> not continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched
> >>>> twaddle to include religion and holy books?
> >>>>
> >>>> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
> >>>
> >>> What's that got to do with the price of eggs?
> >
> >> It's an unscientific belief system similar to anti-vaxxers. It is
> >> similar in that each belief system rubbishes every other belief
> >> system.
> >
> > Religions of one sort or another have been around from primitive
> > times. Refined over many many years. To many now simply a tradition -
> > like our Royal family or wearing strange clothes in the law.
> >
> > To classify being anti-vax in the same breath shows a remarkable lack
> > of judgment.

> Quite, some of the anti-vaxxers beliefs are made on facts or pseudo
> facts. That can hardly be said about religion which are based on blind
> belief and a selfish wish to live forever.

You seem to think there is only one religion.

> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
> fellow man, you're forgiven.

See above.

BTW, I'm not defending any particular religion. But then few attempt to
push their religion on here. Unlike the views of the madman Doom.

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <t4esp7$ugg$2@dont-email.me>,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 15:51, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article <t4bton$rgq$1@dont-email.me>,
> > Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
> >>> Vaccines prevented people being hospitalised or even dying from Covid. Two
> >>> thirds of the world population (5.1 billion) have had the vaccine and
> >>> there are almost no deaths due to the vaccine itself.
> >>>
> >>> It's been a spectacular loss of face for anti-vaxxers.
> >>>
> >>> Paranoid pseudo science and self-researched twaddle got them nowhere.
> >
> >> People believe in worse. If you wish to denigrate anti-vaxxers, why not
> >> continue your stand of pseudo science and self-researched twaddle to
> >> include religion and holy books?
> >
> >> Do you believe in some mythical deity?
> >
> > Is Pamela trying to force her views on others here, like Doom does? No? So
> > what religion she chooses to believe in or not is her business.

> Then both you and Pamela should respect other people's beliefs, rather
> than inflate yours as being all important.

I'm quite happy to keep my beliefs to myself.

But once anyone becomes evangelical about their beliefs on here, it is
open day for anyone to shoot them down.

--
*A bicycle can't stand alone because it's two tyred.*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article <XnsAE87E6003BA5037B93@144.76.35.252>,
Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:
> It must be very frustrating
> for anti-vaxxers to see millions (actually billions worldwide) of jabbed
> people come to no harm.

But they keep saying it's untested? ;-)

--
*It IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 20:07:17 +1000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> On 29/04/2022 10:21, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Finland and Sweden join, it'll go back on Ukraine's wishlist ...
>>>
>>> I think it always was on their wish list but with Crimea already
>>> occupied there is no way that NATO would want them as members.
>> Hence Truss saying Russia needs to be driven out of *all* of Ukraine?
>
> Perhaps. But she is just shooting her mouth off in this instance.
>
> It would be an ideal outcome for the West but some sort of compromise
> between Russian and Ukraine would seem inevitable to end hostilities
> since otherwise we could end up in a Third World War.

No, just a long running war like Afghanistan was for Russia.

> Putin so hates losing that he might well press the big red nuclear
> button to avoid it.

Even Putin isn't THAT stupid.

> Apparently senior US military commanders had considered this as a
> possible scenario when Trump was thrown out of the White House.

Even sillier.

> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-milley-nuclear-weapons-woodward-b1920046.html

> We have to hope that the Russian military have similar safeguards.

Unlikely with Putin driving that bus.

> Problem is that they view tactical nuclear weapons as a bigger bang.
> (and have previously used chemical/radioactive weapons on UK soil)

But that never risked nuclear annihilation of Russia.

> Basically they are a very heavily nuclear armed rogue state now.

Yes, but they were when they attempted to grab Afghanistan too.

In article <ufOdnbOyWp7xUvb_nZ2dnUU7-UPNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>,
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 23:31, Rod Speed wrote:
> > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:16:36 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> >> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
> >> fellow man, you're forgiven.

> There's just one sin ("The sin against the Holy Ghost") that can't be
> forgiven: unfortunately no-one knows what it is. It could be something
> that you do every day, so you are unforgivably damned, so might as well
> sin while you have the chance. All other sins may be forgiven, but
> Christian dogma varies as to how this happens.

> > Not sure that is true, tho it is less clear what roman catholic child
> > molesters 'think' in that regard. Hard to believe that they really
> > believe that all they have to do is confess their child molesting
> > before they die to still get into heaven, but presumably they do.

> There's nothing in the Bible forbidding "child molesting", however such
> term is defined.

That's odd. Most can find what they want in the bible to support their
view. Regardless of what that view is.

--
*There's two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither one works *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote

>>> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
>>> fellow man, you're forgiven.
>
> There's just one sin ("The sin against the Holy Ghost") that can't be
> forgiven: unfortunately no-one knows what it is. It could be something
> that you do every day, so you are unforgivably damned, so might as well
> sin while you have the chance. All other sins may be forgiven, but
> Christian dogma varies as to how this happens.
>
>> Not sure that is true, tho it is less clear what roman catholic child
>> molesters 'think' in that regard. Hard to believe that they really
>> believe that all they have to do is confess their child molesting
>> before they die to still get into heaven, but presumably they do.
>
> There's nothing in the Bible forbidding "child molesting", however such
> term is defined.

But the roman catholics have come up with all sorts of sins
which the bible doesn't even mention. And has no problem
with some sins mentioned in the bible like pride.

On 29/04/2022 12:43, Max Demian wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 23:31, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:16:36 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Some even despise conscience and say however shitty you've been to
>>> fellow man, you're forgiven.
>
> There's just one sin ("The sin against the Holy Ghost") that can't be
> forgiven: unfortunately no-one knows what it is. It could be something
> that you do every day, so you are unforgivably damned, so might as well
> sin while you have the chance. All other sins may be forgiven, but
> Christian dogma varies as to how this happens.

I thought blasphemy was 'unforgivable'?

>> Not sure that is true, tho it is less clear what roman catholic child
>> molesters 'think' in that regard. Hard to believe that they really
>> believe that all they have to do is confess their child molesting
>> before they die to still get into heaven, but presumably they do.
>
> There's nothing in the Bible forbidding "child molesting", however such
> term is defined.

I thought there was a catch-all about observing state laws/rules?

Since stoning practising homosexuals became unlawful, it didn't take
much to brush Leviticus 20:13 aside.