On 21/04/2022 at 08:53, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 15:27:05 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> guess
>> they could put a hold on your card for the maximum fare when you tag on
>> then take the hold off when you tag out and charge you the proper fare.
>> How does that work in London?
>
> I'm not sure whether they put a hold on your card when using the
> London Underground (subway), but London buses are charged at a flat
> rate of £1.65, no matter how long the journey.

On the London Underground, you have to "tap in" when you enter the
system and "tap out" when you leave it. If you fail to tap out, you
will, I believe, be charged the maximum charge for the day. A hold is
put on the card when you enter. The actual charge is calculated at the
end of the day.

--
Wilf

In article <170420220006037592%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>
> not only that, but as part of the merchant agreement, a merchant is
> *forbidden* from refusing high rewards cards while accepting lesser
> cards. if they accept any mc/visa card, they *must* accept *all* of
> them.

This is not true.

In message <210420220843379517%m-m@email.com> m-m <m-m@email.com> wrote:
> In article <170420220006037592%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>>
>> not only that, but as part of the merchant agreement, a merchant is
>> *forbidden* from refusing high rewards cards while accepting lesser
>> cards. if they accept any mc/visa card, they *must* accept *all* of
>> them.

> This is not true.

Yes it most certainly is true.

--
The trouble with witches is that they'll never run away from things
they really hate. And the trouble with small furry animals in a
corner is that, just occasionally, one of them's a mongoose.
--Witches Abroad

In article <210420220843379517%m-m@email.com>, m-m <m-m@email.com>
wrote:

> > not only that, but as part of the merchant agreement, a merchant is
> > *forbidden* from refusing high rewards cards while accepting lesser
> > cards. if they accept any mc/visa card, they *must* accept *all* of
> > them.
>
> This is not true.

yes it is.

<https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/10/are-other-peoples-credit-card-r
ewards-costing-you-money.html>
...If they want to accept any Visa card, Visa imposes an ³accept all
cards² rule, requiring them to accept low-fee and high-fee cards
alike. The same goes for Mastercard.
....
The card networks and issuing banks defend the ³accept all cards²
rule, saying it¹s consumer-friendly because it protects convenience
and choice: If consumers know a retailer accepts Visa, they don¹t
have to worry about whether it accepts the particular Visa they
carry. And they note that interchange fees support rewards programs
that cardholders value and are sometimes even obsessed with.

In article <slrnt61kcl.brm.g.kreme@zephyrus.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> > In article <t3q1br$95a$1@dont-email.me>, sms
> > <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> >> People paying cash are a real annoyance for the bus drivers as it can
> >> hold up the bus as they shove the money into the fare box.
>
> > you obviously do not use public transit and two years ago, you said
> > cash payments on transit was not possible.
>
> > in any event, the drivers don't care and it doesn't hold up the bus
> > either because the bus starts moving before the person is done
> > inserting the cash, after the other people have tapped.
>
> > more often, riders dig their card out of their backpack or purse or
> > wallet, which takes longer than paying cash.
>
> I THINK the local buses don't take cash anymore, but I am not positive.
> Getting a ticket on your phone is trivial, and the 'day pass' is the
> same cost as a single round trip on the bus, so that's what people use.
> The last time I rode the bus (last fall) everyone had a pre-paid ticket.
>
> I suspect it was technically possible to pay cash, but if so I didn't
> see the coin slot.
>
> The light-rail has never taken cash or tokens, only pre-paid passes.

it depends where. some transit systems accept cash while others do not.

sms's claim that cash causes extensive delays is more of his
unsubstantiated bullshit, and as i said, he once claimed paying cash
was not an option, and i remember finding a few places where it was.

On 4/21/2022 5:43 AM, m-m wrote:
> In article <170420220006037592%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> not only that, but as part of the merchant agreement, a merchant is
>> *forbidden* from refusing high rewards cards while accepting lesser
>> cards. if they accept any mc/visa card, they *must* accept *all* of
>> them.
>
> This is not true.

Retailers have lobbied for the right to reject high-rewards cards but of
course banks object to this. See
<https://www.wsj.com/articles/shoppers-love-rewards-credit-cards-retailers-hate-them-1537867801>.

What I've experienced is restaurants asking me to use a different credit
card. This happened most often when I tried to use an Amex, but also
happened once when I used my Citibank Costco Visa card.

On 4/21/2022 12:53 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:28:16 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
>> In message <eqd06hdgfk9v323p00q8jv04r6r7hk05pg@4ax.com> Chris in Makati <mail@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:47:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> On 4/18/2022 9:34 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> Here in London you need a debit card, credit card, or Oyster card to
>>>>> use the buses and subway. There's no option to pay cash.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't been to London in about five years but I seem to recall that
>>>> you could pay cash for Oyster Cards, either at the machine or in the
>>>> staffed ticket office.
>>
>>> That's what I'm saying. You can't use cash itself on the buses or
>>> subway in London. You need to use a bank card or buy an Oyster card.
>>
>> Apple Pay works perfectly well on London transit, we did not buy Oyster
>> cards and simply tapped on/off with our Apple watches.
>>
>> (Summer 2017)
>
> Yes, Apple Pay and any contactless payment works fine. I use it almost
> every day. But NO cash is accepted on the buses. That's the point I
> was making.

When we visited London in 2015, it was a better deal to buy an unlimited
multi-day Oyster Card than to pay per trip. I don't know if they took
NFC credit cards back then, but I don't believe so.

In article <t3rt1o$7fc$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> What I've experienced is restaurants asking me to use a different credit
> card.

businesses are prohibited from doing that.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> .
>
> To my knowledge, you can't pay with a credit card directly on any of our
> transit systems yet. Apparently it’s complicated for the transit systems
> to set up a credit card payment system when the cost of a trip isn’t
> known until the rider tags out at the destination.

Unlikely to be an issue. We can easily pay for fuel with CC at the pump
before delivery of the fuel. You usually get a £1 or £99 charge which is
then updated with the actual fuel charge.

I suspect it's more to do with the fees.

On 4/21/2022 1:27 PM, Chris wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> .
>>
>> To my knowledge, you can't pay with a credit card directly on any of our
>> transit systems yet. Apparently it’s complicated for the transit systems
>> to set up a credit card payment system when the cost of a trip isn’t
>> known until the rider tags out at the destination.
>
> Unlikely to be an issue. We can easily pay for fuel with CC at the pump
> before delivery of the fuel. You usually get a £1 or £99 charge which is
> then updated with the actual fuel charge.
>
> I suspect it's more to do with the fees.

They allow you to add value to your transit card ("Clipper Card") or app
with a credit card, so I don't think that it's the fees.

When you buy gasoline, there's only a five minute or so window between
your card being validated and the total amount of the purchase being
known. For a train ride on Caltrain or BART it can be more than two
hours before the total value of the trip is known.

They also need to keep track of transfers (which are good for a limited
time), fare discounts, day passes, monthly passes, and multi-ride
passes. We have 27 separate transit agencies in the San Francisco Bay
Area, 24 of which can be accessed using a transit app (or Clipper Card).

For some agencies, if you take more than a certain value of trips in one
day then you're automatically converted to a day pass so you're not
charged extra for additional rides. In San Francisco, you can load a
SFMTA monthly pass onto your Clipper Card which entitles you to use BART
within San Francisco at no extra charge which would be really complex to
do directly on a credit card.

The transit card and phone app can also be scanned by fare inspectors on
POP ("Proof of Payment") systems but that would be difficult to do on a
credit card which has no way of storing that information. There are
times when there is no cellular coverage available to fare inspectors,
such as when the train is in a tunnel.

In message <t3rtod$bus$1@dont-email.me> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 4/21/2022 12:53 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:28:16 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>> <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <eqd06hdgfk9v323p00q8jv04r6r7hk05pg@4ax.com> Chris in Makati <mail@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:47:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On 4/18/2022 9:34 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here in London you need a debit card, credit card, or Oyster card to
>>>>>> use the buses and subway. There's no option to pay cash.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't been to London in about five years but I seem to recall that
>>>>> you could pay cash for Oyster Cards, either at the machine or in the
>>>>> staffed ticket office.
>>>
>>>> That's what I'm saying. You can't use cash itself on the buses or
>>>> subway in London. You need to use a bank card or buy an Oyster card.
>>>
>>> Apple Pay works perfectly well on London transit, we did not buy Oyster
>>> cards and simply tapped on/off with our Apple watches.
>>>
>>> (Summer 2017)
>>
>> Yes, Apple Pay and any contactless payment works fine. I use it almost
>> every day. But NO cash is accepted on the buses. That's the point I
>> was making.

> When we visited London in 2015, it was a better deal to buy an unlimited
> multi-day Oyster Card than to pay per trip. I don't know if they took
> NFC credit cards back then, but I don't believe so.

There was no penalty for using Apple Pay for transit, and you were
charged not per trip, but at the end of the day your total travel was
calculated and you were charged the lowest rate that covered your
travel up to the daily cap, same as an Oyster card.

To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
of your trip.

--
NO. I CANNOT BE BIDDEN. I CANNOT BE FORCED. I WILL DO ONLY THAT WHICH
I KNOW TO BE RIGHT. --Mort

In article <t3sgkf$ajr$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> When you buy gasoline, there's only a five minute or so window between
> your card being validated and the total amount of the purchase being
> known.

no there isn't.

it can easily take longer than 5 minutes to refuel larger vehicles,
especially trucks, with tanks in the 100 gallon range.

> For a train ride on Caltrain or BART it can be more than two
> hours before the total value of the trip is known.

so what?

other transit systems don't have a problem with it.

> They also need to keep track of transfers (which are good for a limited
> time), fare discounts, day passes, monthly passes, and multi-ride
> passes. We have 27 separate transit agencies in the San Francisco Bay
> Area, 24 of which can be accessed using a transit app (or Clipper Card).

thereby making it one of the most, if not the most fucked up systems
anywhere in the world.

> The transit card and phone app can also be scanned by fare inspectors on
> POP ("Proof of Payment") systems but that would be difficult to do on a
> credit card which has no way of storing that information.

trains have their own communication network and not reliant on cellular.

> There are
> times when there is no cellular coverage available to fare inspectors,
> such as when the train is in a tunnel.

which tunnels might those be?

the transbay tube gained cellular service on all carriers way back in
2009, more than *twelve* *years* *ago*:

<https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2009/news20091221b>
BART customers who subscribe to the major mobile phone companies
can now use their mobile phones and wireless hotspot devices to make
calls or surf the web as they go under the bay between San Francisco
and Oakland.  Over the weekend Sprint, Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile
turned on their networks inside the Transbay Tube.  In fact, BART
passengers now have a continuous wireless access from the West
Oakland BART Station all the way to Balboa Park.

muni added it in 2016, *six* *years* *ago*:

<https://www.kqed.org/news/11087863/plan-would-bring-cell-service-to-s-f-
muni-tunnels-underground-stations>
Cell service could be coming soon to one of the last places in
the truly civilized world that still lacks it: San Francisco Muni's
tunnels and underground stations.

muni even has wifi:

<https://sfist.com/2021/04/09/sfmtas-castro-and-west-portal-subway-stati
ons-will-now-have-public-wi-fi/>
The SFMTA this week announced that the agency recently installed
wireless routers and cellular antennas inside the Muni Metro tunnels
‹ bringing more reliable internet access and also improved cellular
access to the below-ground tracks.

yet another sms 'story' debunked.

Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
> To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
> the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
> of your trip.

False. You can buy them in person in many places without providing any
personal details.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:01:21 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <t3rtod$bus$1@dont-email.me> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/21/2022 12:53 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:28:16 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>>> <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <eqd06hdgfk9v323p00q8jv04r6r7hk05pg@4ax.com> Chris in Makati <mail@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:47:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/18/2022 9:34 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here in London you need a debit card, credit card, or Oyster card to
>>>>>>> use the buses and subway. There's no option to pay cash.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't been to London in about five years but I seem to recall that
>>>>>> you could pay cash for Oyster Cards, either at the machine or in the
>>>>>> staffed ticket office.
>>>>
>>>>> That's what I'm saying. You can't use cash itself on the buses or
>>>>> subway in London. You need to use a bank card or buy an Oyster card.
>>>>
>>>> Apple Pay works perfectly well on London transit, we did not buy Oyster
>>>> cards and simply tapped on/off with our Apple watches.
>>>>
>>>> (Summer 2017)
>>>
>>> Yes, Apple Pay and any contactless payment works fine. I use it almost
>>> every day. But NO cash is accepted on the buses. That's the point I
>>> was making.
>
>> When we visited London in 2015, it was a better deal to buy an unlimited
>> multi-day Oyster Card than to pay per trip. I don't know if they took
>> NFC credit cards back then, but I don't believe so.
>
>There was no penalty for using Apple Pay for transit, and you were
>charged not per trip, but at the end of the day your total travel was
>calculated and you were charged the lowest rate that covered your
>travel up to the daily cap, same as an Oyster card.

That's right. In fact for many people there's little benefit in using
an Oyster card instead of other forms of contactless payment.

For me, I still use an Oyster card because I have my card linked to my
Senior Railcard, which gives me a 33% discount on train and subway
fares. You can't get that benefit if you use non-Oyster contactless
payments.

On 4/21/2022 11:58 PM, Chris wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>
>> To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
>> the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
>> of your trip.
>
> False. You can buy them in person in many places without providing any
> personal details.

Lewis is wrong of course™.

As any actual visitor to London knows, you can buy the Oyster cards in
person. We bought ours at the Earl's Court tube station, but I would
guess that every tube station also sells them.

On 4/22/2022 1:04 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> For me, I still use an Oyster card because I have my card linked to my
> Senior Railcard, which gives me a 33% discount on train and subway
> fares. You can't get that benefit if you use non-Oyster contactless
> payments.

We bought 7-Day unlimited Cards. Now these card are about a 29% savings
over paying daily (I don't remember how much we saved back in 2015, but
it was significant). You don't get these savings by paying with your
phone or an Oyster Card and reaching the daily limit. Of course if
you're not using the system for more than 5 days then there is no reason
to buy the Travelcard. We used the system every day, multiple times per day.

"7 Day Travelcards give you seven days' travel for the price of five
days," see
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/travelcards-and-group-tickets>.
While there is also a cap when using contactless, that cap applies only
for Monday to Sunday so as the web site points out "If you do a single
week of travel starting later in the week, for example from Thursday to
Wednesday, there are not enough days up to Sunday to reach a weekly cap.
So you may find it better value to buy a 7 Day Travelcard."

Alas, even though I now qualify as a "senior" the senior fares aren't
available to non-Londoners. When we visited Boston last year, I sent
away for a senior "Charlie Card," and there is no requirement that you
live in the Boston area to get one.

In message <t3tjn1$2l2$1@dont-email.me> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>
>> To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
>> the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
>> of your trip.

> False. You can buy them in person in many places without providing any
> personal details.

I'm sure you know better than London Transit, but I am going to go with
what they say over what you say.

Also, when in London we could not get Oyster cards without having them
mailed to us.

<https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/visitor-oyster-card>
Where to buy a Visitor Oyster card
You can't buy a Visitor Oyster card in London.

Now, kindly shut the fuck up about thing you are wrong about.

--
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is
possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that
something is impossible, he is probably wrong.

In message <t3u97s$9ds$1@dont-email.me> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 4/21/2022 11:58 PM, Chris wrote:
>> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>>
>>> To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
>>> the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
>>> of your trip.
>>
>> False. You can buy them in person in many places without providing any
>> personal details.

> Lewis is wrong of course™.

You, as always, know nothing.

> As any actual visitor to London knows, you can buy the Oyster cards in
> person. We bought ours at the Earl's Court tube station, but I would
> guess that every tube station also sells them.

Please not the TFL site specifically says:

Where to buy a Visitor Oyster card
You can't buy a Visitor Oyster card in London.

Now, fuck off you lying sack of shit,

--
Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda: Yes, they do Otto, they just don't understand it.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:13:02 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <t3tjn1$2l2$1@dont-email.me> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>>
>>> To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
>>> the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
>>> of your trip.
>
>> False. You can buy them in person in many places without providing any
>> personal details.
>
>I'm sure you know better than London Transit, but I am going to go with
>what they say over what you say.
>
>Also, when in London we could not get Oyster cards without having them
>mailed to us.
>
><https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/visitor-oyster-card>
>Where to buy a Visitor Oyster card
>You can't buy a Visitor Oyster card in London.
>
>Now, kindly shut the fuck up about thing you are wrong about.

You can only buy the Visitor Oyster card outside London. I'm not sure
if there are any benefits to the visitor card over the regular Oyster
card, but according to TfL:

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/buying-tickets-and-oyster

"You can get an Oyster card:
- Online with a contactless and Oyster account, if you live in the UK
- At Oyster Ticket Stops in many newsagents in London
- At all Tube, London Overground and most TfL Rail stations
- Some DLR stations
- At Visitor Centres
- At the Tramlink Shop in Croydon"

On 2022-04-22 7:14 a.m., Lewis wrote:
> In message <t3u97s$9ds$1@dont-email.me> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/21/2022 11:58 PM, Chris wrote:
>>> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
>>>> the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
>>>> of your trip.
>>>
>>> False. You can buy them in person in many places without providing any
>>> personal details.
>
>> Lewis is wrong of course™.
>
> You, as always, know nothing.

<https://jackmanenterprises.co.uk/sites/default/files/content/Ticket-Machine-opt.jpg>

Note what it says above the machines:

Oyster: Buy, top-up and refund

Bank cards, notes and coins accepted

Oyster: Buy and top-up

Bank cards and coins only

I have used these machines in London.

On 2022-04-22 7:13 a.m., Lewis wrote:
> In message <t3tjn1$2l2$1@dont-email.me> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>>
>>> To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
>>> the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
>>> of your trip.
>
>> False. You can buy them in person in many places without providing any
>> personal details.
>
> I'm sure you know better than London Transit, but I am going to go with
> what they say over what you say.
>
> Also, when in London we could not get Oyster cards without having them
> mailed to us.
>
> <https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/visitor-oyster-card>
> Where to buy a Visitor Oyster card
> You can't buy a Visitor Oyster card in London.
>
> Now, kindly shut the fuck up about thing you are wrong about.

Dude... ...have you ever been to London?

I have... ...multiple times.

You can buy an Oyster card with CASH in London Underground stations:

'You can buy your standard Oyster card from any London Airport,
Overground, and Underground ticket vending machines at the stations,
train station offices, or from any shop advertising “Oyster Ticket
stops” around London.'

<https://londonbusinfo.com/traveling-london-oyster-card-contactless/>

Now stop being such an ignoramus.

On 4/22/2022 8:55 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:13:02 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
>> In message <t3tjn1$2l2$1@dont-email.me> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
>>>> the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
>>>> of your trip.
>>
>>> False. You can buy them in person in many places without providing any
>>> personal details.
>>
>> I'm sure you know better than London Transit, but I am going to go with
>> what they say over what you say.
>>
>> Also, when in London we could not get Oyster cards without having them
>> mailed to us.
>>
>> <https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/visitor-oyster-card>
>> Where to buy a Visitor Oyster card
>> You can't buy a Visitor Oyster card in London.
>>
>> Now, kindly shut the fuck up about thing you are wrong about.
>
> You can only buy the Visitor Oyster card outside London. I'm not sure
> if there are any benefits to the visitor card over the regular Oyster
> card, but according to TfL:
>
> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/buying-tickets-and-oyster

Lewis is wrong of course™.

Amusingly, he changed the subject from "Oyster Card" to "Visitor Oyster
Card."

There's no difference in cost between buying an Oyster Card when you
arrive versus ordering a "Visitor Oyster Card" in advance.

I guess a non-cost benefit would be that when you get off the airplane
at Heathrow, or off a long-distance train in London, you can get on the
train without having to stop to buy an Oyster Card. The web site states
"Your card is ready to go as soon as you arrive in London, so no queuing
at stations." But there's no discount for buying the Oyster card by mail.

Things may have changed, but IIRC when we bought the 7 day card (in
2015) we did not have to pay the £5 for an Oyster Card. Now I see that
if you order the 7 day Oyster card in advance then it's separate from an
Oyster Card and there is no £5 deposit, but if you buy it when you
arrive then you have to pay the £5 deposit for the Oyster Card and then
add the Travelcard to the Oyster Card.

For tourists, buying an Oyster Card, then adding the Travelcard to it,
when you arrive is probably the best option if you're going to be in
London for 6 days or more. If you buy the Travelcard in advance you need
to know the exact start date and if your plans change then you're out of
luck.

In my area, if you want a Clipper Card for the 24 Bay Area transit
agencies, you can buy one for $3 at some stores (like Walgreens) or you
can get one free by mail or in person at some transit agency locations.
The Clipper Cards have the potential for some instances of fare evasion
so they don't want to give them out too freely.

In my area, while you can load the Clipper Card onto your phone, it's
probably a better idea to use a physical Clipper Card. When you're done
with it you can give it to someone else with whatever value is left on
it. Also you really don't want to be waving around your expensive smart
phone on BART where crime is rampant and stealing phones is popular.

When I was in D.C. two years ago, the inn we were staying at had a
drawer full of Metro cards for guests to take. At the end of the trip
you left the card with whatever value was left on it, though now that
the Metro goes to two of the Washington area airports I suspect that a
lot of guests take the cards with them.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
[...]

> Alas, even though I now qualify as a "senior" the senior fares aren't
> available to non-Londoners. When we visited Boston last year, I sent
> away for a senior "Charlie Card," and there is no requirement that you
> live in the Boston area to get one.

It's probably not a question of living in the area, but of being a
citizen of the country.

At least that's how it is (was :-() for us in Australia. We are senior
citizens, but don't qualify for senior citizen discounts/rates, because
we're Dutch citizens, not Australian ones.

In article <t3v2pl.4l4.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
<this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > Alas, even though I now qualify as a "senior" the senior fares aren't
> > available to non-Londoners. When we visited Boston last year, I sent
> > away for a senior "Charlie Card," and there is no requirement that you
> > live in the Boston area to get one.
>
> It's probably not a question of living in the area, but of being a
> citizen of the country.
>
> At least that's how it is (was :-() for us in Australia. We are senior
> citizens, but don't qualify for senior citizen discounts/rates, because
> we're Dutch citizens, not Australian ones.

as everyone knows, the dutch do not age.

Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
> In message <t3tjn1$2l2$1@dont-email.me> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>>
>>> To buy an Oyster card you must have a mailing address for them to send
>>> the card to, so you have to buy the visitor Oyster card well in advance
>>> of your trip.
>
>> False. You can buy them in person in many places without providing any
>> personal details.
>
> I'm sure you know better than London Transit, but I am going to go with
> what they say over what you say.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/buying-tickets-and-oyster

I also am going from experience. You only need walk around London and see
how easy it is to get a card. Before the pandemic I went fairly often.

> Also, when in London we could not get Oyster cards without having them
> mailed to us.

You clearly didn't look very hard or you are blind.

> <https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/visitor-oyster-card>
> Where to buy a Visitor Oyster card
> You can't buy a Visitor Oyster card in London.
>
> Now, kindly shut the fuck up about thing you are wrong about.

We were talking about oyster cards, not visitor oyster cards. There's no
need to overly complicate things.