AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
> Frank Slootweg wrote

>>> It [mobile payment] is safer, since if I lose my phone no one is
>>> likely to be able to get into the phone to use mobile payment.

> Not necessarily safer here. If I lose my credit card I can put an
> immediate stop on it using my bank's phone app. If I don't know I lost
> it the first charge will notify me by text and I can then stop it. And
> finally I'm not responsible for any fraudulent charges anyway.

But still better not to have to fart around stopping
the card or getting fraudulent charges reversed.

>>> One annoying thing in the U.S. is that using mobile wallet in a
>>> sit-down restaurant it is often not easy
>
> Not annoying here with a credit card. And when the server carries it
> away I immediately know if the charge is right because of the credit
> card notification text.
>
>>> don't bring a mobile terminal to your table.
>
> One local restaurant I frequent has a terminal sitting on the table all
> the time. It plays games too. I like it because I don't have to wait for
> the server when I'm done. Just plug in the credit card and go.

Still more convenient to wave the phone at it.

On 10/09/2021 00.35, nospam wrote:
> In article <6obq0ixjf2.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>> I used cash at McDonald1s the other day for coffee. The cost was $1.18 and
>>>> I handed the guy $2.00. He had to have someone help him count out the
>>>> change.
>>>
>>> there's no need to count anymore. the register shows exactly how much
>>> to give back.
>>>
>>
>> He still has to count the 82 cents :-P
>
> if he can't count change, he shouldn't be a cashier.
>

Not if nobody uses cash and they use juniors instead of experienced
workers. That's the point of the anecdote :-P

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/09/2021 00.48, Rod Speed wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> sms wrote
>
>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>
>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>
>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>
>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>
>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been responsible
>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>
>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is simply
>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>
> Its not a fact when the transaction value is over the contactless limit
> and you have to supply a PIN which you hardly ever use, so is hard
> to remember with multiple cards. No PIN is ever required for the
> transaction with applepay.

No apples here.

Pin is trivial to remember, I use it every other day. We only have a
card or two here.

>
>> On one occasion I needed to pay with the phone, having left at home the
>> card, the daft thing had forgotten my data and wanted me to input it
>> again, so I consider the thing pretty daft.
>
>> And it was also pretty unreliable: I had to fiddle half a minute with
>> the phone at the reader to get them to connect, and sometimes it failed
>> completely and had to pick the card instead.
>>
>> But I see other people using it happily.
>
> Because your phone is fucked.

Sure, I'll take your knowledgeable word for it :-P

>
>>>
>>> Personally I use Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay, whenever
>>> possible, for multiple reasons:
>>>
>>> 1. I have a Visa card that pays 3% cash back on mobile wallet purchases,
>>> but the highest cash-back physical card I have pays only 2% cash back.
>>>
>>> 2. At least on my Samsung phone, mobile payment with Google Pay and
>>> Samsung Pay is faster than fishing a credit card out my wallet. The
>>> iPhone is a bit of a pain right now due to mask requirements in stores,
>>> though I could always use my Apple Watch.
>>>
>>> 3. I don't need to carry so many cards in my wallet.
>>>
>>> 4. It is safer, since if I lose my phone no one is likely to be able to
>>> get into the phone to use mobile payment.
>>
>> Depends. A relative of mine lost her phone recently, or was stolen. A
>> week or two later she noticed her computer had been hacked, and had to
>> reset all her passwords, and have a new bank card issued. Related?
>> Possibly.
>
> Doesn’t happen with an iphone.

Sure, I'll take your knowledgeable word for it :-P

>> No, she certainly did not use mobile payment, she doesn't like new
>> technologies. They probably got access to her email, though, and from
>> that the rest.
>
> But they wouldn’t have been able to with an iphone.

Sure, I'll take your knowledgeable word for it :-P

>
>>
>>> Samsung Pay is especially nice, since as
>>> <https://www.pymnts.com/apple-pay-tracker/2021/7-years-later-6pct-people-with-iphones-in-us-use-apple-pay-in-store/>
>>>
>>> states, 70% of merchants support Apple Pay, which leaves 30% that do
>>> not. A couple of times a month I end up using Samsung Pay at a merchant
>>> that doesn't support Apple Pay or Google Pay (just happened on September
>>> 6th 2021).
>>>
>>> When I was in Europe and China in 2019, mobile wallet payment seemed to
>>> be the default, though in China it was only AliPay and WeChat Pay, there
>>> was no place I went that took Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay. I
>>> went into the Apple Store in Shanghai, but I didn't buy anything, I
>>> suppose that they probably took Apple Pay.
>>>
>>> One annoying thing in the U.S. is that using mobile wallet in a sit-down
>>> restaurant it is often not easy since unlike in Europe they generally
>>> don't bring a mobile terminal to your table.
>
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/9/2021 3:58 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
>> Frank Slootweg wrote

>>>> It [mobile payment] is safer, since if I lose my phone no one
>>>> is likely to be able to get into the phone to use mobile
>>>> payment.

>> Not necessarily safer here. If I lose my credit card I can put an
>> immediate stop on it using my bank's phone app. If I don't know I
>> lost it the first charge will notify me by text and I can then
>> stop it. And finally I'm not responsible for any fraudulent
>> charges anyway.

> But still better not to have to fart around stopping the card

I can stop the card using my bank's phone app in under a minute. Just
log in and switch it off.

>> or getting fraudulent charges reversed.

We were comparing the safety of a lost credit card to a lost phone
(above). But if you want to include farting around then I think there's
less farting around replacing a lost credit card than replacing a lost
phone.

>> One local restaurant I frequent has a terminal sitting on the
>> table all the time. It plays games too. I like it because I don't
>> have to wait for the server when I'm done. Just plug in the credit
>> card and go.
>
> Still more convenient to wave the phone at it.

I still have to dig either one out of a pocket to wave it. YMMV...

On 9/9/2021 1:13 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> Well, people in the US 'need' them, because they 'have' to have
> zillions of different credit (and debit?) cards, so in order to not have
> a silly looking butt, they have to store them electronically instead of
> physically! :-)

We're catching up to the ROW, slowly.

Almost no one uses debit cards for purchases anymore, unless they are
unable to qualify for a credit card, especially since debit cards don't
give very good, if any, cashback or rewards. You also can't do a lot of
things without a credit card, like rent a car most places, or reserve a
hotel room without pre-paying.

The number of cards people carry around has also gone down. They may
have cards they use for certain purchases, but they don't carry all of
them around all the time.

But it's true that we have more credit cards than people in other
countries. In the U.S., credit card benefits vary wildly. Each card has
different features and benefits, many are no annual fee but even the
ones with an annual fee often have benefits that far exceed the cost of
the annual fee.

• Cash or Airline Points Sign-Up Bonuses
• Flat-Rate Cash back up to 3%
• Higher cash-back percentages for specific categories
• Airplane Wi-Fi Access
• Extended warranty coverage up to two additional years
• Cellular phone damage coverage
• Primary Rental Car Insurance
• Trip Cancellation & Delay Protection
• Roadside Assistance
• Annual Bonuses
• Free checked bags (Airline Affinity Cards)
• Priority Boarding (Airline Affinity Cards)
• Airport Lounge Access
• Global Entry and TSA Reimbursement
• Lost & Delayed Baggage Insurance
• Evacuation and Transportation Insurance
• Virtual Credit Card Numbers
• No-fee Cash Advances
• Amazon Prime membership

On 9/9/2021 2:14 PM, Wilf wrote:

<snip>

> Well they definitely do have added value here in the UK over using a
> card with NFC because touch card transactions are limited by the banks
> to £45, whereas Apple Pay and presumably Google Pay, etc., are allowed
> any size of transaction.

That is true. Also, remember that in the U.S. we have no Chip & PIN so a
stolen card is easily used for large purchases until the bank sees a
pattern of fraud and shuts it down or until the account holder realizes
that the card is missing and notifies the bank.

For travelers from the U.S. to Europe, unless they have one of the
extremely few U.S. issued credit cards that supports Chip & PIN with PIN
Priority (instead of signature priority), it's less hassle to use your
phone to pay for purchases that exceed the contactless limit since there
is no receipt to sign.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>> sms wrote

>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>
>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>
>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>>
>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>
>>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>>
>>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been
>>>> responsible
>>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>>
>>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is simply
>>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>>
>> Its not a fact when the transaction value is over the contactless limit
>> and you have to supply a PIN which you hardly ever use, so is hard
>> to remember with multiple cards. No PIN is ever required for the
>> transaction with applepay.

> No apples here.

More fool you lot.

> Pin is trivial to remember, I use it every other day.

No you don’t with contactless cards and its much
more primitive to have to use a pin every other day.

> We only have a card or two here.

That’s bullshit too. One card is stupid, they get denied
access, or are short of funds or that system is down.

>>> On one occasion I needed to pay with the phone, having left at home the
>>> card, the daft thing had forgotten my data and wanted me to input it
>>> again, so I consider the thing pretty daft.
>>
>>> And it was also pretty unreliable: I had to fiddle half a minute with
>>> the phone at the reader to get them to connect, and sometimes it failed
>>> completely and had to pick the card instead.
>>>
>>> But I see other people using it happily.
>>
>> Because your phone is fucked.

> Sure, I'll take your knowledgeable word for it :-P

It must be if it doesn’t work most of the time.

>>>> Personally I use Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay, whenever
>>>> possible, for multiple reasons:
>>>>
>>>> 1. I have a Visa card that pays 3% cash back on mobile wallet
>>>> purchases,
>>>> but the highest cash-back physical card I have pays only 2% cash back.
>>>>
>>>> 2. At least on my Samsung phone, mobile payment with Google Pay and
>>>> Samsung Pay is faster than fishing a credit card out my wallet. The
>>>> iPhone is a bit of a pain right now due to mask requirements in stores,
>>>> though I could always use my Apple Watch.
>>>>
>>>> 3. I don't need to carry so many cards in my wallet.
>>>>
>>>> 4. It is safer, since if I lose my phone no one is likely to be able to
>>>> get into the phone to use mobile payment.
>>>
>>> Depends. A relative of mine lost her phone recently, or was stolen. A
>>> week or two later she noticed her computer had been hacked, and had to
>>> reset all her passwords, and have a new bank card issued. Related?
>>> Possibly.
>>
>> Doesn’t happen with an iphone.
>
> Sure, I'll take your knowledgeable word for it :-P

It doesn’t happen because the lost phone cant be used
by anyone who finds it when its properly secured with
touch id or face id.

>>> No, she certainly did not use mobile payment, she doesn't like new
>>> technologies. They probably got access to her email, though, and from
>>> that the rest.

>> But they wouldn’t have been able to with an iphone.

> Sure, I'll take your knowledgeable word for it :-P

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

>>>> Samsung Pay is especially nice, since as
>>>> <https://www.pymnts.com/apple-pay-tracker/2021/7-years-later-6pct-people-with-iphones-in-us-use-apple-pay-in-store/>
>>>>
>>>> states, 70% of merchants support Apple Pay, which leaves 30% that do
>>>> not. A couple of times a month I end up using Samsung Pay at a merchant
>>>> that doesn't support Apple Pay or Google Pay (just happened on
>>>> September
>>>> 6th 2021).
>>>>
>>>> When I was in Europe and China in 2019, mobile wallet payment seemed to
>>>> be the default, though in China it was only AliPay and WeChat Pay,
>>>> there
>>>> was no place I went that took Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay. I
>>>> went into the Apple Store in Shanghai, but I didn't buy anything, I
>>>> suppose that they probably took Apple Pay.
>>>>
>>>> One annoying thing in the U.S. is that using mobile wallet in a
>>>> sit-down
>>>> restaurant it is often not easy since unlike in Europe they generally
>>>> don't bring a mobile terminal to your table.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
>>> Frank Slootweg wrote

>>>>> It [mobile payment] is safer, since if I lose my phone no one
>>>>> is likely to be able to get into the phone to use mobile
>>>>> payment.
>
>>> Not necessarily safer here. If I lose my credit card I can put an
>>> immediate stop on it using my bank's phone app. If I don't know I
>>> lost it the first charge will notify me by text and I can then
>>> stop it. And finally I'm not responsible for any fraudulent
>>> charges anyway.
>
>> But still better not to have to fart around stopping the card
>
> I can stop the card using my bank's phone app in under a minute. Just log
> in and switch it off.

So can I but it’s a lot more convenient to not have to.

>>> or getting fraudulent charges reversed.

> We were comparing the safety of a lost credit card to a lost phone
> (above). But if you want to include farting around then I think there's
> less farting around replacing a lost credit card than replacing a lost
> phone.

That’s wrong too. With the phone you can buy it anywhere
and just enter your apple id and carry on regardless. With
the card you have to wait for it to arrive before you can use it.

>>> One local restaurant I frequent has a terminal sitting on the
>>> table all the time. It plays games too. I like it because I don't
>>> have to wait for the server when I'm done. Just plug in the credit
>>> card and go.
>>
>> Still more convenient to wave the phone at it.
>
> I still have to dig either one out of a pocket to wave it. YMMV...

But you don’t have to dig the right card out of the wallet, then
put it back in the wallet again with the phone.

In article <she5au$3nc$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Almost no one uses debit cards for purchases anymore, unless they are
> unable to qualify for a credit card, especially since debit cards don't
> give very good, if any, cashback or rewards.

false.

<https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/how-gen-z-millennials-gen-x-ba
by-boomers-use-credit-cards/>
€ Debit cards made up 58% of people's payment preferences in 2019,
but fell to 42% in 2021.
....
We asked American credit card owners how they prefer to make
most of their payments. Here's the percentage that said credit
cards, debit cards, and cash:
1 Credit card: 45.25%
2 Debit card: 42.45%
3 Cash: 12.30%

<https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/industry/financial-services/co
nsumer-payment-survey.html>
€ Millennial and Gen Z consumers may pose the biggest challenges
to the credit card market. Younger consumers typically prefer to use
debit cards over credit cards, especially when choosing a default
payment method for digital payments.

debit cards are particularly useful for transactions that incur a
'convenience fee' which is often much less for a debit card than a
credit card, including with your favourite company.

anyone can qualify for a credit card, it just depends which one. those
with bad credit will be limited to a secured card with a relatively low
credit limit, defined by their security deposit.

> You also can't do a lot of
> things without a credit card, like rent a car most places, or reserve a
> hotel room without pre-paying.

use a credit card for those transactions.

meanwhile, roughly half of everyday transactions are with a debit card,
more so for the younger demographic. see above.

On 9/9/2021 4:01 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 00.35, nospam wrote:
>> In article <6obq0ixjf2.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>> I used cash at McDonald1s the other day for coffee. The cost was $1.18 and
>>>>> I handed the guy $2.00. He had to have someone help him count out the
>>>>> change.
>>>>
>>>> there's no need to count anymore. the register shows exactly how much
>>>> to give back.
>>>>
>>>
>>> He still has to count the 82 cents :-P
>>
>> if he can't count change, he shouldn't be a cashier.
>>
>
> Not if nobody uses cash and they use juniors instead of experienced
> workers. That's the point of the anecdote :-P

When I was in China in 2019 it was just before China finally allowed
foreign visitors, that were there for tourism or business, to use
AliPay. Cash was just not used by people living in China and some
businesses were not familiar with how to accept cash. Even the beggars
took AliPay or WeChat Pay. I rode the bus a couple of times and clearly
no one else on the bus was paying in cash, everyone paid with their phones.

A teenage worker at McDonald's probably has limited experience with
paying cash or making change.

On 2021-09-09 18:35:36 +0000, Wilf said:
> On 09/09/2021 at 18:56, sms wrote:
>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>
>>
>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>
>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>
>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>
>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>
>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been responsible
>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>
>> Personally I use Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay, whenever
>> possible, for multiple reasons:
>>
>> 1. I have a Visa card that pays 3% cash back on mobile wallet purchases,
>> but the highest cash-back physical card I have pays only 2% cash back.
>>
>> 2. At least on my Samsung phone, mobile payment with Google Pay and
>> Samsung Pay is faster than fishing a credit card out my wallet. The
>> iPhone is a bit of a pain right now due to mask requirements in stores,
>> though I could always use my Apple Watch.
>>
>> 3. I don't need to carry so many cards in my wallet.
>>
>> 4. It is safer, since if I lose my phone no one is likely to be able to
>> get into the phone to use mobile payment.
>>
>> Samsung Pay is especially nice, since as
>> <https://www.pymnts.com/apple-pay-tracker/2021/7-years-later-6pct-people-with-iphones-in-us-use-apple-pay-in-store/>
>>
>> states, 70% of merchants support Apple Pay, which leaves 30% that do
>> not. A couple of times a month I end up using Samsung Pay at a merchant
>> that doesn't support Apple Pay or Google Pay (just happened on September
>> 6th 2021).
>>
>> When I was in Europe and China in 2019, mobile wallet payment seemed to
>> be the default, though in China it was only AliPay and WeChat Pay, there
>> was no place I went that took Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay. I
>> went into the Apple Store in Shanghai, but I didn't buy anything, I
>> suppose that they probably took Apple Pay.
>>
>> One annoying thing in the U.S. is that using mobile wallet in a sit-down
>> restaurant it is often not easy since unlike in Europe they generally
>> don't bring a mobile terminal to your table.
>
> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.

Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use
Apple / Google Pay in the shops. This week there has been a three-day
(so far) outage of internet banking for at leat one of the big banks.

Banks here no longer accept cheques. Even before Covid some places
(such as buses) were reluctant to accept cash. It really makes you
wnoder how people will be expected to be able to buy anything when
there are infrastructure issues causing these electronic gimmicks
become useless.

In article <sheg8a$gpi$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

>
> Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
> one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use
> Apple / Google Pay in the shops.

apple/google pay does not use the internet. they work the same way a
contactless card does, but with additional security.

any outage affecting payments would also affect physical cards.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>
>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>
>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>
>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>
>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been responsible
>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>
> Or the 'increase' in contactless debit cards. In our country (NL) -
> and probably in the most of Europe - there is very little 'increase',
> because it's already close to 100%.
>
>> Personally I use Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay, whenever
>> possible, for multiple reasons:
>>
>> 1. I have a Visa card that pays 3% cash back on mobile wallet purchases,
>> but the highest cash-back physical card I have pays only 2% cash back.
>>
>> 2. At least on my Samsung phone, mobile payment with Google Pay and
>> Samsung Pay is faster than fishing a credit card out my wallet. The
>> iPhone is a bit of a pain right now due to mask requirements in stores,
>> though I could always use my Apple Watch.
>>
>> 3. I don't need to carry so many cards in my wallet.
>>
>> 4. It is safer, since if I lose my phone no one is likely to be able to
>> get into the phone to use mobile payment.
>>
>> Samsung Pay is especially nice, since as
>> <https://www.pymnts.com/apple-pay-tracker/2021/7-years-later-6pct-people-with-iphones-in-us-use-apple-pay-in-store/>
>> states, 70% of merchants support Apple Pay, which leaves 30% that do
>> not. A couple of times a month I end up using Samsung Pay at a merchant
>> that doesn't support Apple Pay or Google Pay (just happened on September
>> 6th 2021).
>>
>> When I was in Europe and China in 2019, mobile wallet payment seemed to
>> be the default, though in China it was only AliPay and WeChat Pay, there
>> was no place I went that took Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay. I
>> went into the Apple Store in Shanghai, but I didn't buy anything, I
>> suppose that they probably took Apple Pay.

> As far as Europe is concerned: That was your experience
> as a *visitor*. For locals, (Apple/Google/Samsung) mobile
> wallet payment is a minority, because we already had
> pay-by-phone before Apple/Google/Samsung came to Europe.

But applepay works much better because you
just wave the phone at the terminal and its done.

> Of course *merchants* will *accept* as many payment methods
> as is possible/feasible without too much cost (for them).

> For most Europeans, Apple/Google/Samsung Pay is a solution waiting for
> a problem. *Some* might use it, because they travel outside Europe, or
> want to be 'flash' (I.e. like having an AMEX CC in the old days. :-)).

Or because they have noticed that is easier to use and
that matters when you pay for everything that way.

>> One annoying thing in the U.S. is that using mobile wallet in a sit-down
>> restaurant it is often not easy since unlike in Europe they generally
>> don't bring a mobile terminal to your table.
>
> You've been to too expensive restaurants (see AMEX CC above)! :-) In
> normal restaurants, mobile terminals are quite common. Used one just
> yesterday.

On 09/09/2021 03:10 PM, sms wrote:
> On 9/9/2021 1:06 PM, badgolferman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I used cash at McDonald’s the other day for coffee. The cost was $1.18 and
>> I handed the guy $2.00. He had to have someone help him count out the
>> change.
>
> When I was 16 I had a job at McDonald's while I started out making
> milkshakes, they soon found out that I knew how to figure out sales tax
> and make change. Back then, the mechanical cash registers didn't tell
> you how much change to give out, or calculate sales tax. At least back
> then there was no fractional sales taxes, it was a flat 4% for the State
> with nothing for the city or county or transit agency.

My 16-YO job was selling stuff at Sears. We not only had to figure the
3% sales tax in our head, we had to add up the customer's bill with
pencil and paper and ring the total up on the cash register. AND make
change. AND be able to answer questions about the merchandise. I felt
really strange advising grandmothers about their towel and doily
purchases :-)

> When I worked at a department store at 17, part of the hiring process
> was taking a math test.

Yes. And 'training' was a whole day, mostly devoted to the Sears
Revolving Charge (the equivalent of paying the minimum monthly payment
until everything was paid off): you had to make a phone call to get
authorization for the charge to be added, which generally took perhaps
10 minutes. I was never able to understand why people would pay
ridiculous interest on a $5 purchase.

--
Cheers, Bev
"My life outside of USENET is so full of love and kindness that I have
to come here to find the venom and bile that I crave." --R. Damiani

On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 22:59:16 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 09/09/2021 03:10 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 9/9/2021 1:06 PM, badgolferman wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I used cash at McDonald’s the other day for coffee. The cost was $1.18 and
>>> I handed the guy $2.00. He had to have someone help him count out the
>>> change.
>>
>> When I was 16 I had a job at McDonald's while I started out making
>> milkshakes, they soon found out that I knew how to figure out sales tax
>> and make change. Back then, the mechanical cash registers didn't tell
>> you how much change to give out, or calculate sales tax. At least back
>> then there was no fractional sales taxes, it was a flat 4% for the State
>> with nothing for the city or county or transit agency.
>
>My 16-YO job was selling stuff at Sears. We not only had to figure the
>3% sales tax in our head, we had to add up the customer's bill with
>pencil and paper and ring the total up on the cash register. AND make
>change. AND be able to answer questions about the merchandise. I felt
>really strange advising grandmothers about their towel and doily
>purchases :-)
>
>> When I worked at a department store at 17, part of the hiring process
>> was taking a math test.
>
>Yes. And 'training' was a whole day, mostly devoted to the Sears
>Revolving Charge (the equivalent of paying the minimum monthly payment
>until everything was paid off): you had to make a phone call to get
>authorization for the charge to be added, which generally took perhaps
>10 minutes. I was never able to understand why people would pay
>ridiculous interest on a $5 purchase.

I remember buying a packet of faucet washers at Sears, 7-1/2 cents or
something like that, and the girl at the cask register says, "Will
that be cash or charge?"
--
Cheers,

John B.

Am 09.09.21 um 22:30 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
> On 09/09/2021 19.56, sms wrote:
>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>
>>
>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>
>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>
>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>
>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been responsible
>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>
> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is simply
> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
> CL since years). Just a fact.

That is what I called an electronic cash transaction. In Europe they are
the real growth area. In Switzerland they call it "Twint". Even
P2P-Transactions are possible. Thats the way we clear money issues in
the wider family.

https://www.twint.ch/en/

The next step is to internationalise these types of transactions. Apple
Pay and Google Pay are very old fashioned and cumbersome.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is simply
> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
> CL since years). Just a fact.

Also in the UK, contactless has been around "forever", covid has seen
the reluctance to use it for low value purchases go away, my bank
refuses to participate in google pay and like yours provides its own
contactless functionality as part of their banking app.

I don't find it takes any longer to pay by contactless phone than by
contactless card, just remove from pocket and wave it over the reader,
if it's above the floor-limit you might have to give it a PIN or
fingerprint which you can't do with a card, but the limit keeps
increasing, it was £30 pre-pandemic, now it's £45, from next month it'll
be £100 so filling the car up will be in scope.

On 10/09/2021 at 10:24, Andy Burns wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is simply
>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>
> Also in the UK, contactless has been around "forever", covid has seen
> the reluctance to use it for low value purchases go away, my bank
> refuses to participate in google pay and like yours provides its own
> contactless functionality as part of their banking app.
>
> I don't find it takes any longer to pay by contactless phone than by
> contactless card, just remove from pocket and wave it over the reader,
> if it's above the floor-limit you might have to give it a PIN or
> fingerprint which you can't do with a card, but the limit keeps
> increasing, it was £30 pre-pandemic, now it's £45, from next month it'll
> be £100 so filling the car up will be in scope.
>
>

In the UK, there is currently a £45 limit on contactless card
transactions. There is no such limit when using Apple Pay contactless
transactions.

--
Wilf

sms wrote:

> Personally I use Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay, whenever
> possible
>
> It is safer, since if I lose my phone no one is likely to be able to
> get into the phone to use mobile payment.

There is no need to unlock my phone to make a contactless payment
(unless above the limit that applies to contactless cards).

Wilf wrote:

> In the UK, there is currently a £45 limit on contactless card
> transactions.

Which will raise to £100 from 15th October.

> There is no such limit when using Apple Pay contactless
> transactions.

There is no such limit with my bank's contactless app (although I
suspect it requires PIN/fingerprint as additional proof of id).

sms wrote:

> debit cards don't give very good, if any, cashback or rewards. You also
> can't do a lot of things without a credit card, like rent a car most
> places, or reserve a hotel room without pre-paying.

Here (UK) most people here don't bother will cashback/rewards, personal
credit and debit cards are basically treated identically (not quite the
case with business cards) American Express and Diners Card are not
widely accepted.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>
>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>
>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>
>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>
>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been responsible
>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>
> Or the 'increase' in contactless debit cards. In our country (NL) -
> and probably in the most of Europe - there is very little 'increase',
> because it's already close to 100%.
>
>> Personally I use Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay, whenever
>> possible, for multiple reasons:
>>
>> 1. I have a Visa card that pays 3% cash back on mobile wallet purchases,
>> but the highest cash-back physical card I have pays only 2% cash back.
>>
>> 2. At least on my Samsung phone, mobile payment with Google Pay and
>> Samsung Pay is faster than fishing a credit card out my wallet. The
>> iPhone is a bit of a pain right now due to mask requirements in stores,
>> though I could always use my Apple Watch.
>>
>> 3. I don't need to carry so many cards in my wallet.
>>
>> 4. It is safer, since if I lose my phone no one is likely to be able to
>> get into the phone to use mobile payment.
>>
>> Samsung Pay is especially nice, since as
>> <https://www.pymnts.com/apple-pay-tracker/2021/7-years-later-6pct-people-with-iphones-in-us-use-apple-pay-in-store/>
>>
>> states, 70% of merchants support Apple Pay, which leaves 30% that do
>> not. A couple of times a month I end up using Samsung Pay at a merchant
>> that doesn't support Apple Pay or Google Pay (just happened on September
>> 6th 2021).
>>
>> When I was in Europe and China in 2019, mobile wallet payment seemed to
>> be the default, though in China it was only AliPay and WeChat Pay, there
>> was no place I went that took Apple Pay, Google Pay, or Samsung Pay. I
>> went into the Apple Store in Shanghai, but I didn't buy anything, I
>> suppose that they probably took Apple Pay.
>
> As far as Europe is concerned: That was your experience as a
> *visitor*. For locals, (Apple/Google/Samsung) mobile wallet payment is a
> minority, because we already had pay-by-phone before Apple/Google/Samsung
> came to Europe.

We did? How did we pay for a pint/litre milk with only our phones before
A/G/S pay?

> Of course *merchants* will *accept* as many payment
> methods as is possible/feasible without too much cost (for them).

They all work using the same contactless technology so there's nothing they
merchant needs to do once they do contactless.

> For most Europeans, Apple/Google/Samsung Pay is a solution waiting for
> a problem. *Some* might use it, because they travel outside Europe, or
> want to be 'flash' (I.e. like having an AMEX CC in the old days. :-)).
>
>> One annoying thing in the U.S. is that using mobile wallet in a sit-down
>> restaurant it is often not easy since unlike in Europe they generally
>> don't bring a mobile terminal to your table.
>
> You've been to too expensive restaurants (see AMEX CC above)! :-) In
> normal restaurants, mobile terminals are quite common. Used one just
> yesterday.

He meant that in the US they don't have mobile terminals in restaurants
like we do on this side of the pond. Makes paying for your a meal more of a
pain.

On 10/09/2021 04.34, Your Name wrote:
> On 2021-09-09 18:35:36 +0000, Wilf said:
>> On 09/09/2021 at 18:56, sms wrote:
>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>

>> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
>> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.
>
> Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
> one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use Apple
> / Google Pay in the shops. This week there has been a three-day (so far)
> outage of internet banking for at leat one of the big banks.
>
> Banks here no longer accept cheques. Even before Covid some places (such
> as buses) were reluctant to accept cash. It really makes you wnoder how
> people will be expected to be able to buy anything when there are
> infrastructure issues causing these electronic gimmicks become useless.

Buses here use preloaded/prepaid specific cards, different one per city.
At least where I tried. Those are not affected by internet outages.

Funnily, in my city we load the card paying the driver with paper money :-D

Phones can not be used - again in the cities I have used their buses.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/09/2021 01.44, Rod Speed wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>> sms wrote
>
>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>>
>>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>>
>>>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>>>
>>>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been
>>>>> responsible
>>>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>>>
>>>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>>>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>>>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>>>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is
>>>> simply
>>>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>>>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>>>
>>> Its not a fact when the transaction value is over the contactless limit
>>> and you have to supply a PIN which you hardly ever use, so is hard
>>> to remember with multiple cards. No PIN is ever required for the
>>> transaction with applepay.
>
>> No apples here.
>
> More fool you lot.

Interesting that you have to resort to insults :-P

....

skipping the rest.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/09/2021 10.51, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 09.09.21 um 22:30 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>> On 09/09/2021 19.56, sms wrote:
>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>
>>>
>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>
>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>
>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>
>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been responsible
>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>
>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is simply
>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>
> That is what I called an electronic cash transaction. In Europe they are
> the real growth area. In Switzerland they call it "Twint". Even
> P2P-Transactions are possible. Thats the way we clear money issues in
> the wider family.
>
> https://www.twint.ch/en/

That's another one. No, I was talking of an specific bank app that
replaces the card, and the phone works as if it were the NFC card. Quite
cumbersome.

1) Open the phone, identify.
2) Open the banking app, identify.
3) Line up to pay at the supermarket. Unload your goods into the "belt".
4) The bank app has timed out and closed. Open it up again - and it
takes a few seconds to respond after identification.
5) People in the line get politely restless.
6) Fiddle with the cashier machine reading the phone - there is no
marking to say where the antena is in both devices; some times it works,
some times it doesn't; even a machine at the same supermarket will work,
the next will not.
7) Apologize and use the card.

I was using the phone because the bank asked us to try.

So the fact is I see very few people use the phone to pay, and obviously
I don't know what app they use - I saw *one* young man yesterday using
it. Happened to be a supermarket staff doing a purchase - maybe they
have a staff app?

Me, I would never use Apple/Google pay and give them even more data;
only in case of last resort.

Yes, we use a user to user paying app, here Bizum is very popular. Just
not for paying merchants, initially it was not activated, dunno about now.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizum

> The next step is to internationalise these types of transactions. Apple
> Pay and Google Pay are very old fashioned and cumbersome.

Certainly, that's the next step.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.