Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On Sep 10, 2021, Rob wrote
> (in article <slrnsjmlaj.k1u.nomail@xs9.xs4all.nl>):
>
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> > Neither Apple nor Google will succeed outside the US exactely because of
>> > the resons you mentioned. Most people want to do the business directly
>> > with their bank and the merchant. Credit card companies and hardware
>> > supppliers slow things down and make it unnecessarily expensive and in
>> > paritcular they create no added value. Au contraire.
>>
>> Well, actually here (Netherlands) you would not do business directly
>> with the merchant in this case. The payment terminals communicate with
>> a local payment provider (a company with status similar to a bank) which
>> processes your payment and communicates with your bank. The merchant
>> only gets the total paid amount for that day, not the transaction
>> details of your transaction. So they have no way to track you based
>> on your transaction and details they may get from the payment (like
>> your account number or card number). And the bank gets only the payment
>> requests from the payment provider and have no way to link that to your
>> particular purchase.
>> So privacy is actually quite good in this case. Nobody gets the
>> information to track your purchases, unless you provide the merchant with
>> other identifying information (like a shop discount card).
>
> As an American traveling in the Netherlands I have had no issues using ApplePay, and/or Amex at Schiphol, or in Amsterdam.

Yes sure it can be used. And some people may even use it.
But mainly tourists I guess. Even creditcards are not widely used
by Dutch people inside the country, although quite some people have
one. They only use it when on trip outside the country or when
making certain internet payments.
For payments in stores we use the debit cards issued by a local bank
(in chip mode, not magnetic stripe) or the app on a mobile phone.

On 9/10/2021 3:48 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<snip>

> Me, I would never use Apple/Google pay and give them even more data;
> only in case of last resort.

Actually, the reason a few chain stores in the U.S. won't accept Apple
Pay or Google Pay is because they get _less_ data than they get from
regular credit card transactions, either Chip & Pin or contactless.
Apple Pay and Google Pay obfuscate the transaction so the merchant gets
less data and the merchant doesn't even see the actually credit card number.

In article <shg7kb$7a4$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Actually, the reason a few chain stores in the U.S. won't accept Apple
> Pay or Google Pay is because they get _less_ data than they get from
> regular credit card transactions, either Chip & Pin or contactless.

nope. contactless does not send the cardholder's name/address, so if a
merchant accepts contactless but not apple/google pay and claims it's
because of 'less data', they are lying.

the reason some stores block apple/google pay is because they're
pushing their own mobile payment system, notably walmart.

> Apple Pay and Google Pay obfuscate the transaction so the merchant gets
> less data and the merchant doesn't even see the actually credit card number.

there is no obfuscation.

merchants see a credit card number, just as they would with a normal
emv transaction.

what they don't see is the cardholder's name/address, unless that
information is provided by the customer (such as when ordering online
to be delivered) or the merchant already knows it (such as a doctor's
office).

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
> Carlos E. R. wrote
>> sms wrote

>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>
>>>
>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>
>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>
>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>
>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been responsible
>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>
>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is simply
>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>> CL since years). Just a fact.

> That is what I called an electronic cash transaction.
> In Europe they are the real growth area. In Switzerland
> they call it "Twint". Even P2P-Transactions are possible.
> Thats the way we clear money issues in the wider family.

> https://www.twint.ch/en/
>
> The next step is to internationalise these types of transactions.

> Apple Pay and Google Pay are very old fashioned and cumbersome.

Mindless bullshit. Nothing cumbersome about waving the phone at the
terminal.

Nothing old fashioned about it either.

Lot more farting around using the twint app than apple pay.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> On 10/09/2021 04.34, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2021-09-09 18:35:36 +0000, Wilf said:
>>> On 09/09/2021 at 18:56, sms wrote:
>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>
>
>>> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
>>> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.
>>
>> Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
>> one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use Apple
>> / Google Pay in the shops. This week there has been a three-day (so far)
>> outage of internet banking for at leat one of the big banks.
>>
>> Banks here no longer accept cheques. Even before Covid some places (such
>> as buses) were reluctant to accept cash. It really makes you wnoder how
>> people will be expected to be able to buy anything when there are
>> infrastructure issues causing these electronic gimmicks become useless.
>
> Buses here use preloaded/prepaid specific cards, different one per city.
> At least where I tried. Those are not affected by internet outages.
>
> Funnily, in my city we load the card paying the driver with paper money
> :-D
>
> Phones can not be used - again in the cities I have used their buses.

Virtually everyone except you dinosaurs allow you to pay with the phone now
as well.

On 2021-09-10 1:51 a.m., Joerg Lorenz wrote:

>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been responsible
>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>
>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is simply
>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>
> That is what I called an electronic cash transaction. In Europe they are
> the real growth area. In Switzerland they call it "Twint". Even
> P2P-Transactions are possible. Thats the way we clear money issues in
> the wider family.
>
> https://www.twint.ch/en/
>
> The next step is to internationalise these types of transactions. Apple
> Pay and Google Pay are very old fashioned and cumbersome.

And in what way precisely is TWINT less "old fashioned and cumbersome"
than Apple Pay and Google Pay?

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>>> sms wrote
>>
>>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than
>>>>>> iOS
>>>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>>>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>>>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been
>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>>>>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>>>>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>>>>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is
>>>>> simply
>>>>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>>>>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>>>>
>>>> Its not a fact when the transaction value is over the contactless limit
>>>> and you have to supply a PIN which you hardly ever use, so is hard
>>>> to remember with multiple cards. No PIN is ever required for the
>>>> transaction with applepay.
>>
>>> No apples here.
>>
>> More fool you lot.

> Interesting that you have to resort to insults :-P

That’s not an insult. I realise that english isn't your first language.

> ...

> skipping the rest.

Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Joerg Lorenz wrote
>> Am 09.09.21 um 22:30 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>> On 09/09/2021 19.56, sms wrote:
>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>
>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>
>>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>>
>>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been
>>>> responsible
>>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>>
>>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is simply
>>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>>
>> That is what I called an electronic cash transaction. In Europe they are
>> the real growth area. In Switzerland they call it "Twint". Even
>> P2P-Transactions are possible. Thats the way we clear money issues in
>> the wider family.
>>
>> https://www.twint.ch/en/
>
> That's another one. No, I was talking of an specific bank app that
> replaces the card, and the phone works as if it were the NFC card. Quite
> cumbersome.

> 1) Open the phone, identify.
> 2) Open the banking app, identify.
> 3) Line up to pay at the supermarket. Unload your goods into the "belt".
> 4) The bank app has timed out and closed. Open it up again - and it
> takes a few seconds to respond after identification.
> 5) People in the line get politely restless.

That’s where you are doing it wrong. You should be
putting your stuff on the belt, wait till the checkout
monkey has scanned most of the items, then setup
your phone to make the payment. No one then has
to wait for you to do anything.

And with applepay its even easier, take your phone
out of your pocket with the registered thumb on
the touch id or look at the screen to have the
face id recognise you and wave it at the terminal
or just wave your wrist with the watch at the terminal.

> 6) Fiddle with the cashier machine reading the phone - there is no
> marking to say where the antena is in both devices; some times it works,
> some times it doesn't; even a machine at the same supermarket will work,
> the next will not.

You need a better phone.

> 7) Apologize and use the card.

> I was using the phone because the bank asked us to try.

> So the fact is I see very few people use the phone to pay, and obviously
> I don't know what app they use - I saw *one* young man yesterday using
> it. Happened to be a supermarket staff doing a purchase - maybe they
> have a staff app?
>
> Me, I would never use Apple/Google pay and give
> them even more data; only in case of last resort.

Apple gets no data at all. And I couldn’t care
less if anyone knows what I have bought.

> Yes, we use a user to user paying app,

We do too, and more than one too.

> here Bizum is very popular. Just not for paying merchants,
> initially it was not activated, dunno about now.

But even if it works for merchants, its more
farting around than just waving the phone
or watch at the merchant terminal.

> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizum

>> The next step is to internationalise these types of transactions.

>> Apple> Pay and Google Pay are very old fashioned and cumbersome.

> Certainly, that's the next step.

Its there now with apple pay and google pay.

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
> Carlos E. R. wrote

>> That's another one. No, I was talking of an specific bank app that
>> replaces the card, and the phone works as if it were the NFC card. Quite
>> cumbersome.
>>
>> 1) Open the phone, identify.
>> 2) Open the banking app, identify.
>> 3) Line up to pay at the supermarket. Unload your goods into the "belt".
>> 4) The bank app has timed out and closed. Open it up again - and it
>> takes a few seconds to respond after identification.
>> 5) People in the line get politely restless.
>> 6) Fiddle with the cashier machine reading the phone - there is no
>> marking to say where the antena is in both devices; some times it works,
>> some times it doesn't; even a machine at the same supermarket will work,
>> the next will not.
>> 7) Apologize and use the card.
>
> Not very competitive and appealing.
>
>> I was using the phone because the bank asked us to try.>
>> So the fact is I see very few people use the phone to pay, and obviously
>> I don't know what app they use - I saw *one* young man yesterday using
>> it. Happened to be a supermarket staff doing a purchase - maybe they
>> have a staff app?
>>
>> Me, I would never use Apple/Google pay and give them even more data;
>> only in case of last resort.
>
> There will be no last resort ...
> Neither Apple nor Google will succeed outside the US

They already have.

> exactely because of the resons you mentioned.
> Most people want to do the business directly
> with their bank and the merchant.

Bullshit.

> Credit card companies and hardware supppliers slow things down

More bullshit, its quicker with apple pay than the bank's app.

> and make it unnecessarily expensive

That’s bullshit too, no extra cost at all.

> and in paritcular they create no added value. Au contraire.

More mindless bullshit, much more
convenient and much more secure.

>> Yes, we use a user to user paying app, here Bizum is very popular. Just
>> not for paying merchants, initially it was not activated, dunno about
>> now.
>>
>> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizum
>>
>>
>>> The next step is to internationalise these types of transactions. Apple
>>> Pay and Google Pay are very old fashioned and cumbersome.
>>
>> Certainly, that's the next step.
>
> I read about this project recently. Perhaps in a year or two?

That’s there now with apple pay and google pay.

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
> Wilf wrote

>> In the UK, there is currently a £45 limit on contactless card
>> transactions. There is no such limit when using Apple Pay contactless
>> transactions.
>
> When that started a couple of years ago the limit in Switzerland was CHF
> 40 per transaction. During the pandemic ist was doubled to CHF 80 which
> is the equivalent of £ 65. Absolutely sufficient for grocery shopping
> and paying the parking fee.

But not for buying a major appliance or even a set of tyres for the car.

> Entering the PIN on a pad is not relevant from a pandemic point of view
> anyway.
>
> And for larger amounts I don't want any device to decide to charge
> without my conscious consent (=PIN).

It doesn’t, you have to use the touch ID or facial
recognition or enter a PIN if you are that dinosauary.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 9/10/2021 6:28 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
> > FWIW, while it's implicity indicated by the (double) quote level, I
> > didn't write this, but sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> did.
>
> My apologies...

No worries. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

On Sep 10, 2021, Joerg Lorenz wrote
> Nobody needs these companies in the financial system.

I wish they would just pick one currency so it would be simpler.
One pay system for everyone's phones makes everything more efficient.
And think of all the plastic and magnetic ore it would save for Earth.

Ron, the humblest guy in town.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rob wrote
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>>> That's another one. No, I was talking of an specific bank app that
>>> replaces the card, and the phone works as if it were the NFC card. Quite
>>> cumbersome.
>>>
>>> 1) Open the phone, identify.
>>> 2) Open the banking app, identify.
>>> 3) Line up to pay at the supermarket. Unload your goods into the
>>> "belt".
>>> 4) The bank app has timed out and closed. Open it up again - and it
>>> takes a few seconds to respond after identification.
>>> 5) People in the line get politely restless.
>>> 6) Fiddle with the cashier machine reading the phone - there is no
>>> marking to say where the antena is in both devices; some times it works,
>>> some times it doesn't; even a machine at the same supermarket will work,
>>> the next will not.
>>> 7) Apologize and use the card.
>>>
>>> I was using the phone because the bank asked us to try.
>>
>> I feel for the horror that you have to go through, but I can only add
>> the datapoint that here in the Netherlands "everyone" uses the bank
>> app on their phone for contactless payment and I rarely see anyone
>> having difficulty with that.
>>
>> Sensible people do not first grab their phone and then load their goods
>> onto the belt. They first have all their goods scanned and they grab
>> and unlock their phone only at the time the cashier is about to announce
>> the total amount and ask for the method of payment. I think that is
>> obvious.
>
> Obviously :-)
>
> But I'm very sensitive to holding the line up while I open the bank app
> and enter the long pin, then wait for the app to connect to the server
> and say "ready". Can be up to a minute,

Because it’s a fucked system.

> thus I do this while waiting in the line.

So your original was a lie.

> Surely that's the fault of this particular bank (I tried two) software
> programmers and server handling, but meanwhile... Maybe the next
> phone will work better. I don't have friends that use the phone to pay,
> can't ask. They also prefer using the card directly for whatever reason.

Because they are dinosaurs.

> That the phone is reluctant to connect to the terminal
> can be the phone fault or the terminal fault, I don't know.

Its obviously the phone at fault when it works fine for others.

> I'm not going to purchase another phone till forced to. I
> fear it would be the same hassle with Apple/Google pay.

It wouldn’t, no farting around logging
on to the app with Apple/Google pay.

> But as Joerg Lorenz say, why put up with another
> intermediary that will gloat with having the data
> of the purchase history of millions of clients?

Apple doesn’t.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> On 10/09/2021 13.36, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 10.09.21 um 11:31 schrieb Andy Burns:
>>> Wilf wrote:
>>>
>>>> In the UK, there is currently a £45 limit on contactless card
>>>> transactions.
>>>
>>> Which will raise to £100 from 15th October.
>>
>> Very good! So there is hope it will go up further here too. CHF 150
>> would cover almost everything in daily life.
>
> I prefer lower...

No need with completely secure apple pay.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> On 10/09/2021 13.34, Chris wrote:
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 09.09.21 um 19:56 schrieb sms:
>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>
>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>
>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>
>>> They have no added value compared to debit- or a credit-card with a chip
>>> and/or NFC-functionality.
>>
>> They allow you to spend more than the £45/€45 contactless limit.
>>
>> Also most people always carry their phone but not necessarily always
>> their
>> wallet so you always have a payment with you.
>
> Non issue for me.
>
> I have forgotten the phone more times than the wallet.
>
> And considering that the wallet also contains the ID card and the
> driving license, and driving without that is a fine, there is barely
> that risk here.

We have digital licenses on the phone and vaccine passports too.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/09/2021 13.34, Chris wrote:
>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>> Am 09.09.21 um 19:56 schrieb sms:
>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>
>>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>>
>>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>
>>>> They have no added value compared to debit- or a credit-card with a
>>>> chip
>>>> and/or NFC-functionality.
>>>
>>> They allow you to spend more than the £45/€45 contactless limit.
>>>
>>> Also most people always carry their phone but not necessarily always
>>> their
>>> wallet so you always have a payment with you.
>>
>> Non issue for me.
>>
>> I have forgotten the phone more times than the wallet.
>>
>> And considering that the wallet also contains the ID card and the
>> driving license, and driving without that is a fine, there is barely
>> that risk here.
>
> The UK doesn't do ID cards and you don't need to have your drivers licence
> on you when driving, so going out with just your phone is not a problem.

We have digital drivers licenses, digital passports and digital vaccination
passports on the phone so the phone can do everything.

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 10.09.21 um 17:29 schrieb AJL:
> > On 9/10/2021 6:27 AM, Mayayana wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not paying some middleman company for the privilege of making a
> >> transaction.
> >
> > Actually you are. EVERYONE, cash or credit, is paying higher product
> > prices so that the stores can still make a profit after paying the
> > credit card companies their merchant fees. So in effect you cash users
> > are helping subsidize us credit card users. Many thanks.
>
> You do not understand modern payment concepts. Credit cards are more
> than less a concept from the 80s of the last century. An efficient
> economy is not willing to pay for nothing in the long run. In Europe
> more and more merchants are not willing to pay the credit card fees any
> more if clients have other options.

Not to mention that often there is a *surcharge* - often several, upto
3, percent - for paying with a credit card. And not just in the_EU/
Europe, for example also in Australia.

With a good/secure debit card system, such as the one we have in
the_EU/Europe, the need for credit card transactions is very low.

For example I only use it to secure a booking or guarantee a bond,
i.e. transactions where only a reservation/guarantee of funds takes
place, without the merchant being actually paid. (And of course for -
mostly foreign - merchants which cannot/do_not accept debit cards, for
example for Singapore Airlines tickets.)

> I already bought luxury goods and got a sizeable discount for not using
> a credit card. We are talking about transactions north of $5K.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rob wrote
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> But as Joerg Lorenz say, why put up with another
>>> intermediary that will gloat with having the data of the purchase
>>> history of millions of clients?
>>
>> Sure. I think "almost nobody" uses those payment services here, that
>> is mostly an American thing. Just like we do not use PayPal.

> Paypal I use :-)

Me too. Much more secure when dealing with
operations that you have never used before.

> But very little,

I use it for almost everything when its available,
but use apple pay instead of it when that is available.
PayPal is more secure if there is any dispute over
what is supplied is what they said they would supply.

> with some internet purchases in which a debit/credit
> card is not an option for something.

And its much safer than giving your card details
to some operation that you know nothing about.

> Perhaps when paying in dollars because the exchange
> is more convenient than what my bank does.

A number of my card don’t charge any currency conversion fee.
I have one of those as my default card on PayPal.

> Not even once a month.

I use it for almost all online transactions unless they charge
me a fee for using PayPal and don’t offer applepay.

I pay for almost everything in person using applepay.
I do still use cash at garage/yard/car boot sales even
tho I can pay those using my phone. Its not worth the
convincing the seller that paying by phone works as
well as cash, most don’t realise that.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
[...]

> In Europe yes, but as I said, in the U.S. it's very rare that you pay in
> a restaurant at your table via a mobile terminal. When you're at a place
> where you pay when you order it's different, and an increasing number of
> moderately priced restaurants are switching to that system because of
> the labor shortage and the cost of labor. It's called "modified self
> serve." You pay when you order and they bring the food to your table, or
> they give you a pager and you come get your food when it's ready.
> Totally eliminates "Dine and Dash" theft, see
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E2dl_RHouI&t=32s>.

Yeah, we've been to those places in Australia (and before that in the
UK), 'counter meal' or something. And now even Maccas is like that (at
least in NL, Germany, Austria), i.e. bringing your meal to your table.

> We rarely go to expensive restaurants, I meed _really_ expensive, but in
> the U.S., restaurant prices in general have greatly increased in the
> past two years, and even a moderate priced restaurant will end up being
> $30-35 per person. And forget about AMEX except at the higher-priced
> places, you'll see a lot of businesses with small signs that say "No
> Amex." Amex might have been a status symbol 40 years ago, but it's
> nothing now.

When we temporarily lived in the US (decades ago), we couldn't pay
anywhere with our (company provided) AMEX card. So we had to go to the
bank and exchange our (Tomas Cook?) travelers cheques (remember those?).
The AMEX card was handy to wipe the rain/snow from the windows of our
rental car! :-)

Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

>> Agreed. Anyone not using mobile wallet, whether Apple Pay, Google
>> Pay, or Samsung Pay, is standing in he way of human progress.

> We're not all paraplegics.

But are dinosaurs instead.

> I find it very convenient to reach into
> my pocket and pull out a wad of bills.

But much less convenient having to get that wad
of bills from the bank and impossible with most
employers now unless you are a drug dealer etc.

> And it's more private.

No one has any record of what I have bought
using applepay and if I want to do a murder
etc I can still use cash.

> And I'm not paying some middleman company
> for the privilege of making a transaction.

I'm not either and am not paying to use an ATM either
and don’t have to fart around finding one to use either.

> Cash is already an abstraction device.

But is much less convenient now and some wont accept
cash anymore too. Have fun renting a car with cash.

> You're adding another superfluous level,

Nothing superfluous about it, its much more convenient
to wave the phone at the terminal than get cash from the
bank or ATM, count out what you need to pay, fart around
with the change etc etc etc.

> creating an extra level of bloodsucking middleman.

Don’t have that. And your bank is that anyway.

> And why? Because you're afraid to carry cash?

Nope, because its much more convenient.

> You'd lose a lot less being robbed of $200
> than being robbed of your iPhone/iWatch.

> What I often see is debit card usage.
> Again, that's a sucker's game.

Nope, its much more convenient than cash.

> Their bank pays a fee

Pays fuck all of a fee in fact. They pay much more
to have the armoured van move cash around and
pay someone to load the ATMs etc.

> because they can't bother to use cash.

Because they have enough of a clue to prefer to not
have to pay the very high cost of moving cash around.

> We all pay for that.

You pay for the cost of moving cash around with
the derisory interest rates your bank pays you.

> (If it weren't for idiots using debit cards, a Starbucks
> coffee could be only $19.22 instead of $19.87. :)

That’s bullshit too, it costs a lot more for Starbucks
to handle cash than the merchant fee with a debit card.

> There are a growing number of places that are
> legislating a requirement to accept cash in the US.

Which means that all consumers get to wear the stupid
cost of dealing with cash and moving it around.

> But some companies are trying to defeat that.
> Whole Foods under Bezos keeps trying various
> tricks. The latest is to bring in self-checkout with no cash
> allowed. ("Because there's a national coin shortage.")

> I'm curious about the numbers with cash back. Last I
> heard, AmEx was charging 4% to merchants and MC/Visa
> were charging 1.2-2%. So 3% cash back doesn't add up.
> Is it only applying to specific purchases? I'm guessing that
> if it's worth their while they must be doing something like
> selling your personal data to make it actually pay off. Maybe
> they have some kind of mutual-parasite arrangement with
> Apple, pooling their tracking data and then selling that
> on to advertisers and data sales companies....

Nope, apple doesn’t do that. They even encrypt apple maps
transactions so even apple cant identify who went where.

> Or maybe they just figured that anyone sucker enough to
> buy an iPhone and iWatch is just by definition a gold mine.

Cant be that either because it applys to cards
alone with no phone or watch involved.

<reams of even sillier stuff flushed where it belongs>

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/09/2021 04.34, Your Name wrote:
>> > On 2021-09-09 18:35:36 +0000, Wilf said:
>> >> On 09/09/2021 at 18:56, sms wrote:
>> >>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>
>>
>> >> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
>> >> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.
>> >
>> > Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
>> > one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use
>> > Apple
>> > / Google Pay in the shops. This week there has been a three-day (so
>> > far)
>> > outage of internet banking for at leat one of the big banks.
>> >
>> > Banks here no longer accept cheques. Even before Covid some places
>> > (such
>> > as buses) were reluctant to accept cash. It really makes you wnoder how
>> > people will be expected to be able to buy anything when there are
>> > infrastructure issues causing these electronic gimmicks become useless.
>>
>> Buses here use preloaded/prepaid specific cards, different one per city.
>
> Here (NL) we have one preloaded/prepaid (can be automatically topped
> up) card for all public transport (bus, tram, metro, train, <whatever>)
> in the whole country.

And the UK which has that too is now finding most prefer to use the phone.

>> At least where I tried. Those are not affected by internet outages.
>
> I assume ours are not affected by mobile/Internet outages, provided
> there's enough credit on the card, but I've not experienced such
> outages, other than that the check-in/check-out machines were out of
> order, in case you travel for free.
>
>> Funnily, in my city we load the card paying the driver with paper money
>> :-D
>
> Ours can be topped up in special machines in many places, but can also
> be topped up automatically if you have an account. We use the latter.
>
>> Phones can not be used - again in the cities I have used their buses.
>
> AFAIK, there's also a mobile app, but I haven't looked into that. (Too
> much of a hassle with - for me - no benefit.) What's bigger/more-akward,
> one or two cards or a smartphone?

That’s a bogus question when most choose to have the phone for other
reasons.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 19.29, Savageduck wrote:
> > On Sep 10, 2021, Joerg Lorenz wrote
> > (in article <shg0rv$dkd$2@dont-email.me>):
> >
> >> Am 10.09.21 um 15:03 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
> >>> On 10/09/2021 14.47, Rob wrote:
> >>>> Carlos E. R.<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>> But as Joerg Lorenz say, why put up with another
> >>>>> intermediary that will gloat with having the data of the purchase
> >>>>> history of millions of clients?
> >>>>
> >>>> Sure. I think "almost nobody" uses those payment services here, that
> >>>> is mostly an American thing. Just like we do not use PayPal.
> >>>
> >>> Paypal I use :-)
> >>
> >> Me too. But that is seldom and only with Asian counterparts and only if
> >> absolutely necessary.
> >>
> >>> But very little, with some internet purchases in which a debit/credit
> >>> card is not an option for something. Perhaps when paying in dollars
> >>> because the exchange is more convenient than what my bank does. Not even
> >>> once a month.
> >>
> >> Same here.
> >
> > I use PayPal for making transfers to known bank accounts, domestic, and foreign as their rates are far lower than the banks charge. I also use PayPal for some online purchases.
> >
>
> That's curious. Inside the same country at least, bank transfers are
> free in Spain when ordered via internet - depends on the bank? Probably
> the same thing with banks in another country but in the European Union,
> but I will not vouch for it.

I was about to say the same.

Basically you can't compare the European/EU payment systems with those
of the US. The US is way behind, sometimes decades ('checks' anyone?),
and is not really catching on.

And, as Rob also mentions, bank transfers are free in NL for the whole
EU and probably the other EU countries have the same rules. (AFAIK, in
the EU, banks are not allowed to charge either party for within-EU
transfers.)

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/09/2021 13.36, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> > Am 10.09.21 um 11:31 schrieb Andy Burns:
>> >> Wilf wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> In the UK, there is currently a £45 limit on contactless card
>> >>> transactions.
>> >>
>> >> Which will raise to £100 from 15th October.
>> >
>> > Very good! So there is hope it will go up further here too. CHF 150
>> > would cover almost everything in daily life.
>>
>> I prefer lower...
>
> Well, with less than 150 Swiss Francs you can't buy anything! :-)
> (Just kidding.)
>
> Here (NL) the limit is settable, The default was EUR 25 and was raised
> to EUR 50 during the pandemic. EUR 50 is fine by me ... ummm ... I mean
> for SWMBO! :-)

No limit at all is much more convenient when its as secure as apple pay.

The problem with any limit is that when you don't use the pin
most of the time. its harder to remember it when it is needed.

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
> sms wrote
>> Wilf wrote

>>> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient
>>> to use ... on public transport systems here in London too.

>> Agreed. Anyone not using mobile wallet, whether Apple Pay, Google
>> Pay, or Samsung Pay, is standing in he way of human progress.

Not really, just not using it themselves.

> Are you getting progressively braindead? We are used
> to the fact that you produce bullshit all day long.

> Nobody needs these companies in the financial system.
> They do not add value at all,

That’s wrong, apple pay is vastly more secure than contactless
cards and much more convenient than having to insert the
card in the terminal and supply a 4 digit PIN.

> they just increase cost.

They don’t do that either and cash costs much more to process.

> They simply try to get some of
> the crumbs falling from the table.

In fact they provide a vastly more secure and convenient system.

> I hope you are still able to rethink how you define "human progress".

You clearly can't.

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
> Chris wrote

>> Cash is outdated.
> Cash is king! That will never change.

It has already, hardly any employers will pay you cash
anymore and almost no govts make cash welfare
payments anymore. Have fun renting a car with cash now.
You cant even buy a new car for cash here anymore.

Still works with your drug dealer tho.