On 9/10/2021 6:27 AM, Mayayana wrote:

> I'm not paying some middleman company for the privilege of making a
> transaction.

Actually you are. EVERYONE, cash or credit, is paying higher product
prices so that the stores can still make a profit after paying the
credit card companies their merchant fees. So in effect you cash users
are helping subsidize us credit card users. Many thanks.

> you're afraid to carry cash?

I always carry $100 US cash in case the registers are down for credit cards.

> You'd lose a lot less being robbed of $200 than being robbed of your
> iPhone/iWatch.

In my town they'd take it all...

On 9/10/2021 6:28 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> FWIW, while it's implicity indicated by the (double) quote level, I
> didn't write this, but sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> did.

My apologies...

On 9/10/2021 7:03 AM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

> Cash is outdated.
>
> You're essentially manually moving your money from your account via an
> ATM to your pocket. Then when you buy something you hand the cash to the
> merchant, they put it in their till, and then at the end of the day/week
> have to carry it to their bank to deposit into their account.
>
> Digital paymants are direct from your account to their account.
>
> Without cash, businesses don't have to worry about theft or fraud.

One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash which has
benefits that go beyond just the health benefits. Many businesses have
made it more difficult to use cash and some have stopped accepting it
altogether. Despite the high fees that credit card issuers in the U.S.
charge, it is still generally less expensive for the business to take
credit cards than it is to take cash when you factor in labor costs,
theft, counterfeit bills, etc.. And as you point out, debit card users
are the people that lose out, in multiple ways.

The key to increasing the usage of Apple Pay, Google Pay, and Samsung
Pay, in the U.S. is for there to be a clear financial benefit for doing
so. A contactless card is nearly as convenient, sometimes more
convenient, depending on which phone you’re using for mobile wallet.

Nearly every new credit card issued in the U.S. is contactless, the only
card that I’m aware of that is not yet contactless is the Apple
Mastercard (it’s costlier to fabricate a metal card that is contactless,
but other metal cards are contactless to it’s not impossible). The Apple
Card is not contactless for another reason, they want you to use your
iPhone or Apple Watch to pay with the Apple Card by making it less
convenient to use the physical card.

There are a few credit cards with higher cash-back rewards for
mobile-wallet purchases.

The Apple Mastercard pays 2% for mobile wallet versus 1% for
card-present, as does the REI Mastercard, but there are other
no-annual-fee cards that pay 2% even on card-present purchases. The
issue with Mastercard is that it is not accepted at as many places as
Visa with Costco being the biggie. Approximately 29% of adult Americans
are Costco members, do a large percentage of their shopping there, and
can't use Mastercard, or contactless payment tied to a Mastercard. At
one time, Costco in the U.S. only took Discover, and at one time they
took only American Express.

The U.S. Bank Altitude Reserve Visa pays 3% on mobile wallet purchases
versus 1% for card-present but has a net annual fee of $75 (after the
$325 annual credit for hotels, restaurants, airline tickets, etc.) so
unless you spend enough money, or take advantage of the other perks
(airport lounge access (or free meals at airports), Global Entry
reimbursement, primary rental car coverage, etc.), it’s not worth it.

It’s not a huge amount of money per year that you can gain through the
use of mobile wallet, but wouldn’t you rather have that extra few
hundred dollars or so each year than the bank having it? It doesn’t
require any extra effort.

I’m not sure what the upside is for the bank to pay a higher cash-back
amount for mobile wallet. Maybe they figure that some people will spend
more if they use mobile wallet and then not pay off their balance each
month.

Currently, in the U.S. 33.7% of credit cards are paid in full each
month, 40.7% carry a balance, and 25.6% are dormant. But the number of
people carrying a balance is hit a record low, while the number of
credit card transactions hit a record high.

Am 09.09.21 um 20:50 schrieb sms:
> On 9/9/2021 11:35 AM, Wilf wrote:
>> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
>> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.
>
> Agreed. Anyone not using mobile wallet, whether Apple Pay, Google Pay,
> or Samsung Pay, is standing in he way of human progress.

Are you getting progressively braindead? We are used to the fact that
you produce bullshit all day long.

Nobody needs these companies in the financial system. They do not add
value at all, they just increase cost. They simply try to get some of
the crumbs falling from the table.

I hope you are still able to rethink how you define "human progress".

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 10.09.21 um 15:27 schrieb Mayayana:
> "sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>
> | Agreed. Anyone not using mobile wallet, whether Apple Pay, Google Pay,
> | or Samsung Pay, is standing in he way of human progress.
> |
>
> We're not all paraplegics. I find it very convenient to
> reach into my pocket and pull out a wad of bills. And it's
> more private. And I'm not paying some middleman
> company for the privilege of making a transaction. Cash

Bingo! That is exactly the reason why these companies will never have a
meaningful role in financial transactions.

I do not want to share anything with them in this domain. Never!

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 10.09.21 um 16:03 schrieb Chris:
> Cash is outdated.

Cash is king! That will never change.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 10.09.21 um 17:29 schrieb AJL:
> On 9/10/2021 6:27 AM, Mayayana wrote:
>
>> I'm not paying some middleman company for the privilege of making a
>> transaction.
>
> Actually you are. EVERYONE, cash or credit, is paying higher product
> prices so that the stores can still make a profit after paying the
> credit card companies their merchant fees. So in effect you cash users
> are helping subsidize us credit card users. Many thanks.

You do not understand modern payment concepts. Credit cards are more
than less a concept from the 80s of the last century. An efficient
economy is not willing to pay for nothing in the long run. In Europe
more and more merchants are not willing to pay the credit card fees any
more if clients have other options.

I already bought luxury goods and got a sizeable discount for not using
a credit card. We are talking about transactions north of $5K.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 10.09.21 um 13:51 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
> On 10/09/2021 13.34, Chris wrote:
>> Also most people always carry their phone but not necessarily always their
>> wallet so you always have a payment with you.

It is exactly vice versa.

> Non issue for me.
>
> I have forgotten the phone more times than the wallet.

+1

> And considering that the wallet also contains the ID card and the
> driving license, and driving without that is a fine, there is barely
> that risk here.

You name it. All relevant documents are in my wallet and not on my
phone. If you drive without the licence on you you have to pay a fine in
Europe. Same with ID-card.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

In article <shfoj8$ddf$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Without cash, businesses don't have to worry about theft or fraud.

they do when someone uses a stolen card.

ultimately, the bank is liable, but that can take a while, unless they
aren't emv-compliant which puts the liability on the merchant.

In article <shfvea$u3t$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash which has
> benefits that go beyond just the health benefits. Many businesses have
> made it more difficult to use cash and some have stopped accepting it
> altogether.

such as which ones? or is this another made up claim?

>
> Nearly every new credit card issued in the U.S. is contactless, the only
> card that I¹m aware of that is not yet contactless is the Apple
> Mastercard (it¹s costlier to fabricate a metal card that is contactless,
> but other metal cards are contactless to it¹s not impossible).

nearly all 'metal' cards are not entirely metal. they are a laminate
with a metal core that has a cutout for the antenna.

completely metal cards, such as the apple card and amex centurion,
can't be contactless, for obvious reasons.

> The Apple
> Card is not contactless for another reason, they want you to use your
> iPhone or Apple Watch to pay with the Apple Card by making it less
> convenient to use the physical card.

not quite. the physical apple card is *optional* for those who need it.
many people don't bother.

since apple pay is contactless, there is no need for the card to also
be contactless, which it can't be anyway since the card is completely
metal (not a laminate).

Am 10.09.21 um 15:03 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
> On 10/09/2021 14.47, Rob wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> But as Joerg Lorenz say, why put up with another
>>> intermediary that will gloat with having the data of the purchase
>>> history of millions of clients?
>>
>> Sure. I think "almost nobody" uses those payment services here, that
>> is mostly an American thing. Just like we do not use PayPal.
>>
>
> Paypal I use :-)

Me too. But that is seldom and only with Asian counterparts and only if
absolutely necessary.

> But very little, with some internet purchases in which a debit/credit
> card is not an option for something. Perhaps when paying in dollars
> because the exchange is more convenient than what my bank does. Not even
> once a month.

Same here.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

On 10/09/2021 15.34, Mayayana wrote:
> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote
>
> | > Still more convenient to wave the phone at it.
> |
> | I still have to dig either one out of a pocket to wave it. YMMV...
> |
>
> I happen to have some amazing arthritis cream that I
> think both of you will want. Rub it on twice a day and
> you'll be able to wave a phone OR a card. After two weeks
> you'll be able to pick up a fork! Money back guarantee!
> But wait! There's more! Does your wife complain that
> your shriveled fingers feel like sandpaper? Order now and
> you get a free trial bottle of Slick 'n Hot (R) cream. The
> special combination of silicone and oil of wintergreen will
> have her purring and pouring your Ensure for you!
>
> Now, if you'll just give me your credit card numbers...
> You can also send cash.

:-DDD

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Sep 10, 2021, Rob wrote
(in article <slrnsjmlaj.k1u.nomail@xs9.xs4all.nl>):

> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> > Neither Apple nor Google will succeed outside the US exactely because of
> > the resons you mentioned. Most people want to do the business directly
> > with their bank and the merchant. Credit card companies and hardware
> > supppliers slow things down and make it unnecessarily expensive and in
> > paritcular they create no added value. Au contraire.
>
> Well, actually here (Netherlands) you would not do business directly
> with the merchant in this case. The payment terminals communicate with
> a local payment provider (a company with status similar to a bank) which
> processes your payment and communicates with your bank. The merchant
> only gets the total paid amount for that day, not the transaction
> details of your transaction. So they have no way to track you based
> on your transaction and details they may get from the payment (like
> your account number or card number). And the bank gets only the payment
> requests from the payment provider and have no way to link that to your
> particular purchase.
> So privacy is actually quite good in this case. Nobody gets the
> information to track your purchases, unless you provide the merchant with
> other identifying information (like a shop discount card).

As an American traveling in the Netherlands I have had no issues using ApplePay, and/or Amex at Schiphol, or in Amsterdam.

--
Regards,
Savageduck

On 9/10/2021 8:29 AM, AJL wrote:
> On 9/10/2021 6:27 AM, Mayayana wrote:
>
>> I'm not paying some middleman company for the privilege of making a
>> transaction.
>
> Actually you are. EVERYONE, cash or credit, is paying higher product
> prices so that the stores can still make a profit after paying the
> credit card companies their merchant fees. So in effect you cash users
> are helping subsidize us credit card users. Many thanks.

The cost of accepting cash is likely much higher than what the store is
paying in merchant fees, when you take into account all the expenses.
See
<https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-from-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%E2%80%99-Cash-handling-Costs-Range-from-4.7-to-15.3-Depending-on-Retail-Segment>.

And of course, besides the cost, there are other disadvantages to the
business not taking credit cards, especially in terms of how much
customers spend.

A business might see an advantage in taking only debit cards, and a few
stores do this, and some used to do it. In my area, the least expensive
pet store chain used to only take debit cards but changed that policy. A
very good, low-cost supermarket chain, WinCo, still doesn't take credit
cards <https://www.wincofoods.com/customer-service/faqs/#creditcards>.
Both of these stores have prices that are significantly lower than their
competitors, and are "destination stores."

The bottom line is that credit card users, despite paying a net lower
cost for things, are still subsidizing cash users. Cash users are an
annoyance to the cashier as well as to other customers because they
significantly slow down the checkout line. Fortunately, most
self-checkout lines don't take cash. Many stores now have signs up
asking customers to not use cash, which is a change from the time that
they used to have signs up requesting cash.

The places that still want cash are businesses that have another reason
for preferring cash, unrelated to credit card fees, and those reasons
hurt everyone else as well.

On 9/9/2021 12:54 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> As far as Europe is concerned: That was your experience as a
> *visitor*. For locals, (Apple/Google/Samsung) mobile wallet payment is a
> minority, because we already had pay-by-phone before Apple/Google/Samsung
> came to Europe. Of course *merchants* will *accept* as many payment
> methods as is possible/feasible without too much cost (for them).
>
> For most Europeans, Apple/Google/Samsung Pay is a solution waiting for
> a problem. *Some* might use it, because they travel outside Europe, or
> want to be 'flash' (I.e. like having an AMEX CC in the old days. :-)).

Yeah, all I saw was that nearly everyone was paying with their phone, I
have no idea if they were using Apple/Google/Samsung Pay tied to a
credit, or some other system that was tied directly to their bank
account. As a tourist, I was using Google Pay. There was one place in
Germany and one place in Austria that were cash only. Even the pay
toilets in Germany and Italy took mobile payments.

>> One annoying thing in the U.S. is that using mobile wallet in a sit-down
>> restaurant it is often not easy since unlike in Europe they generally
>> don't bring a mobile terminal to your table.
>
> You've been to too expensive restaurants (see AMEX CC above)! :-) In
> normal restaurants, mobile terminals are quite common. Used one just
> yesterday.

In Europe yes, but as I said, in the U.S. it's very rare that you pay in
a restaurant at your table via a mobile terminal. When you're at a place
where you pay when you order it's different, and an increasing number of
moderately priced restaurants are switching to that system because of
the labor shortage and the cost of labor. It's called "modified self
serve." You pay when you order and they bring the food to your table, or
they give you a pager and you come get your food when it's ready.
Totally eliminates "Dine and Dash" theft, see
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E2dl_RHouI&t=32s>.

We rarely go to expensive restaurants, I meed _really_ expensive, but in
the U.S., restaurant prices in general have greatly increased in the
past two years, and even a moderate priced restaurant will end up being
$30-35 per person. And forget about AMEX except at the higher-priced
places, you'll see a lot of businesses with small signs that say "No
Amex." Amex might have been a status symbol 40 years ago, but it's
nothing now.

On Sep 10, 2021, Joerg Lorenz wrote
(in article <shg0rv$dkd$2@dont-email.me>):

> Am 10.09.21 um 15:03 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
> > On 10/09/2021 14.47, Rob wrote:
> > > Carlos E. R.<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> > > > But as Joerg Lorenz say, why put up with another
> > > > intermediary that will gloat with having the data of the purchase
> > > > history of millions of clients?
> > >
> > > Sure. I think "almost nobody" uses those payment services here, that
> > > is mostly an American thing. Just like we do not use PayPal.
> >
> > Paypal I use :-)
>
> Me too. But that is seldom and only with Asian counterparts and only if
> absolutely necessary.
>
> > But very little, with some internet purchases in which a debit/credit
> > card is not an option for something. Perhaps when paying in dollars
> > because the exchange is more convenient than what my bank does. Not even
> > once a month.
>
> Same here.

I use PayPal for making transfers to known bank accounts, domestic, and foreign as their rates are far lower than the banks charge. I also use PayPal for some online purchases.

--
Regards,
Savageduck

In article <shg4bb$hoh$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> And forget about AMEX except at the higher-priced
> places, you'll see a lot of businesses with small signs that say "No
> Amex."

very few say that, including the cheap places.

> Amex might have been a status symbol 40 years ago, but it's
> nothing now.

that depends on which amex card. the amex centurion is invite only.

On 10/09/2021 16.20, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/09/2021 04.34, Your Name wrote:
>>> On 2021-09-09 18:35:36 +0000, Wilf said:
>>>> On 09/09/2021 at 18:56, sms wrote:
>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>
>>
>>>> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
>>>> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.
>>>
>>> Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
>>> one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use Apple
>>> / Google Pay in the shops. This week there has been a three-day (so far)
>>> outage of internet banking for at leat one of the big banks.
>>>
>>> Banks here no longer accept cheques. Even before Covid some places (such
>>> as buses) were reluctant to accept cash. It really makes you wnoder how
>>> people will be expected to be able to buy anything when there are
>>> infrastructure issues causing these electronic gimmicks become useless.
>>
>> Buses here use preloaded/prepaid specific cards, different one per city.
>
> Here (NL) we have one preloaded/prepaid (can be automatically topped
> up) card for all public transport (bus, tram, metro, train, <whatever>)
> in the whole country.
>
>> At least where I tried. Those are not affected by internet outages.
>
> I assume ours are not affected by mobile/Internet outages, provided
> there's enough credit on the card, but I've not experienced such
> outages, other than that the check-in/check-out machines were out of
> order, in case you travel for free.
>
>> Funnily, in my city we load the card paying the driver with paper money :-D
>
> Ours can be topped up in special machines in many places, but can also
> be topped up automatically if you have an account. We use the latter.
>
>> Phones can not be used - again in the cities I have used their buses.
>
> AFAIK, there's also a mobile app, but I haven't looked into that. (Too
> much of a hassle with - for me - no benefit.) What's bigger/more-akward,
> one or two cards or a smartphone?
>

In the situation where each city uses a different card, having a method
with the phone would be convenient when hitting a different city -
provided the app is a single one or two for every city.

There is another app for paying the parking machines on the street
(those that have a two hour limit or so), and the app is common for
several cities. But this is because those cities hired the same company
to do the servicing. The app has to be preloaded with money.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/09/2021 18.21, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 10.09.21 um 13:51 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>> On 10/09/2021 13.34, Chris wrote:
>>> Also most people always carry their phone but not necessarily always their
>>> wallet so you always have a payment with you.
>
> It is exactly vice versa.
>
>> Non issue for me.
>>
>> I have forgotten the phone more times than the wallet.
>
> +1
>
>> And considering that the wallet also contains the ID card and the
>> driving license, and driving without that is a fine, there is barely
>> that risk here.
>
> You name it. All relevant documents are in my wallet and not on my
> phone. If you drive without the licence on you you have to pay a fine in
> Europe. Same with ID-card.
>

Although this is an obsolete law that should be removed. The police are,
anyway, going to check your documentation online to verify their
validity, so why having to carry them at all? Just ask for the ID number
and look it up online.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/10/2021 9:17 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 10.09.21 um 17:29 schrieb AJL:

>> EVERYONE, cash or credit, is paying higher product prices so that
>> the stores can still make a profit after paying the credit card
>> companies their merchant fees. So in effect you cash users are
>> helping subsidize us credit card users. Many thanks.

> You do not understand modern payment concepts. Credit cards are more
> than less a concept from the 80s of the last century. An efficient
> economy is not willing to pay for nothing in the long run.

I don't worry about the big picture economy since I can't change
anything anyway. I just do what's best for my personal economy.

> In Europe more and more merchants are not willing to pay the credit
> card fees any more if clients have other options.

Fortunately (for me) that's not the case here. I'm not aware of any
stores in my area that don't take credit cards. My credit card gives me
near $1000 US a year cashback. That's money I wouldn't have if I paid
cash.

> I already bought luxury goods and got a sizeable discount for not
> using a credit card. We are talking about transactions north of $5K.

The biggest purchase I've made on my credit card so far was $13K US. The
price was the same no matter the form of payment. So perhaps my cashback
was a form of discount?

BTW I never keep a balance. Keeping a balance would negate the cashback
benefit big time. So perhaps using cash or debit is best for the weak
willed...

On 10/09/2021 19.29, Savageduck wrote:
> On Sep 10, 2021, Joerg Lorenz wrote
> (in article <shg0rv$dkd$2@dont-email.me>):
>
>> Am 10.09.21 um 15:03 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>> On 10/09/2021 14.47, Rob wrote:
>>>> Carlos E. R.<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> But as Joerg Lorenz say, why put up with another
>>>>> intermediary that will gloat with having the data of the purchase
>>>>> history of millions of clients?
>>>>
>>>> Sure. I think "almost nobody" uses those payment services here, that
>>>> is mostly an American thing. Just like we do not use PayPal.
>>>
>>> Paypal I use :-)
>>
>> Me too. But that is seldom and only with Asian counterparts and only if
>> absolutely necessary.
>>
>>> But very little, with some internet purchases in which a debit/credit
>>> card is not an option for something. Perhaps when paying in dollars
>>> because the exchange is more convenient than what my bank does. Not even
>>> once a month.
>>
>> Same here.
>
> I use PayPal for making transfers to known bank accounts, domestic, and foreign as their rates are far lower than the banks charge. I also use PayPal for some online purchases.
>

That's curious. Inside the same country at least, bank transfers are
free in Spain when ordered via internet - depends on the bank? Probably
the same thing with banks in another country but in the European Union,
but I will not vouch for it.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

| One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash which has
| benefits that go beyond just the health benefits.

So now you're catching disease from dollar bils? I'll be
happy to hold them for you.

| Despite the high fees that credit card issuers in the U.S.
| charge, it is still generally less expensive for the business to take
| credit cards than it is to take cash when you factor in labor costs,
| theft, counterfeit bills, etc..

The only places I know of that don't want cash are
restaurants in NYC, afraid of being robbed. I know
of a local deli that takes only cash or Venmo. Odd.
I don't even know what Venmo is. I assume it has to
do with lower fees.

| And as you point out, debit card users
| are the people that lose out, in multiple ways.
|

They actually have a lot less protection than credit cards,
which many people don't know. And commercial debit
cards generally have no protection.

| The key to increasing the usage of Apple Pay, Google Pay, and Samsung
| Pay, in the U.S. is for there to be a clear financial benefit for doing
| so. A contactless card is nearly as convenient, sometimes more
| convenient, depending on which phone you’re using for mobile wallet.
|

I've been avoiding anything contact-less. I figure it's
only a matter of time before that's hacked. And I have
a sheet of aluminum wrapping my CCs in my wallet.
Actually it's just a piece of roof flashing folded in half, but
it does the trick.

| Nearly every new credit card issued in the U.S. is contactless, the only
| card that I’m aware of that is not yet contactless is the Apple
| Mastercard

I have B of A, a small bank Visa, and Barclays. None are
contactless. It seems that just accepting chipped cards is fairly
recent. (All of my cards have chips.)

|
| The U.S. Bank Altitude Reserve Visa pays 3% on mobile wallet purchases
| versus 1% for card-present

Interesting. They must be trying to push for the tech
companies to do the dirty work.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

|
| Paypal I use :-)
|

That's an interesting one. In their early days they were
trying to get shareware authors onboard. But they required
that the author let them control the bank account for payment
deposits. There were horror stories of people having their
account locked indefinitely by PayPal due to customer
complaints, etc. So I made a point of never dealing with them
in any capacity.

To some extent I guess that's the cost of business online.
You need a service to handle payments, and those services
want to keep the customer happy. So they'll bend over
backward and sacrifice the merchant. But they still take
their cut, even if they refund to the customer.

On 9/10/2021 5:22 AM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

>> And considering that the wallet also contains the ID card and the
>> driving license, and driving without that is a fine, there is barely
>> that risk here.
>
> The UK doesn't do ID cards and you don't need to have your drivers licence
> on you when driving, so going out with just your phone is not a problem.

Apple just recently announced that several states in the U.S. will allow
digital driver's licenses to be stored in the Apple Wallet, see
<https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first-states-to-adopt-drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-wallet/>.

When I was in China in 2019 my friend that lives in Shanghai told me
that almost no one carries a wallet anymore. Everything you need is on
your phone. Transit cards, paying for everything, ID. Cash usage is rare.

If I'm not driving somewhere then I can leave my wallet at home.
Actually for bicycling it sometimes helps to have some cash. If your
tire gets a hole in it then you can use paper money as a temporary fix,
see: <https://cyclingskills.blogspot.com/2008/07/dollar-bill-trick.html>.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 19.29, Savageduck wrote:
>> On Sep 10, 2021, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>> (in article <shg0rv$dkd$2@dont-email.me>):
>>
>>> Am 10.09.21 um 15:03 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>>> On 10/09/2021 14.47, Rob wrote:
>>>>> Carlos E. R.<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> But as Joerg Lorenz say, why put up with another
>>>>>> intermediary that will gloat with having the data of the purchase
>>>>>> history of millions of clients?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure. I think "almost nobody" uses those payment services here, that
>>>>> is mostly an American thing. Just like we do not use PayPal.
>>>>
>>>> Paypal I use :-)
>>>
>>> Me too. But that is seldom and only with Asian counterparts and only if
>>> absolutely necessary.
>>>
>>>> But very little, with some internet purchases in which a debit/credit
>>>> card is not an option for something. Perhaps when paying in dollars
>>>> because the exchange is more convenient than what my bank does. Not even
>>>> once a month.
>>>
>>> Same here.
>>
>> I use PayPal for making transfers to known bank accounts, domestic, and foreign as their rates are far lower than the banks charge. I also use PayPal for some online purchases.
>>
>
> That's curious. Inside the same country at least, bank transfers are
> free in Spain when ordered via internet - depends on the bank? Probably
> the same thing with banks in another country but in the European Union,
> but I will not vouch for it.

For me in the Netherlands, bank transfers are free in the entire EU.