On 9/10/2021 1:51 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 22.13, nospam wrote:

<snip>

>> his baseless claim was that the pandemic caused some businesses to
>> forego cash. there is *zero* evidence of that.
>
> It is a fact here. Not forego completely, that would be illegal, but
> strongly recommending to use the contactless card, yes. So much so that
> places that before did not want to use cards, switched to using them
> most of the time.

nospam is wrong of course™.

In the U.S., while many businesses have stopped accepting cash entirely,
many more are discouraging the use of cash in multiple ways.

First, they put up signs requesting that customers pay electronically
and not use cash, see
<2147483647/strip/true/crop/3600x2350+0+0/resize/840x548!/format/webp/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Ffd%2Ffe%2Fd8f3699a4095bc9d4e39e259fdf5%2Fap-19122830367921.jpg>.

Second, they set up self-checkout lines that don't take cash and are
invariably much shorter than the checkout lines with clerks. See
<https://i.cbc.ca/1.4899853.1552670871!/fileImage/httpImage/image.JPG_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/walmart-canada-self-checkout.JPG>.

Third, at fast-food restaurants, they will have a bunch of kiosks for
ordering, or customers will order through an app, while cash customers
have to stand in a line with one clerk that is able to take orders and
accept cash. Costco food court is like this now, see
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0SuRW3VYAA5dwf?format=jpg&name=medium>.

Fourth, they offer promotions that are only valid for online ordering
which must be paid in advance with a credit or debit card. A pizza place
near me routinely offers discounts up to 25% off for online ordering,
but if you go into the restaurant to order and pay there are no
discounts that high (sometimes they send out paper coupons, but not very
often).

Even post pandemic, some of the businesses that went cashless have said
that they will continue with that model, see
<https://www.marketplace.org/2021/05/21/many-businesses-may-keep-the-cash-free-model-they-started-in-the-pandemic/>.

Also see:
<https://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/05/12/as-more-california-businesses-go-cashless-during-pandemic-lawmaker-continues-push-to-ban-the-practice/>
<https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/29/consumers-abandon-cash-altogether-because-of-covid.html>
<https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/greater-la/contactless-transactions-israel-gaza/cash-free-payments-covid>

It's actually not legal to refuse cash as payment for goods or services
that you already received, like a restaurant meal where you pay when
you're done. But for many transactions, you pay before you receive the
goods or services, and unless there is a local law that requires
accepting cash, businesses can refuse to deal with cash. Airlines long
ago stopped accepting cash payment for beverages, food, Wi-Fi, and
entertainment, if you can't pay with a credit, debit, or mobile wallet
then you're out of luck.

Some places have installed machines that dispense temporary debit cards
in exchange for cash, kind of a reverse ATM, but they charge hefty fees
for this service <https://readycreditcorp.com/products>, and of course
you can also use cash to purchase a prepaid debit card at a lot of stores.

Hopefully, the proliferation of cashless businesses will encourage
"unbanked" individuals to open bank or credit union accounts. There is
no shortage of banks and credit unions that offer accounts with no
minimum balance and no monthly fees. This would also hurt the predatory
check cashing industry which, in California, can charge up to a 3.5%
commission, to those individuals that can least afford to give up such a
high percentage of their money.

On 11/09/2021 00.18, AJL wrote:
> On 9/10/2021 12:43 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>> Basically you can't compare the European/EU payment systems with
>> those of the US. The US is way behind, sometimes decades ('checks'
>> anyone?), and is not really catching on.
>
> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money to an
> individual without needing to know anything but his name. No app info
> required. For example I generally mail checks in birthday cards to
> grandkids around the country because it's safer than mailing cash and I
> know that they got them when the check clears.

That would backfire here.

Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank account to
cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the kid can not
withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of age. No exceptions.

An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high fee.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/09/2021 00.50, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2021-09-10 07:33, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> Entering the PIN on a pad is not relevant from a pandemic point of view
>> anyway.
>
>
> Yes it is. Just because the virus renmains viable after being expelled
> and the droplet evaporating (leving virus in air) doees not reduce the
> risk of catching it via touching surfaces.
>
> It is because people were conditioned to be careful about surfaces that
> the trasnmission was reduced, but it doesn't mean that it isn't a potent
> vector for transmission if people drop their guard.

Studies have since demonstrated that the risk of infection that way is
negligible, inexistent.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/10/2021 3:09 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2021-09-09 23:27, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> But applepay works much better because you
>> just wave the phone at the terminal and its done.
>
> On 6s with TouchID yes. Not with FaceID phones.
>
> double click power button to activate Apple Pay, wait for FaceID to time
> out (since you are wearing mask in shops), then press "use passkey",
> then enter PIN, and then you can wave phone at POS.
>
> Much simpler to just take card out and wave it at POS terminal.

True, but if you have a credit card that gives you higher cash back for
mobile wallet, you'll probably endure the hassle of FaceID for 2x or 3x
cash back.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
> Frank Slootweg wrote

>> Basically you can't compare the European/EU payment systems with those of
>> the US. The US is way behind, sometimes decades ('checks' anyone?), and
>> is not really catching on.

> I still find checks very handy.

I find them a complete pain in the arse. Much easier to
use paypal or the instant electronic transfer on the phone.

> It's an easy way to transfer money to an individual without needing to
> know anything but his name.

All you need with paypal is his email address
and with the instant electronic transfer, either
that or his mobile/cellphone number.

> No app info required.

None with either of what I use.

> For example I generally mail checks in birthday cards to
> grandkids around the country because it's safer than mailing cash and I
> know that they got them when the check clears.

You get both with paypal and the electronic transfer and its instant.

And the parents don’t have to do anything.

> I put a check in a wedding card and lay it on the unguarded gift table -
> same reasons.

All you need is their number which you likely have anyway.

> I leave a check for the yard guy under the mat. Since everybody knows the
> system how long do you think cash would last there?

Cash isn't the only alternative. I pay the yard man electronically.

> Etc etc. And I occasionally even get a check in the mail myself which I
> can easily cash using just my phone, no bank trip required.

Electronic transfer is still much more convenient.

> So in some ways I kinda like still being a dinosaur...

I don’t even tho a few still prefer to hand me cash.
Pain in the arse given I don’t use it anymore.

On 2021-09-10 13:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> In the situation where each city uses a different card, having a method
> with the phone would be convenient when hitting a different city -
> provided the app is a single one or two for every city.

Transit is very hard. Consider that when paying with credit card, the
turnstyle register your crediut card, gets authentication for default
amount. Registers you leaving system. Then does the sale until end of
day, and then calculates what you should be billed (zingle passage,
multiple indivcidual passages, day pass etc). Then, at end of week, if
you have continued to use it, they will bill difference between whatever
you paid on first day to a week pass, and at end of month, bill the
difference between what you already paid and a monthy pass.

It is much easier to either use the transit card, or the credit card.
(and transit cards can either store "trips" or just store monetary value
but with ability to add a pass).

Each city is different.

However, in Ontario Canada, a transkit organisation called Metrolinx
provides the card, payment terminals as well as the systems on buses and
turnstyles in subway. Metrolinx takes a cut of transactions, and then
pays the transit authority.

So I can put $20 on my Presto card and take a couple of single trips in
Ottawa, and the next day, use the card in Toronto. (bit not sure how
passes work and if they "travel" between cities).

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
>>> Wilf wrote
>>
>>>> In the UK, there is currently a £45 limit on contactless card
>>>> transactions. There is no such limit when using Apple Pay contactless
>>>> transactions.
>>>
>>> When that started a couple of years ago the limit in Switzerland was CHF
>>> 40 per transaction. During the pandemic ist was doubled to CHF 80 which
>>> is the equivalent of £ 65. Absolutely sufficient for grocery shopping
>>> and paying the parking fee.
>>
>> But not for buying a major appliance or even a set of tyres for the car.
>
> I have no problem remembering the pin

Because you have to do it all the time.

> or typing it in an instant. In fact, I prefer this.

Yes, you actually are that stupid. Much more
convenient to use your fingerprint and vastly
more secure.

>>
>>> Entering the PIN on a pad is not relevant from a pandemic point of view
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> And for larger amounts I don't want any device to decide to charge
>>> without my conscious consent (=PIN).
>>
>> It doesn’t, you have to use the touch ID or facial
>> recognition or enter a PIN if you are that dinosauary.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>> Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>> Am 09.09.21 um 22:30 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>>>> On 09/09/2021 19.56, sms wrote:
>>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than
>>>>>> iOS
>>>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>>>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>>>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been
>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>>>>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>>>>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>>>>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is
>>>>> simply
>>>>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>>>>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>>>>
>>>> That is what I called an electronic cash transaction. In Europe they
>>>> are
>>>> the real growth area. In Switzerland they call it "Twint". Even
>>>> P2P-Transactions are possible. Thats the way we clear money issues in
>>>> the wider family.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.twint.ch/en/
>>>
>>> That's another one. No, I was talking of an specific bank app that
>>> replaces the card, and the phone works as if it were the NFC card. Quite
>>> cumbersome.
>>
>>> 1) Open the phone, identify.
>>> 2) Open the banking app, identify.
>>> 3) Line up to pay at the supermarket. Unload your goods into the "belt".
>>> 4) The bank app has timed out and closed. Open it up again - and it
>>> takes a few seconds to respond after identification.
>>> 5) People in the line get politely restless.
>>
>> That’s where you are doing it wrong. You should be
>> putting your stuff on the belt, wait till the checkout
>> monkey has scanned most of the items, then setup
>> your phone to make the payment. No one then has
>> to wait for you to do anything.

> And that's what you don't understand,

We'll see...

> the bank app takes a minute to be ready before I
> can wave it at the machine reader. I tried two banks.

And apple pay doesn’t, so you should be using that.

> So I prefer to prepare the app in advance,
> while I'm in the line doing nothing but waiting.

Makes more sense to do that after you load your
stuff onto the belt and only fire up the app if you
are stupid enough to use the app instead of applepay.

> And all this may interfere with also preparing the
> supermarket own app to activate my discounts.

Even more comprehensively fucked by design.
No need to do anything like that with mine,
just wave the phone at the terminal and it
does that completely automatically and
loads the receipt onto the phone so you
don’t have to fart around with the paper
receipt in case you need to do a return etc.

>> And with applepay its even easier, take your phone
>> out of your pocket with the registered thumb on
>> the touch id or look at the screen to have the
>> face id recognise you and wave it at the terminal
>> or just wave your wrist with the watch at the terminal.
>>
>>> 6) Fiddle with the cashier machine reading the phone - there is no
>>> marking to say where the antena is in both devices; some times it works,
>>> some times it doesn't; even a machine at the same supermarket will work,
>>> the next will not.
>>
>> You need a better phone.
>
> Maybe it is not the phone, but the supermarket device.
> I have no way to know,

That’s wrong too. Trivial to check if others have that
problem with that supermarket device.

> and no, I will not buy another phone till this one dies, and no,
> I refuse to buy an expensive phone. Even if I get it for free.

Yep, you actually are that stupid.

>>> 7) Apologize and use the card.
>>
>>> I was using the phone because the bank asked us to try.
>>
>>> So the fact is I see very few people use the phone to pay, and obviously
>>> I don't know what app they use - I saw *one* young man yesterday using
>>> it. Happened to be a supermarket staff doing a purchase - maybe they
>>> have a staff app?
>>>
>>> Me, I would never use Apple/Google pay and give
>>> them even more data; only in case of last resort.
>>
>> Apple gets no data at all. And I couldn’t care
>> less if anyone knows what I have bought.
>
> I don't trust them, and I don't like them. :-P

Your problem, as always.

>>> Yes, we use a user to user paying app,
>>
>> We do too, and more than one too.
>>
>>> here Bizum is very popular. Just not for paying merchants,
>>> initially it was not activated, dunno about now.
>>
>> But even if it works for merchants, its more
>> farting around than just waving the phone
>> or watch at the merchant terminal.
>>
>>> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizum
>>
>>>> The next step is to internationalise these types of transactions.
>>
>>>> Apple> Pay and Google Pay are very old fashioned and cumbersome.
>>
>>> Certainly, that's the next step.
>>
>> Its there now with apple pay and google pay.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> sms wrote
>> Chris wrote

>>>> And considering that the wallet also contains the ID card and the
>>>> driving license, and driving without that is a fine, there is barely
>>>> that risk here.
>>>
>>> The UK doesn't do ID cards and you don't need to have your drivers
>>> licence
>>> on you when driving, so going out with just your phone is not a problem.
>>
>> Apple just recently announced that several states in the U.S. will allow
>> digital driver's licenses to be stored in the Apple Wallet, see
>> <https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first-states-to-adopt-drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-wallet/>.
>>
>>
>> When I was in China in 2019 my friend that lives in Shanghai told me
>> that almost no one carries a wallet anymore. Everything you need is on
>> your phone. Transit cards, paying for everything, ID. Cash usage is rare.
>>
>> If I'm not driving somewhere then I can leave my wallet at home.
>> Actually for bicycling it sometimes helps to have some cash. If your
>> tire gets a hole in it then you can use paper money as a temporary fix,
>> see: <https://cyclingskills.blogspot.com/2008/07/dollar-bill-trick.html>.
>
> :-D
>
>
> We can have the driving license and other car papers in
> the phone as well, yes. But the procedure is convoluted

Trivially simple with ours.

> (I haven't tried, I just read the comments). I have personal
> experience with "convoluted" computer procedures with the
> Spanish administration, so I will keep my distance, thank you.

> Ah! You need a working internet connection
> at the time the police asks for your papers,

Not with ours, its just as good as the physical one in that situation.

> and comments say the app or the procedure can fail,
> which is trouble.

Not with ours.

> Papers we have to carry in the car include proof of payment
> of the insurance (the receipt) and the city car tax.

What a fucked system. Ours can check it anytime and in fact
do that with all the cars they pass using the camera in the
car that scans all they pass. The drivers license of the owner too.

> Which is funny, because nowdays the bank doesn't mail them,
> so we just print the PDF at home. That's not a "legally valid
> document", though, so I wonder what will the police do.
> I could carry the PDF on the phone, but I will not risk it.
> Police lack humour, and one tends to be nervous when
> they are asking.

> And when you provide the documents they will go back to their car for
> verification with their servers, anyway... so why do we need to carry
> them at all?

Because your system is fucked by design.

On 11/09/2021 00.08, Your Name wrote:
> On 2021-09-10 10:28:23 +0000, Carlos E. R. said:
>> On 10/09/2021 04.34, Your Name wrote:
>>> On 2021-09-09 18:35:36 +0000, Wilf said:
>>>> On 09/09/2021 at 18:56, sms wrote:
>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
>>>> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.
>>>
>>> Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
>>> one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use Apple
>>> / Google Pay in the shops. This week there has been a three-day (so far)
>>> outage of internet banking for at leat one of the big banks.
>>>
>>> Banks here no longer accept cheques. Even before Covid some places (such
>>> as buses) were reluctant to accept cash. It really makes you wnoder how
>>> people will be expected to be able to buy anything when there are
>>> infrastructure issues causing these electronic gimmicks become useless.
>>
>> Buses here use preloaded/prepaid specific cards, different one per city.
>> At least where I tried. Those are not affected by internet outages.
>
> Except when you have to try to add more money onto them here. Even if
> you pay in cash at the very few actual "shop" places, they have to use
> the internet to actually add the amount to your card.

Not really, the interaction is local, between the driver machine and
your card (which has a chip and memory). Internet is not needed.

>> Funnily, in my city we load the card paying the driver with paper
>> money :-D
>>
>> Phones can not be used - again in the cities I have used their buses.
>
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

| >
| > That's an interesting one. In their early days they were
| > trying to get shareware authors onboard. But they required
| > that the author let them control the bank account for payment
| > deposits. There were horror stories of people having their
| > account locked indefinitely by PayPal due to customer
| > complaints, etc. So I made a point of never dealing with them
| > in any capacity.
| | Ow.
| | What account, the bank account or the paypal account?
|

An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
deposit payments, but only at their discretion. And they had
the power to lock the account. So they weren't really operating
as a payment service. It was more like software authors were
PayPal empoyees who got paid as PayPal saw fit.

On 9/10/2021 4:15 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote

>> It's an easy way to transfer money to an individual without needing
>> to know anything but his name.
>
> All you need with paypal is his email address and with the instant
> electronic transfer, either that or his mobile/cellphone number.

I passed 40 grandkids/greatgrandkids awhile back. Many don't have an
email address or any online presence. Much easier with gift checks...

On 9/10/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 11/09/2021 00.18, AJL wrote:

>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money
>> to an individual without needing to know anything but his name. No
>> app info required. For example I generally mail checks in birthday
>> cards to grandkids around the country because it's safer than
>> mailing cash and I know that they got them when the check clears.
>
> That would backfire here.
>
> Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank account
> to cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the kid
> can not withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of age. No
> exceptions.
>
> An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high
> fee.

Here the parents can countersign the check and use their phone to
deposit it into their account (no bank trip required). They can then
later go to the store with the kid to buy the gift, give him cash, or
combine the money with other cash gifts to buy something really special...

In article <shgoja$rc7$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> In the U.S., while many businesses have stopped accepting cash entirely,
> many more are discouraging the use of cash in multiple ways.

you're backpedaling.

your original statement was that the pandemic 'made it more difficult
to use cash and some have stopped accepting it altogether':

In article <shfvea$u3t$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash which has
> benefits that go beyond just the health benefits. Many businesses have
> made it more difficult to use cash and some have stopped accepting it
> altogether.

that is false.

now you've now changed that to 'discouraging', which is *not* the same
thing.

> It's actually not legal to refuse cash as payment for goods or services
> that you already received, like a restaurant meal where you pay when
> you're done.

that's a myth.

<https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tend
er.aspx>
This statute means that all United States money as identified above
are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a
creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a
private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or
coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses
are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept
cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a
bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In
addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may
refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above
$20) as a matter of policy.

> But for many transactions, you pay before you receive the
> goods or services, and unless there is a local law that requires
> accepting cash, businesses can refuse to deal with cash.

that part is true, unless there's a law stating otherwise, such as what
some states and cities have done, which also predated the pandemic.

> Airlines long
> ago stopped accepting cash payment for beverages, food, Wi-Fi, and
> entertainment, if you can't pay with a credit, debit, or mobile wallet
> then you're out of luck.

that also wasn't due to the pandemic.

In article <shgq2s$j2n$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> | > That's an interesting one. In their early days they were
> | > trying to get shareware authors onboard. But they required
> | > that the author let them control the bank account for payment
> | > deposits. There were horror stories of people having their
> | > account locked indefinitely by PayPal due to customer
> | > complaints, etc. So I made a point of never dealing with them
> | > in any capacity.
> |
> | Ow.
> |
> | What account, the bank account or the paypal account?
> |
>
> An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
> account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
> deposit payments, but only at their discretion.

paypal users have always been able to transfer money to/from a linked
bank account at any time.

> And they had
> the power to lock the account.

they can lock the paypal account if there's fraud.

the linked bank account is outside their control.

> So they weren't really operating
> as a payment service. It was more like software authors were
> PayPal empoyees who got paid as PayPal saw fit.

it wasn't like that at all.

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

| > Me, I would never use Apple/Google pay and give them even more data;
| > only in case of last resort.
| | Actually, the reason a few chain stores in the U.S. won't accept Apple
| Pay or Google Pay is because they get _less_ data than they get from
| regular credit card transactions, either Chip & Pin or contactless.
| Apple Pay and Google Pay obfuscate the transaction so the merchant gets
| less data and the merchant doesn't even see the actually credit card
number.
|

That's possible. Apple, especially, is sleazy that way, trying
to keep all the personal data for themselves. But in the long
run it's reasonable to assume that you're losing more data to
Google and Apple. Why? Because that's their business model.
They're both sleazy companies that make much of their
profit by tracking you. With Apple it's just not as obvious
because they try to keep ads, etc in-house. And most AppleSeeds
see it differently. They regard Apple's spying as "premium service".

Not so with retail stores. I don't recall ever getting flyers in
the mail from stores where I use credit cards. I generally use
cash, anyway. But for some large things I pay credit. I also don't
sign up for any "loyalty" IDs. So in the vast majority of cases
there's no personal data involved.

I saw a funny thing on TV last night. The redneck governor
of W. Virginia was on TV, pleading with his constituents to get
vaccinated. He complained that people had wacky ideas that
tracking devices were in the vaccines. Then he pointed out that
most people worried about that were carrying around cellphones.
I never thought I'd hear a gov't official admit to phone tracking,
much less a redneck governor... So there's hope. :)

In article <shgqpu$u87$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> | Actually, the reason a few chain stores in the U.S. won't accept Apple
> | Pay or Google Pay is because they get _less_ data than they get from
> | regular credit card transactions, either Chip & Pin or contactless.
> | Apple Pay and Google Pay obfuscate the transaction so the merchant gets
> | less data and the merchant doesn't even see the actually credit card
> number.
> |
>
> That's possible. Apple, especially, is sleazy that way, trying
> to keep all the personal data for themselves.

apple isn't keeping anything, nor can they.

apple gets *no* personal data from apple pay whatsoever.

the transaction is entirely between you, the merchant and the card
issuer, as it's always been.

the merchant doesn't even get a name/address, unless you provide it
(such as to be able to deliver whatever you order) or they already know
it (such as for a doctor or auto mechanic).

> But in the long
> run it's reasonable to assume that you're losing more data to
> Google and Apple. Why? Because that's their business model.

that's true for google. they are an ad company.

that's very much false for apple, and in fact, apple goes well out of
their way to *not* collect user data.

> They're both sleazy companies that make much of their
> profit by tracking you. With Apple it's just not as obvious
> because they try to keep ads, etc in-house. And most AppleSeeds
> see it differently. They regard Apple's spying as "premium service".

that is false.

> Not so with retail stores. I don't recall ever getting flyers in
> the mail from stores where I use credit cards.

the junk mail doesn't have to be from the store itself.

> I generally use
> cash, anyway. But for some large things I pay credit. I also don't
> sign up for any "loyalty" IDs. So in the vast majority of cases
> there's no personal data involved.

yes there is. any time you swipe/dip a credit card, the merchant gets
your name/address along with the credit card number.

contactless payments (either tap to pay or apple/google pay) does *not*
provide the name/address.

On 11/09/2021 01.16, Rod Speed wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> sms wrote
>>> Chris wrote
>
>>>>> And considering that the wallet also contains the ID card and the
>>>>> driving license, and driving without that is a fine, there is barely
>>>>> that risk here.
>>>>
>>>> The UK doesn't do ID cards and you don't need to have your drivers
>>>> licence
>>>> on you when driving, so going out with just your phone is not a
>>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Apple just recently announced that several states in the U.S. will allow
>>> digital driver's licenses to be stored in the Apple Wallet, see
>>> <https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first-states-to-adopt-drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-wallet/>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When I was in China in 2019 my friend that lives in Shanghai told me
>>> that almost no one carries a wallet anymore. Everything you need is on
>>> your phone. Transit cards, paying for everything, ID. Cash usage is
>>> rare.
>>>
>>> If I'm not driving somewhere then I can leave my wallet at home.
>>> Actually for bicycling it sometimes helps to have some cash. If your
>>> tire gets a hole in it then you can use paper money as a temporary fix,
>>> see:
>>> <https://cyclingskills.blogspot.com/2008/07/dollar-bill-trick.html>.
>>
>> :-D
>>
>>
>> We can have the driving license and other car papers in
>> the phone as well, yes. But the procedure is convoluted
>
> Trivially simple with ours.
>
>> (I haven't tried, I just read the comments). I have personal
>> experience with "convoluted" computer procedures with the
>> Spanish administration, so I will keep my distance, thank you.
>
>> Ah! You need a working internet connection
>> at the time the police asks for your papers,
>
> Not with ours, its just as good as the physical one in that situation.
>
>> and comments say the app or the procedure can fail,
>> which is trouble.
>
> Not with ours.
>
>> Papers we have to carry in the car include proof of payment
>> of the insurance (the receipt) and the city car tax.
>
> What a fucked system. Ours can check it anytime and in fact
> do that with all the cars they pass using the camera in the
> car that scans all they pass. The drivers license of the owner too.

Certainly, here too.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/09/2021 01.33, Mayayana wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
> | >
> | > That's an interesting one. In their early days they were
> | > trying to get shareware authors onboard. But they required
> | > that the author let them control the bank account for payment
> | > deposits. There were horror stories of people having their
> | > account locked indefinitely by PayPal due to customer
> | > complaints, etc. So I made a point of never dealing with them
> | > in any capacity.
> |
> | Ow.
> |
> | What account, the bank account or the paypal account?
> |
>
> An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
> account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
> deposit payments, but only at their discretion. And they had
> the power to lock the account. So they weren't really operating
> as a payment service. It was more like software authors were
> PayPal empoyees who got paid as PayPal saw fit.
>
>

Oh.

I don't know if here they can have that kind of power over the actual
bank account.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/09/2021 01.15, Rod Speed wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
>> Frank Slootweg wrote
>
>>> Basically you can't compare the European/EU payment systems with
>>> those of the US. The US is way behind, sometimes decades ('checks'
>>> anyone?), and is not really catching on.
>
>> I still find checks very handy.
>
> I find them a complete pain in the arse. Much easier to
> use paypal or the instant electronic transfer on the phone.
>
>> It's an easy way to transfer money to an individual without needing to
>> know anything but his name.
>
> All you need with paypal is his email address
> and with the instant electronic transfer, either
> that or his mobile/cellphone number.
>

Here the kid would not see that money till he makes 18.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

In article <tv8t0ixbvc.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> > An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
> > account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
> > deposit payments, but only at their discretion. And they had
> > the power to lock the account. So they weren't really operating
> > as a payment service. It was more like software authors were
> > PayPal empoyees who got paid as PayPal saw fit.
> >
> >
>
> Oh.
>
> I don't know if here they can have that kind of power over the actual
> bank account.

they can't anywhere. he's wrong.

On 11/09/2021 01.16, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2021-09-10 13:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> In the situation where each city uses a different card, having a method
>> with the phone would be convenient when hitting a different city -
>> provided the app is a single one or two for every city.
>
>
> Transit is very hard. Consider that when paying with credit card, the
> turnstyle register your crediut card, gets authentication for default
> amount. Registers you leaving system. Then does the sale until end of
> day, and then calculates what you should be billed (zingle passage,
> multiple indivcidual passages, day pass etc). Then, at end of week, if
> you have continued to use it, they will bill difference between whatever
> you paid on first day to a week pass, and at end of month, bill the
> difference between what you already paid and a monthy pass.
>
> It is much easier to either use the transit card, or the credit card.
> (and transit cards can either store "trips" or just store monetary value
> but with ability to add a pass).
>
>
> Each city is different.
>
> However, in Ontario Canada, a transkit organisation called Metrolinx
> provides the card, payment terminals as well as the systems on buses and
> turnstyles in subway. Metrolinx takes a cut of transactions, and then
> pays the transit authority.
>
> So I can put $20 on my Presto card and take a couple of single trips in
> Ottawa, and the next day, use the card in Toronto. (bit not sure how
> passes work and if they "travel" between cities).
>

Yeah, each city, different system.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/09/2021 01.16, Rod Speed wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>> Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>> Am 09.09.21 um 22:30 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>>>>> On 09/09/2021 19.56, sms wrote:
>>>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect
>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world
>>>>>>> than iOS
>>>>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also
>>>>>>> part of
>>>>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>>>>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>>>>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been
>>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>>>>>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>>>>>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is
>>>>>> simply
>>>>>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is what I called an electronic cash transaction. In Europe
>>>>> they are
>>>>> the real growth area. In Switzerland they call it "Twint". Even
>>>>> P2P-Transactions are possible. Thats the way we clear money issues in
>>>>> the wider family.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.twint.ch/en/
>>>>
>>>> That's another one. No, I was talking of an specific bank app that
>>>> replaces the card, and the phone works as if it were the NFC card.
>>>> Quite
>>>> cumbersome.
>>>
>>>> 1) Open the phone, identify.
>>>> 2) Open the banking app, identify.
>>>> 3) Line up to pay at the supermarket. Unload your goods into the
>>>> "belt".
>>>> 4) The bank app has timed out and closed. Open it up again - and it
>>>> takes a few seconds to respond after identification.
>>>> 5) People in the line get politely restless.
>>>
>>> That’s where you are doing it wrong. You should be
>>> putting your stuff on the belt, wait till the checkout
>>> monkey has scanned most of the items, then setup
>>> your phone to make the payment. No one then has
>>> to wait for you to do anything.
>
>> And that's what you don't understand,
>
> We'll see...
>
>> the bank app takes a minute to be ready before I
>> can wave it at the machine reader. I tried two banks.
>
> And apple pay doesn’t, so you should be using that.

Except that merchants do not accept Apple/Google Pay here.

>
>> So I prefer to prepare the app in advance,
>> while I'm in the line doing nothing but waiting.
>
> Makes more sense to do that after you load your
> stuff onto the belt and only fire up the app if you
> are stupid enough to use the app instead of applepay.

Back to insulting.

zap.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

In article <nc9t0ixbvc.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>
> Except that merchants do not accept Apple/Google Pay here.

apple and google say otherwise:

<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206637>
Spain
{73 participating banks listed}

<https://support.google.com/pay/answer/7476927?hl=en>
Spain: Supported payment methods
To find out if your bank or card supports contactless payments
with Google Pay, check out the table below.

visitors have used it:
<https://www.reddit.com/r/ApplePay/comments/cpdjj8/used_apple_pay_in_spa
in/>
Went to Spain for the weekend and used Apple Pay with every
purchase. It was magical. Will make going back to Atlanta and
paying w credit card painful. It¹s nice to see what the U.S. could
be.

<https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5pye6c/apple_pay_saved_me_in_sp
ain/>
I lost my debit card in the train station in Madrid. I immediately
cancelled it. The bank issued me a new one, and the card in my
iPhone's wallet was instantly updated as well.
I'm very fortunate that many of the credit card terminals here accept
contactless payment. Which also includes Apple Pay. Sometimes they
don't realize their terminal accepts Apple Pay, so you'll just kind
of have to insist on it.
If it were not for Apple Pay, I would totally be SOL in a foreign
country. Couldn't eat. Couldn't get a ride. Nothin. Thanks Apple
Pay for saving me!

Am 11.09.21 um 01:44 schrieb nospam:
> In article <shgq2s$j2n$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
> <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
>> | > That's an interesting one. In their early days they were
>> | > trying to get shareware authors onboard. But they required
>> | > that the author let them control the bank account for payment
>> | > deposits. There were horror stories of people having their
>> | > account locked indefinitely by PayPal due to customer
>> | > complaints, etc. So I made a point of never dealing with them
>> | > in any capacity.
>> |
>> | Ow.
>> |
>> | What account, the bank account or the paypal account?
>> |
>>
>> An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
>> account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
>> deposit payments, but only at their discretion.
>
> paypal users have always been able to transfer money to/from a linked
> bank account at any time.
>
>> And they had
>> the power to lock the account.
>
> they can lock the paypal account if there's fraud.
>
> the linked bank account is outside their control.

In my case they even do not know which bank I use.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum