Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
> Carlos E. R. wrote
>> Chris wrote

>>> Also most people always carry their phone but not necessarily
>>> always their wallet so you always have a payment with you.

> It is exactly vice versa.
>> Non issue for me.
>> I have forgotten the phone more times than the wallet.
> +1

I mostly manage to leave the phone in the car.
>> And considering that the wallet also contains
>> the ID card and the driving license, and driving
>> without that is a fine, there is barely that risk here.

> You name it. All relevant documents are in my wallet
> and not on my phone. If you drive without the licence
> on you you have to pay a fine in Europe. Same with ID-card.

We aren't stupid enough to have ID cards and have digital
drivers licenses and passports and vaccination passports.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

>> One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash
>> which has benefits that go beyond just the health benefits.
>> Many businesses have made it more difficult to use cash
>> and some have stopped accepting it altogether.
> such as which ones?

Car rental, hotels, real estate, new car dealers, most public
transport, virtually all airlines and even some coffee shops etc.

> or is this another made up claim?

Nope.

In article <iq1scrF97u1U1@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash
> >> which has benefits that go beyond just the health benefits.
> >> Many businesses have made it more difficult to use cash
> >> and some have stopped accepting it altogether.
>
> > such as which ones?
>
> Car rental, hotels, real estate, new car dealers, most public
> transport, virtually all airlines and even some coffee shops etc.

that's always been that way.

his baseless claim was that the pandemic caused some businesses to
forego cash. there is *zero* evidence of that.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Wilf wrote:
>
>> In the UK, there is currently a £45 limit on contactless card
>> transactions.
>
> Which will raise to £100 from 15th October.
>
>> There is no such limit when using Apple Pay contactless
>> transactions.
>
> There is no such limit with my bank's contactless app (although I
> suspect it requires PIN/fingerprint as additional proof of id).

Which bank?

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
> AJL wrote
>> Mayayana wrote

>>> I'm not paying some middleman company for the privilege of making a
>>> transaction.
>>
>> Actually you are. EVERYONE, cash or credit, is paying higher product
>> prices so that the stores can still make a profit after paying the
>> credit card companies their merchant fees. So in effect you cash users
>> are helping subsidize us credit card users. Many thanks.
>
> The cost of accepting cash is likely much higher than what the store is
> paying in merchant fees, when you take into account all the expenses.
> See
> <https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-from-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%E2%80%99-Cash-handling-Costs-Range-from-4.7-to-15.3-Depending-on-Retail-Segment>.
>
> And of course, besides the cost, there are other disadvantages to the
> business not taking credit cards, especially in terms of how much
> customers spend.
>
> A business might see an advantage in taking only debit cards, and a few
> stores do this, and some used to do it. In my area, the least expensive
> pet store chain used to only take debit cards but changed that policy. A
> very good, low-cost supermarket chain, WinCo, still doesn't take credit
> cards <https://www.wincofoods.com/customer-service/faqs/#creditcards>.
> Both of these stores have prices that are significantly lower than their
> competitors, and are "destination stores."

Aldi here has prices that are significantly lower than their competitors.
They accept all of credit and debit cards and cash but charge a small
surcharge with credit cards.

That’s one problem with apple pay, even if you are using a debit card with
apple pay, the terminal cant see that and you get charged the surcharge.

> The bottom line is that credit card users, despite paying a net lower cost
> for things, are still subsidizing cash users. Cash users are an annoyance
> to the cashier as well as to other customers because they significantly
> slow down the checkout line. Fortunately, most self-checkout lines don't
> take cash.

Some of the machines in our self checkout bays do.

> Many stores now have signs up asking customers to not use cash, which is a
> change from the time that they used to have signs up requesting cash.

> The places that still want cash are businesses that have another reason
> for preferring cash, unrelated to credit card fees, and those reasons hurt
> everyone else as well.

And drug dealers.

On 10/09/2021 20.37, Rod Speed wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> On 10/09/2021 04.34, Your Name wrote:
>>> On 2021-09-09 18:35:36 +0000, Wilf said:
>>>> On 09/09/2021 at 18:56, sms wrote:
>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
>>>> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.
>>>
>>> Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
>>> one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use Apple
>>> / Google Pay in the shops. This week there has been a three-day (so far)
>>> outage of internet banking for at leat one of the big banks.
>>>
>>> Banks here no longer accept cheques. Even before Covid some places (such
>>> as buses) were reluctant to accept cash. It really makes you wnoder how
>>> people will be expected to be able to buy anything when there are
>>> infrastructure issues causing these electronic gimmicks become useless.
>>
>> Buses here use preloaded/prepaid specific cards, different one per city.
>> At least where I tried. Those are not affected by internet outages.
>>
>> Funnily, in my city we load the card paying the driver with paper
>> money :-D
>>
>> Phones can not be used - again in the cities I have used their buses.
>
> Virtually everyone except you dinosaurs allow you to pay with the phone
> now as well.

Not in our buses. Don't argue with me, argue with the bus company.

I googled, and one articles says you can pay with your phone in Madrid
buses since June 2020.

<https://www.expansion.com/economia-digital/innovacion/2020/06/05/5eda4522468aeb93558b4628.html>

- first scan a QR code on the bus, using an app called Imbric.
- Make payment on the app? Not clear in article.
- The bus driver receives in real time a confirmation from the company
servers of bus fare paid.

No "waving the phone".

I have no idea how the app gets the money. Contact with the bank?
Preloaded amount? Dunno.

This app, I understand:

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.taksee.uma>

It says:

+++--------------------

🚌 Bus.

Do you prefer public transport? You can now buy your ticket for the
urban or interurban bus within the app, without having to have several
different transportation cards for each city.

1. Choose your bus stop.
2. Buy the ticket you need.
3. Validate your ticket when you get on the bus with your mobile.
4. Enjoy!

Try in Madrid (EMT), Granada, Córdoba, Torrejón de Ardoz and very soon
in many more cities.
Also, do not worry if you can not use your ticket or finally do not use
it, we will refund the money.
--------------------++-

So, no Apple/Google pay at all. No waving the phone. Again, don't argue
with me, argue with them. Questions? Ask them, not me.

The company site gives completely different information, more recent. I
see no mention of the above system, but I did not search much.

<https://www.emtmadrid.es/Faqs-Pago-con-tarjeta.aspx>
English:
<https://www.emtmadrid.es/Paginas-especiales/Pago-con-tarjeta.aspx?lang=en-GB>

01 What is the bank card or mobile payment system?

This system allows payment to be made for a single ticket using a
contactless bank card or mobile device by placing the card or device
near to the EMT buses validator ('tap & go' system).

02 What type of cards are accepted when paying for a single ticket?

Payment can be made with Visa or Mastercard credit or debit cards, as
long as they are contactless, either physically or virtualised on a
mobile device.

31 What cards are accepted?

All the contactless cards issued by Visa and Mastercard as well as
virtualised cards on mobile devices.

Well, no Google/Apple/Samsung pay, but Visa/Mastercard debit/credit
contactles card or phone.

And notice that paying the full price of a single ticket is quite
expensive, as compared to purchasing a ten trip ticket, for instance.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> >> One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash
>> >> which has benefits that go beyond just the health benefits.
>> >> Many businesses have made it more difficult to use cash
>> >> and some have stopped accepting it altogether.
>>
>> > such as which ones?
>>
>> Car rental, hotels, real estate, new car dealers, most public
>> transport, virtually all airlines and even some coffee shops etc.
>
> that's always been that way.
>
> his baseless claim was that the pandemic caused some businesses to
> forego cash. there is *zero* evidence of that.

There is here, quite a few operations wont accept cash due to the
pandemic and that's with far less virus around than you lot have.

But then we weren't actually stupid enough to end up with
650K killed by the virus either.

On 10/09/2021 20.06, sms wrote:
> On 9/10/2021 5:22 AM, Chris wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> And considering that the wallet also contains the ID card and the
>>> driving license, and driving without that is a fine, there is barely
>>> that risk here.
>>
>> The UK doesn't do ID cards and you don't need to have your drivers
>> licence
>> on you when driving, so going out with just your phone is not a problem.
>
> Apple just recently announced that several states in the U.S. will allow
> digital driver's licenses to be stored in the Apple Wallet, see
> <https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first-states-to-adopt-drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-wallet/>.
>
>
> When I was in China in 2019 my friend that lives in Shanghai told me
> that almost no one carries a wallet anymore. Everything you need is on
> your phone. Transit cards, paying for everything, ID. Cash usage is rare.
>
> If I'm not driving somewhere then I can leave my wallet at home.
> Actually for bicycling it sometimes helps to have some cash. If your
> tire gets a hole in it then you can use paper money as a temporary fix,
> see: <https://cyclingskills.blogspot.com/2008/07/dollar-bill-trick.html>.

:-D

We can have the driving license and other car papers in the phone as
well, yes. But the procedure is convoluted (I haven't tried, I just read
the comments). I have personal experience with "convoluted" computer
procedures with the Spanish administration, so I will keep my distance,
thank you.

Ah! You need a working internet connection at the time the police asks
for your papers, and comments say the app or the procedure can fail,
which is trouble.

Papers we have to carry in the car include proof of payment of the
insurance (the receipt) and the city car tax. Which is funny, because
nowdays the bank doesn't mail them, so we just print the PDF at home.
That's not a "legally valid document", though, so I wonder what will the
police do. I could carry the PDF on the phone, but I will not risk it.
Police lack humour, and one tends to be nervous when they are asking.

And when you provide the documents they will go back to their car for
verification with their servers, anyway... so why do we need to carry
them at all?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/09/2021 21.43, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/09/2021 19.29, Savageduck wrote:
>>> On Sep 10, 2021, Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>> (in article <shg0rv$dkd$2@dont-email.me>):
>>>
>>>> Am 10.09.21 um 15:03 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>>>> On 10/09/2021 14.47, Rob wrote:
>>>>>> Carlos E. R.<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> But as Joerg Lorenz say, why put up with another
>>>>>>> intermediary that will gloat with having the data of the purchase
>>>>>>> history of millions of clients?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure. I think "almost nobody" uses those payment services here, that
>>>>>> is mostly an American thing. Just like we do not use PayPal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paypal I use :-)
>>>>
>>>> Me too. But that is seldom and only with Asian counterparts and only if
>>>> absolutely necessary.
>>>>
>>>>> But very little, with some internet purchases in which a debit/credit
>>>>> card is not an option for something. Perhaps when paying in dollars
>>>>> because the exchange is more convenient than what my bank does. Not even
>>>>> once a month.
>>>>
>>>> Same here.
>>>
>>> I use PayPal for making transfers to known bank accounts, domestic, and foreign as their rates are far lower than the banks charge. I also use PayPal for some online purchases.
>>>
>>
>> That's curious. Inside the same country at least, bank transfers are
>> free in Spain when ordered via internet - depends on the bank? Probably
>> the same thing with banks in another country but in the European Union,
>> but I will not vouch for it.
>
> I was about to say the same.
>
> Basically you can't compare the European/EU payment systems with those
> of the US. The US is way behind, sometimes decades ('checks' anyone?),
> and is not really catching on.
>
> And, as Rob also mentions, bank transfers are free in NL for the whole
> EU and probably the other EU countries have the same rules. (AFAIK, in
> the EU, banks are not allowed to charge either party for within-EU
> transfers.)

I think my bank charges a fee if you go to the clerk instead of using
Internet.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/09/2021 20.01, Mayayana wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
> |
> | Paypal I use :-)
> |
>
> That's an interesting one. In their early days they were
> trying to get shareware authors onboard. But they required
> that the author let them control the bank account for payment
> deposits. There were horror stories of people having their
> account locked indefinitely by PayPal due to customer
> complaints, etc. So I made a point of never dealing with them
> in any capacity.

Ow.

What account, the bank account or the paypal account?

>
> To some extent I guess that's the cost of business online.
> You need a service to handle payments, and those services
> want to keep the customer happy. So they'll bend over
> backward and sacrifice the merchant. But they still take
> their cut, even if they refund to the customer.

Yes, I heard stories when used to receive payments.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>> On 10/09/2021 04.34, Your Name wrote:
>>>> On 2021-09-09 18:35:36 +0000, Wilf said:
>>>>> On 09/09/2021 at 18:56, sms wrote:
>>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
>>>>> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.
>>>>
>>>> Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
>>>> one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use
>>>> Apple
>>>> / Google Pay in the shops. This week there has been a three-day (so
>>>> far)
>>>> outage of internet banking for at leat one of the big banks.
>>>>
>>>> Banks here no longer accept cheques. Even before Covid some places
>>>> (such
>>>> as buses) were reluctant to accept cash. It really makes you wnoder how
>>>> people will be expected to be able to buy anything when there are
>>>> infrastructure issues causing these electronic gimmicks become useless.
>>>
>>> Buses here use preloaded/prepaid specific cards, different one per city.
>>> At least where I tried. Those are not affected by internet outages.
>>>
>>> Funnily, in my city we load the card paying the driver with paper
>>> money :-D
>>>
>>> Phones can not be used - again in the cities I have used their buses.
>>
>> Virtually everyone except you dinosaurs allow you to pay with the phone
>> now as well.
>
> Not in our buses.

That’s why I said "Virtually everyone except you dinosaurs"

I realise that english isn't your first language.

> Don't argue with me, argue with the bus company.

I wasn’t arguing with you, just rubbing your nose
in the fact that no everyone is such a dinosaur.

> I googled, and one articles says you can pay with
> your phone in Madrid buses since June 2020.

> <https://www.expansion.com/economia-digital/innovacion/2020/06/05/5eda4522468aeb93558b4628.html>

> - first scan a QR code on the bus, using an app called Imbric.
> - Make payment on the app? Not clear in article.
> - The bus driver receives in real time a confirmation from the company
> servers of bus fare paid.

The operations that have implemented it properly allow
you to just wave the phone at the terminal in exactly the
same way as you do with the contactless transport card.

> No "waving the phone".

But there is with the operations that have implemented it properly.

> I have no idea how the app gets the money. Contact with the bank?
> Preloaded amount? Dunno.

Also fucked compared with just waving your phone at it.

> This app, I understand:
>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.taksee.uma>
>
>
> It says:
>
> +++--------------------
>
> 🚌 Bus.
>
> Do you prefer public transport? You can now buy your ticket for the
> urban or interurban bus within the app, without having to have several
> different transportation cards for each city.
>
> 1. Choose your bus stop.
> 2. Buy the ticket you need.
> 3. Validate your ticket when you get on the bus with your mobile.
> 4. Enjoy!
>
> Try in Madrid (EMT), Granada, Córdoba, Torrejón de Ardoz and very soon
> in many more cities.
> Also, do not worry if you can not use your ticket or finally do not use
> it, we will refund the money.
> --------------------++-
>
>
> So, no Apple/Google pay at all. No waving the phone.

Yep, you lot don’t have a fucking clue about how to do things properly.

> Again, don't argue with me,

I'm not arguing with you, I am rubbing your nose
in the fact that you lot couldn’t organise a pissup
in a brewery or a tequila factory either.

> argue with them. Questions? Ask them, not me.

Get fucked.

> The company site gives completely different information, more recent.
> I see no mention of the above system, but I did not search much.

> <https://www.emtmadrid.es/Faqs-Pago-con-tarjeta.aspx>
> English:
> <https://www.emtmadrid.es/Paginas-especiales/Pago-con-tarjeta.aspx?lang=en-GB>
>
>
>
> 01 What is the bank card or mobile payment system?
>
> This system allows payment to be made for a single ticket using a
> contactless bank card or mobile device by placing the card or device
> near to the EMT buses validator ('tap & go' system).
>
>
> 02 What type of cards are accepted when paying for a single ticket?
>
> Payment can be made with Visa or Mastercard credit or debit cards, as
> long as they are contactless, either physically or virtualised on a
> mobile device.
>
>
> 31 What cards are accepted?
>
> All the contactless cards issued by Visa and Mastercard as well as
> virtualised cards on mobile devices.
>
>
>
> Well, no Google/Apple/Samsung pay,

Because you lot couldn’t organise a pissup
in a brewery or a tequila factory either.

> but Visa/Mastercard debit/credit
> contactles card or phone.
>
> And notice that paying the full price of a single ticket is quite
> expensive, as compared to purchasing a ten trip ticket, for instance.

Because you lot couldn’t organise a pissup
in a brewery or a tequila factory either.

Chris wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Wilf wrote:
>>
>>> In the UK, there is currently a £45 limit on contactless card
>>> transactions.
>>
>> Which will raise to £100 from 15th October.
>>
>>> There is no such limit when using Apple Pay contactless
>>> transactions.
>>
>> There is no such limit with my bank's contactless app (although I
>> suspect it requires PIN/fingerprint as additional proof of id).
>
> Which bank?

Barclays, turns out there *is* a limit but it's £300.

On 10/09/2021 20.47, Rod Speed wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>> Am 09.09.21 um 22:30 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>>> On 09/09/2021 19.56, sms wrote:
>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for their
>>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>>
>>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect that the
>>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world than iOS
>>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also part of
>>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>>
>>>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>>>
>>>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been
>>>>> responsible
>>>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>>>
>>>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>>>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>>>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I have
>>>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is
>>>> simply
>>>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody has
>>>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>>>
>>> That is what I called an electronic cash transaction. In Europe they are
>>> the real growth area. In Switzerland they call it "Twint". Even
>>> P2P-Transactions are possible. Thats the way we clear money issues in
>>> the wider family.
>>>
>>> https://www.twint.ch/en/
>>
>> That's another one. No, I was talking of an specific bank app that
>> replaces the card, and the phone works as if it were the NFC card. Quite
>> cumbersome.
>
>> 1) Open the phone, identify.
>> 2) Open the banking app, identify.
>> 3) Line up to pay at the supermarket. Unload your goods into the "belt".
>> 4) The bank app has timed out and closed. Open it up again - and it
>> takes a few seconds to respond after identification.
>> 5) People in the line get politely restless.
>
> That’s where you are doing it wrong. You should be
> putting your stuff on the belt, wait till the checkout
> monkey has scanned most of the items, then setup
> your phone to make the payment. No one then has
> to wait for you to do anything.

And that's what you don't understand, the bank app takes a minute to be
ready before I can wave it at the machine reader. I tried two banks.

So I prefer to prepare the app in advance, while I'm in the line doing
nothing but waiting.

And all this may interfere with also preparing the supermarket own app
to activate my discounts.

> And with applepay its even easier, take your phone
> out of your pocket with the registered thumb on
> the touch id or look at the screen to have the
> face id recognise you and wave it at the terminal
> or just wave your wrist with the watch at the terminal.
>
>> 6) Fiddle with the cashier machine reading the phone - there is no
>> marking to say where the antena is in both devices; some times it works,
>> some times it doesn't; even a machine at the same supermarket will work,
>> the next will not.
>
> You need a better phone.

Maybe it is not the phone, but the supermarket device. I have no way to
know, and no, I will not buy another phone till this one dies, and no, I
refuse to buy an expensive phone. Even if I get it for free.

>
>> 7) Apologize and use the card.
>
>> I was using the phone because the bank asked us to try.
>
>> So the fact is I see very few people use the phone to pay, and obviously
>> I don't know what app they use - I saw *one* young man yesterday using
>> it. Happened to be a supermarket staff doing a purchase - maybe they
>> have a staff app?
>>
>> Me, I would never use Apple/Google pay and give
>> them even more data; only in case of last resort.
>
> Apple gets no data at all. And I couldn’t care
> less if anyone knows what I have bought.

I don't trust them, and I don't like them. :-P

>
>> Yes, we use a user to user paying app,
>
> We do too, and more than one too.
>
>> here Bizum is very popular. Just not for paying merchants,
>> initially it was not activated, dunno about now.
>
> But even if it works for merchants, its more
> farting around than just waving the phone
> or watch at the merchant terminal.
>
>> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizum
>
>>> The next step is to internationalise these types of transactions.
>
>>> Apple> Pay and Google Pay are very old fashioned and cumbersome.
>
>> Certainly, that's the next step.
>
> Its there now with apple pay and google pay.
>
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/09/2021 20.55, Rod Speed wrote:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
>> Wilf wrote
>
>>> In the UK, there is currently a £45 limit on contactless card
>>> transactions.  There is no such limit when using Apple Pay contactless
>>> transactions.
>>
>> When that started a couple of years ago the limit in Switzerland was CHF
>> 40 per transaction. During the pandemic ist was doubled to CHF 80 which
>> is the equivalent of £ 65. Absolutely sufficient for grocery shopping
>> and paying the parking fee.
>
> But not for buying a major appliance or even a set of tyres for the car.

I have no problem remembering the pin or typing it in an instant. In
fact, I prefer this.

>
>> Entering the PIN on a pad is not relevant from a pandemic point of view
>> anyway.
>>
>> And for larger amounts I don't want any device to decide to charge
>> without my conscious consent (=PIN).
>
> It doesn’t, you have to use the touch ID or facial
> recognition or enter a PIN if you are that dinosauary.
>
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/09/2021 22.13, nospam wrote:
> In article <iq1scrF97u1U1@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed
> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash
>>>> which has benefits that go beyond just the health benefits.
>>>> Many businesses have made it more difficult to use cash
>>>> and some have stopped accepting it altogether.
>>
>>> such as which ones?
>>
>> Car rental, hotels, real estate, new car dealers, most public
>> transport, virtually all airlines and even some coffee shops etc.
>
> that's always been that way.
>
> his baseless claim was that the pandemic caused some businesses to
> forego cash. there is *zero* evidence of that.

It is a fact here. Not forego completely, that would be illegal, but
strongly recommending to use the contactless card, yes. So much so that
places that before did not want to use cards, switched to using them
most of the time.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/09/2021 22.01, Rod Speed wrote:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
>> Chris wrote
>
>>> Cash is outdated.
>
>> Cash is king! That will never change.
>
> It has already, hardly any employers will pay you cash anymore and
> almost no govts make cash welfare payments anymore. Have fun renting a
> car with cash now. You cant even buy a new car for cash here anymore.
> Still works with your drug dealer tho. 

Employers here are forbidden now from paying cash, but for a different
reason. It is prohibited to pay a merchant more than 1000€ in cash.
Private transactions are excepted, I understand, but you may have
trouble when entering the cash into your bank account.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

In article <24ts0ix51s.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> >>>> One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash
> >>>> which has benefits that go beyond just the health benefits.
> >>>> Many businesses have made it more difficult to use cash
> >>>> and some have stopped accepting it altogether.
> >>
> >>> such as which ones?
> >>
> >> Car rental, hotels, real estate, new car dealers, most public
> >> transport, virtually all airlines and even some coffee shops etc.
> >
> > that's always been that way.
> >
> > his baseless claim was that the pandemic caused some businesses to
> > forego cash. there is *zero* evidence of that.
>
> It is a fact here. Not forego completely, that would be illegal,

exactly the point.

> but
> strongly recommending to use the contactless card, yes. So much so that
> places that before did not want to use cards, switched to using them
> most of the time.

recommending contactless is entirely different than 'made it more
difficult to use cash and some have stopped accepting it altogether'.

On 10/09/2021 22.59, nospam wrote:
> In article <24ts0ix51s.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>>> One positive aspect of the pandemic is less use of cash
>>>>>> which has benefits that go beyond just the health benefits.
>>>>>> Many businesses have made it more difficult to use cash
>>>>>> and some have stopped accepting it altogether.
>>>>
>>>>> such as which ones?
>>>>
>>>> Car rental, hotels, real estate, new car dealers, most public
>>>> transport, virtually all airlines and even some coffee shops etc.
>>>
>>> that's always been that way.
>>>
>>> his baseless claim was that the pandemic caused some businesses to
>>> forego cash. there is *zero* evidence of that.
>>
>> It is a fact here. Not forego completely, that would be illegal,
>
> exactly the point.
>
>> but
>> strongly recommending to use the contactless card, yes. So much so that
>> places that before did not want to use cards, switched to using them
>> most of the time.
>
> recommending contactless is entirely different than 'made it more
> difficult to use cash and some have stopped accepting it altogether'.
>

I think there was a government campaign on TV to not use cash and other
recommendations.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/10/2021 12:23 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> When we temporarily lived in the US (decades ago), we couldn't pay
> anywhere with our (company provided) AMEX card. So we had to go to the
> bank and exchange our (Tomas Cook?) travelers cheques (remember those?).
> The AMEX card was handy to wipe the rain/snow from the windows of our
> rental car! :-)

I should try explaining "Traveler's Checks" to my kids! A long time ago
you could actually get a better exchange rate with traveler's checks
than with cash, if changing money at a bank.

Now, to get money out of a foreign ATM I would use a debit card that has
no foreign exchange charge and no foreign ATM fee, at a bank that has a
no-minimum balance checking account. I did that in Europe in 2019, but I
came home with too many Euros since we paid with Google Pay almost
everywhere.

It's smaller stores and restaurants that generally won't take Amex, but
those are the kinds of restaurants that are usually where you want to
go. We still have a few cash-only bars and restaurants around too,
though not many. One restaurant near me has a special cash-only take-out
menu. In San Francisco they passed a law that says that restaurants must
accept cash, but it's being violated a lot. It's not clear if the law
applies if the restaurant doesn't take orders, or accept any kind of
payment at all, inside the restaurant and is online ordering only no
matter how you pay
<https://sf.eater.com/2020/5/12/21255983/san-francisco-sfpd-cash-coronavirus>.

I can understand restaurants not wanting to take cash, it's a big hassle
and expense to have to deal with cash. But it's an equity issue since
some people don't have any other means of payment. I was thinking that
there should be vending machines where you can purchase a payment card,
in any amount, with cash, to avoid the need for the business to take
cash directly. The opposite of what some cash-only restaurants used to
do by putting an ATM inside the restaurant.

In the U.S., there's a good chance that a cash-only business is
under-reporting sales tax collections and under-reporting income,
because the 2% they pay in merchant credit card fees is almost certainly
lower than the cost of handling cash.

On 2021-09-10 10:28:23 +0000, Carlos E. R. said:

> On 10/09/2021 04.34, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2021-09-09 18:35:36 +0000, Wilf said:
>>> On 09/09/2021 at 18:56, sms wrote:
>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>
>
>
>>> They are missing out in that case, since Apple Pay is so convenient to
>>> use ... on public transport systems here in London too.
>>
>> Within the last week or so here in New Zealand there was an outage by
>> one of the multi-ISP server companies which meant nobody could use Apple
>> / Google Pay in the shops. This week there has been a three-day (so far)
>> outage of internet banking for at leat one of the big banks.
>>
>> Banks here no longer accept cheques. Even before Covid some places (such
>> as buses) were reluctant to accept cash. It really makes you wnoder how
>> people will be expected to be able to buy anything when there are
>> infrastructure issues causing these electronic gimmicks become useless.
>
> Buses here use preloaded/prepaid specific cards, different one per city.
> At least where I tried. Those are not affected by internet outages.

Except when you have to try to add more money onto them here. Even if
you pay in cash at the very few actual "shop" places, they have to use
the internet to actually add the amount to your card.

> Funnily, in my city we load the card paying the driver with paper money :-D
>
> Phones can not be used - again in the cities I have used their buses.

On 2021-09-09 23:27, Rod Speed wrote:

> But applepay works much better because you
> just wave the phone at the terminal and its done.

On 6s with TouchID yes. Not with FaceID phones.

double click power button to activate Apple Pay, wait for FaceID to time
out (since you are wearing mask in shops), then press "use passkey",
then enter PIN, and then you can wave phone at POS.

Much simpler to just take card out and wave it at POS terminal.

On 9/10/2021 12:43 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> Basically you can't compare the European/EU payment systems with
> those of the US. The US is way behind, sometimes decades ('checks'
> anyone?), and is not really catching on.

I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money to an
individual without needing to know anything but his name. No app info
required. For example I generally mail checks in birthday cards to
grandkids around the country because it's safer than mailing cash and I
know that they got them when the check clears. I put a check in a
wedding card and lay it on the unguarded gift table - same reasons.
I leave a check for the yard guy under the mat. Since everybody knows
the system how long do you think cash would last there? Etc etc. And I
occasionally even get a check in the mail myself which I can easily cash
using just my phone, no bank trip required. So in some ways I kinda like
still being a dinosaur...

On 2021-09-10 07:26, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> Neither Apple nor Google will succeed outside the US exactely because of
> the resons you mentioned. Most people want to do the business directly
> with their bank and the merchant

In Canada, debit cards are fully supported on ApplePay. These are true
debit cartds, not credit cards with 0 credit that result in issuing bank
reducing checking acocunt balance right away.

The Interac system is totally separate network with different fees for
transactions and does not involve the credit card companies. It was
originaly created in mid 1980s to allow use of any bankLs ATM for
widthdrawals. In early 1990s, expanded to use at stores for POS
transctions. (at the time mag stripe + PIN).

The advent of chip cards didn't change much except you had to leave card
in POS while entering PIN. And when contactless came around, the
companies that provide POS terminals (no longer banks) made it easy for
stores to update to support it. However, credit and debiut remain
separate functions, and one reason you are asked "debit or credit" when
paying in Canada. (though some machines detect automatically).

By the time Apple Pay arrived in Canada, contactless was already widely
deployed so it is just a matter of choosing whether card or phone was
more convenient.

FaceID reduced usefulness of iPhone because of need to double click and
authenticate prior to waving phone at POS. The advent of masks makes
FACID a pain. So paying with card is more frequent during COVID than before.

On 2021-09-10 07:33, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> Entering the PIN on a pad is not relevant from a pandemic point of view
> anyway.

Yes it is. Just because the virus renmains viable after being expelled
and the droplet evaporating (leving virus in air) doees not reduce the
risk of catching it via touching surfaces.

It is because people were conditioned to be careful about surfaces that
the trasnmission was reduced, but it doesn't mean that it isn't a potent
vector for transmission if people drop their guard.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
>>> Chris wrote
>>
>>>> Cash is outdated.
>>
>>> Cash is king! That will never change.
>>
>> It has already, hardly any employers will pay you cash anymore and
>> almost no govts make cash welfare payments anymore. Have fun renting a
>> car with cash now. You cant even buy a new car for cash here anymore.
>> Still works with your drug dealer tho.

> Employers here are forbidden now from paying cash,

Not here and a few do still pay cash, mainly casual
labor, mostly fruit pickers and work like that.

> but for a different reason.

Yeah, to try to minimise tax fraud.

> It is prohibited to pay a merchant more than 1000€ in cash.

We do too, but its $10K

> Private transactions are excepted, I understand, but you may have
> trouble when entering the cash into your bank account.

That isn't the case here.