On 11/09/2021 22.15, Rod Speed wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> Chris wrote
>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 11/09/2021 11.24, Chris wrote:
>>>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/10/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/09/2021 00.18, AJL wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money
>>>>>>>> to an individual without needing to know anything but his name. No
>>>>>>>> app info required. For example I generally mail checks in birthday
>>>>>>>> cards to grandkids around the country because it's safer than
>>>>>>>> mailing cash and I know that they got them when the check clears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That would backfire here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank account
>>>>>>> to cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the kid
>>>>>>> can not withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of age. No
>>>>>>> exceptions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high
>>>>>>> fee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here the parents can countersign the check and use their phone to
>>>>>> deposit it into their account (no bank trip required). They can then
>>>>>> later go to the store with the kid to buy the gift, give him cash, or
>>>>>> combine the money with other cash gifts to buy something really
>>>>>> special...
>>>>>
>>>>> That was banned here decades ago as it's easy to steal people's
>>>>> cheques
>>>>> that way. Only the account payee can cash/deposit a cheque.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gifting money is easy via direct deposit to their bank account.
>>>>
>>>> But not to kids, at least in my country. They can not withdraw from
>>>> their own accounts a single cent till they are 18.
>>>
>>> That does seem really very odd. How are kids supposed to manage their
>>> money? Many 15+ year olds have jobs and need to get paid here. How does
>>> that work in Spain?
>>
>> Simple: no jobs. Forbidden for minors.
>
> Even baby sitting and lawn mowing/pool cleaning/walking the dog ?

Yes.

>
>> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could be
>> jailed.
>
> That’s mad.

It is the law and the local culture. We consider your situation mad.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:
>> In article <sho2ft$ipt$1@gioia.aioe.org>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing
>>>>> the grass not at his home.
>>>>
>>>> That's un-American!
>>>
>>> In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had a
>>> unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now. I've been
>>> retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a bit anyway. But we
>>> sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And for the dumbest things.
>>> Like family fights they were mostly (but not always) civil in nature but
>>> police responded anyway to try to keep the peace. So neighbors calling
>>> the cops to complain about neighbors was definitely an American
>>> pastime...
>>
>> it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
>> $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
>>
>
> Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something big,
> like the next secret lab of Walter White?

Nope, having an abortion after 6 weeks.

And you can sue the uber driver for taking the woman to the abortionist too.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
> On 9/13/2021 11:48 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 9/13/2021 11:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
>>>> $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something big,
>>> like the next secret lab of Walter White?
>>
>> Now people are overwhelming the Texas system with fake reports, see
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/texas-abortion-law-tiktok-reddit-whistleblower>.
>> "One TikTok user said they had submitted 742 fake reports of the
>> governor, Greg Abbott, getting illegal abortions."
>
> BTW, you don't get $10,000 for turning someone in, the person you turn in
> gets fined $10,000.

Nope, its not a fine, it’s a civil suit.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote
> On 2021-09-13 04:12, Rob wrote:
>
>> Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them anymore, they
>> are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because the price is increasing
>> all the time (on the other hand that means you can save some money
>> by keeping a stock).
>
> The price of stamps goes up because of inflation.
> So whether you bought stamps 5 years ago when your money was worth more,
> or buy the stamps now when your money is worth less, it all washes out
> in the end.
> I buy rolls of 100 stamps. Last for years.

I haven't posted anything in years.
> (Of course if you had inside knowledge that the price was about to go
> up, that would be a different thing.)

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> On 11/09/2021 22.15, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>> Chris wrote
>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/09/2021 11.24, Chris wrote:
>>>>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/10/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/09/2021 00.18, AJL wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money
>>>>>>>>> to an individual without needing to know anything but his name. No
>>>>>>>>> app info required. For example I generally mail checks in birthday
>>>>>>>>> cards to grandkids around the country because it's safer than
>>>>>>>>> mailing cash and I know that they got them when the check clears.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That would backfire here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank account
>>>>>>>> to cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the kid
>>>>>>>> can not withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of age.
>>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>>> exceptions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high
>>>>>>>> fee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here the parents can countersign the check and use their phone to
>>>>>>> deposit it into their account (no bank trip required). They can then
>>>>>>> later go to the store with the kid to buy the gift, give him cash,
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> combine the money with other cash gifts to buy something really
>>>>>>> special...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was banned here decades ago as it's easy to steal people's
>>>>>> cheques
>>>>>> that way. Only the account payee can cash/deposit a cheque.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gifting money is easy via direct deposit to their bank account.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not to kids, at least in my country. They can not withdraw from
>>>>> their own accounts a single cent till they are 18.
>>>>
>>>> That does seem really very odd. How are kids supposed to manage their
>>>> money? Many 15+ year olds have jobs and need to get paid here. How does
>>>> that work in Spain?
>>>
>>> Simple: no jobs. Forbidden for minors.
>>
>> Even baby sitting and lawn mowing/pool cleaning/walking the dog ?
>
> Yes.
>
>>
>>> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could be
>>> jailed.
>>
>> That’s mad.
>
> It is the law and the local culture.

Not really the local culture given that it used to be allowed
and still is with farm kids, child actors, kids working in their
parent's shop or other small business etc.

> We consider your situation mad.

But we don’t have a 20% unemployment rate.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
> On 9/13/2021 11:53 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 9/13/2021 10:41 AM, AJL wrote:
>
>>> In my jurisdiction cops used to call them neighbor disputes...And
>>> for the dumbest things.
>
>> These still occur, and usually just a few residents are responsible
>> for a large number of such calls, i.e. "my neighbor has a bunch of
>> potted plants and they he put them too close to the property line."
>
> In my current residence (a retirement community) they call the
> HOA. I once got warning notice (with photo) for leaving my hose
> connected to the faucet which is against the rules.

Fark, so much for "the land of the free".

> But the old neighborhood I left had no HOA and is now
> a ghetto so I don't mind putting up with a little BS...

But plenty with no HOA haven't turned into a ghetto.

On 13/09/2021 22.27, 72y33 wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>> On 9/13/2021 3:47 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing the
>>> grass not at his home.
>>
>> That's un-American!
>
> But very Spanish!!!

Actually, no, we are typically shy of calling the police. Depends on the
age of the person. I know someone that will not, for example, call 112
to inform of a stray dog trapped between the walls of a highway (being a
danger to itself and to traffic). I don't know the reason, and it is not
that she hates dogs, but rather she hates being involved with the police
(my guess). I asked.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 22.17, 72y33 wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> On 13/09/2021 14.28, Mayayana wrote:
>>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>
>>> | >> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer
>>> could be
>>> | >> jailed.
>>> | >
>>> | > Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual
>>> work?
>>> |
>>> | Really. One exception: kid actors, and with a strict regulation, they
>>> | can not miss classes. Means that a theatrical spectacle with two
>>> | sessions a day need double (or more) kid cast.
>>> |
>>>    That's a good one. You can't mow lawns, but you can be in
>>> a movie where sex addicts get chopped to bits by a psychotic,
>>> pedophile Nazi. :)
>>
>> LOL
>>
>> I'm almost sure that children are mostly shielded from the actual
>> content of the movie, and they find out years later what they really
>> did :-D
>>
>>
>>
>>> | It wasn't always this way. When I was a kid, the sons of a shop owner
>>> | would work there, albeit often for free. Learning the job. A pal of
>>> mine
>>> | worked as a waiter at the family hotel/restaurant, for free AFAIK. The
>>> | money went into the family pocket, being able to keep the hotel
>>> running.
>>> |
>>> | However, the culture was that if a minor worked, it meant that the
>>> | family was poor. Often it would be considered a disgrace and dishonour
>>> | to the family, if it was not the family business and, for example,
>>> mowed
>>> | the grass on the neighbourhood or waited at a restaurant.
>>> |
>>>
>>>   I wonder if that's more a class thing? In the US, rich kids
>>> are likely to be making connections rather than working.
>>> They might spend their time doing things like sailing with other
>>> rich kids. There isn't an expectation that they'd ever be required
>>> to do actual labor.
>>>
>>>   But for the average kid, a job is a way to be independent and
>>> learn about the idea of making their own living. My first job was
>>> at 13. I worked for old ladies, cleaning their houses and doing
>>> minor repairs. Then I had a paper route. Then McDonalds hired
>>> me. (Illegal, technically, because I wasn't quite 16. But work, in the
>>> US, is next to godliness. Any authorities who caught me would have
>>> thought I was a good kid with healthy ambition. The US has been
>>> heavily affected by Christian sexual perversion from both the Puritan
>>> and Catholic streams. If you're working you can't be masturbating
>>> or indulging in sensual pleasures.)
>>
>> I'm familiar with the reasoning in other countries.
>>
>> But the reasoning here when children work was allowed was that if the
>> son was working, the father (no talk of the mother) was a useless man
>> not able to support his family, it would be a shame on all of them.
>> Worse if it was a girl.
>>
>> The exception was working on the family business: that was learning the
>> family business.
>>
>> I remember when my mother, who was a teacher before marrying, wanted to
>> go back to school when I was about 12 or 14, that my father was very
>> angry and there were rows for the first time at home. And he was much
>> more modern, tolerant and "European" than average, imagine a typical
>> macho man.
>>
>> Years later, they were both happy about my mother decision, but at the
>> time it was a problem.
>>
>> Neither of them would accept me having a job, "wasting time working at a
>> job" instead of studying full time.
>>
>>
>> Another factor here against teenagers working is that they steal jobs
>> from grown ups supporting a family. The teenager may work for a little
>> money that can not pay the cost of living on his own, would be seen in
>> bad light, similar to paperless inmigrants. In a country where we have
>> close to 20% unemployment, that's important.
>>
>>
>> What is normal in a country can be bonkers in another country, and we
>> have to accept that. Learn and accept the differences ;-)
>
> Or realise that it makes no sense to ban kids from working.

That will not happen. It makes full sense to us. It is you who are
bonkers. :-P

And it happens to be in agreement with the UN recommendations or decisions.

> There is a reason you lot have a 20% unemployment rate
> and better organised countries don’t.

LOL

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 22.47, Rod Speed wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> On 11/09/2021 22.15, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>> Chris wrote
>>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/09/2021 11.24, Chris wrote:
>>>>>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/09/2021 00.18, AJL wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer
>>>>>>>>>> money
>>>>>>>>>> to an individual without needing to know anything but his
>>>>>>>>>> name. No
>>>>>>>>>> app info required. For example I generally mail checks in
>>>>>>>>>> birthday
>>>>>>>>>> cards to grandkids around the country because it's safer than
>>>>>>>>>> mailing cash and I know that they got them when the check clears.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That would backfire here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank account
>>>>>>>>> to cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the kid
>>>>>>>>> can not withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of
>>>>>>>>> age. No
>>>>>>>>> exceptions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high
>>>>>>>>> fee.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here the parents can countersign the check and use their phone to
>>>>>>>> deposit it into their account (no bank trip required). They can
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> later go to the store with the kid to buy the gift, give him
>>>>>>>> cash, or
>>>>>>>> combine the money with other cash gifts to buy something really
>>>>>>>> special...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was banned here decades ago as it's easy to steal people's
>>>>>>> cheques
>>>>>>> that way. Only the account payee can cash/deposit a cheque.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gifting money is easy via direct deposit to their bank account.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But not to kids, at least in my country. They can not withdraw from
>>>>>> their own accounts a single cent till they are 18.
>>>>>
>>>>> That does seem really very odd. How are kids supposed to manage their
>>>>> money? Many 15+ year olds have jobs and need to get paid here. How
>>>>> does
>>>>> that work in Spain?
>>>>
>>>> Simple: no jobs. Forbidden for minors.
>>>
>>> Even baby sitting and lawn mowing/pool cleaning/walking the dog ?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>>
>>>> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could be
>>>> jailed.
>>>
>>> That’s mad.
>>
>> It is the law and the local culture.
>
> Not really the local culture given that it used to be allowed
> and still is with farm kids, child actors, kids working in their
> parent's shop or other small business etc.

No, kids no longer work in their parent shop or business. Not if they
are seen. They can not work for money, so they have no incentive. The
culture has changed, and did so easily.

>
>> We consider your situation mad.
>
> But we don’t have a 20% unemployment rate.

Which would be worse by sending kids to work.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 13/09/2021 17:16, AJL wrote:
>>> On 9/13/2021 1:02 AM, Rob wrote:
>>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 9/12/2021 12:05 PM, Rob wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Here, banks (and lots of other businesses) don't care at all
>>>>>> about existing customers. Only new customers are important.
>>>
>>>>> Existing customers often become someone's new customers if the
>>>>> wanted services are lacking...
>>>
>>> Wells Fargo is an example of a US bank with services lacking including
>>> fraud on the customer - Google it if curious.
>>>
>>>> With the banking system as it is here, that is only a small risk. It
>>>> is so much effort to move everything to a new bank and new account
>>>> number, and the situation will be the same at that other bank. So
>>>> most customers stay at the same bank for life.
>>>
>>> Many banks here advertise their rates and services often. (Some
>>> in my junk mail.) I doubt they'd waste their money if the ads weren't
>>> effective at drawing in new customers. Bank competition is a
>>> good thing for the customer. Competitive cashback credit card rates for
>>> example...
>>
>> Here we have a Switch service to simplify the move from one bank to
>> another. Basically, you sign up with the new bank and they do the rest
>> incl. transferring direct debits, standing orders and any account
>> balance. It's guaranteed and takes 7 working days.
>
> Aha, that is nice. Our switch service here is much more primitive.
> It basically means that you get to keep your old account number for
> 13 months and any direct debits or other usage of the old account
> number is forwarded to your new account, AND results in a message to
> you so you can arrange for the new account number to be registered at
> the company doing the direct debit.
>
> Basically, you perform all the work yourself and the switch service
> only serves as a reminder service and avoids the situation where your
> direct debits silently fail and you get in trouble because you don't pay.
>
> With IBAN it would have been possible to make account numbers portable
> across banks, just like telephone numbers are over here, but the banks
> made sure that is not going to happen, neither now or in the future,
> by making the bank-specific prefix a 4-character abbreviation of the
> bank NAME. So the name appears clearly visible in every Dutch IBAN.
>
> Other countries were more clever and used a numeric code, so in the
> future it will be possible to let that lose its meaning and just make
> the prefix+account number a "national account number" that with the
> country prefix+checksum is portable across banks.
>
> Dutch IBAN are like this:
> NLxxBBBBnnnnnnnnnn
>
> NL=Netherlands
> xx=the IBAN check digits (calculated from the entire number)
> BBBB=the 4-character abbreviation of the bank name, like ABNA or INGB
> nnnnnnnnnn=the original account number at that bank
>
> The account numbers used before the IBAN conversion already contained a
> 2-digit code for the bank (except for old Postbank accounts), so the
> inclusion of the bankname is mostly redundant. And using a name
> instead of some numeric code means the bank is visible in the number,
> of course no bank would want to use accountnumbers with another bank's
> name in it, so they will never be portable.

It's the same the UK. We also have the 4-letter bank code. However, our
banks have changed name so often that the codes sometimes refer to previous
names that no longer exist e.g. Santander code is "ABBY" for "Abbey
National" and TSB is "MIDL" after "Midland Bank".

I think the reason that bank account numbers can't be moved is that they
are linked to a physical branch.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/09/2021 23.19, Chris wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 11/09/2021 14.22, Chris wrote:
>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/09/2021 11.24, Chris wrote:
>>>>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/10/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/09/2021 00.18, AJL wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money
>>>>>>>>> to an individual without needing to know anything but his name. No
>>>>>>>>> app info required. For example I generally mail checks in birthday
>>>>>>>>> cards to grandkids around the country because it's safer than
>>>>>>>>> mailing cash and I know that they got them when the check clears.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That would backfire here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank account
>>>>>>>> to cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the kid
>>>>>>>> can not withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of age. No
>>>>>>>> exceptions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high
>>>>>>>> fee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here the parents can countersign the check and use their phone to
>>>>>>> deposit it into their account (no bank trip required). They can then
>>>>>>> later go to the store with the kid to buy the gift, give him cash, or
>>>>>>> combine the money with other cash gifts to buy something really special...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was banned here decades ago as it's easy to steal people's cheques
>>>>>> that way. Only the account payee can cash/deposit a cheque.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gifting money is easy via direct deposit to their bank account.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not to kids, at least in my country. They can not withdraw from
>>>>> their own accounts a single cent till they are 18.
>>>>
>>>> That does seem really very odd. How are kids supposed to manage their
>>>> money? Many 15+ year olds have jobs and need to get paid here. How does
>>>> that work in Spain?
>>>
>>> Simple: no jobs. Forbidden for minors.
>>
>> 16 yo aren't minors here. At 16 you can leave home, leave school, get
>> married, vote in some elections and of course get a job and pay tax. You're
>> limited in how many hours you can work, however.
>
> They have to emancipate from their parents, either by agreement or with
> a court order. Means he lives independently, in his/her own house.
>
> That's a serious move. Happens in broken families.
>
>>
>>> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could be
>>> jailed.
>>
>> Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual work?
>
> Really. One exception: kid actors, and with a strict regulation, they
> can not miss classes. Means that a theatrical spectacle with two
> sessions a day need double (or more) kid cast.
>
>
> It wasn't always this way. When I was a kid, the sons of a shop owner
> would work there, albeit often for free. Learning the job. A pal of mine
> worked as a waiter at the family hotel/restaurant, for free AFAIK. The
> money went into the family pocket, being able to keep the hotel running.
>
> However, the culture was that if a minor worked, it meant that the
> family was poor. Often it would be considered a disgrace and dishonour
> to the family, if it was not the family business and, for example, mowed
> the grass on the neighbourhood or waited at a restaurant.
>
>
> There was so much abuse that the situation was reversed completely in
> the law.

That's all really fascinating. I had no idea it was like that in Spain.
Thanks.

> But I know that farmer boys usually "farm". There is a famous youtuber
> kid around here, and what he posts are precisely farm task and anecdotes.

Yeah how do you stop a farmer's child from helping in the sheds or the
fields? It's not really work. Seems unenforceable.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:
>> In article <sho2ft$ipt$1@gioia.aioe.org>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing
>>>>> the grass not at his home.
>>>>
>>>> That's un-American!
>>>
>>> In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had a
>>> unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now. I've been
>>> retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a bit anyway. But we
>>> sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And for the dumbest things.
>>> Like family fights they were mostly (but not always) civil in nature but
>>> police responded anyway to try to keep the peace. So neighbors calling
>>> the cops to complain about neighbors was definitely an American pastime...
>>
>> it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
>> $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
>>
>
> Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something big,
> like the next secret lab of Walter White?

It's far, far worse :(
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58406496

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> On 13/09/2021 22.17, 72y33 wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>> On 13/09/2021 14.28, Mayayana wrote:
>>>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>>
>>>> | >> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer
>>>> could be
>>>> | >> jailed.
>>>> | >
>>>> | > Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual
>>>> work?
>>>> |
>>>> | Really. One exception: kid actors, and with a strict regulation, they
>>>> | can not miss classes. Means that a theatrical spectacle with two
>>>> | sessions a day need double (or more) kid cast.
>>>> |
>>>> That's a good one. You can't mow lawns, but you can be in
>>>> a movie where sex addicts get chopped to bits by a psychotic,
>>>> pedophile Nazi. :)
>>>
>>> LOL
>>>
>>> I'm almost sure that children are mostly shielded from the actual
>>> content of the movie, and they find out years later what they really
>>> did :-D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> | It wasn't always this way. When I was a kid, the sons of a shop owner
>>>> | would work there, albeit often for free. Learning the job. A pal of
>>>> mine
>>>> | worked as a waiter at the family hotel/restaurant, for free AFAIK.
>>>> The
>>>> | money went into the family pocket, being able to keep the hotel
>>>> running.
>>>> |
>>>> | However, the culture was that if a minor worked, it meant that the
>>>> | family was poor. Often it would be considered a disgrace and
>>>> dishonour
>>>> | to the family, if it was not the family business and, for example,
>>>> mowed
>>>> | the grass on the neighbourhood or waited at a restaurant.
>>>> |
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if that's more a class thing? In the US, rich kids
>>>> are likely to be making connections rather than working.
>>>> They might spend their time doing things like sailing with other
>>>> rich kids. There isn't an expectation that they'd ever be required
>>>> to do actual labor.
>>>>
>>>> But for the average kid, a job is a way to be independent and
>>>> learn about the idea of making their own living. My first job was
>>>> at 13. I worked for old ladies, cleaning their houses and doing
>>>> minor repairs. Then I had a paper route. Then McDonalds hired
>>>> me. (Illegal, technically, because I wasn't quite 16. But work, in the
>>>> US, is next to godliness. Any authorities who caught me would have
>>>> thought I was a good kid with healthy ambition. The US has been
>>>> heavily affected by Christian sexual perversion from both the Puritan
>>>> and Catholic streams. If you're working you can't be masturbating
>>>> or indulging in sensual pleasures.)
>>>
>>> I'm familiar with the reasoning in other countries.
>>>
>>> But the reasoning here when children work was allowed was that if the
>>> son was working, the father (no talk of the mother) was a useless man
>>> not able to support his family, it would be a shame on all of them.
>>> Worse if it was a girl.
>>>
>>> The exception was working on the family business: that was learning the
>>> family business.
>>>
>>> I remember when my mother, who was a teacher before marrying, wanted to
>>> go back to school when I was about 12 or 14, that my father was very
>>> angry and there were rows for the first time at home. And he was much
>>> more modern, tolerant and "European" than average, imagine a typical
>>> macho man.
>>>
>>> Years later, they were both happy about my mother decision, but at the
>>> time it was a problem.
>>>
>>> Neither of them would accept me having a job, "wasting time working at a
>>> job" instead of studying full time.
>>>
>>>
>>> Another factor here against teenagers working is that they steal jobs
>>> from grown ups supporting a family. The teenager may work for a little
>>> money that can not pay the cost of living on his own, would be seen in
>>> bad light, similar to paperless inmigrants. In a country where we have
>>> close to 20% unemployment, that's important.
>>>
>>>
>>> What is normal in a country can be bonkers in another country, and we
>>> have to accept that. Learn and accept the differences ;-)
>>
>> Or realise that it makes no sense to ban kids from working.
>
> That will not happen. It makes full sense to us. It is you who are
> bonkers. :-P
>
> And it happens to be in agreement with the UN recommendations or
> decisions.

There never has been any UN recommendation or decision that no kids
should ever be allowed to do any work like baby sitting, dog walking,
washing cars, lawn mowing or working in their parent's business or farm.

>> There is a reason you lot have a 20% unemployment rate
>> and better organised countries don’t.
>
> LOL

On 2021-09-13 11:02:27 +0000, Carlos E. R. said:
> On 13/09/2021 10.02, Rob wrote:
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>> On 9/12/2021 12:05 PM, Rob wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Here, banks (and lots of other businesses) don't care at all about
>>>> existing customers. Only new customers are important.
>>>
>>> Existing customers often become someone's new customers if the wanted
>>> services are lacking...
>>
>> With the banking system as it is here, that is only a small risk.
>> It is so much effort to move everything to a new bank and new account
>> number, and the situation will be the same at that other bank.
>> So most customers stay at the same bank for life.
>
> The other day I heard an advert from a bank saying that they would
> handle *all* the moving.

The problem with changing banks, or providers of other services like
telecoms, electricity, etc., is that *when* something goes wrong during
the switchover they both sit around blaming the other without bothering
to actually fix it, leaving the customer with no service at all. :-\

Plus, you then have to inform everywhere about the new account number
or phone number (although transferrable phone numbers have taken care
of that issue).

Realitisically any so-called "savings" you supposedly make by switching
companies is so minor that it's not usually worth all the effort in the
first place.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> On 13/09/2021 22.47, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>> On 11/09/2021 22.15, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>>> Chris wrote
>>>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/09/2021 11.24, Chris wrote:
>>>>>>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/09/2021 00.18, AJL wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer
>>>>>>>>>>> money
>>>>>>>>>>> to an individual without needing to know anything but his
>>>>>>>>>>> name. No
>>>>>>>>>>> app info required. For example I generally mail checks in
>>>>>>>>>>> birthday
>>>>>>>>>>> cards to grandkids around the country because it's safer than
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing cash and I know that they got them when the check
>>>>>>>>>>> clears.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That would backfire here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank
>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>> to cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the
>>>>>>>>>> kid
>>>>>>>>>> can not withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of
>>>>>>>>>> age. No
>>>>>>>>>> exceptions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high
>>>>>>>>>> fee.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here the parents can countersign the check and use their phone to
>>>>>>>>> deposit it into their account (no bank trip required). They can
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> later go to the store with the kid to buy the gift, give him
>>>>>>>>> cash, or
>>>>>>>>> combine the money with other cash gifts to buy something really
>>>>>>>>> special...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That was banned here decades ago as it's easy to steal people's
>>>>>>>> cheques
>>>>>>>> that way. Only the account payee can cash/deposit a cheque.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gifting money is easy via direct deposit to their bank account.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But not to kids, at least in my country. They can not withdraw from
>>>>>>> their own accounts a single cent till they are 18.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That does seem really very odd. How are kids supposed to manage their
>>>>>> money? Many 15+ year olds have jobs and need to get paid here. How
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> that work in Spain?
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple: no jobs. Forbidden for minors.
>>>>
>>>> Even baby sitting and lawn mowing/pool cleaning/walking the dog ?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could
>>>>> be
>>>>> jailed.
>>>>
>>>> That’s mad.
>>>
>>> It is the law and the local culture.
>>
>> Not really the local culture given that it used to be allowed
>> and still is with farm kids, child actors, kids working in their
>> parent's shop or other small business etc.
>
> No, kids no longer work in their parent shop or business. Not if they
> are seen. They can not work for money, so they have no incentive. The
> culture has changed, and did so easily.
>
>>
>>> We consider your situation mad.
>>
>> But we don’t have a 20% unemployment rate.
>
> Which would be worse by sending kids to work.

That is very arguable if the economy does much better with kids allowed
to do the sort of work that they are allowed to in other countries.

On 09/13/2021 10:47 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 18.16, AJL wrote:
>> On 9/13/2021 1:12 AM, Rob wrote:
>
>>> Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them anymore, they
>>> are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because the price is
>>> increasing all the time (on the other hand that means you can save
>>> some money by keeping a stock).
>>
>> Same here. We call them Forever Stamps.
>
> Nice. I have not seen those.

I think Costco gives a discount. It's essentially a free loan to the
USPS. You can't use them for mail to other countries, though -- for
that you have to buy stamps marked with a value.

There are also 'forever' stamps for the discounted second and subsequent
ounces.

It used to be simple. Now there are restrictions on the sizes and
thicknesses of various sorts of mail which require various amounts of
postage.

--
Cheers, Bev
You need only three tools: WD-40, duct tape and a hammer. If it doesn't
move and it should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use duct tape.
If you can't fix it with a hammer you've got an electrical problem.

On 9/13/2021 1:49 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote

>> In my current residence (a retirement community) they call the
>> HOA. I once got warning notice (with photo) for leaving my hose
>> connected to the faucet which is against the rules.

> Fark, so much for "the land of the free".

Yup. Free from my neighbor using an old canvas tent for a garage which
is what's next to my old house now. On the other hand my then neighbor
was probably glad to see my 60' ham tower leave. Win-win.

>> But the old neighborhood I left had no HOA and is now a ghetto so I
>> don't mind putting up with a little BS...

> But plenty with no HOA haven't turned into a ghetto.

Worldwide? Definitely a true statement. Locally? Not so much...

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
>>> In my current residence (a retirement community) they call the
>>> HOA. I once got warning notice (with photo) for leaving my hose
>>> connected to the faucet which is against the rules.
>
>> Fark, so much for "the land of the free".
>
> Yup. Free from my neighbor using an old canvas tent for a garage which
> is what's next to my old house now. On the other hand my then neighbor
> was probably glad to see my 60' ham tower leave. Win-win.
>
>>> But the old neighborhood I left had no HOA and is now a ghetto so I
>>> don't mind putting up with a little BS...
>
>> But plenty with no HOA haven't turned into a ghetto.
>
> Worldwide? Definitely a true statement.

Given that no one else is actually stupid
enough to have HOAs that can tell you that you
can't leave a hose on the tap when not in use.

> Locally? Not so much...

That's bullshit.

On 9/13/2021 1:03 PM, Rob wrote:

<snip>

> That happened here as well but I think it is more due to Covid rules
> and procedures than due to employee shortage. There may be some
> employee shortage because employees were temporarily layed off and
> were not interested to come back, but also the restaurant owners
> have to operate at lowest possible cost to cover their losses and
> capacity reduction and cannot afford as many servants anymore.

Even pre-Covid we were seeing new restaurants moving to reduce the need
for labor, not just because of the cost but because of such an acute
labor shortage.

I'd rather have more people preparing the food than performing tasks
that can require needless extra staff performing tasks that are easily
automated.

It used to be that restaurants in my town complained that they had too
much lunch business but that it wasn't very profitable because lunch
prices were lower plus almost no one bought any alcoholic beverages
which have huge margins. But now the lunch business is terrible because
of remote working and a lack of catering business, but the dinner
business is good.

We lost one super-popular breakfast and lunch chain because the lunch
and catering business all but disappeared during Covid, and even when
this is all over there will still be a great deal of remote working.
That chain had remote ordering and in-store kiosk ordering down to a
science, with only one employee needed for the rare customer that
insisted on in-person ordering. Their ordering app on the web was
awesome. Now the original owners bought back the name and have reopened
one location (used to be more than 55 locations)
<https://www.specialtys.com/FAQ.aspx>.

Busy restaurants can also serve more people if they don't have people
sitting at a table for 20 minutes waiting for their food. I remember
going to a super-busy restaurant in Taipei where you placed your order
and they told you what time your food and table would be ready, which
reduced throughput by upwards of 30%.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the reason that bank account numbers can't be moved is that they
> are linked to a physical branch.

But that used to be the same for telephone numbers, which described
the extension's location in the hierarchy of exchanges.

However today the numbers are first looked up in a number location
database and that can route the call to any operator of any exchange.

The same could be done for bank numbers, it is only the banks that
do not want it, and the stupid financial authority that allowed that.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2021-09-13 04:12, Rob wrote:
>
>> Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them anymore, they
>> are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because the price is increasing
>> all the time (on the other hand that means you can save some money
>> by keeping a stock).
>
> The price of stamps goes up because of inflation.

Of course, it always did. But now it also goes up because of decreasing
demand. As I explained before: the stamp price appears to be calculated
from the desired turnover and the expected number of letters sent.
That is sort of reasonable, because below a certain number of letters
sent the total cost of the system does not depend much on the number
of letters sent.

> So whether you bought stamps 5 years ago when your money was worth more,
> or buy the stamps now when your money is worth less, it all washes out
> in the end.
> I buy rolls of 100 stamps. Last for years.

Before this "stamp for mailing a letter" thing was introduced here,
we had stamps with a monetary value and a tariff list for each service
(sending a card, a letter, printed matter, etc).
When you had bought 50c stamps and the rate for a letter was increased
to 55c, you had to buy separate 5c stamps to be able to use your
existing stock of 50c stamps.
Now, you can buy stamps and use them 5 years later, at a time when
they cost a lot more when bought new.
(and believe me, the rate at which they increase is much much higher
than the interest on your bank account)

> (Of course if you had inside knowledge that the price was about to go
> up, that would be a different thing.)

The knowledge that the price is about to go up is not exactly well
hidden, maybe the knowledge by how much it is going up this time.

On Sep 13, 2021, AJL wrote
(in article <sho5rl$8e7$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

> On 9/13/2021 11:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:
> > > In article<sho2ft$ipt$1@gioia.aioe.org>, AJL<noemail@none.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid
> > > > > > mowing the grass not at his home.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's un-American!
> > > >
> > > > In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had
> > > > a unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now.
> > > > I've been retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a
> > > > bit anyway. But we sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And
> > > > for the dumbest things. Like family fights they were mostly (but
> > > > not always) civil in nature but police responded anyway to try to
> > > > keep the peace. So neighbors calling the cops to complain about
> > > > neighbors was definitely an American pastime...
> > >
> > > it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can
> > > make $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
> >
> > Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something
> > big, like the next secret lab of Walter White?
>
> In Texas you can now civilly sue your neighbor (or anyone) if she has an
> abortion after 6 weeks. Only in America...

I think you mean, “only in Texas.” ...for now.

--
Regards,
Savageduck

On Sep 13, 2021, sms wrote
(in article <sho6ek$tbt$1@dont-email.me>):

> On 9/13/2021 11:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
> > > $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
> >
> > Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something big,
> > like the next secret lab of Walter White?
>
> Now people are overwhelming the Texas system with fake reports, see
> <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/texas-abortion-law-tiktok-reddit-whistleblower>.
>
> "One TikTok user said they had submitted 742 fake reports of the
> governor, Greg Abbott, getting illegal abortions.”
I thought Greg Abbott was an illegal abortion.

--
Regards,
Savageduck

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Probably we are a bit ahead of the curve
>> due to wide adoption of new technology.
>
> That’s very arguable with poor adoption of apple pay etc.

Adaption of technology is not the same as adaption of US technology!

> How does the dearth of a decent postal service affect
> the elderly who find it much harder to communicate
> electronically ?

But they don't... the elderly find it convenient to be able
to communicate (and order things) from the safety of their homes
instead of having to go on the street. Especially in winter.

>> But I think it will happen everwhere.
>
> Change certainly will but I cant see the postal service
> dying completely any time soon. Or the use of cash either.

Cash will probably die sooner than the postal system, yes.
Other European countries are further ahead in that.
We already entered the phase where posession of large amounts of
(and large denominations of) cash is considered suspicious and likely
to point to criminal activity. During the entire time the Euro
has been in circulatoon, over 15 years now, I have never had a
note of more than 50 euro in my posession, and the past 3 years
or so never more than 20 euro. Because amounts larger than 50
euro are never paid in cash.

>> The postal system is a labor-intensive system for a
>> purpose that is being replaced by other technologies,
>
> Yes, but that clearly hasn’t stopped the massive boom
> in the parcel service where that is even more the case.

Ok but let's be clear: I am only talking about the letter system
and not the parcel system. These are completely separate things here.

>> and in an economic system that can only flourish in the
>> presence of growth, it gets in a rapid downward spiral.
>
> That clearly isn't true of junk mail.

Maybe in the US? Addressed junk mail is on the way down here,
and unaddressed mail can be rejected using a standard sticker
on your mailbox, which most people have.

>> Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them
>> anymore, they are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because
>> the price is increasing all the time (on the other hand that
>> means you can save some money by keeping a stock).
>
> Our price doesn’t, because the federal govt has
> to approve the increase in the price of the stamp.

The postal system is not a government controlled operation here,
it is just a commercial company. That originates back in the day
that the neoliberals believed that any state companies had to be
split and sold off, because operating things commercially was so
much more efficient and cheaper for the user. Of course it wasn't,
but this move (partly mandated by the EU) was never turned back.

Before this, most European countries had a state-operated company
for Post, Telegraphy and Telephone. That was then split in a
Post and a Telecom company, and competition was allowed on each
of those. So we got the Post companies from other countries and
some new private operations competing in an ever shrinking market.

In Telecom that worked slightly better as that was an expanding
market, but still we had some undesirable effects as a result,
it still means the internet speed we can get is lower than it could
be in some areas.

>> I think the postal system will go the same way
>> as the steam locomotive and the tow barge.
>
> I doubt it, because everyone doesn’t have
> some way of communicating electronically.

But such a system cannot operate based on the requirements of just
a small group of users...
The Telegram and Telex services also ceased to be.

>> Things that were established when there was a
>> demand, and phased out when the demand ceased.
>
> But demand wont cease with a postal
> service. In fact its booming with parcels.

As mentioned above, I am discussing letter service.
Parcel service is booming, but it is a different operation.
Compare it to Telex vs Phone service. We have no Telex network
anymore, but we do have a Phone network.
(and even there, the fixed-line Phone network is mostly being
replaced by the mobile network. and the "fixed lines" that remain
more and more are VoIP service on internet)

On 2021-09-13 21:38:27 +0000, The Real Bev said:

> On 09/13/2021 10:47 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 13/09/2021 18.16, AJL wrote:
>>> On 9/13/2021 1:12 AM, Rob wrote:
>>
>>>> Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them anymore, they
>>>> are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because the price is
>>>> increasing all the time (on the other hand that means you can save
>>>> some money by keeping a stock).
>>>
>>> Same here. We call them Forever Stamps.
>>
>> Nice. I have not seen those.
>
> I think Costco gives a discount. It's essentially a free loan to the
> USPS. You can't use them for mail to other countries, though -- for
> that you have to buy stamps marked with a value.
>
> There are also 'forever' stamps for the discounted second and
> subsequent ounces.
>
> It used to be simple. Now there are restrictions on the sizes and
> thicknesses of various sorts of mail which require various amounts of
> postage.

In New Zealand there are two main types of postage stamp ... the New
Zealand Post stamps have values on them while the KiwiStamp doesn't (it
is equivalent to the lowest value NZ Post stamp, so larger envelopes
simply require two or more of them). Mail with either stamp type is
permitted in NZ Post mailboxes and delivered by NZ Post.

Whenever NZ Post declares that they going to raise prices yet again on
a particular date, the boxes of KiwiStamps are quickly hoarded by
people before that date ... well, the few people that bother to post
anything these days.

I've still got some stamps remaining in the box I bought years ago when
a normal letter cost 50c and post was delivered every day ... now the
price is $1.50 - three times as much and only delivered to resdental
addresses every other day!