Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote

>>> Often, when one bank takes over another, you'd think that branches that
>>> are within close proximity would consolidate, but that's not usually the
>>> case, they'll continue to operate both branches.
>>
>> maybe if they're a block apart, but otherwise, there's no reason to do
>> that because it would inconvenience existing customers.
>
> That is the difference between here and US. Here, banks (and lots of
> other businesses) don't care at all about existing customers.
> Only new customers are important.

I think the real reason for the difference is that the US has lots
of tiny little local banks. No one else does things so stupidly.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
> Rob wrote
>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>>>> Often, when one bank takes over another, you'd think that branches that
>>>> are within close proximity would consolidate, but that's not usually
>>>> the
>>>> case, they'll continue to operate both branches.
>>>
>>> maybe if they're a block apart, but otherwise, there's no reason to do
>>> that because it would inconvenience existing customers.
>>
>> That is the difference between here and US. Here, banks (and lots of
>> other businesses) don't care at all about existing customers.
>> Only new customers are important.
>
> My area may be an outlier in opening new branches because of the unique
> demographics.
>
> The reality in the U.S. is that branch banks are closing in record
> numbers. "Why Are Banks Closing Branches? A record number of bank branches
> closed in 2020," see
> <https://magazine.northeast.aaa.com/daily/money/savings/why-are-banks-closing-branches/>.
>
> nospam is wrong of course™ when he says "there's no reason to do that
> <close branches>."
>
> "When banks further compare the cost of operating a brick-and-mortar
> location to simply offering their services online, the choice to close
> branches becomes even easier."
>
> It costs a lot of money to operate a branch, between rent, staffing, and
> overhead. It makes sense to consolidate branches when practical.

Quite a few of our banks don’t have any physical branches at all or just
the one and they are almost all national, no local banks like in the USA.

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote
> sms wrote

>> I am surprised that in the U.S. the large banks keep building and
>> operating more branches; not just leasing space in a shopping center,

> This is likely real estate play by banks.

Nope, plenty here don’t even own the standalone bank branches
anymore, they have sold them off and lease them back.

> Also, once you need to build a "bank", the shipping centre ownwer
> will ding you for putting a safe in a store because the mall owner
> needs to bulldoze/dynamite/jackhammer that safe out.

Doesn’t explain why most are in malls now.

> Also, consider failed businesses that leave banks owning
> the property. If the market is not good, the bank might as
> well put a branch in a property to not only make use of it,

Never seen any bank do anything like that here.

> but also try to keep neighybourhood
> from losing overall value, which would
> put more of its customers "underwater".

Don’t buy that either.

On 2021-09-12 09:12:29 +0000, Rob said:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>> On 9/11/2021 12:03 PM, Rob wrote:
>>>
>>> We have no cashier services anymore. Even at bank offices (which
>>> hardly exist anymore) you need to get your cash from an ATM. In a
>>> larger bank office there is a sideroom with one or two ATMs where you
>>> can possibly withdraw larger amounts in a bit more secure
>>> environment than out on the street.
>>
>> My bank's outside ATMs (2) allow $1000 US per day cash withdrawal. Or
>> you can go inside and get more. Within 5 miles of my house I would
>> estimate that there are at least 15 full service brick and mortar bank
>> branches. I live in a suburb of the 5th largest city in the US so
>> perhaps that makes the difference?
>
> Banking in the US is completely different from the EU.
> Within the EU there is probably a lot of variation, but here in
> the Netherlands most bank branch offices have either closed or have
> been transformed into "advisory" offices where no actual money is
> handled. And those are now being replaced by "online" services as
> well, where you can talk to an advisor through a video chat.

Yep. It's similar here in New Zealand.

Lazy banks are doing less and less while charging the customer more and
more - branches being closed, cheques disappear, trying to force
everyone to doing the work for the bank via internet banking, etc.
Meanwhile they greedily rake in billion dollar profits. X-(

Not only banks either. ISPs are another example where they took away
newsservers, website space, and email addresses, while raising prices.
Post office branches are disppearing too and services there are being
cut (no sea-mail shipping option, mail delievered to resdiential
addresses every other day instead of every day, etc.), but prices keep
increasing.

On 9/12/2021 1:20 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2021-09-12 13:09, sms wrote:
>
>> I am surprised that in the U.S. the large banks keep building and
>> operating more branches; not just leasing space in a shopping center,
>
>
> This is likely real estate play by banks. Also, once you need to build a
> "bank", the shipping centre ownwer will ding you for putting a safe in a
> store because the mall owner needs to bulldoze/dynamite/jackhammer that
> safe out.
>
> Also, consider failed businesses that leave banks owning the property.
> If the market is not good, the bank might as well put a branch in a
> property to not only make use of it, but also try to keep neighybourhood
> from losing overall value, which would put more of its customers
> "underwater".

Well apparently I should not have extrapolated what has been happening
in my area onto the rest of the U.S.. In reality, the closure of
branches accelerated during 2020, see
<https://magazine.northeast.aaa.com/daily/money/savings/why-are-banks-closing-branches/>.

What surprised me the most in my area was that so many of the new bank
branches were new construction, not just leasing some space in a strip
shopping center, though we have that too. And not just banks, but credit
unions as well.
<https://goo.gl/maps/bctk5GEXGF5JnFZT9>
<https://goo.gl/maps/iBxa7wfqEG7aUn329>
<https://goo.gl/maps/gm1RyFagvquSb2nw7>

In article <shlrfe$12c$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> Not only banks either. ISPs are another example where they took away
> newsservers, website space, and email addresses, while raising prices.

only newsservers are mostly gone because too few people used them to
justify their existence.

otherwise, isps have increased website space, while cutting prices and
increasing speeds. email addresses are available from numerous
providers so there's no need for isps to offer more than one, although
some do.

In article <shltn7$h77$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> In reality, the closure of
> branches accelerated during 2020,

a lot of closures accelerated during 2020.

> see
>
> <https://magazine.northeast.aaa.com/daily/m

citing an automotive group for a financial reference is hilarious.

from august, 2020:
<https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-new
s-headlines/us-bank-branch-openings-outpace-closings-for-1st-time-in-alm
ost-9-years-59894420>
US bank branch openings outpace closings for 1st time in almost
9 years

For the first time since October 2011, U.S. banks opened more
branches than they closed.

During July, U.S. banks and thrifts closed 60 branches nationwide,
while opening 96, according to S&P Global Market Intelligence data,
which does not include temporary bank closures, such as those caused
by the COVID-19 pandemic. Since 2008, the trend has generally been
toward net closures, with few respites, but ongoing branch expansion
plans for some banks led to the first month in almost nine years in
which openings outpaced closings.

"This 'branches are closing' theme has been oversold for quite some
time. Sure, there's always going to be closures, but there's always
going to be openings as well," Dave Martin, founder of bankmechanics,
said in an interview. "The branch is much more than transactions ‹
it's your presence and where you keep your bankers."
....
"If [Chase] is building branches, that tells you something," Martin
said. "[Banks] are not abandoning branches in any way, shape or
form." Physical presence is still vital for banks, especially when
entering a new market, he said.

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

| >>> It lives longer on a surface that is not porous than in air. (because
it
| >>> remains surrounded by water for longer).
| >>
| >> nospam is wrong of course™.
| >
| > Not this time.
| | That would be nice, but unfortunately he is still wrong, at least
| according to the CDC.
| | It's true that most people get infected through breathing in droplets
| containing the virus, but, while the probability is low, it is still
| possible to get infected through contact with surfaces:

Both can be true: That it lives longer on a surface but
is more commonly transmitted through the air. "Lives", in this
case, is poetic license. It's not much more than a packet of
organic compounds capable of reproducing itself if it has a
host. But it's held together by an oil coating (and perhaps
partly water?) so it breaks down easily. I've also read that
flu is worse in the winter for the same reason: humin air is
more likely to break down the wrapper.

It makes sense that an active particle would have a better
chance getting directly into the nose or throat, rather than
getting onto a hand and then into an eye or outside edge of
the nose.

Since it is a lipid coated virus (which many are) I've been
taking and storing BHT, which acts to dissolve lipid-coated
virus wrappers in the bloodstream. Alcohol is also working to
break down the coating. As is soap. It doesn't really kill it.
It makes it fall apart. There's not enough of a structure to
"kill" it.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> asked
> only newsservers are mostly gone because too few people used them to
> justify their existence.

I agree with nospam that the ISPs wanted to ditch nntp servers for the
simple reason that very few people used them... but what bothered me was
that they used as their pretext child porn... which was bullshit.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cuomo+%22child+porn%22+at%26T+usenet+dropped

At the time I was on AT&T where AT&T teamed up with Cuomo in their "final
solution" for child porn bullshit.

These sleazebag politicians like Cuomo make these deals with the ISP's to
promote this loss of functionality as a "win against child porn".

And stupid people ate this Cuomo bullshit up (just like they do now with the
Apple bullshit on child porn, which was a similar loss of functionality PR
stunt.

Both Apple now & that sleazebag Cuomo then, teamed up with others who had a
vested interest in promoting their sleazebag moves as against child porn.

REFERENCE:
https://www.freezenet.ca/eff-blocking-usenets-alt-hierarchy-violate-first-amendment/
"It's been widely reported that American ISPs are being pressured
to drop their UseNet service by the New York"

https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2019/07/12/a_pair_of_usenet_pirates_get_66_months_behind_bars/
"The reason most dropped them in the US, was Andrew Cuomo, who started
by trying to force AT&T to drop it, because of claims of child porn"

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 9/12/2021 4:35 AM, Chris wrote:
>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 9/11/2021 2:52 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>> On 2021-09-11 17:02, nospam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> nope, plus it doesn't live long on a surface, so anything you might get
>>>>> is dead.
>>>>
>>>> It lives longer on a surface that is not porous than in air. (because it
>>>> remains surrounded by water for longer).
>>>
>>> nospam is wrong of course™.
>>
>> Not this time.
>
> That would be nice, but unfortunately he is still wrong, at least
> according to the CDC.
>
> It's true that most people get infected through breathing in droplets
> containing the virus, but, while the probability is low, it is still
> possible to get infected through contact with surfaces: "It is possible
> for people to be infected through contact with contaminated surfaces or
> objects (fomites), but the risk is generally considered to be low." See
> <https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html>.
>
> It's a good idea to be cautious,

That's why we've told been since we were kids to wash our hands on a
regular basis. Clean hands prevent transmission of all sports.

> and it's a lot less trouble than
> wearing a mask.

Masks are more effective.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 9/12/2021 12:05 PM, Rob wrote:
>
>> Here, banks (and lots of other businesses) don't care at all about
>> existing customers. Only new customers are important.
>
> Existing customers often become someone's new customers if the wanted
> services are lacking...

With the banking system as it is here, that is only a small risk.
It is so much effort to move everything to a new bank and new account
number, and the situation will be the same at that other bank.
So most customers stay at the same bank for life.

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
>>> Rob wrote
>>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
>
>>>>> A paper birthday card with a few comments hand written by me,
>>>>> mailed in a paper envelope with a birthday sticker, and a paper
>>>>> gift check enclosed, just seems a little more personal to me than
>>>>> a happy birthday text with a link.
>>>
>>>> It seems like mainly the elderly stick to that here, and send some
>>>> money or a gift card.
>>>
>>> I'm 3 months from my 80th birthday. Do I qualify?
>>
>> Probably yes...
>>
>>>> But the next generation talks to the grandchildren via WhatsApp and
>>>> sends them money using the bank app.
>>>
>>> What about the kids that don't have phones? Use the parents phones I
>>> suppose.
>>
>> Kids that don't have phones??? These rarely exist...
>> When they are really small I suppose they use the parents phones.
>>
>> But parents give their old phones to kids at a very young age, so
>> much even that the "call emergency services without SIM card" service
>> had to be disabled here because they were getting calls from kids
>> playing with a phone with no SIM ("only emergency calls") all day.
>
> Weird, wonder why no one else had to disable that.
>
>>>> The postal system is in decay. Each year the tariff for sending
>>>> mail is newly determined, it looks like by the formula of "how much
>>>> revenue do we want or need" / "how many letters do we still expect
>>>> to handle this year" causing an exponential rise in the stamp price
>>>> that ends when the last person wanting to mail a card or letter has
>>>> to pay te entire postal service revenue :-)
>>>
>>> Judging from my mailbox the PO makes most of its money from junk mail.
>>> And unfortunately unlike my phone I can't filter most of it out...
>>
>> We have a junk mail filter service here so I do not get much of that.
>> I get some letters from companies like bank or insurance companies
>> or the government, but by far not as many as before. Maybe 2 in a week.
>
>> The post offices have all been closed.
>
> Even weirder. That hasn’t happened anywhere else either.
>
>> Most roadside mail deposit boxes have been removed.
>
> Even weirder. That hasn’t happened anywhere else either.
>
>> They used to be every 3 blocks in a city but
>> now there may be one or two in a quarter.
>
>> Package delivery thrives, but the letter delivery is all but dead.
>
> Ours isn't. Not surprised yours is dead given no post offices etc.

Probably we are a bit ahead of the curve due to wide adoption of
new technology. But I think it will happen everwhere. The postal
system is a labor-intensive system for a purpose that is being replaced
by other technologies, and in an economic system that can only flourish
in the presence of growth, it gets in a rapid downward spiral.
Of course some of the measures will further accelerate its downfall.

When there aren't many customers coming in, it is not economically
viable to have a post office. When almost no letters are being dropped,
it is no longer viable to have deposit boxes all over the city and
a person driving along them once a day to empty them.

Now we have some desks at stores (supermarket, bookstore) for postal
services where you can buy stamps and handover letters or packages,
and you can order stamps online either physically or as a barcode
that you can print on a label and use to mail a letter or postcard.
Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them anymore, they
are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because the price is increasing
all the time (on the other hand that means you can save some money
by keeping a stock).

I think the postal system will go the same way as the steam locomotive
and the tow barge. Things that were established when there was a
demand, and phased out when the demand ceased.

On 11/09/2021 21.00, Rob wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> For transport, we have a completely separate system operated by the
>>> transport companies and with functionality oriented towards that.
>>> You present the card at both entry and exit from the system, and the
>>> system calculates the fare and subtracts it from the balance on the
>>> card. "It cannot be done" using the existing chipcard system, said
>>> the transport companies, because that only handles money and not
>>> the special functions for transport.
>>
>> Ah, because the fare changes with distance?
>
> Yes, and not only that. When you travel for a certain distance
> you pay a fixed fee plus an amount per km travelled, but the fees
> depend on your age (child, adult, pensioner) and also on your
> posession of special tariff cards that could give a discount at
> certain times of day, or let you travel for free on certain lines.

Ah, yes.

>
> They call these (abhorrily) "travel products".
> These are stored on the card in separate areas to allow the terminal
> to calculate the correct fare.
> There are also others, like "free rent of a bike at the destination".
>
> Of course when using a generic debit card this knowledge will have to be
> stored in a central system, unless the banks cooperate and allow
> some data storage in their card as well. And when it is centrally
> stored, it will have to be retrieved when you present your card.

Right. Or use together with a transport card that IDs you and stores
that data. As in a supermarket with... huh, the name slips my tongue
right now... loyalty cards. A bit of a hassle, though, and more
complicated when using a phone.

>> There is something that I do not know for sure: the articles I read
>> mention that you pay one trip fare with your card; and one trip fare was
>> more expensive previously than buying a 10 trips ticket or one month of
>> trips.
>>
>> So what will they do, lower the price of the single fare bought with
>> debit/credit cards or not?
>>
>> Also, there is the issue of taking two or three buses in a single trip.
>
> Yes, these issues have also arisen here.
> Before the system (with fare calculation by km) was introduced, we
> had a zonal system where the fare would be determined by the number
> of zones travelled through.

Madrid has a zone system, that agrgates bus, metro (underground city
train), and regular local trains under the same ticket. I'm unsure how
the system works now, I mostly use the car except going to the city
centre, and then I only take the metro, single zone - but I'm just at
the border of the next zone, so going on the other direction is more
expensive instantly.

> A zone number is displayed at every
> stop. This leads to funny situations where a short trip of 3 stops
> could be 2 zones, while a longer trip of maybe 10 stops could be
> 1 zone and thus much cheaper.

Indeed.

> I happen to live in an outskirt that
> has the same zone as the city center, while there are also outskirts
> that had a different zone.

Exactly my situation when I'm in Madrid.

> For me, the new system was much more
> expensive as the number of km to the city center is relatively large
> for me but it still was 1 zone, for others it was less expensive.
>
> And indeed the special tickets make it even more complicated.
> For infrequent users it is also unclear at which points in the trip
> you have to check out and back in again at the next bus. It depends
> on the company operating the bus.

Right.

And on each city you need a training course...

>
>>> All of these systems have encountered resistance due to the fact that
>>> the accounting company behind all this can (and does) keep an exact
>>> log of all travels made by everyone.
>>
>> Ah... well, the dedicated card system also can do similarly - well,
>> maybe not, the card in my city doesn't know my name or ID. But the
>> monthly pass in Madrid does know my name.
>
> It is similar here. I have a card which I bought at and recharge
> at a machine, in principle they do not know who I am. When I want
> to use those special products I need to get a named card.
> However, when I make a mistake (like forgetting to check out) and I
> want my money back, I need to register the card to my name first...
> People who regularly use the public transport of course always have
> a registered card to get some discount or monthly pass, or because
> they once made a mistake and want their 4 or 20 euro back.
> (which is taken for bus or train journeys you did not check out)
>

Yep.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 12/09/2021 10.02, sms wrote:
> On 9/10/2021 3:45 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> FaceID reduced usefulness of iPhone because of need to double click and
>> authenticate prior to waving phone at POS. The advent of masks makes
>> FACID a pain. So paying with card is more frequent during COVID than
>> before.
>
> With or without the hassle of FaceID and masks, contactless cards are
> probably responsible for the low use of mobile phone payments.
>
> I recall being in Palo Alto one weekend several years ago when Apple was
> doing a big promotion of Apple Pay. If you paid with Apple Pay you got
> all sorts of discounts at restaurants. One offered a free slice of
> pizza, one offered a discount on the entire bill. But that was before
> contactless credit cards were ubiquitous like they are now. The only
> non-contactless credit card that I'm aware of is the Apple Mastercard. I
> have two metal credit cards and one was contactless from when I got it
> and the other just recently began sending out contactless cards.
>
> The U.S. of lags many other countries in the adoption of contactless.
> Even though nearly every credit card supports contactless, I still see
> that most people slide their card into the chip reader, even though a
> lot of stores have signs that tell people to use contactless.
>
> Personally, I want to reduce the number of cards I carry in my wallet. U
> use mobile wallet with credit cards that I don't carry, but carry one
> card for use at businesses that don't take any NFC payment methods.

Mobile wallet. What app is that one?

My bank app will only take one of the cards I have in that bank, so I'm
missing something. And it forgets the card data at the worst possible
moment, perhaps after some update.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/09/2021 23.19, Chris wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/09/2021 14.22, Chris wrote:
>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 11/09/2021 11.24, Chris wrote:
>>>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/10/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/09/2021 00.18, AJL wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money
>>>>>>>> to an individual without needing to know anything but his name. No
>>>>>>>> app info required. For example I generally mail checks in birthday
>>>>>>>> cards to grandkids around the country because it's safer than
>>>>>>>> mailing cash and I know that they got them when the check clears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That would backfire here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank account
>>>>>>> to cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the kid
>>>>>>> can not withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of age. No
>>>>>>> exceptions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high
>>>>>>> fee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here the parents can countersign the check and use their phone to
>>>>>> deposit it into their account (no bank trip required). They can then
>>>>>> later go to the store with the kid to buy the gift, give him cash, or
>>>>>> combine the money with other cash gifts to buy something really special...
>>>>>
>>>>> That was banned here decades ago as it's easy to steal people's cheques
>>>>> that way. Only the account payee can cash/deposit a cheque.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gifting money is easy via direct deposit to their bank account.
>>>>
>>>> But not to kids, at least in my country. They can not withdraw from
>>>> their own accounts a single cent till they are 18.
>>>
>>> That does seem really very odd. How are kids supposed to manage their
>>> money? Many 15+ year olds have jobs and need to get paid here. How does
>>> that work in Spain?
>>
>> Simple: no jobs. Forbidden for minors.
>
> 16 yo aren't minors here. At 16 you can leave home, leave school, get
> married, vote in some elections and of course get a job and pay tax. You're
> limited in how many hours you can work, however.

They have to emancipate from their parents, either by agreement or with
a court order. Means he lives independently, in his/her own house.

That's a serious move. Happens in broken families.

>
>> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could be
>> jailed.
>
> Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual work?

Really. One exception: kid actors, and with a strict regulation, they
can not miss classes. Means that a theatrical spectacle with two
sessions a day need double (or more) kid cast.

It wasn't always this way. When I was a kid, the sons of a shop owner
would work there, albeit often for free. Learning the job. A pal of mine
worked as a waiter at the family hotel/restaurant, for free AFAIK. The
money went into the family pocket, being able to keep the hotel running.

However, the culture was that if a minor worked, it meant that the
family was poor. Often it would be considered a disgrace and dishonour
to the family, if it was not the family business and, for example, mowed
the grass on the neighbourhood or waited at a restaurant.

There was so much abuse that the situation was reversed completely in
the law.

But I know that farmer boys usually "farm". There is a famous youtuber
kid around here, and what he posts are precisely farm task and anecdotes.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/09/2021 23.33, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 09/11/2021 02:19 PM, Chris wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 11/09/2021 14.22, Chris wrote:
>
>>>> That does seem really very odd. How are kids supposed to manage their
>>>> money? Many 15+ year olds have jobs and need to get paid here. How does
>>>> that work in Spain?
>>>
>>> Simple: no jobs. Forbidden for minors.
>>
>> 16 yo aren't minors here. At 16 you can leave home, leave school, get
>> married, vote in some elections and of course get a job and pay tax.
>> You're
>> limited in how many hours you can work, however.
>>
>>> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could be
>>> jailed.
>>
>> Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual work?
>
> Not sure about the legality of kids mowing lawns for money (my 10-YO
> cousin made a bundle doing that 60 years ago!) but if you pay the kid in
> cash there's no functional way of preventing it.

Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing the
grass not at his home.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/09/2021 21.03, Rob wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> In those days it was still very customary to go to the bank (or post-)
>>> office once a month and collect a big part of the money in cash, only
>>> leaving some for payments that already could be made bank-to-bank
>>> (like energy bill, rent, mortgage payment, etc)
>>
>> Yes, that culture existed in Spain for many years. The payment day you
>> would see lineups at the banks to withdraw probably the entire salary.
>> Especially retired folk.
>>
>> Recently (5 years?) banks started placing hurdles to this practice, like
>> reducing the man power, the number of cashiers, or the hours dedicated.
>> Or removing the cash service altogether on some branches.
>
> We have no cashier services anymore. Even at bank offices (which
> hardly exist anymore) you need to get your cash from an ATM.

Same here. Indeed, that's another of the hurdles they imposed. To use
the cashier the amount has to be bigger than 500€. Which poses some
curious situations, as sometimes a bank manager or clerk has to
accompany an old lady to the ATM to do the withdrawal because she is
unable to.

> In a
> larger bank office there is a sideroom with one or two ATMs where
> you can possibly withdraw larger amounts in a bit more secure environment
> than out on the street.

Yep.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 12/09/2021 19.09, sms wrote:
> On 9/12/2021 9:32 AM, AJL wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I wouldn't be surprised if it goes that way here eventually. I've not
>> been inside one of those branches in over a year. I can do almost
>> everything I need on my phone. But I do have to use a website to choose
>> my customer reward gifts...
>
> I am surprised that in the U.S. the large banks keep building and
> operating more branches; not just leasing space in a shopping center,
> but actually building a new building. Chase and BOA did this recently in
> my area.
>
> Often, when one bank takes over another, you'd think that branches that
> are within close proximity would consolidate, but that's not usually the
> case, they'll continue to operate both branches.

There are many villages here that not only do not have any bank branch,
but even no ATM, forcing elderly villagers with no car to do maybe 20 Km
by bus (which are few) to another village that does have at least an ATM.

Use internet? Assuming they know how to handle that, often those
villages are isolated and have no internet coverage or very weak signal.

This is an unsolved problem.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 10.02, Rob wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>> On 9/12/2021 12:05 PM, Rob wrote:
>>
>>> Here, banks (and lots of other businesses) don't care at all about
>>> existing customers. Only new customers are important.
>>
>> Existing customers often become someone's new customers if the wanted
>> services are lacking...
>
> With the banking system as it is here, that is only a small risk.
> It is so much effort to move everything to a new bank and new account
> number, and the situation will be the same at that other bank.
> So most customers stay at the same bank for life.
>

The other day I heard an advert from a bank saying that they would
handle *all* the moving.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/09/2021 21.07, Rob wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>> On 9/11/2021 7:27 AM, Rob wrote:
>>
>>> We have progressed from paper forms to using websites and apps.
>>> There is no issue of "remembering account numbers" because the
>>> banking websites and apps all have an address book where they
>>> remember the names and account numbers you use.
>>
>> It's nice to have both paper and electronic systems available.
>>
>> A paper birthday card with a few comments hand written by me, mailed in
>> a paper envelope with a birthday sticker, and a paper gift check
>> enclosed, just seems a little more personal to me than a happy birthday
>> text with a link. YMMV of course...
>
> It seems like mainly the elderly stick to that here, and send some
> money or a gift card. But the next generation talks to the
> grandchildren via WhatsApp and sends them money using the bank app.

I heard of WhatsApp was preparing to send money within the app.

> The postal system is in decay. Each year the tariff for sending
> mail is newly determined, it looks like by the formula of
> "how much revenue do we want or need" / "how many letters do we
> still expect to handle this year" causing an exponential rise in
> the stamp price that ends when the last person wanting to mail
> a card or letter has to pay te entire postal service revenue :-)

In some countries they simply take other jobs. Like retrieving and
recycling used Nespresso coffee capsules :-D

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/09/2021 21.55, %% wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> %% wrote
>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>> On 11/09/2021 01.16, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>>>>>> Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>>>>>> Am 09.09.21 um 22:30 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>>>>>>>>> On 09/09/2021 19.56, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only
>>>>>>>>>>> 6% of
>>>>>>>>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect
>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world
>>>>>>>>>>> than iOS
>>>>>>>>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung
>>>>>>>>>>> Pay
>>>>>>>>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also
>>>>>>>>>>> part of
>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your
>>>>>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>>>>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in
>>>>>>>>>>> Silicon
>>>>>>>>>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been
>>>>>>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>>>>>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>>>>>>>>>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either
>>>>>>>>>> Apple or
>>>>>>>>>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is
>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here
>>>>>>>>>> everybody
>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is what I called an electronic cash transaction. In Europe
>>>>>>>>> they are
>>>>>>>>> the real growth area. In Switzerland they call it "Twint". Even
>>>>>>>>> P2P-Transactions are possible. Thats the way we clear money
>>>>>>>>> issues in
>>>>>>>>> the wider family.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.twint.ch/en/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's another one. No, I was talking of an specific bank app that
>>>>>>>> replaces the card, and the phone works as if it were the NFC card.
>>>>>>>> Quite
>>>>>>>> cumbersome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) Open the phone, identify.
>>>>>>>> 2) Open the banking app, identify.
>>>>>>>> 3) Line up to pay at the supermarket. Unload your goods into the
>>>>>>>> "belt".
>>>>>>>> 4) The bank app has timed out and closed. Open it up again - and it
>>>>>>>> takes a few seconds to respond after identification.
>>>>>>>> 5) People in the line get politely restless.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That’s where you are doing it wrong. You should be
>>>>>>> putting your stuff on the belt, wait till the checkout
>>>>>>> monkey has scanned most of the items, then setup
>>>>>>> your phone to make the payment. No one then has
>>>>>>> to wait for you to do anything.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And that's what you don't understand,
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll see...
>>>>>
>>>>>> the bank app takes a minute to be ready before I
>>>>>> can wave it at the machine reader. I tried two banks.
>>>>>
>>>>> And apple pay doesn’t, so you should be using that.
>>>>
>>>> Except that merchants do not accept Apple/Google Pay here.
>>>
>>> That’s wrong.
>>> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207957
>>>
>>>>>> So I prefer to prepare the app in advance,
>>>>>> while I'm in the line doing nothing but waiting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Makes more sense to do that after you load your
>>>>> stuff onto the belt and only fire up the app if you
>>>>> are stupid enough to use the app instead of applepay.
>> --------******
>>>
>>>> Back to insulting.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>> zap.
>>>
>>> Fat lot of good that will do you, stupid.
>>
>> ····································*******
>>
>>
>> That you changed name proves your intention to insult.
>
> Nope, that I have worked out how to do an end run around that stunt.

What, a kill file? Maybe you are the silly one here, you are on the
mental kill file.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> The postal system is in decay. Each year the tariff for sending
>> mail is newly determined, it looks like by the formula of
>> "how much revenue do we want or need" / "how many letters do we
>> still expect to handle this year" causing an exponential rise in
>> the stamp price that ends when the last person wanting to mail
>> a card or letter has to pay te entire postal service revenue :-)
>
> In some countries they simply take other jobs. Like retrieving and
> recycling used Nespresso coffee capsules :-D

It was considered here to do other jobs like identification (verifying
a person ID e.g. when someone wants to open a bank account), checking
on persons wellbeing, etc. But they forgot that the "trusted" postman
who used to be a respected person working under an oath had already
been replaced by people working under an hour contract to deliver letters
and with no feel of responsibility for the job. So it turned out to
be difficult to let them do other things.

On 13/09/2021 13.25, Rob wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> The postal system is in decay. Each year the tariff for sending
>>> mail is newly determined, it looks like by the formula of
>>> "how much revenue do we want or need" / "how many letters do we
>>> still expect to handle this year" causing an exponential rise in
>>> the stamp price that ends when the last person wanting to mail
>>> a card or letter has to pay te entire postal service revenue :-)
>>
>> In some countries they simply take other jobs. Like retrieving and
>> recycling used Nespresso coffee capsules :-D
>
> It was considered here to do other jobs like identification (verifying
> a person ID e.g. when someone wants to open a bank account), checking
> on persons wellbeing, etc. But they forgot that the "trusted" postman
> who used to be a respected person working under an oath had already
> been replaced by people working under an hour contract to deliver letters
> and with no feel of responsibility for the job. So it turned out to
> be difficult to let them do other things.
>

One of the things that they are testing here is, as bank branches and
ATMs are disappearing from villages, deliver cash to old people in
villages that request it.

The obvious job they do here is also deliver parcels.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

| >> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could be
| >> jailed.
| >
| > Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual work?
| | Really. One exception: kid actors, and with a strict regulation, they
| can not miss classes. Means that a theatrical spectacle with two
| sessions a day need double (or more) kid cast.
| That's a good one. You can't mow lawns, but you can be in
a movie where sex addicts get chopped to bits by a psychotic,
pedophile Nazi. :)

| It wasn't always this way. When I was a kid, the sons of a shop owner
| would work there, albeit often for free. Learning the job. A pal of mine
| worked as a waiter at the family hotel/restaurant, for free AFAIK. The
| money went into the family pocket, being able to keep the hotel running.
| | However, the culture was that if a minor worked, it meant that the
| family was poor. Often it would be considered a disgrace and dishonour
| to the family, if it was not the family business and, for example, mowed
| the grass on the neighbourhood or waited at a restaurant.
|

I wonder if that's more a class thing? In the US, rich kids
are likely to be making connections rather than working.
They might spend their time doing things like sailing with other
rich kids. There isn't an expectation that they'd ever be required
to do actual labor.

But for the average kid, a job is a way to be independent and
learn about the idea of making their own living. My first job was
at 13. I worked for old ladies, cleaning their houses and doing
minor repairs. Then I had a paper route. Then McDonalds hired
me. (Illegal, technically, because I wasn't quite 16. But work, in the
US, is next to godliness. Any authorities who caught me would have
thought I was a good kid with healthy ambition. The US has been
heavily affected by Christian sexual perversion from both the Puritan
and Catholic streams. If you're working you can't be masturbating
or indulging in sensual pleasures.)

It seems to be different these days. The average kid is so spoiled
that their phone, car and clothes are provided by their parents,
well into adulthood, so they don't need to work. I'm getting to
an age where I'd prefer to hire a teenager to shovel the driveway
after big snowstorms, but there are fewer teenagers than there
used to be and few of them work.

That's become a topic lately, in the US, around COVID. Businesses
are having a hard time getting help for low paying jobs. They blame
the unemployment payments that people were getting during COVID.
But the fact is that the jobs don't pay enough to survive. In an earlier
time people took those jobs because it was that or starve. Or teenagers
took them to make spending money. Now, the
teenagers who might take the jobs don't want/need to work. The
struggling poor might take them if they get desperate enough, but
you can't pay for a $1,500/month studio apt plus food and bills on
$400/week pay.

In article <sql31ixjcm.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>
> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?

no app needed, other than to initially add cards.

> My bank app will only take one of the cards I have in that bank, so I'm
> missing something. And it forgets the card data at the worst possible
> moment, perhaps after some update.

what you're missing is that apple pay and google pay are not specific
to one particular bank.

also, since it uses industry standard emv, it also works just about
anywhere contactless cards do. the exception is that some merchants
deliberately disable apple/google pay to force their own mobile payment
system, but that's very rare.