> If you run your data center in the 80s instead of the 60s, you get a
> considerably shorter lifespan on your hardware. Great decrease in MTTF
> mostly due to capacitor failures but also CPU failures to a lesser extent.

Not everyone agrees. For example, Google and Backblaze both say
temperature isn't as big a factor in disk drive life as you'd expect.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-temperature-does-it-matter/

The Google link in that document talks specifically about hard drives.
Elsewhere, Google also report that they run their datacenters at 80
degrees:

https://www.google.com/about/datacenters/efficiency/

De

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>Your operating system vendor has complete access to your data and your
>secrets. Do you trust them ?

In the case of Microsoft...
Not very much, and that is the most terrifying thing of all.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
> > If you run your data center in the 80s instead of the 60s, you get a
> > considerably shorter lifespan on your hardware. Great decrease in MTTF
> > mostly due to capacitor failures but also CPU failures to a lesser extent.
>
>Not everyone agrees. For example, Google and Backblaze both say
>temperature isn't as big a factor in disk drive life as you'd expect.
>
>https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-temperature-does-it-matter/
>
>The Google link in that document talks specifically about hard drives.

Yes, it doesn't have as big an effect on hard drives. As I said, it's mostly
increased numbers of electrolytic capacitor failures and to a lesser extent
CPU failures.

>Elsewhere, Google also report that they run their datacenters at 80
>degrees:
>
>https://www.google.com/about/datacenters/efficiency/

Yes. It's more cost-effective for them and they are changing the hardware
out on a fairly short cycle anyway.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Den 2021-12-22 kl. 01:24, skrev Scott Dorsey:
> Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
>>> If you run your data center in the 80s instead of the 60s, you get a
>>> considerably shorter lifespan on your hardware. Great decrease in MTTF
>>> mostly due to capacitor failures but also CPU failures to a lesser extent.
>>
>> Not everyone agrees. For example, Google and Backblaze both say
>> temperature isn't as big a factor in disk drive life as you'd expect.
>>
>> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-temperature-does-it-matter/
>>
>> The Google link in that document talks specifically about hard drives.
>
> Yes, it doesn't have as big an effect on hard drives. As I said, it's mostly
> increased numbers of electrolytic capacitor failures and to a lesser extent
> CPU failures.
>
>> Elsewhere, Google also report that they run their datacenters at 80
>> degrees:
>>
>> https://www.google.com/about/datacenters/efficiency/
>
> Yes. It's more cost-effective for them and they are changing the hardware
> out on a fairly short cycle anyway.
> --scott
>

Aha! F! Why not use a standard temp scale.
I thought it sounded a bit high...

On 12/21/2021 7:59 PM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2021-12-22 kl. 01:24, skrev Scott Dorsey:
>> Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
>>>> If you run your data center in the 80s instead of the 60s, you get a
>>>> considerably shorter lifespan on your hardware.  Great decrease in MTTF
>>>> mostly due to capacitor failures but also CPU failures to a lesser
>>>> extent.
>>>
>>> Not everyone agrees.  For example, Google and Backblaze both say
>>> temperature isn't as big a factor in disk drive life as you'd expect.
>>>
>>> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-temperature-does-it-matter/
>>>
>>> The Google link in that document talks specifically about hard drives.
>>
>> Yes, it doesn't have as big an effect on hard drives.  As I said, it's
>> mostly
>> increased numbers of electrolytic capacitor failures and to a lesser
>> extent
>> CPU failures.
>>
>>> Elsewhere, Google also report that they run their datacenters at 80
>>> degrees:
>>>
>>> https://www.google.com/about/datacenters/efficiency/
>>
>> Yes.  It's more cost-effective for them and they are changing the
>> hardware
>> out on a fairly short cycle anyway.
>
> Aha! F! Why not use a standard temp scale.
> I thought it sounded a bit high...

The standard is K.

:-)

Arne

On 12/21/2021 12:31 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/21/21 11:45 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 12/21/2021 8:38 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> No, I seriously believe all this cloud crap is a really bad idea.

>> Uhh ... Bill ...
>>
>> WE AIN'T TALKING ABOUT "CLOUD" !!!!!!!!!!
>
> Sorry Dave.  When it leaves your control and goes to someone else's
> it all looks like cloud to me.

Not everything external is cloud. Being cloud requires some scalability
and location fuzziness to qualify.

A sufficiently large hosting facility could have been called
LaaS (Location as a Service) cloud, but by convention it is not.

env HW+hypervisor OS+platform SW
traditional customer customer customer customer
hosting facility provider customer customer customer
IaaS cloud provider provider customer customer
PaaS/FaaS cloud provider provider provider customer
SaaS cloud provider provider provider provider

Arne

On 12/21/2021 7:59 PM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2021-12-22 kl. 01:24, skrev Scott Dorsey:
>> Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
>>>> If you run your data center in the 80s instead of the 60s, you get a
>>>> considerably shorter lifespan on your hardware. Great decrease in MTTF
>>>> mostly due to capacitor failures but also CPU failures to a lesser extent.
>>>
>>> Not everyone agrees. For example, Google and Backblaze both say
>>> temperature isn't as big a factor in disk drive life as you'd expect.
>>>
>>> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-temperature-does-it-matter/
>>>
>>> The Google link in that document talks specifically about hard drives.
>>
>> Yes, it doesn't have as big an effect on hard drives. As I said, it's mostly
>> increased numbers of electrolytic capacitor failures and to a lesser extent
>> CPU failures.
>>
>>> Elsewhere, Google also report that they run their datacenters at 80
>>> degrees:
>>>
>>> https://www.google.com/about/datacenters/efficiency/
>>
>> Yes. It's more cost-effective for them and they are changing the hardware
>> out on a fairly short cycle anyway.
>> --scott
>>
>
> Aha! F! Why not use a standard temp scale.
> I thought it sounded a bit high...

For some of us, "F" is standard.

As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...

:-)

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Den 2021-12-22 kl. 06:55, skrev Dave Froble:
> On 12/21/2021 7:59 PM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> Den 2021-12-22 kl. 01:24, skrev Scott Dorsey:
>>> Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
>>>>> If you run your data center in the 80s instead of the 60s, you get a
>>>>> considerably shorter lifespan on your hardware.  Great decrease in MTTF
>>>>> mostly due to capacitor failures but also CPU failures to a lesser
>>>>> extent.
>>>>
>>>> Not everyone agrees.  For example, Google and Backblaze both say
>>>> temperature isn't as big a factor in disk drive life as you'd expect.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-temperature-does-it-matter/
>>>>
>>>> The Google link in that document talks specifically about hard drives.
>>>
>>> Yes, it doesn't have as big an effect on hard drives.  As I said, it's
>>> mostly
>>> increased numbers of electrolytic capacitor failures and to a lesser extent
>>> CPU failures.
>>>
>>>> Elsewhere, Google also report that they run their datacenters at 80
>>>> degrees:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.google.com/about/datacenters/efficiency/
>>>
>>> Yes.  It's more cost-effective for them and they are changing the hardware
>>> out on a fairly short cycle anyway.
>>> --scott
>>>
>>
>> Aha! F! Why not use a standard temp scale.
>> I thought it sounded a bit high...
>
> For some of us, "F" is standard.
>
> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
>
> :-)
>

Right, I have heard about that. While the rest of the world has moved on.

In article <spv07b$alf$1@dont-email.me>, =?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=c3=b6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>Den 2021-12-22 kl. 06:55, skrev Dave Froble:
>> On 12/21/2021 7:59 PM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>> Den 2021-12-22 kl. 01:24, skrev Scott Dorsey:
>>>> Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> If you run your data center in the 80s instead of the 60s, you get a
>>>>>> considerably shorter lifespan on your hardware.  Great decrease in MTTF
>>>>>> mostly due to capacitor failures but also CPU failures to a lesser
>>>>>> extent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not everyone agrees.  For example, Google and Backblaze both say
>>>>> temperature isn't as big a factor in disk drive life as you'd expect.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-temperature-does-it-matter/
>>>>>
>>>>> The Google link in that document talks specifically about hard drives.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it doesn't have as big an effect on hard drives.  As I said, it's
>>>> mostly
>>>> increased numbers of electrolytic capacitor failures and to a lesser extent
>>>> CPU failures.
>>>>
>>>>> Elsewhere, Google also report that they run their datacenters at 80
>>>>> degrees:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.google.com/about/datacenters/efficiency/
>>>>
>>>> Yes.  It's more cost-effective for them and they are changing the hardware
>>>> out on a fairly short cycle anyway.
>>>> --scott
>>>>
>>>
>>> Aha! F! Why not use a standard temp scale.
>>> I thought it sounded a bit high...
>>
>> For some of us, "F" is standard.
>>
>> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
>>
>> :-)
>>
>
>Right, I have heard about that. While the rest of the world has moved on.

Dynes or newtons?

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

In article <00B6DA8D.1850B8B7@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

> >> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
> >>
> >> :-)
> >
> >Right, I have heard about that. While the rest of the world has moved on.
>
> Dynes or newtons?

Both are metric, but newton is the SI, and hence preferred, unit. Same
with tesla over gauss.

On 2021-12-21, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
> Den 2021-12-21 kl. 19:54, skrev Simon Clubley:
>> On 2021-12-21, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> With someone else having complete access to your system and all its
>>> data?
>>>
>>
>> Your operating system vendor has complete access to your data and your
>> secrets.
>
> What do you mean?
>
> Would VSI have complete access to our data, if it was stored on an
> OpenVMS instance running at Azure or AWS? How would that work?
>

Nothing to do with cloud instances and nothing to do with just VSI.
(IE: Simon _isn't_ on a VSI related rant. :-))

By definition of what it does, the operating system has direct access
to your data. If that operating system had a backdoor added to it, the
people who ordered the backdoor to be added would have direct access
to your data.

This is nothing new. There were active suspicions about this kind of
thing 20 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY

The backdoor could be added by the vendor on the order of a government
or it could be added by employees really working for someone else without
the vendor's knowledge.

>> Do you trust them ?
>
> In this case, VSI? To not tamper with our data? Yes I do.
>

This is not directed to VSI, but to operating system vendors in general.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-12-21, Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>
> Aha! F! Why not use a standard temp scale.
> I thought it sounded a bit high...

I guess my comment about boiling water was a bit too subtle. :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-12-22, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> For some of us, "F" is standard.
>
> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
>
>:-)
>

The US lost a probe due to that mindset. :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 12/21/2021 11:21 AM, chris wrote:
> On 12/21/21 00:46, Grant Taylor wrote:
>> Compare and contrast fully patched system in a co-location facility /
>> Virtual Private Server in the cloud which is utilizing disk encryption,
>> can't decrypt anything (on boot) without (remote) operator interaction,
>> verses a server in an office that hasn't ever been patched and is
>> internet accessible.
>
> Cherry picking the most extreme cases as an example is hardly a valid
> argument.
>
> What was that date center that burned down recently ?, took weeks to
> get all the customers back up and running and understand that some are
> still waiting. Ok, rare event, but trust an external supplier like
> that and you really need to understand the risks. That's why companies
> with long experience of IT, like Barclays, choose to keep all data local
> onsite...

Barclays chose on-prem.

But that is not a universal picture across banks.

A quick google of some big banks revealed:

Barclays - private cloud
Deutsche Bank - Google cloud
HSBC - Amazon cloud
JP Morgan - multi cloud
Bank of America - IBM cloud
Citibank - private cloud
Goldman Sachs - Amazon cloud
BNP Paribas - private cloud
UBS - Microsoft cloud

They are all over.

Arne

On 12/22/2021 10:41 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-12-22, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> For some of us, "F" is standard.
>>
>> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
>>
>> :-)
>>
>
> The US lost a probe due to that mindset. :-)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter
>
> Simon.
>

I'd suggest the problem was stupidity ...

The discrepancy between calculated and measured position, resulting in the
discrepancy between desired and actual orbit insertion altitude, had been
noticed earlier by at least two navigators, whose concerns were dismissed
because they "did not follow the rules about filling out [the] form to document
their concerns".

"The sky is falling ..."

Fill out the proper form ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 12/22/21 17:00, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/21/2021 11:21 AM, chris wrote:
>> On 12/21/21 00:46, Grant Taylor wrote:
>>> Compare and contrast fully patched system in a co-location facility /
>>> Virtual Private Server in the cloud which is utilizing disk encryption,
>>> can't decrypt anything (on boot) without (remote) operator interaction,
>>> verses a server in an office that hasn't ever been patched and is
>>> internet accessible.
>>
>> Cherry picking the most extreme cases as an example is hardly a valid
>> argument.
>>
>> What was that date center that burned down recently ?, took weeks to
>> get all the customers back up and running and understand that some are
>> still waiting. Ok, rare event, but trust an external supplier like
>> that and you really need to understand the risks. That's why companies
>> with long experience of IT, like Barclays, choose to keep all data
>> local onsite...
>
> Barclays chose on-prem.
>
> But that is not a universal picture across banks.
>
> A quick google of some big banks revealed:
>
> Barclays - private cloud
> Deutsche Bank - Google cloud
> HSBC - Amazon cloud
> JP Morgan - multi cloud
> Bank of America - IBM cloud
> Citibank - private cloud
> Goldman Sachs - Amazon cloud
> BNP Paribas - private cloud
> UBS - Microsoft cloud
>
> They are all over.
>
> Arne
>
>

Good, but that doesn't split it down enough and you can bet that
the really critical and sensitive is kept onsight, or at least a
mirror copy of. To do otherwise seems foolish, even irresponsible,
to me.

One also has to remember that all external cloud requires internet
access, unless they are using leased line or some other sort of
private network, not connected in any way to the internet. Once
internet connected, a whole world of security issues need
to be addressed...

Chris

On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 7:59:48 PM UTC-5, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2021-12-22 kl. 01:24, skrev Scott Dorsey:
> > Dennis Boone <d...@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
[...]
> >> Elsewhere, Google also report that they run their datacenters at 80
> >> degrees:
[...]
> > --scott
> >
> Aha! F! Why not use a standard temp scale.
> I thought it sounded a bit high...

I would have chimed in sooner, but my Mac hard drive failed a few days ago and I was rather occupied with recovery.

Anyway, regarding Fahrenheit: Americans aren't switching to the "standard," Celsius, for the same reason you're not using a Dvorak keyboard. Actually, if you want to go all the way you should be using Kelvin, the only "true" temperature scale in use.

On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 7:55:40 AM UTC-5, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <00B6DA8D...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
> > >> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
> > >>
> > >> :-)
> > >
> > >Right, I have heard about that. While the rest of the world has moved on.
> >
> > Dynes or newtons?

Excellent point.

> Both are metric, but newton is the SI, and hence preferred, unit. Same
> with tesla over gauss.

Depends on the purpose. Use the right too for the job. And to my European freinds: How many Newtons do you weigh?

Dynes and Newtons are pretty much limited to the realm of physicists and perhaps some engineers.

Both Telsas and Gausses are in use. Different purpose? Different units.

Would you use Coulombs when dealing with the charges of subatomic particles? No! Physicists use the positron as the unit of charge. And energy? Nuclear and particle physicists use electron volts, usually as keV, MeV, GeV, and now TeV, not ergs or BTU's or joules. Electron volts are not SI units! You've also got the very useful atomic mass unit. Cross sections are measured in barns. 1 barn = 10^{-28} m^2. Not an SI unit, but based on the meter. Actually, millibarns is used a lot, and microbarns in neutrino physics, IIRC.

Astronomers use all sorts of non-SI units: astronomical unit, light-year, parsec, stellar magnitude (which is not only not even linear, it's logarithmic. But also higher numbers mean dimmer stars!), solar masses, Schwarzschild radius, and probably more I can't think of at the moment.

Theoretical physicists often set natural constants like c (speed of light), \hbar (the reduced Planck constant), and e (charge of a positron) to 1.

America uses both English/Imperial/US customary units or WTFTC _and_ metric units. We can handle it (well, except for the Mars Observer probe!)! OK, many Americans can't. But we have metric in lots of things: beverages, liquor, drugs (both legal and illegal), engine displacement, film width, gun calibers (both systems), focal length, lens or mirror size (both systems, at least in astronomy), and probably more. But you get the idea. We have not eschewed the metric system. We just haven't adopted it for everything. Oh, there's tools! They come in both metric and non-metric units (I'm talking wrenches and the like). Apple brags that the thickness of their new 24" M1 macs is only 11.5 mm, IIRC.

Back to Fahrenheit: It has its advantages. When the temperature is in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s -- each range conjures up a different feeling. The Celsius degree is too big for that. "But is based on 0 and 100 for water!" So F what [pun not intended!]. How often do you even think of those when you are involved with the temperature. You've got two numbers: 32 and 212. Is this too hard to memorize? And when you hear those numbers you know it's temperature-related. 0 and 100 could be 'most anything.

Again, the reason Americans don't adopt Celsius is the same reason you haven't switched from the QWERTY to the Dvorak keyboard.

On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 1:42:27 PM UTC-5, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 12/22/2021 10:41 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> > On 2021-12-22, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> For some of us, "F" is standard.
> >>
> >> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
> >>
> >> :-)
> >>
> >
> > The US lost a probe due to that mindset. :-)
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter
> >
> > Simon.
> >
> I'd suggest the problem was stupidity ...

It was the fact that they were using different systems of units, not that one was using non-metric units. Which goes more toward the "stupidity" explanation.

>
> The discrepancy between calculated and measured position, resulting in the
> discrepancy between desired and actual orbit insertion altitude, had been
> noticed earlier by at least two navigators, whose concerns were dismissed
> because they "did not follow the rules about filling out [the] form to document
> their concerns".
>
>
> "The sky is falling ..."
>
> Fill out the proper form ...
> --
> David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> 170 Grimplin Road
> Vanderbilt, PA 15486

AEF

On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 9:23:26 PM UTC-5, xyzz...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:48:51 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> > On 12/19/2021 5:32 PM, VAX...@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > > In article <a6553b0e-2769-49cd...@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail..com" <alanfe...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:43:26 AM UTC-5, Volker Halle wrote:
> > >>> EISNER is co-located in a data center of VSI since a couple of years.
> > >>>
> > >>> Volker.
> > >>
> > >> Do you know what city? Whose data center? Just curious.
> > >
> > > Well, VSI is in Burlington.
> > Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there is a
> > pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
> >
> > Arne
> Our hardware is in a data-center facility in Chelmsford MA.

So I assume you are from VSI.

Again, who _funds_ EISNER? I don't think anyone has answered that. Is it 100% VSI-funded? The login bit no longer asks for donations.

> [...] How many Newtons do you weigh?

Normally, _mass_ is what is measured, not weight (force of gravity,
which depends too much on the environment).

> Dynes and Newtons are pretty much limited to the realm of physicists
> and perhaps some engineers.

Or any car mechanic with a torque wrench and a metric service manual.
(Although one written in the US might have goofy values, blindly
converted from foot-pounds.)

And "Newton" is the man; "newton" is the unit of force.

My high-school physics teacher drew a healthy-looking stick-figure
horse(?) on the blackboard, and labeled it "cm". Next to it, he drew a
similarly shaped animal, but on its back, with limp legs, and X's for
eyes, and labeled it "erg".

> Physicists use the positron as the unit of charge. [...]

No, they use the magnitude of the charge on an electron, just as they
did before the positron was discovered.

> Nuclear and particle physicists use electron volts, usually as keV,
> MeV, GeV, and now TeV, [...]

Note: "eV", not "pV". There is no "e" in "positron".

> [...] the reason Americans don't adopt Celsius is the same reason you
> haven't switched from the QWERTY to the Dvorak keyboard.

Not really. There's an Engineer Guy movie about the Dvorak keyboard,
by the way:

http://www.engineerguy.com/failure/dvorak.htm

Note that SI _did_ take over the world. (Almost completely.)

On 12/23/2021 10:42 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 1:42:27 PM UTC-5, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 12/22/2021 10:41 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-22, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For some of us, "F" is standard.
>>>>
>>>> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> The US lost a probe due to that mindset. :-)
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter
>>>
>>> Simon.
>>>
>> I'd suggest the problem was stupidity ...
>
> It was the fact that they were using different systems of units, not that one was using non-metric units. Which goes more toward the "stupidity" explanation.

I totally disagree. It''s quite simple to convert between systems.

When someone tells you to get off the road, the bus is coming, do you refuse
because they didn't fill out the proper forms? That's stupidity.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 12:03:05 AM UTC-5, Steven Schweda wrote:
> > [...] How many Newtons do you weigh?
>
> Normally, _mass_ is what is measured, not weight (force of gravity,
> which depends too much on the environment).

Nitpicking. Nit-, nit-, nitpicking. Fine. If you want to go there, then be prepared to adjust your scale to take the small differences in g around the world due to the earth's rotaiton and slightly non-spherical shape. Or just stay home.

> > Dynes and Newtons are pretty much limited to the realm of physicists
> > and perhaps some engineers.
> Or any car mechanic with a torque wrench and a metric service manual.
> (Although one written in the US might have goofy values, blindly
> converted from foot-pounds.)
>
> And "Newton" is the man; "newton" is the unit of force.

Sure, whatever.

>
> My high-school physics teacher drew a healthy-looking stick-figure
> horse(?) on the blackboard, and labeled it "cm". Next to it, he drew a
> similarly shaped animal, but on its back, with limp legs, and X's for
> eyes, and labeled it "erg".
>
> > Physicists use the positron as the unit of charge. [...]
>
> No, they use the magnitude of the charge on an electron, just as they
> did before the positron was discovered.

You're really nitpicking here. It's the same thing. I know you might find that hard to believe, but it really is the same thing.
We now know there's a positron, so I'm using that term instead. Takes fewer words until I had to respond to your post. I see nothing wrong with that. I guess it's news to you that it has the same, but opposite charge of the electron. Amazing, no? Next you'll be telling me that the meter is really 1/10,000,000th of the distance from the N pole to the equator through Paris or whatever it was.

Please, give me the numerical difference between the charge of a positron and the absolute value of the charge of an electron.

I'm waiting.

A difference without a distinction, as there is no difference.

> > Nuclear and particle physicists use electron volts, usually as keV,
> > MeV, GeV, and now TeV, [...]
>
> Note: "eV", not "pV". There is no "e" in "positron".

Well duh. And that's for a unit of energy, not charge. Again, please tell me the numerical difference between the charge of a positron and the absolute value of the charge of an electron. Hint: It's pretty damn close to zero.

BTW, physicists often use T for kinetic energy and U for potential energy. So what? There's no U in potential! B is used for the magnetic induction. No B in that! H is used for magnetic field. No H in that! Planck's constant is a lowercase h. No h in Planck or constant! p is used for momentum. No p in that!
> > [...] the reason Americans don't adopt Celsius is the same reason you
> > haven't switched from the QWERTY to the Dvorak keyboard.
> Not really. There's an Engineer Guy movie about the Dvorak keyboard,
> by the way:
>
> http://www.engineerguy.com/failure/dvorak.htm
>
> Note that SI _did_ take over the world. (Almost completely.)

So has climate change. So what?

And it looks like authoritarianism is taking over the world. I suppose that makes it a good thing, too.

America put men on the moon, despite only partial embrace of the SI system. Five decades later Jeff Besos launched people up 100 km or 62 miles or whatever it was. Just an odd side comment.

One other thing: SI hasn't taken over physics or astronomy. Physicists sometimes even use feet! Light travels about 1 foot in a nanosecond. This is useful for estimating delays in cables. That's probably the only unit from the English/Imperial/Customary/WTFIC system. The rest is a mix of SI and some non-SI units.

Use the right too for the job.

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 12:36:28 AM UTC-5, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 12/23/2021 10:42 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 1:42:27 PM UTC-5, Dave Froble wrote:
> >> On 12/22/2021 10:41 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> >>> On 2021-12-22, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> For some of us, "F" is standard.
> >>>>
> >>>> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
> >>>>
> >>>> :-)
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> The US lost a probe due to that mindset. :-)
> >>>
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter
> >>>
> >>> Simon.
> >>>
> >> I'd suggest the problem was stupidity ...
> >
> > It was the fact that they were using different systems of units, not that one was using non-metric units. Which goes more toward the "stupidity" explanation.
> I totally disagree. It''s quite simple to convert between systems.
>
> When someone tells you to get off the road, the bus is coming, do you refuse
> because they didn't fill out the proper forms? That's stupidity.

Touche'. Actually it's kind of both. But mostly stupidity. You'd figure there would be teams and that _someone_ would notice something wasn't right.

> --
> David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: da...@tsoft-inc.com
> DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> 170 Grimplin Road
> Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 12:03:05 AM UTC-5, Steven Schweda wrote:
[...]
]>
> > [...] the reason Americans don't adopt Celsius is the same reason you
> > haven't switched from the QWERTY to the Dvorak keyboard.
> Not really. There's an Engineer Guy movie about the Dvorak keyboard,
> by the way:
>
> http://www.engineerguy.com/failure/dvorak.htm

I just read the article.

"He showed that many of the most frequent letters are clustered at the center of the keyboard and so are confined to a reasonably small visual field."

Yes, a real advantage there, esp. for touch typists! I don't even believe it. Really? These are the most frequently used letters? TYUGHJBNM

QWERTY is terrible. Many words have all or a long sequence of letters entirely on the left hand, like SEARCH and SCRATCH. This is the hand that has to move the wrong way ergonomically. There are many such words and such things cause repetitive strain injuries like tendonitis and carpal tunnel. Supposedly the Dvorak keyboard is much better in that respect. It's much easier on the hands if you get to alternate hands between most letters in actual words.

QWERTY is bad on at least the left hand. Mice, on the right. And bingo! Disabled user.

But the Dvorak keyboard takes months to learn. And it would take months for Americans to get used to Celsius. No one wants to do either. And is Celsius even an SI unit? Kelvin is the base SI unit.

> Note that SI _did_ take over the world. (Almost completely.)

And America put men on another world, without being a purely SI nation. Hey, there's a good name for a show: SI nation!

Hey. QWERTY ain't an SI thing. So how good could it be?

AEF