> Nitpicking. Nit-, nit-, nitpicking. Fine. [...]

It's really not. Mass and weight are different concepts.

> [...] be prepared to adjust your scale [...]

Why? _I_'m measuring _mass_ using a balance, so I don't need to
adjust anything. Only someone who actually measures _weight_ needs to
worry.

The once-ubiquitous phrase, "No Springs -- Honest Weight", should, of
course, have read, "No Springs -- Honest Mass", because that's what was
actually measured. Of course, with pound (mass) and poundal (force), or
pound (force) and slug (mass), it's clear why SI might cause less
confusion among the easily confused.

> You're really nitpicking here. [...]

Real nit-picking would have been complaining that "the positron as
the unit of charge" was wrong because "the positron" is a particle, not
a "unit of charge". Note: "the magnitude of the charge on an electron",
not "the electron".

Precise language might look like nit-picking to a sloppy mind, but
it's really not.

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 1:19:15 AM UTC-5, Steven Schweda wrote:
> > Nitpicking. Nit-, nit-, nitpicking. Fine. [...]
>
> It's really not. Mass and weight are different concepts.
>
> > [...] be prepared to adjust your scale [...]
>
> Why? _I_'m measuring _mass_ using a balance, so I don't need to
> adjust anything. Only someone who actually measures _weight_ needs to
> worry.

Hmmm. I didn't know you were using a balance scale. Most people don't. I actually have a beam balance, like the ones you see in doctors offices. But most don't. I suppose to p[ay a compliment to someone who lost weight you'd say, "Hey, I see you lost some mass there! Lookin' good!" Really? Is that how you'd put it, and you'd give people s*** if they said weight instead of mass?

It's still nitpicking.

>
> The once-ubiquitous phrase, "No Springs -- Honest Weight", should, of
> course, have read, "No Springs -- Honest Mass", because that's what was
> actually measured. Of course, with pound (mass) and poundal (force), or
> pound (force) and slug (mass), it's clear why SI might cause less
> confusion among the easily confused.
>
> > You're really nitpicking here. [...]

Have you ever checked out onlineconversion.com? Talk about lots of units!

>
> Real nit-picking would have been complaining that "the positron as
> the unit of charge" was wrong because "the positron" is a particle, not
> a "unit of charge". Note: "the magnitude of the charge on an electron",
> not "the electron".
>
> Precise language might look like nit-picking to a sloppy mind, but
> it's really not.

No, nitpicking looks like irrelevant time-wasting criticism to people who aren't interested in wasting time on things that don't matter. We're humans, not computers. Most of us don't need every blasted last detail expounded to us. That's why computers are so bad at common sense. Of course I'm writing this post anyway. (^_^)

Ever been on quora.com? We've got some classic nitpickers there. It's often obvious what questioner means by a poorly worded question. Some will go on and on about how color is really a perception of the mind blah blah blah, when it's damn obvious what the question was. "Why is the grass green?" gets answered with a multi-paragraph explanation about how color is really just a perception of the mind. Shutup and answer the damn question, for Chrissakes. Sheesh.

Or the time isn't real bit, or the am/pm/noon/midnight bit. You'd have a ball!

I could go on, but time's-a-wasting! (And I'm sure interest would be waning!)

AEF

On Do 23 Dez 2021 at 19:40, "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> wrote:

> Depends on the purpose. Use the right too for the job. And to my
> European freinds: How many Newtons do you weigh?

roughly: 1kN

'Andreas

On 12/24/2021 12:44 AM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 12:36:28 AM UTC-5, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 12/23/2021 10:42 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 1:42:27 PM UTC-5, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2021 10:41 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-12-22, Dave Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For some of us, "F" is standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The US lost a probe due to that mindset. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter
>>>>>
>>>>> Simon.
>>>>>
>>>> I'd suggest the problem was stupidity ...
>>>
>>> It was the fact that they were using different systems of units, not that one was using non-metric units. Which goes more toward the "stupidity" explanation.
>> I totally disagree. It''s quite simple to convert between systems.
>>
>> When someone tells you to get off the road, the bus is coming, do you refuse
>> because they didn't fill out the proper forms? That's stupidity.
>
> Touche'. Actually it's kind of both. But mostly stupidity. You'd figure there would be teams and that _someone_ would notice something wasn't right.

According to the Wiki piece, several someones did notice, but were ignored.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Arne Vajhøj via
>Info-vax
>Sent: December-22-21 1:00 PM
>To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>Cc: Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
>Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Where is EISNER:: and who funds it?
>
>On 12/21/2021 11:21 AM, chris wrote:
>> On 12/21/21 00:46, Grant Taylor wrote:
>>> Compare and contrast fully patched system in a co-location facility /
>>> Virtual Private Server in the cloud which is utilizing disk
>>> encryption, can't decrypt anything (on boot) without (remote)
>>> operator interaction, verses a server in an office that hasn't ever
>>> been patched and is internet accessible.
>>
>> Cherry picking the most extreme cases as an example is hardly a valid
>> argument.
>>
>> What was that date center that burned down recently ?, took weeks to
>> get all the customers back up and running and understand that some are
>> still waiting. Ok, rare event, but trust an external supplier like
>> that and you really need to understand the risks. That's why companies
>> with long experience of IT, like Barclays, choose to keep all data
>> local onsite...
>
>Barclays chose on-prem.
>
>But that is not a universal picture across banks.
>
>A quick google of some big banks revealed:
>
>Barclays - private cloud
>Deutsche Bank - Google cloud
>HSBC - Amazon cloud
>JP Morgan - multi cloud
>Bank of America - IBM cloud
>Citibank - private cloud
>Goldman Sachs - Amazon cloud
>BNP Paribas - private cloud
>UBS - Microsoft cloud
>
>They are all over.
>
>Arne
>

Other than marketing, outsourcing is not much different to a Public Cloud
i.e., giving all and/or part of your IT stack to an external vendor in
return for paying a fixed and/or variable charge based on resources
dedicated and/or used on a monthly basis. Both provide compute and/or
storage capacity on demand (COD has been around since 70's or 80')
solutions. Course, one could argue there are no outsourcers who are as large
as AWS or Azure, but the principles are the same.

A Private Cloud is a business decision to implement an IT environment that
has many of the benefits of a Public Cloud (capacity on demand, automated
provisioning of VM servers, standardized API's), but also provides
additional benefits of:

- choice of platforms - Solaris, AIX, Mainframe z/OS etc., OpenVMS, HP-UX
etc. still provide a huge amount of the worlds business transaction
processing. Companies can integrate these platforms on prem with low
latency, customized solutions that integrate with the companies integrated
service desk (see below).
- choice of DC location e.g. if multi-site availability is required with 0
RPO (no loss of data - think banks and other financial businesses), then you
need synchronous replication that by industry best practices, dictates sites
be within 100km of each other). Case in point - Azure in Canada. Moving to
Azure in Canada means your workloads will be hosted in the one MS Toronto DC
(most workloads) or in their Quebec City DC (800km apart).- control,
implementation and monitoring of security policies,
- control of top to bottom IT stack - minimize finger pointing between
multiple vendors)
- integrated service management model (monitoring alerts, events of all IT
layers integrated with company Service Desk, synthetic transactions with
control of network environment)
- increased control of latency issues (Internet is largely based on
different vendors, flexible routing options which provides great
availability, but different routing means different latency that can change
at any time)
- dealing with more rapid changes in service model requirements

Having stated this, a Private Cloud is often implemented via a collocation
option i.e. in a Tier III high availability, highly secure DC that is
managed by a DC facility provider. Many of those doing Private Clouds want
the benefits of the above, but do not view building or maintaining a Tier
III DC facility as being strategic to their business. If a vendor does not
provide dual sites within 100km, then they will typically choose a second DC
provider as well so that the less than 100km requirement for sync
replication can be maintained.

Vendors like HPE and IBM are jumping on the growing number of Customers
migrating from Public Cloud and/or transforming their existing IT
environments to Private Cloud solutions. Google "HPE Greenlake", or review
the following IBM link:
<https://www.ibm.com/cloud/learn/introduction-to-private-cloud>

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

alanfe...@gmail.com <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> wrote:
> …
> Theoretical physicists often set natural constants like c (speed of
> light), \hbar (the reduced Planck constant), and e (charge of a positron) to 1.

One of my abiding memories was of going to a lecture by Stephen Hawking in
Cambridge in 1975, one of the last times he spoke with his own voice in
public. He had prerecorded the lecture using his voice synthesis system
(which was a DECtalk) but answered questions himself. The lecture was
jointly hosted by the university physics society and the university science
fiction society, and the tittle was something like “can black holes provide
faster than light travel to distant stars?”

He started by defining the units in which he worked - setting the speed of
light, Planck’s constant, and the electron charge, all to one. He said it
gave a set of units that was ideal for his work in studying the time just
after the Big Bang - damned hot, damned fast, and damned heavy!

Very memorable talk!

--
Paul at the paulhardy.net domain

alanfe...@gmail.com <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> wrote:
>Depends on the purpose. Use the right too for the job. And to my European f=
>reinds: How many Newtons do you weigh?

Unknown. If I jump in the air, I might weigh zero newtons on the way down.

Weight-Watchers is really misnamed. They don't actually care about your
weight, they just want to reduce your mass.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12/24/21 3:27 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> alanfe...@gmail.com <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Depends on the purpose. Use the right too for the job. And to my European f=
>> reinds: How many Newtons do you weigh?
>
> Unknown. If I jump in the air, I might weigh zero newtons on the way down.
>
> Weight-Watchers is really misnamed. They don't actually care about your
> weight, they just want to reduce your mass.
> --scott
>

And they accomplish that by lightening your wallet.

bill

Den 2021-12-24 kl. 21:27, skrev Scott Dorsey:
> alanfe...@gmail.com <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Depends on the purpose. Use the right too for the job. And to my European f=
>> reinds: How many Newtons do you weigh?
>
> Unknown. If I jump in the air, I might weigh zero newtons on the way down.

Not only on the way down, all the time after your feets leaves the ground.
No matter if you move up or down (relative to the earth surface...).

>
> Weight-Watchers is really misnamed. They don't actually care about your
> weight, they just want to reduce your mass.
> --scott
>

On 2021-12-24 04:09, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> Anyway, regarding Fahrenheit: Americans aren't switching to the "standard," Celsius, for the same reason you're not using a Dvorak keyboard. Actually, if you want to go all the way you should be using Kelvin, the only "true" temperature scale in use.

Kelvin and Celsius is easy to move between. It's just an offset difference.

Johnny

On 12/25/2021 6:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2021-12-24 04:09, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Anyway, regarding Fahrenheit: Americans aren't switching to the "standard,"
>> Celsius, for the same reason you're not using a Dvorak keyboard. Actually, if
>> you want to go all the way you should be using Kelvin, the only "true"
>> temperature scale in use.
>
> Kelvin and Celsius is easy to move between. It's just an offset difference.
>
> Johnny

As far as that goes, so is Fahrenheit with either. It's just a multiplier and
an offset.

A couple of lines from a simple VB program I have:

C = (F - 32) * 5 / 9
F = C * 9 / 5 + 32

If I remember correctly (always questionable anymore) for Kelvin the additional
constant would be 273. Maybe not.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2021-12-24 04:40, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 7:55:40 AM UTC-5, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <00B6DA8D...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
>> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>
>>>>> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
>>>>>
>>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> Right, I have heard about that. While the rest of the world has moved on.
>>>
>>> Dynes or newtons?
>
> Excellent point.
>
>> Both are metric, but newton is the SI, and hence preferred, unit. Same
>> with tesla over gauss.
>
> Depends on the purpose. Use the right too for the job. And to my European freinds: How many Newtons do you weigh?

I think I might have hit reply instead of follow up. But instead of a
long rant, I'll just observe that newtons is force.

And newtons are defined as kg * m/2^s. Anyone using SI units thus have a
pretty easy time to figure out how many newtons of force he asserts,
based on his mass. If you are lazy, you just add a "0" after your
weight, and you have approximately how many newtons you are asserting at
the surface of the earth. If you want to be a bit more precise you
multiply your weight by 9.81, and if you want to be very precise, you
need to know the actual gravity at the point where you are, and you
multiply your mass by that to find the force. (But then you need to also
really figure out what your mass is, which isn't that easy to figure out.)

And of course, if we move to the moon, our weight, and the force we
assert will be all different.

But in the most simplistic terms, since if you step on a scale, you get
a number for your weight, in kg, just multiplying it by 10 is usually
good enough for newtons.

Do you have any other "difficult" questions for your European friends?

And while we're at it, how many lbf do you weight? And what is lbf?
Force in pounds for acceleration expressed in m/s^2 ? So if you want it
in lb * foot/s^2, there isn't even a unit? How messed up is this thing?

> Back to Fahrenheit: It has its advantages. When the temperature is in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s -- each range conjures up a different feeling. The Celsius degree is too big for that. "But is based on 0 and 100 for water!" So F what [pun not intended!]. How often do you even think of those when you are involved with the temperature. You've got two numbers: 32 and 212. Is this too hard to memorize? And when you hear those numbers you know it's temperature-related. 0 and 100 could be 'most anything.

There is absolutely no problems looking at celcius in ranges and figure
out a feeling based on that. Most people do. Nonsense to think you can't.

It's not about memorizing. Any human should be able to memorize. It's
about how easy or hard it is to use.
Yes, when you are used to one thing, it is always easy. If you learn
one, and then move to another. The interesting question is - do you want
to move back? That's what tells you which you should be going with.
Don't torment kids with the broken systems of their ancestors just
because it is easier for you...

> Again, the reason Americans don't adopt Celsius is the same reason you haven't switched from the QWERTY to the Dvorak keyboard.

Definitely true in a sense. It's about using what you are used to in a way.
But you can both argue the superiority of Dvorak, and also observe and
countries like France and Germany don't even use Qwerty.

Johnny

On 2021-12-25, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> As far as that goes, so is Fahrenheit with either. It's just a multiplier and
> an offset.
>
> A couple of lines from a simple VB program I have:
>
> C = (F - 32) * 5 / 9
> F = C * 9 / 5 + 32
>

I looked at the above two statements and basically went "eek!" at
all the implicit type conversions potentially going on above. :-)

Does VB do the right thing above or do variables F and C get
type converted to an integer (with loss of information) before
the above calculations are done ?

Just curious. (In situations like that, I would have written the
integers with a decimal component, so 32 would become 32.0 for example.)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-12-23, alanfe...@gmail.com <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 9:23:26 PM UTC-5, xyzz...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Our hardware is in a data-center facility in Chelmsford MA.
>
> So I assume you are from VSI.
>

I'm amazed you don't know who John is by now...

He is VSI's compiler expert and is responsible for producing the
compilers for x86-64 VMS.

> Again, who _funds_ EISNER? I don't think anyone has answered that. Is it 100% VSI-funded? The login bit no longer asks for donations.

Currently VSI.

Eisner has had multiple homes over the years. When it was no longer
possible to host it at the previous home, VSI offered to provide a
home for it.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 12/23/2021 10:49 PM, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 9:23:26 PM UTC-5, xyzz...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:48:51 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/19/2021 5:32 PM, VAX...@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article <a6553b0e-2769-49cd...@googlegroups.com>, "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfe...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:43:26 AM UTC-5, Volker Halle wrote:
>>>>>> EISNER is co-located in a data center of VSI since a couple of years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Volker.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you know what city? Whose data center? Just curious.
>>>>
>>>> Well, VSI is in Burlington.
>>> Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there is a
>>> pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
>>>
>> Our hardware is in a data-center facility in Chelmsford MA.
>
> So I assume you are from VSI.
>
> Again, who _funds_ EISNER? I don't think anyone has answered that. Is it 100% VSI-funded?

VSI host it so VSI pays for space, power, cooling, internet etc..

I assume VSI has donated licenses as well.

So what more cost are there to fund?

Arne

On 2021-12-26 00:33, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 12/25/2021 6:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2021-12-24 04:09, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Anyway, regarding Fahrenheit: Americans aren't switching to the
>>> "standard,"
>>> Celsius, for the same reason you're not using a Dvorak keyboard.
>>> Actually, if
>>> you want to go all the way you should be using Kelvin, the only "true"
>>> temperature scale in use.
>>
>> Kelvin and Celsius is easy to move between. It's just an offset
>> difference.
>>
>>   Johnny
>
> As far as that goes, so is Fahrenheit with either.  It's just a
> multiplier and an offset.

Of course. But that multiplier is what makes it uglier. Yes, sure,
anyone can do it. But it's much less straight forward. And you have two
different offsets for C and K when you come from F.

Everything is just math in the end. Nothing strange to see here. It's
just a question of how much do you need to remember and compute.

> A couple of lines from a simple VB program I have:
>
>     C = (F - 32) * 5 / 9
>     F = C * 9 / 5 + 32
>
> If I remember correctly (always questionable anymore) for Kelvin the
> additional constant would be 273.  Maybe not.

273.15 unless I remember wrong. (Checked - I remembered right.)
So if you have C, add 273.15 and you have K.
Of course, in most cases, just 273 is good enough.

Johnny

On 12/26/21 11:13 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2021-12-26 00:33, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 12/25/2021 6:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-24 04:09, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Anyway, regarding Fahrenheit: Americans aren't switching to the
>>>> "standard,"
>>>> Celsius, for the same reason you're not using a Dvorak keyboard.
>>>> Actually, if
>>>> you want to go all the way you should be using Kelvin, the only "true"
>>>> temperature scale in use.
>>>
>>> Kelvin and Celsius is easy to move between. It's just an offset
>>> difference.
>>>
>>>   Johnny
>>
>> As far as that goes, so is Fahrenheit with either.  It's just a
>> multiplier and an offset.
>
> Of course. But that multiplier is what makes it uglier. Yes, sure,
> anyone can do it. But it's much less straight forward. And you have two
> different offsets for C and K when you come from F.
>
> Everything is just math in the end. Nothing strange to see here. It's
> just a question of how much do you need to remember and compute.
>

Or, for those of us who have lived with both you just hear the number
and know if it's cold or hot or comfortable.

>> A couple of lines from a simple VB program I have:
>>
>>      C = (F - 32) * 5 / 9
>>      F = C * 9 / 5 + 32
>>
>> If I remember correctly (always questionable anymore) for Kelvin the
>> additional constant would be 273.  Maybe not.
>
> 273.15 unless I remember wrong. (Checked - I remembered right.)
> So if you have C, add 273.15 and you have K.
> Of course, in most cases, just 273 is good enough.
>

Other than some labs, who actually uses Kelvin? I didn't in
High School chemistry or physics. I didn't in college chemistry
or physics. And I certainly never have in real life beyond seeing
it used in a science fiction book once in a while. :-)

bill

On 26/12/2021 16:46, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/26/21 11:13 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2021-12-26 00:33, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 12/25/2021 6:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-24 04:09, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Anyway, regarding Fahrenheit: Americans aren't switching to the
>>>>> "standard,"
>>>>> Celsius, for the same reason you're not using a Dvorak keyboard.
>>>>> Actually, if
>>>>> you want to go all the way you should be using Kelvin, the only "true"
>>>>> temperature scale in use.
>>>>
>>>> Kelvin and Celsius is easy to move between. It's just an offset
>>>> difference.
>>>>
>>>>   Johnny
>>>
>>> As far as that goes, so is Fahrenheit with either.  It's just a
>>> multiplier and an offset.
>>
>> Of course. But that multiplier is what makes it uglier. Yes, sure,
>> anyone can do it. But it's much less straight forward. And you have
>> two different offsets for C and K when you come from F.
>>
>> Everything is just math in the end. Nothing strange to see here. It's
>> just a question of how much do you need to remember and compute.
>>
>
> Or, for those of us who have lived with both you just hear the number
> and know if it's cold or hot or comfortable.
>
>
>>> A couple of lines from a simple VB program I have:
>>>
>>>      C = (F - 32) * 5 / 9
>>>      F = C * 9 / 5 + 32
>>>
>>> If I remember correctly (always questionable anymore) for Kelvin the
>>> additional constant would be 273.  Maybe not.
>>
>> 273.15 unless I remember wrong. (Checked - I remembered right.)
>> So if you have C, add 273.15 and you have K.
>> Of course, in most cases, just 273 is good enough.
>>
>
> Other than some labs, who actually uses Kelvin?  I didn't in
> High School chemistry or physics.  I didn't in college chemistry
> or physics.  And I certainly never have in real life beyond seeing
> it used in a science fiction book once in a while.  :-)
>
> bill

I certainly did in the early 70s in both Chemistry and Physics

--
Chris

Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Other than some labs, who actually uses Kelvin?

All of Thermodynamics and its applications.
That's way more than just "some labs".

> I didn't in
> High School chemistry or physics. I didn't in college chemistry
> or physics.

If they didn't teach you more than just Newton's mechanics...
Try to apply the Gas laws using Celsius instead of Kelvin.

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 5:55:29 AM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-12-23, alanfe...@gmail.com <alanfe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 9:23:26 PM UTC-5, xyzz...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Our hardware is in a data-center facility in Chelmsford MA.
> >
> > So I assume you are from VSI.
> >
> I'm amazed you don't know who John is by now...

Why? I've not been active in cov for a long time. Only in Oct of 2021 did I chime in and start using EISNER:: again. Why should I know who he is? And his handle is given as xyzz...@gmail.com. Hardly illuminating!!!

Back in, probably late Sep 2021, it was just on a lark that I thought I'd check the Freeware page and see the status of my contributions. I was disappointed to find that my main one, TO.COM, was languishing un-downloadable. And a rather old version to boot! So I thought I'd update it and resubmit.

Hmmm. Some quick research shows that I reconnected with EISNER:: around Feb 19, 2021, but didn't chime back in until Sep 30, 2021.

Anyway, so starting Sep 30, 2021, I started using EISNER:: again. And I started to work on my TO.COM so that I could submit an up-to-date version.

Additionally, my last VMS stint ended in 2018, where my main task was -- you guessed it -- moving stuff off of a couple of Alphas. No real users. Just me and a couple of co-workers tending to file transfer stuff. Backups were contracted out to some other company before I arrived.

Back on EISNER::, I noticed that at least one of the bugs of SET DEFAULT was fixed, and so posted on cov asking about it. It also suddenly occurred to me that I was using EDT with 60 lines or so. Say what?! EDT didn't used to do that, did it? So I added that as a bonus question. Found the release notes for the EDT bit on my own. Still haven't seen anything about SET DEFAULT other than an some old release notes for VMS 5.5-2 documenting at least two of the bugs and saying they would be fixed "in a future release of VMS." The second one was actually a SHOW DEFAULT bug, more or less, and the notes gave an example of it. It is still broken on EISNER:: -- again something with colons. I did some googling, but to no avail. Then I found the old cov post about SET DEFAULT not changing disk when you didn't include a colon in the equivalence name! (See
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms/c/7oHZdsabAcc/m/HlqfDSFcLOYJ
) That has been fixed.

Other than all that, I haven't really been keeping up with VMS much -- until now. So why should I know this John dude?

> He is VSI's compiler expert and is responsible for producing the
> compilers for x86-64 VMS.

Awesome!

> > Again, who _funds_ EISNER? I don't think anyone has answered that. Is it 100% VSI-funded? The login bit no longer asks for donations.
> Currently VSI.
>
> Eisner has had multiple homes over the years. When it was no longer
> possible to host it at the previous home, VSI offered to provide a
> home for it.

Very kind of them!

Thirty thumbs up!!!

> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Alan

On 12/26/2021 12:28 PM, Michael Kraemer @ home wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>> Other than some labs, who actually uses Kelvin?
>
> All of Thermodynamics and its applications.
> That's way more than just "some labs".
>
>> I didn't in
>> High School chemistry or physics. I didn't in college chemistry
>> or physics.
>
> If they didn't teach you more than just Newton's mechanics...
> Try to apply the Gas laws using Celsius instead of Kelvin.

:-)

Try to apply the gas laws 50 years after studying them, and then never using
them again.

:-)

For most, understanding how things work is enough, unless needing to use the
details. Not understanding how things work is not so good.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 11:46:42 AM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/26/21 11:13 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > On 2021-12-26 00:33, Dave Froble wrote:
> >> On 12/25/2021 6:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >>> On 2021-12-24 04:09, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Anyway, regarding Fahrenheit: Americans aren't switching to the
> >>>> "standard,"
> >>>> Celsius, for the same reason you're not using a Dvorak keyboard.
> >>>> Actually, if
> >>>> you want to go all the way you should be using Kelvin, the only "true"
> >>>> temperature scale in use.
> >>>
[...]
> Other than some labs, who actually uses Kelvin? I didn't in
> High School chemistry or physics. I didn't in college chemistry
> or physics. And I certainly never have in real life beyond seeing
> it used in a science fiction book once in a while. :-)

Someone was bragging about standards and SI units and such. The SI temperature scale is kelvins, not Celsius.

Man, you had some pretty lame physics and chemistry courses! Thermodynamics uses kelvins. The ideal gas law works in kelvins, not Celsius. As a Ph.D. in physics, I can tell you that Celsius has no place other than establishing its definition based on -- kelvins!

>
> bill

Alan

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 6:35:26 PM UTC-5, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2021-12-24 04:40, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 7:55:40 AM UTC-5, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> >> In article <00B6DA8D...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
> >> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> >>
> >>>>> As is inches, feet, yards, miles, pounds, quarts, gallons, etc ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Right, I have heard about that. While the rest of the world has moved on.
> >>>
> >>> Dynes or newtons?
> >
> > Excellent point.
> >
> >> Both are metric, but newton is the SI, and hence preferred, unit. Same
> >> with tesla over gauss.

The SI unit for temperature is kelvin, not Celsius. (Or kelvins. I never got that bit straightened out. Used to be degrees kelvin. That was better.

> > Depends on the purpose. Use the right too for the job. And to my European freinds: How many Newtons do you weigh?
> I think I might have hit reply instead of follow up. But instead of a
> long rant, I'll just observe that newtons is force.
>
> And newtons are defined as kg * m/2^s. Anyone using SI units thus have a
> pretty easy time to figure out how many newtons of force he asserts,
> based on his mass. If you are lazy, you just add a "0" after your
> weight, and you have approximately how many newtons you are asserting at
> the surface of the earth. If you want to be a bit more precise you
> multiply your weight by 9.81, and if you want to be very precise, you
> need to know the actual gravity at the point where you are, and you
> multiply your mass by that to find the force. (But then you need to also
> really figure out what your mass is, which isn't that easy to figure out.)
>
> And of course, if we move to the moon, our weight, and the force we
> assert will be all different.
>
> But in the most simplistic terms, since if you step on a scale, you get
> a number for your weight, in kg, just multiplying it by 10 is usually
> good enough for newtons.
>
> Do you have any other "difficult" questions for your European friends?
>
> And while we're at it, how many lbf do you weight? And what is lbf?

You bet! I weigh myself every morning and can tell you in an instant. I'd rather not on a public forum though! And I don't even have to add a 0, which is not quite accurate enough in my book. If memorizing 32 and 212 is too much effort (which you don't even need to know the majority of the time you use temperature), then multiplying by 9.8 certainly is! Yes, you can figure it out, but if you go by that standard, neither system is superior.

And it's lbs., not lbf. Well, I suppose you could use lbf. I'd have to look it up. Not really relevant here.

> Force in pounds for acceleration expressed in m/s^2 ? So if you want it
> in lb * foot/s^2, there isn't even a unit? How messed up is this thing?

I never said anything about acceleration. I was talking about weighing things, esp. yourself. Well, I recall a value of 32 ft/sec/sec for g. Different system, different units and such. What's wrong with ft/sec/sec?

> > Back to Fahrenheit: It has its advantages. When the temperature is in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s -- each range conjures up a different feeling. The Celsius degree is too big for that. "But is based on 0 and 100 for water!" So F what [pun not intended!]. How often do you even think of those when you are involved with the temperature. You've got two numbers: 32 and 212. Is this too hard to memorize? And when you hear those numbers you know it's temperature-related. 0 and 100 could be 'most anything.
> There is absolutely no problems looking at celcius in ranges and figure
> out a feeling based on that. Most people do. Nonsense to think you can't.

Really? I'm talking ranges of 10. In Celsius if you say it's in the 20s, what does that really mean? Anywhere from 68 F to 86 Fahranheit. Is it hot out or comfortable? If I say 70s F, it's comfortable or slightly warm. Sure, if you give a particular number, like 23 deg C., you can have a feel for it.. But in ranges of tens, F is clearly better.

>
> It's not about memorizing. Any human should be able to memorize. It's
> about how easy or hard it is to use.
> Yes, when you are used to one thing, it is always easy. If you learn
> one, and then move to another. The interesting question is - do you want
> to move back? That's what tells you which you should be going with.
> Don't torment kids with the broken systems of their ancestors just
> because it is easier for you...

Teaching the kiddies Celsius _instead_ of Fahrenheit would be "torture." Just watch or read any U.S. weather forecast.

> > Again, the reason Americans don't adopt Celsius is the same reason you haven't switched from the QWERTY to the Dvorak keyboard.
> Definitely true in a sense. It's about using what you are used to in a way.
> But you can both argue the superiority of Dvorak, and also observe and
> countries like France and Germany don't even use Qwerty.

Really? What do France and Germany use instead? Just askin'.

>
> Johnny

Alan

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 6:35:26 PM UTC-5, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2021-12-24 04:40, alanfe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 7:55:40 AM UTC-5, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> >> In article <00B6DA8D...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
> >> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
[...]
> It's not about memorizing. Any human should be able to memorize. It's
> about how easy or hard it is to use.
> Yes, when you are used to one thing, it is always easy. If you learn
> one, and then move to another. The interesting question is - do you want
> to move back? That's what tells you which you should be going with.
> Don't torment kids with the broken systems of their ancestors just
> because it is easier for you...

This cuts both ways. How is F hard to use? It's hard for YOU for the same reason you say C is hard for Americans: ". . . when you are used to one thing, it is always easy."

Yes, I'd want to move back. Why wouldn't I want to move back? When you switch to the Dvorak keyboard, let me know. Then I'll reconsider.

In science I like kelvins. For weather, cooking, laundry and such, I like F.. Anything else would involve pointless effort. If something is given in C, like wash temperatures often are now, I convert. No biggie. 20 F is 68 C. 30 F is 86. Then just add or subtract 18 per 10 for anything else. Good enough.

[...]

> Johnny

Alan

Michael Kraemer @ home <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote:
>Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>> Other than some labs, who actually uses Kelvin?
>
>All of Thermodynamics and its applications.
>That's way more than just "some labs".

My thermo class used Rankine, but it was in the seventies.

Still, Kelvin gets used a lot for things like color temperatures, where it
is useful because color changes are perfectly proportional (which they would
not be if they were measured in centigrate).
temperature is.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."