On Fri, 13 Jan 2023 22:25:39 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman
<REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:

> Please proceed.

Without tradein, to buy the iPhone 14 128GB at the Naples, FL
T-Mobile store (and the agreed upon accessories) cost $1,024.53

That dropped to $891.20 after subtracting the agreed upon iPhone 11
tradein value using the agreed upon statistically valid calculations.

Since this must be believable and not a sham, if you disagree with any of
the values, please call the store yourself and ask them to verify.

I repeat. Do not disagree with any of the prices until AFTER you've called
the store and verified that the values below are true and correct.

Today I called that T-Mobile store (239) 213-1229 and spoke to
Christian who was very helpful and who quoted rounded numbers.

He also used the vernacular (like "Apple brick") so he seemed to be an
experienced salesman who quoted most of the numbers off the bat.

I didn't want to ask too much in a single call so I only asked
about the Apple tradein that we agreed upon earlier.

At that store, the tradein for the Apple iPhone 11, he said, was $400 (he
didn't even ask me what the specs were, interestingly enough).

I could buy a new iPhone 14 128GB for $800 + tax = *56 out the door.
Or I could finance it with an interest-free 24-month loan
at, he said, $95 out the door and $33.33/month for two years.

He quoted these numbers off the top of his head but for the prices on
parts, he had to ask someone to get these prices below for him.

He said all the Apple cases he has are $50 (silicon & white).
He didn't have any other colors than those two & I said it's fine.

He said he wasn't aware if Apple even made the screen protectors.
Certainly he said they do not sell an Apple brand at that store.

What he sells for screens is a Zagg for $60 and a Goto brand for $40
but he warned that the GoTo brand (which he said was the T-Mobile
store brand) does not cover the whole screen (the Zagg does).

He says the phone comes with a cable, but he was unaware of the length.
Googling, it seems to be 1 meter so that's one 3-foot cable done already.

He didn't carry Apple branded cables but he had a Belkin 4-foot cable for
$15 and a Goto brand cable (presumably also 4 feet?) for $10.
Phone comes with cable

The Belkin 6-foot cable was $25.

Surprisingly (to me anyway) he sell what he called the "Apple brick"
for $19.99 (which was one of the rare numbers he didn't round off).

I realize we assumed no repairs but I asked anyway about AppleCare as I'm
curious how expensive it is, but they don't sell AppleCare at T-Mobile.

He did mention they have their own brand but when I asked about the cost he
said they'd work it out on my bill with me when I go to the store so I
dropped the query at that.

Did I miss anything (ooops. I forgot to ask about the SIM but let's assume
it will be zero for now as that seems to be contentious with some people).

Let's add that up.
$800 phone
$50 case
$50 screen (I averaged the better-covering Zagg with the worse Goto)
$0 for the first 3-foot cable because it comes in the box
$12.50 for the other 4-foot cable (I averaged the Belkin & Goto)
$25 for the 6-foot Belkin cable
$20 for the Apple brick (I presume it is the correct spec for the phone)

If you don't want me to average the screen protector prices, let me know
which one to pick as it only makes a small difference in the price either
way but I want this to be a valid (not cherry picked!) test so if you don't
like the averages - just tell me which screen protector you would buy.

The base iPhone 14 T-Mobile store-bought subtotal without tax is $957.5.
Adding the $67.03 Naples FL out-the-door 7% tax makes that $1,024.53.

We already decided to take only 1/3rd of the tradein because only 1/3 of
the people (according to numbers previously posted by someone else) either
have a tradable phone (for example, they didn't shatter their old phone),
or who want to part with it or go through the hassle and effort.

That makes the statistically valid average tradein 1/3rd of $400=$133.33.
Unless I made a mistake, our agreed-upon statistically valid price
comparison ends up being these two numbers, if we do what most people do,
which is buy whatever we need at the store.

Out the T-Mobile store the base iPhone 14 outright costs us $1,024.53.
With tradein assumed 1/3rd of the time, that drops to $891.20.

I don't want to call back so soon with the Android query so for now,
would you please look at what Christian told me and check that I didn't
cook any of the numbers because the goal is to find what a realistic
(not ficticious!) total cost of ownership is which is believable.

Otherwise, if I picked all the terms and conditions, it's a sham.

Realistic (not ficticious) total cost of ownership = $891.20
(which does not count the cellular plan or iCloud costs, or
app costs, or any insurance subscriptions whatsoever.)

It's just the cost of the hardware, WITH the specified tradein.

Since this must be believable and not a sham, if you disagree with any of
the values, please call the store yourself and ask them to verify.

On 1/14/2023 9:59 AM, sms wrote:
> On 1/14/2023 9:56 AM, AJL wrote:

>> Many of the fast food places near me now ask for tips on the credit
>> card machine...

> One thing that's annoying is restaurants that calculate a suggested tip
> on the total bill, including sales tax. I've got no problem with a
> 15-20% tip when dining in a restaurant but it should be on the pre-tax
> total.

With sit down restaurants the bill comes AFTER the meal so no pressure.
With fast food restaurants they know what I tipped them BEFORE they fix
my food... 8-O

On Sat, 14 Jan 2023 09:56:12 -0800, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>On 1/14/2023 7:12 AM, sms wrote:
>
>> Adding on strange fees is a great way to raise prices.
>> One pizza place near me adds an 8% "online ordering fee."
>
>Many of the fast food places near me now ask for tips on the credit card
>machine...

Asking (really just giving you the opportunity to tip that way) and
getting are two different things.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2023 11:37:42 -0800, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>On 1/14/2023 9:59 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 1/14/2023 9:56 AM, AJL wrote:
>
>>> Many of the fast food places near me now ask for tips on the credit
>>> card machine...
>
>> One thing that's annoying is restaurants that calculate a suggested tip
>> on the total bill, including sales tax. I've got no problem with a
>> 15-20% tip when dining in a restaurant but it should be on the pre-tax
>> total.

Yes. That's why I ignore the suggested amounts and add my own
calculated amounts.

>
>With sit down restaurants the bill comes AFTER the meal so no pressure.

Usually it comes AFTER the meal, but not necessarily. For example, my
wife and I go to a sit-down restaurant for breakfast twice a week. We
always get the same things and the waitress knows us and doesn't even
ask what we want. I often get the bill and give her a credit card
before the food comes.

>With fast food restaurants they know what I tipped them BEFORE they fix
>my food... 8-O

JAB wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Jan 2023 22:25:39 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman
><REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Please proceed.
>
>Without tradein, to buy the iPhone 14 128GB at the Naples, FL
>T-Mobile store (and the agreed upon accessories) cost $1,024.53
>
>That dropped to $891.20 after subtracting the agreed upon iPhone 11
>tradein value using the agreed upon statistically valid calculations.
>
>Since this must be believable and not a sham, if you disagree with
>any of the values, please call the store yourself and ask them to
>verify.
>
>I repeat. Do not disagree with any of the prices until AFTER you've
>called the store and verified that the values below are true and
>correct.
>
>Today I called that T-Mobile store (239) 213-1229 and spoke to
>Christian who was very helpful and who quoted rounded numbers.
>
>He also used the vernacular (like "Apple brick") so he seemed to be an
>experienced salesman who quoted most of the numbers off the bat.
>
>I didn't want to ask too much in a single call so I only asked
>about the Apple tradein that we agreed upon earlier.
>
>At that store, the tradein for the Apple iPhone 11, he said, was $400
>(he didn't even ask me what the specs were, interestingly enough).
>
>I could buy a new iPhone 14 128GB for $800 + tax = *56 out the door.
>Or I could finance it with an interest-free 24-month loan
>at, he said, $95 out the door and $33.33/month for two years.
>
>He quoted these numbers off the top of his head but for the prices on
>parts, he had to ask someone to get these prices below for him.
>
>He said all the Apple cases he has are $50 (silicon & white).
>He didn't have any other colors than those two & I said it's fine.
>
>He said he wasn't aware if Apple even made the screen protectors.
>Certainly he said they do not sell an Apple brand at that store.
>
>What he sells for screens is a Zagg for $60 and a Goto brand for $40
>but he warned that the GoTo brand (which he said was the T-Mobile
>store brand) does not cover the whole screen (the Zagg does).
>
>He says the phone comes with a cable, but he was unaware of the
>length. Googling, it seems to be 1 meter so that's one 3-foot cable
>done already.
>
>He didn't carry Apple branded cables but he had a Belkin 4-foot cable
>for $15 and a Goto brand cable (presumably also 4 feet?) for $10.
>Phone comes with cable
>
>The Belkin 6-foot cable was $25.
>
>Surprisingly (to me anyway) he sell what he called the "Apple brick"
>for $19.99 (which was one of the rare numbers he didn't round off).
>
>I realize we assumed no repairs but I asked anyway about AppleCare as
>I'm curious how expensive it is, but they don't sell AppleCare at
>T-Mobile.
>
>He did mention they have their own brand but when I asked about the
>cost he said they'd work it out on my bill with me when I go to the
>store so I dropped the query at that.
>
>Did I miss anything (ooops. I forgot to ask about the SIM but let's
>assume it will be zero for now as that seems to be contentious with
>some people).
>
>Let's add that up.
> $800 phone
> $50 case
> $50 screen (I averaged the better-covering Zagg with the worse Goto)
> $0 for the first 3-foot cable because it comes in the box
> $12.50 for the other 4-foot cable (I averaged the Belkin & Goto)
> $25 for the 6-foot Belkin cable
> $20 for the Apple brick (I presume it is the correct spec for the
>phone)
>
>If you don't want me to average the screen protector prices, let me
>know which one to pick as it only makes a small difference in the
>price either way but I want this to be a valid (not cherry picked!)
>test so if you don't like the averages - just tell me which screen
>protector you would buy.
>
>The base iPhone 14 T-Mobile store-bought subtotal without tax is
>$957.5. Adding the $67.03 Naples FL out-the-door 7% tax makes that
>$1,024.53.
>
>We already decided to take only 1/3rd of the tradein because only 1/3
>of the people (according to numbers previously posted by someone
>else) either have a tradable phone (for example, they didn't shatter
>their old phone), or who want to part with it or go through the
>hassle and effort.
>
>That makes the statistically valid average tradein 1/3rd of
>$400=$133.33. Unless I made a mistake, our agreed-upon statistically
>valid price comparison ends up being these two numbers, if we do what
>most people do, which is buy whatever we need at the store.
>
>Out the T-Mobile store the base iPhone 14 outright costs us $1,024.53.
>With tradein assumed 1/3rd of the time, that drops to $891.20.
>
>I don't want to call back so soon with the Android query so for now,
>would you please look at what Christian told me and check that I
>didn't cook any of the numbers because the goal is to find what a
>realistic (not ficticious!) total cost of ownership is which is
>believable.
>
>Otherwise, if I picked all the terms and conditions, it's a sham.
>
>Realistic (not ficticious) total cost of ownership = $891.20
>(which does not count the cellular plan or iCloud costs, or
>app costs, or any insurance subscriptions whatsoever.)
>
>It's just the cost of the hardware, WITH the specified tradein.
>
>Since this must be believable and not a sham, if you disagree with
>any of the values, please call the store yourself and ask them to
>verify.

Thank you for doing all that work. That number sounds reasonable to
me. Frankly I can't remember what I paid for my iPhone 14, and I
traded in the iPhone 12 because the charging port had started going bad
after 18 months. I did not have AppleCare insurance.

The only thing I would add is the Apple iPhone 14 does not have a SIM
card. It is completely an e-SIM. I was surprised when they sold me my
phone without a physical SIM. In fact there was a 1-day delay in
getting my new phone activated because their system was on the fritz.
They reprocessed my trade-in and put a physical SIM in it to give me
something to use.

On 1/14/2023 11:48 AM, badgolferman wrote:

<snip>

> Thank you for doing all that work. That number sounds reasonable to
> me. Frankly I can't remember what I paid for my iPhone 14, and I
> traded in the iPhone 12 because the charging port had started going bad
> after 18 months. I did not have AppleCare insurance.
>
> The only thing I would add is the Apple iPhone 14 does not have a SIM
> card. It is completely an e-SIM. I was surprised when they sold me my
> phone without a physical SIM. In fact there was a 1-day delay in
> getting my new phone activated because their system was on the fritz.
> They reprocessed my trade-in and put a physical SIM in it to give me
> something to use.

1. The SIM card cost is not contentious at all. It's free for both a
physical SIM or an eSIM. Two people posting misinformation claiming that
it costs $20 or $25 does not constitute contentiousness!

2. T-Mobile's "Premium Device Protection" offering includes AppleCare+
(for iPhones), unless they've changed things recently.

3. T-Mobile apparently charges slightly more for the Apple 20W charger
than Apple itself (as does Verizon).

4. If you want device protection, without signing up for AppleCare+, you
can use a credit card that includes that protection if you pay your
monthly bill with that card. I cover that in the document "Realistic
Total Cost of Ownership—iPhone Versus Android" at
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BUZuX-i1set7ktS4lbfGBmzdiCLAoOKfqp0ZSOrZlhk>
or see
<https://www.wellsfargo.com/credit-cards/active-cash/guide-to-benefits/?FPID=012688IDF40000&vendor_code=LS&sub_channel=AFF&siteID=SWlnSnn6x54-sKkjKobIPZ2Zo2WYyczc.Q#cell>

5. If you want an extra year of warranty coverage, you can buy the phone
outright with a credit card that includes that, but you won't get the
subsidy from the carrier that you get with financing. Many credit cards
offer that protection, including some with no annual fee, i.e.
<https://www.capitalone.com/credit-cards/ventureone/>.

6. In the document "Realistic Total Cost of Ownership—iPhone Versus
Android" at
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BUZuX-i1set7ktS4lbfGBmzdiCLAoOKfqp0ZSOrZlhk>
I use the trade-in value offered by Verizon.

On 1/14/2023 11:37 AM, AJL wrote:
> On 1/14/2023 9:59 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 1/14/2023 9:56 AM, AJL wrote:
>
>>> Many of the fast food places near me now ask for tips on the credit
>>> card machine...
>
>> One thing that's annoying is restaurants that calculate a suggested tip
>> on the total bill, including sales tax. I've got no problem with a
>> 15-20% tip when dining in a restaurant but it should be on the pre-tax
>> total.
>
> With sit down restaurants the bill comes AFTER the meal so no pressure.
> With fast food restaurants they know what I tipped them BEFORE they fix
> my food...  8-O

With the labor shortage, more and more sit-down restaurants in my area
are going to "modified self-serve," where you order on a kiosk or from
your phone, and pay in advance then you pick up your food when the pager
device goes off. With that system they'll know the tip in advance. But I
think that the risks of them doing something to your food because of a
poor tip are pretty small.

On 1/14/2023 11:48 AM, badgolferman wrote:

<snip>

> Thank you for doing all that work. That number sounds reasonable to
> me. Frankly I can't remember what I paid for my iPhone 14, and I
> traded in the iPhone 12 because the charging port had started going bad
> after 18 months. I did not have AppleCare insurance.

How much did you spend at the T-Mobile store for a charger, cables,
case, and screen protector for your iPhone 14?

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes:
> With that system they'll know the tip in advance. But I
>think that the risks of them doing something to your food because of a
>poor tip are pretty small.

From one 2022 article of the World-Wide Web:

|A new survey finds eight in 10 food delivery workers admit to
|eating part of their customer's order!
....
|putting their sticky fingers on someone's chicken may not
|even be the most disgusting thing happening on the way to the
|front door.
....
|opening and then resealing packages (17%).
....
|In fact, nearly three in four delivery drivers (73%) say the
|biggest reason they don’t like their customers is because
|they give bad tips.
....
|Tip baiting is a scheme where customers place an order
|online, type in how much they intend to tip - usually a
|generous amount - and then zero out the tip after the
|delivery.
....
quoted from a 2022 article of the World-Wide Web.

On 1/14/2023 1:06 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes:
>> With that system they'll know the tip in advance. But I
>> think that the risks of them doing something to your food because of a
>> poor tip are pretty small.
>
> From one 2022 article of the World-Wide Web:
>
> |A new survey finds eight in 10 food delivery workers admit to
> |eating part of their customer's order!
> ...
> |putting their sticky fingers on someone's chicken may not
> |even be the most disgusting thing happening on the way to the
> |front door.
> ...
> |opening and then resealing packages (17%).
> ...
> |In fact, nearly three in four delivery drivers (73%) say the
> |biggest reason they don’t like their customers is because
> |they give bad tips.
> ...
> |Tip baiting is a scheme where customers place an order
> |online, type in how much they intend to tip - usually a
> |generous amount - and then zero out the tip after the
> |delivery.
> ...
> quoted from a 2022 article of the World-Wide Web.

Yeah, delivery is a whole other story. I haven't had food delivered in
may decades. I'd rather pick it up from the restaurant so they don't
lose their 30% to the delivery company.

On 1/14/2023 12:46 PM, sms wrote:

> With the labor shortage, more and more sit-down restaurants

When I said sit down restaurant I meant one where the order is taken and
the food is served at the table. But I now realize that is not the
definition used by many others.

> in my area are going to "modified self-serve," where you order on a
> kiosk or from your phone, and pay in advance then you pick up your
> food when the pager device goes off.

Yup. Some of those here too. But for me it's not really a sit down
unless you have to waste time waiting to be waited on. Unfortunately I'm
required to go to one a week by the iPhone owner in the house...

> With that system they'll know the tip in advance. But I think that
> the risks of them doing something to your food because of a poor tip
> are pretty small.

Agreed. And since I usually tip very well I don't worry too much about
it anyway...

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 1/14/2023 11:48 AM, badgolferman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Thank you for doing all that work. That number sounds reasonable to
>> me. Frankly I can't remember what I paid for my iPhone 14, and I
>> traded in the iPhone 12 because the charging port had started going bad
>> after 18 months. I did not have AppleCare insurance.
>
> How much did you spend at the T-Mobile store for a charger, cables,
> case, and screen protector for your iPhone 14?
>
>

I got a case for free when I asked for it. I got an apple 25W charger for
free when purchasing my iPhone 12. I only got the one three foot cable in
the box but had some six foot cables at home. I don’t use a screen
protector.

When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was usb-c I
asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to be purchased
separately. I pushed the phone back towards him. He pushed it back toward
me with a charger on top of it.

On 1/14/2023 3:20 PM, badgolferman wrote:

<snip>

> I got a case for free when I asked for it. I got an apple 25W charger for
> free when purchasing my iPhone 12. I only got the one three foot cable in
> the box but had some six foot cables at home. I don’t use a screen
> protector.
>
> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was usb-c I
> asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to be purchased
> separately. I pushed the phone back towards him. He pushed it back toward
> me with a charger on top of it.

Good information.

Okay, so for the iPhone 14 for you:
$0 for a case.
No charger purchased since you already had one.
No cable purchased since you already had plenty, plus on was included.
No screen protector since you don't want to use one.

I suspect that by now most buyers of an iPhone 14 have obtained a USB-C
PD charger since they're likely upgrading from an X or newer.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2023 19:48:11 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman
<REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for doing all that work. That number sounds reasonable to
> me. Frankly I can't remember what I paid for my iPhone 14, and I
> traded in the iPhone 12 because the charging port had started going bad
> after 18 months. I did not have AppleCare insurance.

And now for the Android side of the total ownership cost story.
old Android = Samsung Galaxy S20 standard model
new Android = Samsung Galaxy S22 standard model

After a few hours, I called that T-Mobile store (239) 213-1229 again.

This time I spoke to Zonya who also quoted rounded numbers off the top
of her head for the Android phones, and she also had to look up the
price of the accessories.

The Samsung S22 128GB is $800.

They have the same $33/month interest-free payment plan if you want it,
where you pay the tax and activation/upgrade fee up front (more about that
activation/upgrade fee in a moment).

She said they don't sell a Samsung branded case at the T-Mobile store.
She said they have an Otterbox case for $65 and a T-Mobile case is $40.
She said you can't get a Samsung screen protector at their store.
But a Zagg screen protector is $60 and a T-Mobile one is $40.

A 3-foot USB-C to USB-C cable comes in the box but no charger.
She said they don't sell a 3-foot USB-C to USB-C but they have 4 feet.
The 4-foot USB-C to USB-C is from T-Mobile and it's $15.
Their only 6-foot USB-C to USB-C cable in stock is the Belkin at $25.

She said they sell the Samsung branded charger for $20.

There is currently a tradein promotion (just as their was with the iPhone),
where she said if the old Samsung Galaxy S20 is in working order, T-Mobile
will give me $400.

I asked about the SIM card this time and Zonya took a couple of minutes to
describe what is, in effect, an inescapable $35 activation/upgrade fee.

Basically, she said that you can't get a new phone set up with them without
paying that $35 upgrade/activation fee (so I probably should have added
that fee to the iPhone costs also, but I didn't know about it until now).

I'm not sure yet why $56 + $35 doesn't equal $95 but if I add 7% sales tax
to that activation/upgrade fee, it comes to $94 and change so maybe that?

Notice the terminology. If you're activating a phone with T-Mobile, then
you pay the $35 activation fee. If you're upgrading from the old phone to a
new phone, you pay the $35 upgrade fee. Same fee. Different name.

As for the Samsung Care, I didn't ask as I didn't want Zonya to ask me to
come into the store, which isn't possible so I averted that by not asking.

Let's add that up.
$800 phone
$35 activation/upgrade fee (also applies to the iPhone transaction)
$52.50 case (I averaged the otterbox case with the t-mobile case)
$50 screen (I averaged the Zagg with the T-Mobile Goto screen)
$0 for the first 3-foot cable because it comes in the box
$15 for the 4-foot cable (they only had the T-mobile branded cable)
$25 for the 6-foot Belkin cable
$20 for the Samsung brick (I presume it is the correct spec for the phone)

The base Galaxy S22 store-bought subtotal without tax is $997.50.
Adding the $69.83 Naples FL out-the-door 7% tax makes that $1,067.33.

We already decided to take only 1/3rd of the tradein because only 1/3 of
the people (according to numbers previously posted by someone else) either
have a tradable phone (for example, they didn't shatter their old phone),
or who want to part with it or go through the hassle and effort.

That makes the statistically valid average tradein 1/3rd of $400=$133.33.

Out the T-Mobile store the base Galaxy S22 outright costs us $1,067.33.
With tradein assumed 1/3rd of the time, that drops to $934.33.

Again, I don't think badgolferman is going to object but others might
object to these figures, but I assert they are honestly obtained, using a
process where I can't skew the results (which is critically important).

I didn't know how the results would stack up, and I have to add the $35
activation/upgrade fee to the iPhone, so let's look at the comparison in
another post.

Since this must be believable and not a sham, if you disagree with any of
the values, please call the store yourself and ask them to verify.

If the numbers above stand, then that's what it costs for a typical person
to go into a T-Mobile store in Naples Florida today, to buy the phone.

Hence, those are realistic numbers, not ficticious numbers and as such
should be believable unless I made a mistake (let me know if I did).

On Sat, 14 Jan 2023 23:20:24 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman
<REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:

> I got a case for free when I asked for it. I got an apple 25W charger for
> free when purchasing my iPhone 12. I only got the one three foot cable in
> the box but had some six foot cables at home. I don�t use a screen
> protector.
>
> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was usb-c I
> asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to be purchased
> separately. I pushed the phone back towards him. He pushed it back toward
> me with a charger on top of it.

Unless everyone gets that stuff for free, I don't think it's realistic
to include it in our /real/ total cost of ownership calculations.

As we agreed earlier, it's unrealistic to expect anyone to get free stuff
if we're trying to make any believable case for overall ownership costs.

As for the SIM card fee that others made such a big deal about, Zonya at
the Naples Florida T-Mobile store said there is an inescapable activation
or upgrade fee which is $35.

If you are getting a new phone for the first time with T-mobile, they call
it the $35 activation fee. On the other hand, if you're just upgrading from
an old phone to a new phone, that $35 fee changes names to an upgrade fee.

We can't be assuming people are going to argue with T-mobile policy to get
that activation/upgrade fee waived, so we have to add it to both the iPhone
and to the Android phone if we're going to be realistic and believable.

My suggestion is we calculate total ownership costs assuming that people
pay what the store sells the stuff at. That is, we can't assume the
accessories are for free unless everyone gets them for free.

Otherwise, it's not a believable cost of ownership calculation.
It's like assuming everyone wins the lottery if they simply buy a ticket.

It's a sham claim to assume any of the accessories that didn't come in the
box will be given to everyone for free if that's not the store policy.

Did you get a chance to look at the Android/iPhone numbers yet?

They're remarkably similar, which is surprising to me, but maybe not to
you, where I haven't put them side by side yet, but I will get to that.

Let me know first, before I do that, if you object to how we ran this
honest experiment, and to the numbers I obtained from Christian (iPhone)
and Zonya (Android) where you made realistic believable choices and I
called that T-mobile store to get their real prices for those choices.

In article <tpvdbo$1k5i$1@gioia.aioe.org>, badgolferman
<REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:

> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was usb-c I
> asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to be purchased
> separately.

your old chargers and cables work just fine.

> I pushed the phone back towards him. He pushed it back toward
> me with a charger on top of it.

even better.

On 1/14/2023 4:33 PM, JAB wrote:

<snip>

> If you are getting a new phone for the first time with T-mobile, they call
> it the $35 activation fee. On the other hand, if you're just upgrading from
> an old phone to a new phone, that $35 fee changes names to an upgrade fee.

If you purchase an unlocked phone from the phone manufacturer, with no
SIM card, then you are not charged the carrier’s upgrade fee. But Apple
charges an extra $30 for an iPhone with "Connect to any carrier later"
so that doesn't help much, and you'd lose the carrier subsidies that you
get when you finance the device.

Samsung doesn't charge extra for an unlocked phone versus one tied to a
carrier, though they give you an extra $50 credit on models that are
tied to a carrier.

In article <tpvpcu$28ccj$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> But Apple
> charges an extra $30 for an iPhone with "Connect to any carrier later"

not anymore, they don't.

nospam wrote:

> your old chargers and cables work just fine.

Hi nospam,

Your low IQ is showing up again with your utterly absurd Apple defenses.

Seriously?
Old tires?
Old substandard tires?

On his brand new expensive bimmer?
That's absurd.

You're so desperate to defend Apple's cheap move that you're suggesting
re-using substandard old tires on a very expensive new bimmer, nospam?

Your IQ is so low you can't comprehend how desperate you really are.

You can't come up with a defense of Apple's cheap actions other than to
tell badgolferman to put old substandard tires on his new expensive BMW?

Why can't you admit Apple lied about them cheap'ing out on badgolferman?
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to show nospam's excuse is that of an utter moron.

nospam wrote:

>> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was
>>usb-c I asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to
>>be purchased separately.
>
>your old chargers and cables work just fine.

Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
$30 power supply? Just because my old cables will still work the fact
that they put a different cable in the box indicates to me I should be
using the new one. Most people wouldn't notice their new phone's cable
being different until they pulled it out to use it when they got home.
It's deceitful and designed to extract more money from the consumer
later. You know this but will defend Apple no matter what they do.

On 1/15/2023 7:16 AM, badgolferman wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>>> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was
>>> usb-c I asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to
>>> be purchased separately.
>>
>> your old chargers and cables work just fine.
>
> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
> $30 power supply?

Oh no, don't suggest to Apple that they stop including a cable.

Actually an extra USB-C to Lightning cable is useful since you probably
have other USB-C sockets around. Most laptops have a USB-C port that can
be used to charge a phone (or transfer data) though at a lower charge rate.

For those that keep their old phone, rather than selling it or trading
it in, it's good to have a cable with it.

What is annoying is the "greenwashing" that they used to try to justify
not including a charger, especially at the time they were enabling
fast-charging on new phones but not including a fast charger (other than
on the iPhone 11 Pro which included an 18W fast charger). Ditto for no
longer including earpods. Both decontenting had zero to do with e-waste,
they were solely to increase accessory sales of chargers and AirPods.

But by now, probably most users have purchased a fast USB-C PD charger
and are resigned to the fact that they had to spend extra for something
that should have been included. OTOH, back in the olden days, a lot of
battery powered consumer electronics did not come with an "AC adapter,"
it cost extra. But those devices had non-rechargeable, user replaceable
batteries.

On 2023-01-15 10:16, badgolferman wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>>> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was
>>> usb-c I asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to
>>> be purchased separately.
>>
>> your old chargers and cables work just fine.
>
> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
> $30 power supply?

Because you likely have one (or several) around the house/office in any
case. So Apple are reducing e-waste. And presumably the cost to the
consumer.

And if not, then the cost of one is pretty cheap. And you don't have to
buy Apple branded wall warts. There are plenty in the checkout aisle of
the supermarket, at Costco, Amazon, all sorts of 3rd party charging
stations, and so on that are often half the price of the Apple wall wart.

This is really the mother of non issues.

(Oh, and pro-tip, if you're having lightning v. USB-C issues in your
collection of devices/cables/wall warts there are plenty of tiny
adaptors available to mate one sort to the other. So cheap they usually
come in 4-packs).

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>>> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was
>>> usb-c I asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to
>>> be purchased separately.
>>
>> your old chargers and cables work just fine.
>
> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
> $30 power supply? Just because my old cables will still work the fact
> that they put a different cable in the box indicates to me I should be
> using the new one. Most people wouldn't notice their new phone's cable
> being different until they pulled it out to use it when they got home.
> It's deceitful and designed to extract more money from the consumer
> later. You know this but will defend Apple no matter what they do.

Agreed. I've had this argument with nospam several times. Apple made a
mistake here. They should either have made the transition to USB-C wall
warts earlier or have a USB-A + C compatible charging cable.

In article <xn0nwvjtg5v77x00e@reader443.eternal-september.org>,
badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was
> >>usb-c I asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to
> >>be purchased separately.
> >
> >your old chargers and cables work just fine.
>
> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
> $30 power supply?

use the cable you used with the iphone 11 you previously had.

trade-ins only want the phone. you get to keep the cables, chargers and
any other accessories you might have bought.

> Just because my old cables will still work the fact
> that they put a different cable in the box indicates to me I should be
> using the new one.

nope. the usb-c cable is part of a transition.

the old cables still work.

> Most people wouldn't notice their new phone's cable
> being different until they pulled it out to use it when they got home.

most people would use their existing cables and chargers and likely
already have a usb-c charger anyway, from another device.

> It's deceitful and designed to extract more money from the consumer
> later.

nope. it's nothing more than part of a transition to usb-c.

transitions are always going to have pain points.

right now, most users want usb-c cables, not the older usb-a cables. in
other words, including a usb-a cable would annoy *more* people.

> You know this but will defend Apple no matter what they do.

also wrong. google, samsung and many phone makers do the same thing, as
well as numerous other consumer devices.

the world is moving to usb-c, and in the process, there will be
situations such as this for some people.

badgolferman wrote:

>>your old chargers and cables work just fine.
>
> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
> $30 power supply? Just because my old cables will still work the fact
> that they put a different cable in the box indicates to me I should be
> using the new one. Most people wouldn't notice their new phone's cable
> being different until they pulled it out to use it when they got home.
> It's deceitful and designed to extract more money from the consumer
> later. You know this but will defend Apple no matter what they do.

Hi badgolferman,

I doubt nospam has anywhere near the IQ required to answer these questions,
where nobody knows exactly why except Apple... however...

However...

Apple has a looooong sordid history of inexorably removing functionality
from the iPhone, bit by bit, so that the cable is perhaps what's next.

While that answers why Apple removed the charger, to answer your question
as to why Apple changed the lug nuts, it's really the same strategy.

It's clear that Apple removed the charger to force Apple customers to buy
back that functionality, many of whom would buy the Apple-branded charger.

And it's clear that the cable is designed by Apple to make people use that
new cable with a new charger that has the same lug nut arrangement.

Obviously it's an analogy but that's what Apple's strategy seems to be.
a. Remove the charger to make you buy a new one
b. Make the cord different from all the chargers you already have

It only makes sense when you consider what Apple's strategy is.

BTW, you don't have to agree with my assessment of WHY Apple did it.
But I would expect you to at least _understand_ what my claim is.

Do you understand my assessment of _why_ Apple did what Apple did?
(I know the iKooks don't own the mental acuity to understand anything.)