On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 00:44:32 -0800, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Removing the charger was done solely to reduce costs and increase
> revenue. The margins on accessories are enormous. Samsung followed suit,
> and actually charges more for their USB-C PD fast charger than Apple.

What a load of crap.

The Samsung charger at the badgolferman selected Florida store was $20.
The Apple charger at that same badgolferman selected carrier store was $20.

> It
> was very annoying initially, but less so now that most people are on at
> least their second iPhone or Android phone that benefits from a fast
> charger.

What a load of crap.

You first said how long phones last nowadays and now you say they don't.
Plenty of people are still on phones that don't charge at PD/QC standards.

> Fortunately, accessory manufacturers responded to the decontenting of
> the charger and it's now easy to buy USB-C PD charger for much less than
> what the phone manufacturers charge.

Most people buy OEM branded chargers as they don't feel safe otherwise.

If I bought an OEM charger TODAY that meets the highest PD/QC standards for
the two phones that badgolferman selected for the realistic (not ficticious
sham) cost comparison today, how much would it cost me right now, today?

You can pick an Amazon link if you want.

Post an Amazon link to the Apple & Samsung chargers that fit the highest
QC/PD charging spec supported for the two phones badgolferman chose.

I will include your research into our calculations since some people do not
buy everything at the store so those people just might buy it off Amazon.

> Sales associates at carriers and
> resellers will often throw in a charger. Large etailers will often
> bundle in a charger and a case.

What a load of crap.

If your calculations depend on you assuming a load of crap, then that means
your calculations are a ficticious sham which you pre-planned to be a scam.

Please use realistic numbers in your total cost of ownership spreadsheet.

On 1/16/2023 7:24 AM, badgolferman wrote:

<snip>

> I agree with everything you said. sms may enjoy comparison shopping and
> even be good at it, but most people won’t go to the efforts he does. They
> want to get what they want and get it over with. Salespeople know this and
> are trained to “help” them get what they want right there in the store.

FWIW, all three of the new iPhones I bought were #3. No comparison
shopping at all, just the price the carrier was charging.

On the document I prepared I thought it a good idea to include:
1) The actual cost direct from the manufacturer for an unlocked device
2) The retail cost from a postpaid carrier for a locked device,
without monthly incentives.
3) The retail cost from a prepaid carrier (or postpaid MVNO) for a
locked device.

It is true that almost no one would ever choose #2 since it would be
foolish to not take the monthly bill credits and 0% financing if you
plan to stay with the carrier anyway—the phone subsidies are why the
monthly service is so expensive. And after that 36 months you really
want to take advantage of new phone promotion.

I added a comparison to the document for different options on the same
underlying carrier with comparable plans. For an iPhone 14 Pro Max on
Verizon postpaid versus "Visible by Verizon" prepaid on the closest
plans (50GB QCI8 Prioritized data, domestic roaming, mmWave 5G access,
hotspot, Canada and Mexico roaming). It’s about $36 per month less
expensive on Visible by Verizon (with the same trade-in). The device
payments on Verizon are much lower but the monthly plan cost is much higher.

The document "Realistic Total Cost of Ownership—iPhone Versus Android"
is at
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BUZuX-i1set7ktS4lbfGBmzdiCLAoOKfqp0ZSOrZlhk>

On 1/16/2023 10:31 AM, JAB wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 00:44:32 -0800, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Removing the charger was done solely to reduce costs and increase
>> revenue. The margins on accessories are enormous. Samsung followed suit,
>> and actually charges more for their USB-C PD fast charger than Apple.
>
> What a load of crap.
>
> The Samsung charger at the badgolferman selected Florida store was $20.
> The Apple charger at that same badgolferman selected carrier store was $20.

Apple charges $19 for their 20W charger, see
<https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MHJA3AM/A/20w-usb-c-power-adapter>

Amazon charges $18 for the Apple 20W charger, see
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08L5M9BTJ>

Samsung charges $19.99 for the Samsung 25W charger.
<https://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/mobile-accessories/phones/25w-travel-adapter-white-ep-ta800nwegus/>

Amazon charges $19.39 for the Samsung 25W charger
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08NR6FCVL/>.

And of course, as badgolferman's experience showed, simply asking
"where's the charger" led to the salesperson throwing one in (probably
not the Apple branded device). Similarly, many resellers include a
charger in a bundle even though the manufacturer no longer includes one.

In my document I use _realistic_ prices, I don't intentionally try to
find the most expensive retailer to buy something, paying more than the
MSRP.

SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 1/15/2023 11:18 AM, badgolferman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Who told Apple I likely have the *proper* charger? If they did then they
>> lied to Apple. I know no one who already bought that charger before they
>> bought the phone.
>
> That was true when you and I first bought an iPhone capable of fast
> charging via USB-C PD. But by now, both you, and most other people have
> acquired a fast charger and for subsequent purchases of iPhones you have
> the proper charger.

Nope.

Many people, myself included, don't want to reduce the lifespan of the
battery.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 12:16:38 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> On 1/16/2023 10:31 AM, JAB wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 00:44:32 -0800, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Removing the charger was done solely to reduce costs and increase
>>> revenue. The margins on accessories are enormous. Samsung followed suit,
>>> and actually charges more for their USB-C PD fast charger than Apple.
>>
>> What a load of crap.
>>
>> The Samsung charger at the badgolferman selected Florida store was $20.
>> The Apple charger at that same badgolferman selected carrier store was $20.
>
> Apple charges $19 for their 20W charger, see
> <https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MHJA3AM/A/20w-usb-c-power-adapter>
>
> Amazon charges $18 for the Apple 20W charger, see
> <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08L5M9BTJ>
>
> Samsung charges $19.99 for the Samsung 25W charger.
> <https://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/mobile-accessories/phones/25w-travel-adapter-white-ep-ta800nwegus/>
>
> Amazon charges $19.39 for the Samsung 25W charger
> <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08NR6FCVL/>.
>
> And of course, as badgolferman's experience showed, simply asking
> "where's the charger" led to the salesperson throwing one in (probably
> not the Apple branded device). Similarly, many resellers include a
> charger in a bundle even though the manufacturer no longer includes one.
>
> In my document I use _realistic_ prices, I don't intentionally try to
> find the most expensive retailer to buy something, paying more than the
> MSRP.

Those prices show what I said, and not what you said.

You said "Samsung... actually charges more"
I said bullshit.

You then showed Amazon prices of about the same price for both.
Which is what I found out by calling badgolferman's chosen carrier store.

Apple charger is about $20.
Samsung charger is about $20.

We're not even discussing that the Apple charger is almost certainly a
substandard charger in terms of supporting both the PD and QC standards.

And your additional bogus claim everyone gets chargers for free is no
different than claiming everyone who buys lottery tickets wins the lottery.

Especially if they groom the cashier like you suggested they do.

Some people are just lucky.
If your figures only work if someone wins the lottery, they're cooked.

Why don't you just put the badgolferman figures into your spreadsheet?
If you do not, then that tells everyone you have a pre-planned narrative.

We're done here because your spreadsheet is deceitful without the numbers.

On 1/16/2023 5:25 PM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

> Many people, myself included, don't want to reduce the lifespan of the
> battery.

Hopefully it's not "many people" because, fortunately, fast charging at
the levels you're looking at with an iPhone (18W to 27W) doesn't have
any effect on the life of the battery at all. The phone communicates
with the charger and sets the charge rate based on the charge level of
the battery, and the temperature, to avoid damaging the battery.

You can see this yourself if you have USB-C voltage/current/wattage
monitor, see <https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255800103196906.html>.

On an iPhone, if the battery is at 0% the charger begins at a low rate
until the iPhone automatically powers on and the charge controller can
communicate with the charger. Then the charge rate goes to 18W until the
battery is at about 80%, then the charge rate is reduced until the
battery reaches 100%.

This charging protocol is because a battery that is at a low level is
fine with higher-current charging but as the battery begins to reach
full capacity it's advantageous to reduce the charge rate. This is why
the last 20% or so takes longer than the first 80% or so.

There are some phones that use very high wattage charging that does
reduce battery life if you do it often, one Xiaomi Redmi phone charges
at 210 watts and goes from 0 to 100% in nine minutes.

If you really want to increase the lifespan of the battery, don't charge
it past 80%, but don't worry about 5W versus 12W versus 18W.

One of the reasons for the transition to USB-C is it because it supports
higher charge rates, up to 240W (48V@5A) The Lightning port was fine for
lower-capacity batteries and slow charging.

On 1/16/2023 5:55 PM, JAB wrote:

<snip>

> Those prices show what I said, and not what you said.
>
> You said "Samsung... actually charges more"
> I said bullshit.

That's why I included the links, so you could easily check the prices
yourself from Apple, Samsung, and Amazon. But I can't force you to use
the actual prices charged by the manufacturer. If you want to pay more,
at a store that charges more than MSRP that's certainly your choice. But
I'm not going to use unrealistic prices in my document; you can create
your own document "How to Pay More for Everything."

In article <tq4vpm$1ch7$1@gioia.aioe.org>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> > Many people, myself included, don't want to reduce the lifespan of the
> > battery.
>
> Hopefully it's not "many people" because, fortunately, fast charging at
> the levels you're looking at with an iPhone (18W to 27W) doesn't have
> any effect on the life of the battery at all.

more power = more heat and over time, it can make a difference.

for those who keep their phones longer than typical it may mean needing
a battery swap.

> The phone communicates
> with the charger and sets the charge rate based on the charge level of
> the battery, and the temperature, to avoid damaging the battery.

higher wattage = more heat. there's no getting around that.

> You can see this yourself if you have USB-C voltage/current/wattage

or a suitable app.

> One of the reasons for the transition to USB-C is it because it supports
> higher charge rates, up to 240W (48V@5A)

charging a phone battery at 240w is *not* a reason why phones
transitioned to usb-c.

> The Lightning port was fine for
> lower-capacity batteries and slow charging.

which is more than sufficient in normal everyday use.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 1/16/2023 5:25 PM, Chris wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Many people, myself included, don't want to reduce the lifespan of the
>> battery.
>
> Hopefully it's not "many people" because, fortunately, fast charging at
> the levels you're looking at with an iPhone (18W to 27W) doesn't have
> any effect on the life of the battery at all.

Clearly not true. Heat kills batteries and fast charging heats up
batteries.

> The phone communicates
> with the charger and sets the charge rate based on the charge level of
> the battery, and the temperature, to avoid damaging the battery.

Not avoid, reduce.

Fortunately, we have choices so I'm more than happy to simply charge my
phone overnight and ensure the longevity of my phone's battery.

On 1/16/2023 11:54 PM, Chris wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 1/16/2023 5:25 PM, Chris wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Many people, myself included, don't want to reduce the lifespan of the
>>> battery.
>>
>> Hopefully it's not "many people" because, fortunately, fast charging at
>> the levels you're looking at with an iPhone (18W to 27W) doesn't have
>> any effect on the life of the battery at all.
>
> Clearly not true. Heat kills batteries and fast charging heats up
> batteries.

You can learn why fast-charging does not damage phone batteries here:
<https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/does-fast-charging-affect-battery-life-6-phone-battery-questions-answered/>.
Scroll down to "Fast charging won't damage your battery." which
explains: "A battery's management system closely monitors the two charge
phases and drops the charging speed during the second phase to give the
battery time to absorb the charge and avoid issues, which is why it can
take 10 minutes to get those last few percentage points."

It's the same thing that was already explained to you. You can believe
the experts or not, it's up to you.

Myths die hard. There are still people doing 3000 mile oil changes in
the mistaken belief that that will extend the life of their engine and
there are still people slow-charging their phones in the mistaken belief
that that will extend the life of their phone battery. Neither are true.

On 1/17/2023 7:03 AM, sms wrote:

> Myths die hard... there are still people slow-charging their phones
> in the mistaken belief that that will extend the life of their phone
> battery [because of less heat].

Some years ago I got an aftermarket WIRELESS charger. I noticed that
it caused the phone to get quite warm when charging. So I replaced the
charger's power supply with a much smaller one and since then there has
been no NOTICEABLE heat when charging. It does take longer but as an
overnight charger it wasn't a problem for me.

I did it to avoid the heat and thus increase my battery's (and phone's)
longevity. Did I waste my time?

Further is it also now OK to leave my phone on the car dashboard here in
the desert sun...

In article <tq6dbj$1nsj$1@gioia.aioe.org>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> >>> Many people, myself included, don't want to reduce the lifespan of the
> >>> battery.
> >>
> >> Hopefully it's not "many people" because, fortunately, fast charging at
> >> the levels you're looking at with an iPhone (18W to 27W) doesn't have
> >> any effect on the life of the battery at all.
> >
> > Clearly not true. Heat kills batteries and fast charging heats up
> > batteries.
>
> You can learn why fast-charging does not damage phone batteries here:

> <https://www.cnet.com/tech/m

cnet is your authority?? seriously??

fast-charging causes more wear than slow charging. it's basic physics
and there's no getting around that, at least here in the real world.

it's also not the sole factor in battery health. there are many other
things that also have an effect.

>
> It's the same thing that was already explained to you. You can believe
> the experts or not, it's up to you.

anyone who claims something other than the laws of physics is not an
expert of any sort. more accurately, they have an agenda.

> Myths die hard. There are still people doing 3000 mile oil changes in
> the mistaken belief that that will extend the life of their engine and
> there are still people slow-charging their phones in the mistaken belief
> that that will extend the life of their phone battery. Neither are true.

actually, both are true. however, the question is whether it matters,
which will depend on how long someone keeps their vehicle or phone and
what type of use it has. for example, frequent start/stops, especially
when it's short enough that the engine doesn't reach operating temp, is
more wear than longer commutes.

On 1/17/2023 9:29 AM, AJL wrote:
> On 1/17/2023 7:03 AM, sms wrote:
>
>> Myths die hard... there are still people slow-charging their phones
>> in the mistaken belief that that will extend the life of their phone
>> battery [because of less heat].
>
> Some years ago I got an aftermarket WIRELESS charger. I noticed that
> it caused the phone to get quite warm when charging. So I replaced the
> charger's power supply with a much smaller one and since then there has
> been no NOTICEABLE heat when charging. It does take longer but as an
> overnight charger it wasn't a problem for me.

Yes, with a wireless charger there is heat generated by the inductive
coils which you can feel in the back of the phone. Sticking to the Qi
wireless charging wattage of 7.5W for the iPhone might make some sense.
MagSafe wireless charging on the newer iPhones is 15W.

In the olden days there was no battery management that charged the
battery at a higher wattage when it had a low charge level and then
reduced the wattage when the charge level was high. Back then it
probably did make some sense to use a lower wattage charger.

I suspect that the vast majority of phone users have absolutely no idea
of how adaptive smart phone charging works and how the phone
communicates with the charger, and there's no need for them to worry
about it. They're actually better off than those that think they
understand about fast charging but really don't.

If someone really wants to be careful they could by a 5V/100mA USB
charger and charge their phone even slower!

On 2023-01-17 12:29, AJL wrote:
> On 1/17/2023 7:03 AM, sms wrote:
>
>> Myths die hard... there are still people slow-charging their phones
>> in the mistaken belief that that will extend the life of their phone
>> battery [because of less heat].
>
> Some years ago I got an aftermarket WIRELESS charger. I noticed that
> it caused the phone to get quite warm when charging. So I replaced the

Yep - a lot of heat is generated in the wireless charger base and in the
phone's wireless charging coils just due to the inefficient coupling of
the charger to the phone. This comes out as heat (and of course more
emissions if your electricity comes from fossil fuel).

> charger's power supply with a much smaller one and since then there has
> been no NOTICEABLE heat when charging. It does take longer but as an
> overnight charger it wasn't a problem for me.

Not a noticeable problem. The smaller p/s just restricts the charge
rate making the hear inefficiency less perceptible. But (shocker) it's
still just as inefficient - just takes longer.

> I did it to avoid the heat and thus increase my battery's (and phone's)
> longevity. Did I waste my time?

No, but pro tip: use the wire and get nominal rates of charge with less
heat loss.

>
> Further is it also now OK to leave my phone on the car dashboard here in
> the desert sun...

Of course - you can double or quadruple the life of your phone by doing
so. /s

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

In article <tq6jkr$13k8$1@gioia.aioe.org>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> In the olden days there was no battery management that charged the
> battery at a higher wattage when it had a low charge level and then
> reduced the wattage when the charge level was high. Back then it
> probably did make some sense to use a lower wattage charger.

very olden days, before lithium ion batteries, which *require* battery
management.

On 1/17/2023 8:50 AM, sms wrote:

> I suspect that the vast majority of phone users have absolutely no
> idea of how adaptive smart phone charging works and how the phone
> communicates with the charger

Sure I do. When the wireless charger's light goes off the phone is
charged...

> If someone really wants to be careful they could by a 5V/100mA USB
> charger and charge their phone even slower!

To my phone's distress it hasn't had anything poking its port in years...

On 1/17/2023 8:53 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-01-17 12:29, AJL wrote:

>> Some years ago I got an aftermarket WIRELESS charger. I noticed
>> that it caused the phone to get quite warm when charging. So I
>> replaced the

> Yep - a lot of heat is generated in the wireless charger base and in
> the phone's wireless charging coils just due to the inefficient
> coupling of the charger to the phone. This comes out as heat (and
> of course more emissions if your electricity comes from fossil
> fuel).

Not me. I'm just 30 miles from a nuclear plant. Hope that's not a bad
thing some day... 8-O

>> charger's power supply with a much smaller one and since then
>> there has been no NOTICEABLE heat when charging. It does take
>> longer but as an overnight charger it wasn't a problem for me.

> The smaller p/s just restricts the charge rate making the hear
> inefficiency less perceptible. But (shocker) it's still just as
> inefficient - just takes longer.

Don't care about inefficiency or charge time...just excess battery heat.

> No, but pro tip: use the wire and get nominal rates of charge with
> less heat loss.

But the wire is such a PITA in many ways. Never going back...

On 1/16/23 7:05 PM, sms wrote:
> If you really want to increase the lifespan of the battery, don't charge
> it past 80%

Where is the setting on the phone to set that 80% battery charge autolimit?
--
Jerry Friedman

On 2023-01-17 13:32, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 1/16/23 7:05 PM, sms wrote:
>> If you really want to increase the lifespan of the battery, don't
>> charge it past 80%
>
> Where is the setting on the phone to set that 80% battery charge autolimit?

There is none, alas

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

In article <l9CxL.61568$5S78.35950@fx48.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> > Where is the setting on the phone to set that 80% battery charge autolimit?
>
> There is none, alas

there is.

On 2023-01-17 14:08, nospam wrote:
> In article <l9CxL.61568$5S78.35950@fx48.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>> Where is the setting on the phone to set that 80% battery charge autolimit?
>>
>> There is none, alas
>
> there is.

Do tell. I want my iPhone to stop charging at 80%. Not a joule more.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

On 17/01/2023 20:8, nospam wrote:

> In article <l9CxL.61568$5S78.35950@fx48.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>> Where is the setting on the phone to set that 80% battery charge autolimit?
>>
>> There is none, alas
>
> there is.

Don't know about others but Samsungs have an 85% autocharge limit setting.
https://gadgetguideonline.com/s22/protect-battery-limit-maximum-charge-85/

In article <YxCxL.729623$GNG9.362425@fx18.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> >>> Where is the setting on the phone to set that 80% battery charge
> >>> autolimit?
> >>
> >> There is none, alas
> >
> > there is.
>
> Do tell. I want my iPhone to stop charging at 80%. Not a joule more.

in shortcuts, create a new personal automation, choose battery level,
set desired charge level & action to occur.

the action can be an alarm, text message or pretty much whatever else
you want, although to start/stop charging, you will need a homekit
compatible mains power plug.

grinch hat am 17.01.2023 um 19:28 geschrieben:grinch hat am 17.01.2023 um
19:28 geschrieben:
> Don't know about others but Samsungs have an 85% autocharge limit setting.
> https://gadgetguideonline.com/s22/protect-battery-limit-maximum-charge-85/

That will show the charge goes from whatever to 85% on the phone, which
effectively reduces your batter capacity to 85% of the original size.

A more honest approach to that problem is by Knox but only for tablets.
https://docs.samsungknox.com/admin/knox-platform-for-enterprise/kbas/kba-77-how-to-limit-battery-charging-on-samsung-knox-device.htm
That will show the 85% as 100% which is being more honest about capacity.

But what you really want is to set any desired custom autocharge limit.
https://krispitech.com/battery-charge-limit/
https://www.getdroidtips.com/custom-battery-charge-limit-android/
https://android.gadgethacks.com/how-to/set-charging-limit-your-android-device-avoid-excess-battery-wear-0176280/

Many people set the automatics to an 80%/30% rule, setting the auto
recharge to prevent deep cycling at a 20% or 30% bottom limit also.

You can set it up any way you like on Android as it's all up to you.

Dunno if iOS can set a custom charge limit to preserve battery life.
I'd guess iOS prolly can set an upper/lower limit as both are important.

On 2023-01-17, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> there are still people slow-charging their phones in the mistaken
> belief that that will extend the life of their phone battery. Neither
> are true.

There are plenty of others who charge their devices overnight while they
sleep, where slow charging is perfectly fine.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR