sms used his or her keyboard to write :

> What is annoying is the "greenwashing" that they used to try to justify
> not including a charger

It's more like Apple "lying" than Apple "greenwashing" - don't you think?

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
.. OTOH, back in the olden days, a lot of
> battery powered consumer electronics did not come with an "AC adapter,"
> it cost extra. But those devices had non-rechargeable, user replaceable
> batteries.

Yeah and those chargers all had different sockets so aSony one wouldn't
work with Panasonic devices or even other Sony devices of a different
generation. They were also ridiculously expensive.

This was really bad with mobile phone. Essentially every new generation of
phones come with new chargers incompatible with previous models. Hence why
the EU stepped in around 2014 and we got the dichotomy of microUSB and
lightning.

nospam wrote:

> trade-ins only want the phone. you get to keep the cables, chargers and
> any other accessories you might have bought.

It's no longer shocking nospam is unaware Apple has _never_ supplied the
correct charger for the iPhone 14 in _any_ iPhone or iPad ever sold.

These iKooks know absolutely nothing of what Apple actually does.
They only know what Apple _says_ it does (which is typically a lie).

> most people would use their existing cables and chargers and likely
> already have a usb-c charger anyway, from another device.

Yet again, it's no longer shocking that nospam is _unaware_ that Apple has
_never_ supplied the correct charger in _any_ iPhone/iPad ever sold!

Every excuse for Apple's behavior nospam makes shows he only knows what
Apple said - but nospam is _clueless_ about what Apple actually did.

>> You know this but will defend Apple no matter what they do.
>
> also wrong. google, samsung and many phone makers do the same thing, as
> well as numerous other consumer devices.

*Why always use _Apple:BAD_ excuses for Apple's sordid behavior?*

First you tell us Apple is no better than Google (and usually worse).
Then you tell us that Apple is no better than Samsung (and usually worse).

Now you claim Apple is worse then them all because Apple was first at it?

Have you such a low IQ you can't come up with a better excuse for Apple
than Apple is as bad (and even worse in this case) than everyone else?
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which is to point out huge logical fallacies in nospam's Apple:Bad excuse.

In article <tq1abc$2d39s$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >
> > Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
> > $30 power supply? Just because my old cables will still work the fact
> > that they put a different cable in the box indicates to me I should be
> > using the new one. Most people wouldn't notice their new phone's cable
> > being different until they pulled it out to use it when they got home.
> > It's deceitful and designed to extract more money from the consumer
> > later. You know this but will defend Apple no matter what they do.
>
> Agreed. I've had this argument with nospam several times. Apple made a
> mistake here. They should either have made the transition to USB-C wall
> warts earlier

that was not a realistic option, given the usage of usb-c versus usb-a.

just because *you* want something doesn't mean the rest of the user
base does.

transitions are not as simple as you might want to think.

no matter when they decided to make the switch, there will be some
people who are inconvenienced. the goal is to minimize that as much as
possible.

apple (as well as other companies) have all sorts of user data to show
how prevalent usb-c and usb-a (or other standards) are.

> or have a USB-A + C compatible charging cable.

a dual-headed cable would be more expensive and less reliable, plus it
would be unnecessary for most people.

they did do something similar with the 3rd gen ipod, the first ipod
with the 30 pin dock connector, which supported both usb and firewire.

unfortunately, usb couldn't source sufficient power to charge the ipod,
so it had to *also* be connected to firewire for charging. windows pc
users connected via usb to sync content and used the included power
adapter to charge, while mac users connected it directly to their mac
via firewire to do both ignoring the usb part, which was not connected
to anything. windows pcs with firewire was not common, but those who
had that option could charge/sync with just firewire as did mac users,
which would also be faster than syncing via usb.

<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/r4EAAOSw2E9i6tq6/s-l1600.jpg>

this was *not* a good solution.

the 4th gen ipod did charge via usb, although at a slower rate than
firewire, eliminating the need for that cable.

the 4th gen ipod is also when sales started to hockey-stick up.

i think it was the 5th gen ipod that stopped syncing via firewire,
although it could still charge.

nospam wrote:

> just because *you* want something doesn't mean the rest of the user
> base does.

The only thing that really matters is Apple's strategy is no different than
yours when you want to catch mice in a glue trap placed along baseboards.

Apple removed your charger options and designed the cable along the
baseboards so as to route you directly onto the glue trap Apple set.

Glue trap is the simplest way to explain Apple's charger/cable strategy.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to explain in simple terms Apple's cable strategy.

On Fri, 13 Jan 2023 18:26:39 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman
<REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe it would be helpful if you provided those numbers for people to
> compare.

This is a realistic (not ficticious) cost of ownership calculation.
iPhone 11 -> iPhone 14 = $1,062 (or $928.97 with tradein)
Galaxy S20 -> Galaxy S22 = $997.50 (or $864.50 with tradein)

In both testcases above, you walk into the T-Mobile store located at
1836 Tamiami Trail N L0011, Naples, FL 34102, (239) 213-1229 with
the goal of buying a phone using OEM accessories, if available.

If OEM accessories are not available, then the numbers below reflect the
average of available accessories as the goal is to walk out fully equipped.

You walk into the T-Mobile Naples FL store with a 3-year old iPhone 11.
You walk out with an iPhone 14 base model with all common accessories.
$800 Apple iPhone 14 (base model, 128GB)
$35 inescapable activation/upgrade fee
$50 Apple case
$50 screen (averaged Zagg with the much worse T-Mobile brand Goto)
$0 for the first 3-foot cable because it comes in the box
$12.50 for the other 4-foot cable (averaged the Belkin & T-Mobile Goto)
$25 for the 6-foot Belkin cable (no other choice was available)
$20 for the Apple brick
7% sales tax (even on the activatio/upgrade fee for an unknown reason)
$133 statistically valid trade-in (because only 1/3rd actually get it)

Total realistic cost without tradein: $1,062
Total realistic cost with tradein: $928.97

You walk into the T-Mobile Naples FL store with a 3-year old Galaxy S20.
You walk out with a Galaxy S22 base model with all common accessories.
$800 Samsung Galaxy S22 (base model, 128GB)
$35 inescapable activation/upgrade fee
$52.50 case (I averaged the otterbox case with the t-mobile case)
$50 screen (I averaged the Zagg with the T-Mobile Goto screen)
$0 for the first 3-foot cable because it comes in the box
$15 for the 4-foot cable (they only had the T-mobile branded cable)
$25 for the 6-foot Belkin cable
$20 for the Samsung brick (I presume it is the correct spec for the phone)
7% sales tax (even on the activatio/upgrade fee for an unknown reason)
$133 statistically valid trade-in (because only 1/3rd actually get it)

Total realistic cost without tradein: $997.50
Total realistic cost with tradein: $864.50

Given these are the realistic (not ficticious) total costs which are
believable (not a sham), what do you make of the results found out?

Is one brand appreciably more cost intensive than the other?

Or is the total cost of ownership (for these two phones, at that location,
as defined by badgolferman, with and without tradein) about the same?

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2023-01-15 10:16, badgolferman wrote:
>> nospam wrote:
>>
>>>> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was
>>>> usb-c I asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to
>>>> be purchased separately.
>>>
>>> your old chargers and cables work just fine.
>>
>> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
>> $30 power supply?
>
> Because you likely have one (or several) around the house/office in any
> case. So Apple are reducing e-waste. And presumably the cost to the
> consumer.
>
> And if not, then the cost of one is pretty cheap. And you don't have to
> buy Apple branded wall warts. There are plenty in the checkout aisle of
> the supermarket, at Costco, Amazon, all sorts of 3rd party charging
> stations, and so on that are often half the price of the Apple wall wart.
>
> This is really the mother of non issues.
>
> (Oh, and pro-tip, if you're having lightning v. USB-C issues in your
> collection of devices/cables/wall warts there are plenty of tiny
> adaptors available to mate one sort to the other. So cheap they usually
> come in 4-packs).
>

So I still have to buy something else…

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <xn0nwvjtg5v77x00e@reader443.eternal-september.org>,
> badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> When I was buying the iPhone 12 and saw one side of the cable was
>>>> usb-c I asked him where the charger was. He told me they have to
>>>> be purchased separately.
>>>
>>> your old chargers and cables work just fine.
>>
>> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
>> $30 power supply?
>
> use the cable you used with the iphone 11 you previously had.
>
> trade-ins only want the phone. you get to keep the cables, chargers and
> any other accessories you might have bought.
>
>> Just because my old cables will still work the fact
>> that they put a different cable in the box indicates to me I should be
>> using the new one.
>
> nope. the usb-c cable is part of a transition.
>
> the old cables still work.
>
>> Most people wouldn't notice their new phone's cable
>> being different until they pulled it out to use it when they got home.
>
> most people would use their existing cables and chargers and likely
> already have a usb-c charger anyway, from another device.
>
>> It's deceitful and designed to extract more money from the consumer
>> later.
>
> nope. it's nothing more than part of a transition to usb-c.
>
> transitions are always going to have pain points.
>
> right now, most users want usb-c cables, not the older usb-a cables. in
> other words, including a usb-a cable would annoy *more* people.
>
>> You know this but will defend Apple no matter what they do.
>
> also wrong. google, samsung and many phone makers do the same thing, as
> well as numerous other consumer devices.
>
> the world is moving to usb-c, and in the process, there will be
> situations such as this for some people.
>

Who told Apple I likely have the *proper* charger? If they did then they
lied to Apple. I know no one who already bought that charger before they
bought the phone.

Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
> badgolferman wrote:
>
>>> your old chargers and cables work just fine.
>>
>> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
>> $30 power supply? Just because my old cables will still work the fact
>> that they put a different cable in the box indicates to me I should be
>> using the new one. Most people wouldn't notice their new phone's cable
>> being different until they pulled it out to use it when they got home.
>> It's deceitful and designed to extract more money from the consumer
>> later. You know this but will defend Apple no matter what they do.
>
> Hi badgolferman,
>
> I doubt nospam has anywhere near the IQ required to answer these questions,
> where nobody knows exactly why except Apple... however...
>
> However...
>
> Apple has a looooong sordid history of inexorably removing functionality
> from the iPhone, bit by bit, so that the cable is perhaps what's next.
>
> While that answers why Apple removed the charger, to answer your question
> as to why Apple changed the lug nuts, it's really the same strategy.
>
> It's clear that Apple removed the charger to force Apple customers to buy
> back that functionality, many of whom would buy the Apple-branded charger.
>
> And it's clear that the cable is designed by Apple to make people use that
> new cable with a new charger that has the same lug nut arrangement.
>
> Obviously it's an analogy but that's what Apple's strategy seems to be.
> a. Remove the charger to make you buy a new one
> b. Make the cord different from all the chargers you already have
>
> It only makes sense when you consider what Apple's strategy is.
>
> BTW, you don't have to agree with my assessment of WHY Apple did it.
> But I would expect you to at least _understand_ what my claim is.
>
> Do you understand my assessment of _why_ Apple did what Apple did?
> (I know the iKooks don't own the mental acuity to understand anything.)
>

It’s all about nickel and diming you to death.

JAB <here@is.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2023 18:26:39 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman
> <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe it would be helpful if you provided those numbers for people to
>> compare.
>
> This is a realistic (not ficticious) cost of ownership calculation.
> iPhone 11 -> iPhone 14 = $1,062 (or $928.97 with tradein)
> Galaxy S20 -> Galaxy S22 = $997.50 (or $864.50 with tradein)
>
> In both testcases above, you walk into the T-Mobile store located at
> 1836 Tamiami Trail N L0011, Naples, FL 34102, (239) 213-1229 with
> the goal of buying a phone using OEM accessories, if available.
>
> If OEM accessories are not available, then the numbers below reflect the
> average of available accessories as the goal is to walk out fully equipped.
>
> You walk into the T-Mobile Naples FL store with a 3-year old iPhone 11.
> You walk out with an iPhone 14 base model with all common accessories.
> $800 Apple iPhone 14 (base model, 128GB)
> $35 inescapable activation/upgrade fee
> $50 Apple case
> $50 screen (averaged Zagg with the much worse T-Mobile brand Goto)
> $0 for the first 3-foot cable because it comes in the box
> $12.50 for the other 4-foot cable (averaged the Belkin & T-Mobile Goto)
> $25 for the 6-foot Belkin cable (no other choice was available)
> $20 for the Apple brick
> 7% sales tax (even on the activatio/upgrade fee for an unknown reason)
> $133 statistically valid trade-in (because only 1/3rd actually get it)
>
> Total realistic cost without tradein: $1,062
> Total realistic cost with tradein: $928.97
>
> You walk into the T-Mobile Naples FL store with a 3-year old Galaxy S20.
> You walk out with a Galaxy S22 base model with all common accessories.
> $800 Samsung Galaxy S22 (base model, 128GB)
> $35 inescapable activation/upgrade fee
> $52.50 case (I averaged the otterbox case with the t-mobile case)
> $50 screen (I averaged the Zagg with the T-Mobile Goto screen)
> $0 for the first 3-foot cable because it comes in the box
> $15 for the 4-foot cable (they only had the T-mobile branded cable)
> $25 for the 6-foot Belkin cable
> $20 for the Samsung brick (I presume it is the correct spec for the phone)
> 7% sales tax (even on the activatio/upgrade fee for an unknown reason)
> $133 statistically valid trade-in (because only 1/3rd actually get it)
>
> Total realistic cost without tradein: $997.50
> Total realistic cost with tradein: $864.50
>
> Given these are the realistic (not ficticious) total costs which are
> believable (not a sham), what do you make of the results found out?
>
> Is one brand appreciably more cost intensive than the other?
>
> Or is the total cost of ownership (for these two phones, at that location,
> as defined by badgolferman, with and without tradein) about the same?
>

They seem similar, although the Samsung is a bit cheaper. But really it
comes down to which operating system you are used to. The older one gets,
the less they want to learn new things.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2023 19:18:19 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman
<REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:

> They seem similar, although the Samsung is a bit cheaper. But really it
> comes down to which operating system you are used to. The older one gets,
> the less they want to learn new things.

Thank you for taking a look at the numbers as they must be believable.
It's great the store you chose was so helpful in providing the numbers!

At that price range I would agree with you that they're almost the same.
That iPhone was 601.2% cheaper than the Android phone.

We could say that having the iPhone was equivalent to an extra sales tax.

At a different price range, things could (and would) be much different.
But if we limit ourselves to just the highest end, they're about the same.

The only difference was the iPhone cost about the tax more than Android.

I agree with you that people who buy into one ecosystem aren't changing
often back & forth, although people buying their first phone might be doing
so more often than older folk who are more set on their ways & ecosystems.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2023 14:17:35 -0600, JAB <here@is.invalid> wrote:

> At that price range I would agree with you that they're almost the same.
> That iPhone was 601.2% cheaper than the Android phone.
> We could say that having the iPhone was equivalent to an extra sales tax.

I made a minor boo boo.

Somehow when I pasted the numbers out of my calculator app, it got messed.
The iPhone was only about 6-1/2% more expensive than the Android phone.

Given the sales tax in Florida is between 6% & 7%, we could say that
iPhone cost about as much more than that Android as an additional tax.

There are many more ranges of phone to choose from on the Android side
which will make those numbers quite different but not at this high end.

For these phones in a real-world carrier store, these numbers are solid.
Do you think the guy who is compiling the spreadsheet will add this data?

badgolferman wrote:

> It's all about nickel and diming you to death.

Yup. Steve calculated the charger costs Apple almost nothing, particularly
for a thousand dollar phone, and yet Apple lied as to why they removed it.

By removing the charger, they laid out the glue trap because now you have
to figure out, on your own, how to get the proper capacity PD charger.

Then, to lead the mice along the baseboards toward that glue trap, Apple
made sure that the new Apple-branded cable they do supply with the phone,
fits NONE of your existing chargers.

The glue trap is set.
And it's set along a narrow baseboard walkway that you have to walk.

It's no different than if BMW sold a car without tires and with lug bolt
distances which are not the same as the old BMW you traded in.

They'd have desigend teh same glue trap that Apple designed by two things
1. They tell you to use the old tires from your old traded in BMW, and,
2. They'd make sure the old wheels wouldn't fit by changing lug patterns.

That's EXACTLY what Apple did.

Most iKooks don't have the intelligence to even comprehend that strategy.
And I do not expect everyone to _believe_ that strategy.

But I do expect the people who are not iKooks to _understand_ that strategy
(because that's exactly what Apple is doing).

Apple isn't stupid.
They're not one of the most profitable companies in the world for nothing.

Apple will inexorably remove functionality so you're forced to buy it back.
--
Note: Most BMWs I've worked on don't have lug nuts; they use lug bolts.

On 2023-01-15 14:18, badgolferman wrote:

> So I still have to buy something else…

You don't have to buy anything at all. Stay in your closed minded rut
and pull the warm fuzzy blanket of ignorance over yourself and be as
happy as you can manage.

Seems to be your lane.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

nospam wrote:

>> But Apple
>> charges an extra $30 for an iPhone with "Connect to any carrier later"
>
> not anymore, they don't.

Why is it, nospam, that you know so much about Apple when it's not Apple
screwing the (admittedly loyal) customer, but when it comes to myriad
things that Apple does to screw the customers, you say it didn't happen?

Over and over and over and over again, you desperately scream out what
clearly happened, and what clearly Apple did, didn't happen.

And Apple didn't do it.
And yet, they did.

How can you know so much when Apple is not screwing the customers, and yet,
you deny every single fact (that even Apple doesn't deny) only when it
comes to you denying Apple screwed its (admittedly loyal) customer base?

You have selective amnesia perhaps?

Or is your IQ so low you can't think of any intelligent adult way to
explain Apple's behavior other than to deny Apple did what it does?

On 1/15/2023 8:45 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
> sms used his or her keyboard to write :
>
>> What is annoying is the "greenwashing" that they used to try to
>> justify not including a charger
>
> It's more like Apple "lying" than Apple "greenwashing" - don't you think?

True. Plus it allowed competitors to use the same rationale for
decontenting their products.

On 1/15/2023 11:18 AM, badgolferman wrote:
> Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>> badgolferman wrote:
>>
>>>> your old chargers and cables work just fine.
>>>
>>> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
>>> $30 power supply? Just because my old cables will still work the fact
>>> that they put a different cable in the box indicates to me I should be
>>> using the new one. Most people wouldn't notice their new phone's cable
>>> being different until they pulled it out to use it when they got home.
>>> It's deceitful and designed to extract more money from the consumer
>>> later. You know this but will defend Apple no matter what they do.
>>
>> Hi badgolferman,
>>
>> I doubt nospam has anywhere near the IQ required to answer these questions,
>> where nobody knows exactly why except Apple... however...
>>
>> However...
>>
>> Apple has a looooong sordid history of inexorably removing functionality
>> from the iPhone, bit by bit, so that the cable is perhaps what's next.
>>
>> While that answers why Apple removed the charger, to answer your question
>> as to why Apple changed the lug nuts, it's really the same strategy.
>>
>> It's clear that Apple removed the charger to force Apple customers to buy
>> back that functionality, many of whom would buy the Apple-branded charger.
>>
>> And it's clear that the cable is designed by Apple to make people use that
>> new cable with a new charger that has the same lug nut arrangement.
>>
>> Obviously it's an analogy but that's what Apple's strategy seems to be.
>> a. Remove the charger to make you buy a new one
>> b. Make the cord different from all the chargers you already have
>>
>> It only makes sense when you consider what Apple's strategy is.
>>
>> BTW, you don't have to agree with my assessment of WHY Apple did it.
>> But I would expect you to at least _understand_ what my claim is.
>>
>> Do you understand my assessment of _why_ Apple did what Apple did?
>> (I know the iKooks don't own the mental acuity to understand anything.)
>>
>
> It’s all about nickel and diming you to death.

The Lightning connector was much better than the connectors used by
other phones at the time, mainly Micro-USB for Android and the 30 pin
connector for iPhone.

So "making the cord different" is not really accurate. Sure, everyone
agrees that it would be wonderful if Apple moved entirely to USB-C, as
they've done with most iPads, and that was coming (eventually) even
before the EU dragged them kicking and screaming to USB-C.

Removing the charger was done solely to reduce costs and increase
revenue. The margins on accessories are enormous. Samsung followed suit,
and actually charges more for their USB-C PD fast charger than Apple. It
was very annoying initially, but less so now that most people are on at
least their second iPhone or Android phone that benefits from a fast
charger.

Fortunately, accessory manufacturers responded to the decontenting of
the charger and it's now easy to buy USB-C PD charger for much less than
what the phone manufacturers charge. Sales associates at carriers and
resellers will often throw in a charger. Large etailers will often
bundle in a charger and a case.

On 1/15/2023 11:18 AM, badgolferman wrote:

<snip>

> Who told Apple I likely have the *proper* charger? If they did then they
> lied to Apple. I know no one who already bought that charger before they
> bought the phone.

That was true when you and I first bought an iPhone capable of fast
charging via USB-C PD. But by now, both you, and most other people have
acquired a fast charger and for subsequent purchases of iPhones you have
the proper charger.

Also, your experience of the sales associate throwing in a proper
charger is not unique. Many carrier stores, and resellers, have thrown
in accessories for decades, and the practice continues. When Costco had
the phone kiosks they made a big deal about including extra accessories
(now some of the kiosks are returning, but only with one carrier).

It's important to use realistic numbers when comparing costs, not prices
that most people are not foolish enough to pay. Few phone buyers that
walk into a carrier store are paying MSRP for a phone, they're taking
advantage of the various and endless discounts and promotions. If you
condition the purchase on them throwing in a charger then they'll do
that, unless they are somehow supply-constrained like for the iPhone 14
Pro Max. In the document "Realistic Total Cost of Ownership—iPhone
Versus Android"
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BUZuX-i1set7ktS4lbfGBmzdiCLAoOKfqp0ZSOrZlhk>
I use only realistic costs based on carrier and reseller prices, and
trade-in and resale values that are what are actually offered by
manufacturers, carriers, and resellers.

Apple actually reduced the price of their 20W charger from $29 to $19
back in 2020, apparently realizing that many phone purchasers were
opting for much less expensive, after-market, chargers from Amazon, Best
Buy, etc.
<https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/14/apple-reduces-price-of-accessories-not-included-in-iphone-12-box>.

My friend recently purchased one of the phones in my document (Samsung
A53 5G). The reseller included a USB-C PD charger, a USB-C car charger,
and a case, as well as a year of service with 24GB of data. She paid
substantially less than what Samsung sells the same device for with none
of that extra stuff included (I included this in the document "Realistic
Total Cost of Ownership—iPhone Versus Android" at
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BUZuX-i1set7ktS4lbfGBmzdiCLAoOKfqp0ZSOrZlhk>).

It's like car prices (at least pre-pandemic). Few buyers would go into a
dealer and pay MSRP (or higher). Last time we bought a car, a Toyota
Corolla LE, was in 2017, helping one of the child-units who had just
graduated from college. We got five quotes, between $13,676 and $15,910.
None of the quotes were even close to invoice ($18,557), let alone MSRP
($20,044) (see <https://i.imgur.com/KQXA2Ec.jpeg>). Perhaps someone was
foolish enough to pay MSRP and also pay for the worthless add-ons that
the dealer tries to sell, but hopefully not too many people.

On 1/15/2023 7:16 AM, badgolferman wrote:

<snip>

> Why place a cable in the box that I can't use without purchasing a new
> $30 power supply?

Apple charges $19 for a 20W charger, see
<https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MHJA3AM/A/20w-usb-c-power-adapter>.
Best Buy charges $9.99, see
<https://www.bestbuy.com/site/insignia-20-w-usb-c-wall-charger-white/6449025.p?skuId=6449025>.
A reliable USB-C 20W charger, including a USB-C to Lightning cable, is
$7.99 from AliExpress
<https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804936110222.html>. Questionable
brands from questionable vendors are under $2, but with AliExpress you
really don't want to buy from a vendor with below a 96% satisfaction
rating and that has not sold at least 100 of the item.

I think that it's time to stop complaining about this. It's over. Apple
saved over $6 billion by not including chargers
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10607077/Apple-makes-EXTRA-5billion-no-longer-providing-chargers-earphones-new-iPhones.html>.
The real solution you should advocate for is to pass a similar law to
Brazil's law, but this is unlikely
<https://9to5mac.com/2022/11/24/brazil-seizes-iphones-retail-stores-charger-requirement/>.

SMS used his or her keyboard to write :

> That was true when you and I first bought an iPhone capable of fast
> charging via USB-C PD. But by now, both you, and most other people have
> acquired a fast charger and for subsequent purchases of iPhones you have
> the proper charger.

If you're one person, you bought the phone first, and then the charger.

If you're two people, you bought the first phone and the charger, but the
Apple or Samsung charger only has one hole, so you can't share but people
don't share chargers anyway so it wouldn't matter if it had more holes.

Even with multiple holes, people don't all live in the same bedroom.

If a second person buys the second phone, they buy a new charger for them.
If you're three people, then you need a third charger with another phone.

How you can say otherwise isn't right.

> It's important to use realistic numbers when comparing costs, not prices
> that most people are not foolish enough to pay.

I bought all my accessories at the store that I bought the phone from.
The sales people are very helpful and most people need/heed their advice.

> Few phone buyers that
> walk into a carrier store are paying MSRP for a phone, they're taking
> advantage of the various and endless discounts and promotions.

No. You're wrong. You are immune to bickering. But most people are not.
Most people don't wrangle. They walk into a store and buy what they need.

The salesperson is trained to walk them through the entire purchase.
How you can say they're not trained to do exactly that isn't right.

> If you
> condition the purchase on them throwing in a charger then they'll do
> that, unless they are somehow supply-constrained like for the iPhone 14
> Pro Max.

Your claim that everyone is getting the charger for free is not right.

Try to walk into your local Costco to "condition them" into giving you the
charger for the phone for free. Let us know how that works out for you.

Then try it at Target. Best Buy. Call up Amazon and ask them too.
What you're saying isn't right and you shouldn't be saying it.

> I use only realistic costs based on carrier and reseller prices, and
> trade-in and resale values that are what are actually offered by
> manufacturers, carriers, and resellers.

You made up a fictitious survey that bears no relation to reality.
Most people walk into the store & buy whatever salespeople recommend.

> It's like car prices (at least pre-pandemic). Few buyers would go into a
> dealer and pay MSRP (or higher).

You are again making up a fictitious scenario that isn't right.

It's misleading for you to compare with cars because new cars are not
purchased like phones are purchased. There is an expected bargaining.

For you to make that deceptive comparison is not right.

> Last time we bought a car, a Toyota
> Corolla LE, was in 2017, helping one of the child-units who had just
> graduated from college. We got five quotes, between $13,676 and $15,910.
> None of the quotes were even close to invoice ($18,557), let alone MSRP

If you continue with this nonsensical car analogy it reveals your cunning.

You can't realistically compare buying a phone and a charger to buying a
car as the process is designed from the start to be completely different.

It's an underhanded fraudulent comparison using your own fancy footwork.

> ($20,044) (see <https://i.imgur.com/KQXA2Ec.jpeg>). Perhaps someone was
> foolish enough to pay MSRP and also pay for the worthless add-ons that
> the dealer tries to sell, but hopefully not too many people.

You have no idea how most smartphones and accessories are store bought.
People walk into the store and get what the salespeople recommend they buy.

They don't go through all the squabbling you have to go through in order to
get a few dollars off the price of the charger and cables that they need.

FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> SMS used his or her keyboard to write :
>
>> That was true when you and I first bought an iPhone capable of fast
>> charging via USB-C PD. But by now, both you, and most other people have
>> acquired a fast charger and for subsequent purchases of iPhones you have
>> the proper charger.
>
> If you're one person, you bought the phone first, and then the charger.
>
> If you're two people, you bought the first phone and the charger, but the
> Apple or Samsung charger only has one hole, so you can't share but people
> don't share chargers anyway so it wouldn't matter if it had more holes.
>
> Even with multiple holes, people don't all live in the same bedroom.
>
> If a second person buys the second phone, they buy a new charger for them.
> If you're three people, then you need a third charger with another phone.
>
> How you can say otherwise isn't right.
>
>> It's important to use realistic numbers when comparing costs, not prices
>> that most people are not foolish enough to pay.
>
> I bought all my accessories at the store that I bought the phone from.
> The sales people are very helpful and most people need/heed their advice.
>
>> Few phone buyers that
>> walk into a carrier store are paying MSRP for a phone, they're taking
>> advantage of the various and endless discounts and promotions.
>
> No. You're wrong. You are immune to bickering. But most people are not.
> Most people don't wrangle. They walk into a store and buy what they need.
>
> The salesperson is trained to walk them through the entire purchase.
> How you can say they're not trained to do exactly that isn't right.
>
>> If you
>> condition the purchase on them throwing in a charger then they'll do
>> that, unless they are somehow supply-constrained like for the iPhone 14
>> Pro Max.
>
> Your claim that everyone is getting the charger for free is not right.
>
> Try to walk into your local Costco to "condition them" into giving you the
> charger for the phone for free. Let us know how that works out for you.
>
> Then try it at Target. Best Buy. Call up Amazon and ask them too.
> What you're saying isn't right and you shouldn't be saying it.
>
>> I use only realistic costs based on carrier and reseller prices, and
>> trade-in and resale values that are what are actually offered by
>> manufacturers, carriers, and resellers.
>
> You made up a fictitious survey that bears no relation to reality.
> Most people walk into the store & buy whatever salespeople recommend.
>
>> It's like car prices (at least pre-pandemic). Few buyers would go into a
>> dealer and pay MSRP (or higher).
>
> You are again making up a fictitious scenario that isn't right.
>
> It's misleading for you to compare with cars because new cars are not
> purchased like phones are purchased. There is an expected bargaining.
>
> For you to make that deceptive comparison is not right.
>
>> Last time we bought a car, a Toyota
>> Corolla LE, was in 2017, helping one of the child-units who had just
>> graduated from college. We got five quotes, between $13,676 and $15,910.
>> None of the quotes were even close to invoice ($18,557), let alone MSRP
>
> If you continue with this nonsensical car analogy it reveals your cunning.
>
> You can't realistically compare buying a phone and a charger to buying a
> car as the process is designed from the start to be completely different.
>
> It's an underhanded fraudulent comparison using your own fancy footwork.
>
>> ($20,044) (see <https://i.imgur.com/KQXA2Ec.jpeg>). Perhaps someone was
>> foolish enough to pay MSRP and also pay for the worthless add-ons that
>> the dealer tries to sell, but hopefully not too many people.
>
> You have no idea how most smartphones and accessories are store bought.
> People walk into the store and get what the salespeople recommend they buy.
>
> They don't go through all the squabbling you have to go through in order to
> get a few dollars off the price of the charger and cables that they need.
>

I agree with everything you said. sms may enjoy comparison shopping and
even be good at it, but most people won’t go to the efforts he does. They
want to get what they want and get it over with. Salespeople know this and
are trained to “help” them get what they want right there in the store.

On 1/16/2023 7:16 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
> SMS used his or her keyboard to write :
>
>> That was true when you and I first bought an iPhone capable of fast
>> charging via USB-C PD. But by now, both you, and most other people
>> have acquired a fast charger and for subsequent purchases of iPhones
>> you have the proper charger.
>
> If you're one person, you bought the phone first, and then the charger.
>
> If you're two people, you bought the first phone and the charger, but the
> Apple or Samsung charger only has one hole, so you can't share but people
> don't share chargers anyway so it wouldn't matter if it had more holes.
>
> Even with multiple holes, people don't all live in the same bedroom.
>
> If a second person buys the second phone, they buy a new charger for them.
> If you're three people, then you need a third charger with another phone.
>
> How you can say otherwise isn't right.
>
>> It's important to use realistic numbers when comparing costs, not
>> prices that most people are not foolish enough to pay.
>
> I bought all my accessories at the store that I bought the phone from.
> The sales people are very helpful and most people need/heed their advice.

That depends on the area of the country you're from. In Silicon Valley,
very few people need a salesperson's advice on how to buy a USB-C charger.

>
>> Few phone buyers that walk into a carrier store are paying MSRP for a
>> phone, they're taking advantage of the various and endless discounts
>> and promotions.
>
> No. You're wrong. You are immune to bickering. But most people are not.
> Most people don't wrangle. They walk into a store and buy what they need.

It's not wrangling. These are heavily advertised promotions by the
carriers. The "free" or discounted phones combine 0% financing with
monthly bill credits in order to lock the user to the carrier, in
essence a contract without calling it a contract.

> The salesperson is trained to walk them through the entire purchase.
> How you can say they're not trained to do exactly that isn't right.

Never said that.

>> If you condition the purchase on them throwing in a charger then
>> they'll do that, unless they are somehow supply-constrained like for
>> the iPhone 14 Pro Max.
>
> Your claim that everyone is getting the charger for free is not right.

Never claimed that.

> Try to walk into your local Costco to "condition them" into giving you the
> charger for the phone for free. Let us know how that works out for you.

It wasn't necessary to do anything. The one time I bought phones from
the Costco kiosk, it was back when chargers were included by the
manufacturer, but they did include other accessories like a car charger
and a case. They also waived activation fees.

On 1/16/2023 1:44 AM, SMS wrote:

> Perhaps someone was foolish enough to pay MSRP and also pay for the
> worthless add-ons that the [car] dealer tries to sell, but hopefully
> not too many people.

For me it's hopefully that many people WILL pay MSRP and get MANY
add-ons. That gives the dealer more profit and allows them more leeway
to accept my dickered price. I walked out one time and they called me
back the next morning to accept my offer. Course that was before the
pandemic and shortages. Nowadays they'd probably tell me to shove it...

In article <tq3t7v$f1j$1@gioia.aioe.org>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> That depends on the area of the country you're from. In Silicon Valley,
> very few people need a salesperson's advice on how to buy a USB-C charger.

there are plenty of non-geeks in the valley and plenty of geeks
elsewhere. any difference will be minor.

sms used his or her keyboard to write :

> That depends on the area of the country you're from. In Silicon Valley,
> very few people need a salesperson's advice on how to buy a USB-C charger.

That's not right. Plenty of people everywhere are landscapers, plumbers,
cleaning people, grandmothers, librarians, cashiers, moms & caretakers.

Your claim these people don't buy at the stores in any given area is
deceitful since butchers & bakers & candlestick makers exist all over.

Not everyone in any area has the desire to ceaselessly wrangle like you do.
That's why the salespeople exist to help these people choose what to buy.

>>> Few phone buyers that walk into a carrier store are paying MSRP for a
>>> phone, they're taking advantage of the various and endless discounts
>>> and promotions.
>>
>> No. You're wrong. You are immune to bickering. But most people are not.
>> Most people don't wrangle. They walk into a store and buy what they need.
> It's not wrangling. These are heavily advertised promotions by the
> carriers. The "free" or discounted phones combine 0% financing with
> monthly bill credits in order to lock the user to the carrier, in
> essence a contract without calling it a contract.

You don't seem to be aware of how people buy smartphones (in any town).

You first claimed that you need to "pre-condition" store personnel to gift
a charger and then you have the rude gall to claim that's not wrangling?

To "condition" the cashier at Target to gift you the charger is wrangling.

>> The salesperson is trained to walk them through the entire purchase.
>> How you can say they're not trained to do exactly that isn't right.
>
> Never said that.

Your suggestion you can "pre-condition" either a salesperson or a cashier
at Best Buy, Target, Costco, Walmart or wherever is called wrangling.

You may love the bickering and squabbling involved, but most people don't.
Most people go into the store to ask a trained salesperson what to buy.

>>> If you condition the purchase on them throwing in a charger then
>>> they'll do that, unless they are somehow supply-constrained like for
>>> the iPhone 14 Pro Max.
>>
>> Your claim that everyone is getting the charger for free is not right.
>
> Never claimed that.

Then put the real price of the Apple or Samsung branded charger in the doc.
Because that's what most people will buy at the store when buying a phone.

>> Try to walk into your local Costco to "condition them" into giving you the
>> charger for the phone for free. Let us know how that works out for you.
>
> It wasn't necessary to do anything. The one time I bought phones from
> the Costco kiosk, it was back when chargers were included by the
> manufacturer, but they did include other accessories like a car charger
> and a case. They also waived activation fees.

Your suggestion to "pre-condition" the cashier at Best Buy or Costco or
Walmart or Target or at Amazon Customer Support might work for you.

But most people go to the store & buy the phone & accessories available.
Anything else you put in your Google doc is fictitious & not realistic.

I'm not going to beat this to death as I've said what was needed to say.